Riotwatch

[Tommy Wiseau]

Oh, good, since I started typing that response, Ian Tomlinson has become a 'scumbag'.

 

FFS.

[Boris]

Thats your problem! The evidence you (and everybody) saw was a cop pushing a guy who was obstructing him. If that is murder then I'm glad you are not a judge. It doesn't really matter that he had been there for over two hours getting wide with the Police - at the end of it all he was shoved and fell over. If you Boris pushed someone on the way out from Tynie and he fell over then died you would not be charged with murder. Assault or possibly manslaughter. Yet you go for murder I presume because he was a Police Officer.

 

You probably mean that I don't work for the CPS, rather than being a Judge, but that's just splitting hairs...

 

As I said, your the first person I know to have mentioned this and, as I said previously, I can only conclude on the information I have.

 

I think your Tynecastle analogy is slightly absurd as I doubt I'd be pushing someone with a riot truncheon, or indeed pushing someone at all.

[I.J]

Thats your problem! The evidence you (and everybody) saw was a cop pushing a guy who was obstructing him. If that is murder then I'm glad you are not a judge. It doesn't really matter that he had been there for over two hours getting wide with the Police - at the end of it all he was shoved and fell over. If you Boris pushed someone on the way out from Tynie and he fell over then died you would not be charged with murder. Assault or possibly manslaughter. Yet you go for murder I presume because he was a Police Officer.

 

Harwood has been charged with manslaughter, so there's no really a "possibly" about it.

[deesidejambo]

 

Folk don't just go rioting without deeper root causes and issues, though. I think it would be a huge mistake to ignore those causes and issues and simply go on as before. There's always a "why" and imo without trying to solve the issues at the heart of the "why", we will always be one step away from times like these.

 

 

 

I would agree with you if indeed they were rioting for a cause. But this wasn't. It was opportunistic stealing under cover of a "cause".

 

My view is that rioting is a legitimate action and is common throughout history. For example the Arab spring riots are intended to achieve political change. The looting in London was to nick Plasma TVs. One could be argued to be legitimate expression of public anger, the other is simple theft.

[Boris]

Interesting in that Darcus Howe is a slavering relic whose divisive rhetoric illustrates the kinds of attitudes we need to see the back of in today's society - "have some respect for an old West Indian *****"; how about, "have some respect for a fellow citizen"?

 

Interesting in that the BBC are so out of touch that they decided this relic would be the ideal person to comment on these riots.

 

Interesting in that the BBC reporter did not have the foggiest who he was and was so antagonistic and disrespectful the 'interview' degenerated into farce.

 

Don't think anyone came out of that at all well.

 

I thought Darcus Howe came across alright. There were obvious problems re the delay in the questions, but the BBC person was terrible!

 

Really confrontational and antagonistic, with flawed logic all the way through!

[deesidejambo]

You probably mean that I don't work for the CPS, rather than being a Judge, but that's just splitting hairs...

 

As I said, your the first person I know to have mentioned this and, as I said previously, I can only conclude on the information I have.

 

I think your Tynecastle analogy is slightly absurd as I doubt I'd be pushing someone with a riot truncheon, or indeed pushing someone at all.

 

 

But your contention is that pushing someone over is murder, implying intent to kill. That is whats absurd.

[shaun.lawson]

I thought Darcus Howe came across alright. There were obvious problems re the delay in the questions, but the BBC person was terrible!

 

Really confrontational and antagonistic, with flawed logic all the way through!

 

I thought Darcus Howe came across like an offensive joke. Comparing this to Syria is precisely that: an offensive joke.

 

Our government's going around murdering anyone who doesn't lick its boots, is it?

 

Ridiculous.

[Boris]

But your contention is that pushing someone over is murder, implying intent to kill. That is whats absurd.

 

 

Well, perhaps.

 

Had the roles been reversed I wonder what the "cop killer" would've been charged with?

[Boris]

I thought Darcus Howe came across like an offensive joke. Comparing this to Syria is precisely that: an offensive joke.

 

Our government's going around murdering anyone who doesn't lick its boots, is it?

 

Ridiculous.

 

I think he was drawing an analogy bewteen a globally restless youth. Slightly stretching the point? Perhaps.

 

Of course you could argue that our Government(s) are/have been going around murdering people. Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq....

[Tommy Wiseau]

I would agree with you if indeed they were rioting for a cause. But this wasn't. It was opportunistic stealing under cover of a "cause".

 

My view is that rioting is a legitimate action and is common throughout history. For example the Arab spring riots are intended to achieve political change. The looting in London was to nick Plasma TVs. One could be argued to be legitimate expression of public anger, the other is simple theft.

 

 

Again, this is a post which misses the point. No, they are not rioting for a cause, I don't think anyone has claimed they are (other than some rioters). That doesn't mean there are no root causes or issues which need to be explored.

 

Just because there were thousands of looters in the LA Riots in '92 doesn't mean that there weren't (and aren't) massive social and economic issues in the Los Angeles projects, and political issues in the wider borough, state and nation, that required attention.

 

 

I thought Darcus Howe came across alright. There were obvious problems re the delay in the questions, but the BBC person was terrible!

 

Really confrontational and antagonistic, with flawed logic all the way through!

 

No argument from me that BBC Newsreader wins the battle of the bangers. But I do think that the last thing we needed was a guy who imo is somewhat stuck in the past drawing racial lines on the events, when it is a far more complex problem than that. Plus, calling it "insurrection" and drawing comparisons to Syria etc was just off the chain batshit crazy.

[Boris]

off the chain batshit crazy.

 

 

Wonderful!

 

Aye, perhaps he was stretching a point a bit...I still think he made some valid points.

[Jamhammer]

I am old enough to remember Brixton and Bristol in 1980 and they were, undoubtedly political acts from a section of society hounded by the police and with no recourse.

 

I'm quite prepared to admit that the initial bother in Tottenham was a result of the shooting Mark Duggan but, I'm sorry robbing Foot Locker and mobile phone shops are not political acts. Robbing injured people in the street is not a political act. These folk aren't fighting an enemy they are robbing shops and destroying communities. Their actions are indefensible. I know there are folk on here who have problems with the Police, and the Met in particular and their experiences with the police are obviously different from mine but these aren't anti - police "riots". To compare what is happening here to the middle east uprisings is nowt short of an insult to those struggling there for democracy. Jeez I sound more like me dad everyday but this country is going to the f'n dogs.

[shaun.lawson]

I think he was drawing an analogy bewteen a globally restless youth. Slightly stretching the point? Perhaps.

 

Of course you could argue that our Government(s) are/have been going around murdering people. Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq....

 

Not in the UK, Boris.

 

What do I think about all this? I think those involved are disgusting scum who deserve everything they'll have coming to them. That may or may not include new legislation which finally empowers the police to tackle youngsters doing things like this: many of them have done this because they know most of them will get away with it.

 

What started in Tottenham last week was political. What's happened since hasn't been political at all: it's been copycat violence and looting by yobs and hooligans. There's no point trying to analyse specifically that: there's no motive to it, other than kids seeing others doing it and fancying a bit of it for themselves.

 

But that said... last year, I worked on the general election campaign in Islington. Islington has many plush areas - but also a whole bunch of staggeringly deprived ones. And the tower blocks which sprawl across the whole place are just unbelievable. Not only that, but inside, they're ******* terrifying. There's no lighting, graffiti is everywhere, staircases stink of urine - and the vast majority of us wouldn't last five minutes inside one of those things.

 

Yet we expect thousands and thousands and thousands to live inside them for their entire lives: inside something which is from another world. Gangs and drug dealers rule them; the authorities gave up decades ago. If you grow up living in such an area, you live by your wits; and if you grow up in such an area with no role models, no father, and the authorities treating you like shit every time you come into contact with any of them, what's likely to happen?

 

1. You'll lose any concept of right and wrong.

 

2. Because society's treated you like shit, you won't feel like you owe society a single thing. In fact, you'll probably hate it.

 

Of course, there are exceptions: a good number of them. More power to the elbow of anyone who makes a success of their lives from a background like this. But most human beings need help and support: they don't need their government attacking them at every turn and removing the few things they have left.

 

Does this explain what's happened over the last week? No: as I said, there's essentially no motive to it at all. But this is a lost generation: neglected, abandoned, stigmatised. The thing about the underclass is we effectively pretend to ourselves that it somehow doesn't exist. But it does: and with every passing generation, its behaviour gets worse. So what are we going to do about it?

[Patrick Bateman]

If there's anything watching television has taught me, it's that anyone pranked/caught out by Chris Morris deserves nothing but contempt and derision. Darcus Howe falls into that category. His remarks yesterday were frankly embarrassing and I'm quite surprised at the number of people who think they have any value beyond the comedic.

[deesidejambo]

Well, perhaps.

 

Had the roles been reversed I wonder what the "cop killer" would've been charged with?

 

Exactly the same. To be charged with murder you would have to establish that the attacker intended the victim to die. In either case pushing someone would b eextremely unlikely to be viewed as an intent to kill. It doesn't matter whether one of them is a Police Officer.

 

Anyway I think we must agree to differ -

 

You think the Cop is a murderer. I'd say he shoved a guy along and sadly the guy died but there was no intent to kill.

 

You conclude that the Police in the recent shooting were "wrong" without hearing exactly what went on. My view is wait till the investigation is complete, especially the testimony of the cab driver, before making an interpretation.

 

An you think the riots are legitimate protests against the Police. I go with opportunistic criminal looting.

 

As an interesting aside I am going to the Spurs match this weekend. Do you want me to get you a Plasma TV while I'm down there? 20 quid in the pubs around White Hart Lane I hear. You could call it "legitimate spoil" of your war against the Police.

[Tommy Wiseau]

Shaun gets it. Great post.

[Jamhammer]

Shaun gets it. Great post.

Yep, pretty much spot on.

[deesidejambo]

But this is a lost generation: neglected, abandoned, stigmatised. The thing about the underclass is we effectively pretend to ourselves that it somehow doesn't exist. But it does: and with every passing generation, its behaviour gets worse. So what are we going to do about it?

 

Neuter them?

[Mr. T]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm

 

01:00 onwards.

 

Morons...

[BoJack Horseman]

I think you've got the right stick, but at the wrong end.

 

First of all, how many people on here have committed a criminal act in their days, convicted or not? I'd bet (conservatively) upwards of 90% - use of recreational drugs, traffic offences, shoplifting as a youngster, underage drinking, illegal downloading, etc etc etc. Now, I am aware that you may have a specific definition in mind for your "criminal acts", and you may dispute some or all of my list - that's malum in se and malum prohibitum for you, if you believe in the distinction. The point remains though, that it is simplistic to say "I bet they're all criminals of some kind", just as it is simplistic to disregard the entire thing as "mindless criminality".

 

Yes, the acts are criminal, yes they are unjustifiable and inexcusable, yes these people have no regard for the law and yes they are done with no thought or concern for others. Folk don't just go rioting without deeper root causes and issues, though. I think it would be a huge mistake to ignore those causes and issues and simply go on as before. There's always a "why" and imo without trying to solve the issues at the heart of the "why", we will always be one step away from times like these.

 

I see your point. I fall into all the categories you listed bar the traffic offences, I don't drive, but I would not consider myself a criminal, no. I was thinking about more serious 'criminal acts'. Ok, to clarify;

 

It's in my opinion, as in I have absolutely zero justifiable evidence, that the majority of the rioters, the ones that are looting, would have no qualms with committing the same act if it was just them and 3 of their pals. There will be a few who have been caught up in the mob mentality and would normally not even entertain the idea of committing acts of arson and robbery, of course.

 

If the riots started in Edinburgh, would you join in? Do you know anyone that would? You probably do know a few that would and I'd hazard a guess as to why you'd believe those people to be the kind that would get involved. I'd also hazard a guess that the people that come to mind aren't the type that feel hard done by by the government but rather the type of people who have no problem committing serious crimes.

 

Struggling to get my point across, I'm sure you know what I mean though.

[Boris]

Not in the UK, Boris.

 

What do I think about all this? I think those involved are disgusting scum who deserve everything they'll have coming to them. That may or may not include new legislation which finally empowers the police to tackle youngsters doing things like this: many of them have done this because they know most of them will get away with it.

 

What started in Tottenham last week was political. What's happened since hasn't been political at all: it's been copycat violence and looting by yobs and hooligans. There's no point trying to analyse specifically that: there's no motive to it, other than kids seeing others doing it and fancying a bit of it for themselves.

 

But that said... last year, I worked on the general election campaign in Islington. Islington has many plush areas - but also a whole bunch of staggeringly deprived ones. And the tower blocks which sprawl across the whole place are just unbelievable. Not only that, but inside, they're ******* terrifying. There's no lighting, graffiti is everywhere, staircases stink of urine - and the vast majority of us wouldn't last five minutes inside one of those things.

 

Yet we expect thousands and thousands and thousands to live inside them for their entire lives: inside something which is from another world. Gangs and drug dealers rule them; the authorities gave up decades ago. If you grow up living in such an area, you live by your wits; and if you grow up in such an area with no role models, no father, and the authorities treating you like shit every time you come into contact with any of them, what's likely to happen?

 

1. You'll lose any concept of right and wrong.

 

2. Because society's treated you like shit, you won't feel like you owe society a single thing. In fact, you'll probably hate it.

 

Of course, there are exceptions: a good number of them. More power to the elbow of anyone who makes a success of their lives from a background like this. But most human beings need help and support: they don't need their government attacking them at every turn and removing the few things they have left.

 

Does this explain what's happened over the last week? No: as I said, there's essentially no motive to it at all. But this is a lost generation: neglected, abandoned, stigmatised. The thing about the underclass is we effectively pretend to ourselves that it somehow doesn't exist. But it does: and with every passing generation, its behaviour gets worse. So what are we going to do about it?

 

I think you are spot on Shaun, and I think I've said some of what you have said already.

 

Exactly the same. To be charged with murder you would have to establish that the attacker intended the victim to die. In either case pushing someone would b eextremely unlikely to be viewed as an intent to kill. It doesn't matter whether one of them is a Police Officer.

 

Anyway I think we must agree to differ -

 

You think the Cop is a murderer. I'd say he shoved a guy along and sadly the guy died but there was no intent to kill.

 

You conclude that the Police in the recent shooting were "wrong" without hearing exactly what went on. My view is wait till the investigation is complete, especially the testimony of the cab driver, before making an interpretation.

 

An you think the riots are legitimate protests against the Police. I go with opportunistic criminal looting.

 

As an interesting aside I am going to the Spurs match this weekend. Do you want me to get you a Plasma TV while I'm down there? 20 quid in the pubs around White Hart Lane I hear. You could call it "legitimate spoil" of your war against the Police.

 

Ok, I'll go with manslaughter re the Cop.

 

I don't think I have said that the Police were wrong re the shooting, however if I did I think I may have retracted it and said it was the handling of the aftermath with the family that was wrong and that the IPCC should get their bit out of the way so conclusions may be drawn.

 

And I don't think I have said anywhere that the looting is a legitimate protest against the Police either. I said the initail demo by the family of Mr Duggan was legitimate.

 

My word Mr Deeside...surely your not going to "fence" stolen goods? The very thought...

[milky_26]

Exactly the same. To be charged with murder you would have to establish that the attacker intended the victim to die. In either case pushing someone would b eextremely unlikely to be viewed as an intent to kill. It doesn't matter whether one of them is a Police Officer.

 

Anyway I think we must agree to differ -

 

You think the Cop is a murderer. I'd say he shoved a guy along and sadly the guy died but there was no intent to kill.

 

You conclude that the Police in the recent shooting were "wrong" without hearing exactly what went on. My view is wait till the investigation is complete, especially the testimony of the cab driver, before making an interpretation.

 

An you think the riots are legitimate protests against the Police. I go with opportunistic criminal looting.

 

As an interesting aside I am going to the Spurs match this weekend. Do you want me to get you a Plasma TV while I'm down there? 20 quid in the pubs around White Hart Lane I hear. You could call it "legitimate spoil" of your war against the Police.

can you pick me up a couple of ones that work

[BoJack Horseman]

Not in the UK, Boris.

 

What do I think about all this? I think those involved are disgusting scum who deserve everything they'll have coming to them. That may or may not include new legislation which finally empowers the police to tackle youngsters doing things like this: many of them have done this because they know most of them will get away with it.

 

What started in Tottenham last week was political. What's happened since hasn't been political at all: it's been copycat violence and looting by yobs and hooligans. There's no point trying to analyse specifically that: there's no motive to it, other than kids seeing others doing it and fancying a bit of it for themselves.

 

But that said... last year, I worked on the general election campaign in Islington. Islington has many plush areas - but also a whole bunch of staggeringly deprived ones. And the tower blocks which sprawl across the whole place are just unbelievable. Not only that, but inside, they're ******* terrifying. There's no lighting, graffiti is everywhere, staircases stink of urine - and the vast majority of us wouldn't last five minutes inside one of those things.

 

Yet we expect thousands and thousands and thousands to live inside them for their entire lives: inside something which is from another world. Gangs and drug dealers rule them; the authorities gave up decades ago. If you grow up living in such an area, you live by your wits; and if you grow up in such an area with no role models, no father, and the authorities treating you like shit every time you come into contact with any of them, what's likely to happen?

 

1. You'll lose any concept of right and wrong.

 

2. Because society's treated you like shit, you won't feel like you owe society a single thing. In fact, you'll probably hate it.

 

Of course, there are exceptions: a good number of them. More power to the elbow of anyone who makes a success of their lives from a background like this. But most human beings need help and support: they don't need their government attacking them at every turn and removing the few things they have left.

 

Does this explain what's happened over the last week? No: as I said, there's essentially no motive to it at all. But this is a lost generation: neglected, abandoned, stigmatised. The thing about the underclass is we effectively pretend to ourselves that it somehow doesn't exist. But it does: and with every passing generation, its behaviour gets worse. So what are we going to do about it?

 

Nicely put Shaun.

 

First post I've seen given the political reasons for the behaviour but not using it as an excuse for the behaviour.

[deesidejambo]

My word Mr Deeside...surely your not going to "fence" stolen goods? The very thought...

 

Thety are not stolen. They are, ahem, collateral damage from the proleteriat war against the elite and therefore it is legitimate to buy them in a pub in Hackney. 30 quid tops. OK 40 then.

 

Power to the people! Right on.

[shaun.lawson]

Neuter them?

 

 

Here's what I think has to be done:

 

1. Massively stiffer penalties for crimes such as this.

 

2. More prisons and much more capacity.

 

3. Far more powers for the police to deal with extreme events such as these.

 

4. Prisons to combine discipline and rehabilitation in a way they presently do not - because they're under-resourced and over-capacity.

 

4. Massively more effort made in funding social services and early intervention schemes. The last I heard, 50% of children taken into care end up in prison. That is a national disgrace, and one which has very serious consequences for all of us.

 

5. If young people without qualifications can't find work after six months, they either have to go back to school or college, do some form of community based work, or lose their benefits. If nothing else, community work schemes would give them some form of real work experience, get them used to getting up in the mornings and living a structured day, and ensure their CVs aren't rejected by employers out of hand. It'd also begin to involve them in working with and on behalf of their communities. Give them a stake in society, in other words.

 

6. Those tower blocks I mentioned have to be knocked down, and new, modern, safer estates built instead.

 

7. More funding for schools, especially in deprived areas.

 

8. More funding for schemes such as Sure Start, which the government is disgracefully making cuts from.

 

9. More incentives provided which enable and encourage social enterprises such as Kids Company to be set up. These are all the rage in the US; there are hardly any of them here. Why?

 

10. Better sex education in schools; and both parenting and citizenship to be taught in all schools. Parenting is the biggest responsibility anyone can ever have, with massive knock-on effects for the whole of society. Why is it not taught when we're growing up?

 

11. Parents with children under the age of 16 who stop going to school or commit anti-social crimes to face prosecution, and the prospect of having their children removed - but only if the funding I mentioned for social services is made properly available in the first place.

 

12. Far more counselling to be freely available on the NHS. Many children who grow up in these sorts of areas end up with depression or other mental illnesses; yet the waiting lists to see a counsellor or psychiatrist defy belief. This simply cannot stand. Why do we routinely ignore mental health and wellbeing in this country?

 

13. Far more funding for vocational training schemes: and this is as important for people in their 30s and 40s as for young people. It's because the former lose their jobs, can't re-train and lose all purpose and hope that their children end up in such awful circumstances - so we have to help them.

 

14. And this is the most important point of all: early intervention, and letting youngsters know their behaviour is not acceptable, has to involve all of us. Each and every one of us. If we suspect a child is being abused, far too many of us ignore it and don't get involved: why? We cannot expect government to do everything for us: society and community is about us all looking out for each other. The "I'm alright Jack", and "it's not my problem" mentalities which have been pursued for decades have been an absolute disaster: we've all played a part in creating the mess we're in now.

 

But the problem with much of the above is it costs money: lots and lots of it. So for there to be a will to truly change things, the government has to change the tax system, and cease its disgusting punish-the-poor-appease-the-bankers policies. Do we, as a society, have the will to do this? Or do we only demand change as long as someone else pays for it?

 

I'm quite convinced the above can all be done - but as long as we carry on voting for political parties who won't put our taxes up much, and as long as we all expect to continue living lives of material comfort (but what does materialism have to do with what's actually important in life? Nothing), it won't be. Meaning what we've created will only get worse.

[wibble]

Not in the UK, Boris.

 

What do I think about all this? I think those involved are disgusting scum who deserve everything they'll have coming to them. That may or may not include new legislation which finally empowers the police to tackle youngsters doing things like this: many of them have done this because they know most of them will get away with it.

 

What started in Tottenham last week was political. What's happened since hasn't been political at all: it's been copycat violence and looting by yobs and hooligans. There's no point trying to analyse specifically that: there's no motive to it, other than kids seeing others doing it and fancying a bit of it for themselves.

 

But that said... last year, I worked on the general election campaign in Islington. Islington has many plush areas - but also a whole bunch of staggeringly deprived ones. And the tower blocks which sprawl across the whole place are just unbelievable. Not only that, but inside, they're ******* terrifying. There's no lighting, graffiti is everywhere, staircases stink of urine - and the vast majority of us wouldn't last five minutes inside one of those things.

 

Yet we expect thousands and thousands and thousands to live inside them for their entire lives: inside something which is from another world. Gangs and drug dealers rule them; the authorities gave up decades ago. If you grow up living in such an area, you live by your wits; and if you grow up in such an area with no role models, no father, and the authorities treating you like shit every time you come into contact with any of them, what's likely to happen?

 

1. You'll lose any concept of right and wrong.

 

2. Because society's treated you like shit, you won't feel like you owe society a single thing. In fact, you'll probably hate it.

 

Of course, there are exceptions: a good number of them. More power to the elbow of anyone who makes a success of their lives from a background like this. But most human beings need help and support: they don't need their government attacking them at every turn and removing the few things they have left.

 

Does this explain what's happened over the last week? No: as I said, there's essentially no motive to it at all. But this is a lost generation: neglected, abandoned, stigmatised. The thing about the underclass is we effectively pretend to ourselves that it somehow doesn't exist. But it does: and with every passing generation, its behaviour gets worse. So what are we going to do about it?

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly what I said in post 1223

 

 

 

 

To survive their environment they become the animals that they are now. Everybody knows this, nobody wants to spend the money to fix the problems as it would mean knocking down thousands of squalid homes.

 

Easier to let them trash the joint once every generation. After all they caused less than 1% of the damage that Fred the Shred and his mates caused - and he got a payout and he keeps his knighthood..

[Boris]

I'm quite convinced the above can all be done - but as long as we carry on voting for political parties who won't put our taxes up much, and as long as we all expect to continue living lives of material comfort (but what does materialism have to do with what's actually important in life? Nothing), it won't be. Meaning what we've created will only get worse.

 

Welcome, Comrade.

 

[RoussetsShorts]

 

Here's what I think has to be done:

 

1. Massively stiffer penalties for crimes such as this.

 

2. More prisons and much more capacity.

 

3. Far more powers for the police to deal with extreme events such as these.

 

4. Prisons to combine discipline and rehabilitation in a way they presently do not - because they're under-resourced and over-capacity.

 

4. Massively more effort made in funding social services and early intervention schemes. The last I heard, 50% of children taken into care end up in prison. That is a national disgrace, and one which has very serious consequences for all of us.

 

5. If young people without qualifications can't find work after six months, they either have to go back to school or college, do some form of community based work, or lose their benefits. If nothing else, community work schemes would give them some form of real work experience, get them used to getting up in the mornings and living a structured day, and ensure their CVs aren't rejected by employers out of hand. It'd also begin to involve them in working with and on behalf of their communities. Give them a stake in society, in other words.

 

6. Those tower blocks I mentioned have to be knocked down, and new, modern, safer estates built instead.

 

7. More funding for schools, especially in deprived areas.

 

8. More funding for schemes such as Sure Start, which the government is disgracefully making cuts from.

 

9. More incentives provided which enable and encourage social enterprises such as Kids Company to be set up. These are all the rage in the US; there are hardly any of them here. Why?

 

10. Better sex education in schools; and both parenting and citizenship to be taught in all schools. Parenting is the biggest responsibility anyone can ever have, with massive knock-on effects for the whole of society. Why is it not taught when we're growing up?

 

11. Parents with children under the age of 16 who stop going to school or commit anti-social crimes to face prosecution, and the prospect of having their children removed - but only if the funding I mentioned for social services is made properly available in the first place.

 

12. Far more counselling to be freely available on the NHS. Many children who grow up in these sorts of areas end up with depression or other mental illnesses; yet the waiting lists to see a counsellor or psychiatrist defy belief. This simply cannot stand. Why do we routinely ignore mental health and wellbeing in this country?

 

13. Far more funding for vocational training schemes: and this is as important for people in their 30s and 40s as for young people. It's because the former lose their jobs, can't re-train and lose all purpose and hope that their children end up in such awful circumstances - so we have to help them.

 

14. And this is the most important point of all: early intervention, and letting youngsters know their behaviour is not acceptable, has to involve all of us. Each and every one of us. If we suspect a child is being abused, far too many of us ignore it and don't get involved: why? We cannot expect government to do everything for us: society and community is about us all looking out for each other. The "I'm alright Jack", and "it's not my problem" mentalities which have been pursued for decades have been an absolute disaster: we've all played a part in creating the mess we're in now.

 

But the problem with much of the above is it costs money: lots and lots of it. So for there to be a will to truly change things, the government has to change the tax system, and cease its disgusting punish-the-poor-appease-the-bankers policies. Do we, as a society, have the will to do this? Or do we only demand change as long as someone else pays for it?

 

I'm quite convinced the above can all be done - but as long as we carry on voting for political parties who won't put our taxes up much, and as long as we all expect to continue living lives of material comfort (but what does materialism have to do with what's actually important in life? Nothing), it won't be. Meaning what we've created will only get worse.

 

you could save a lot of money and hot air by simply sterilising the masses at birth. community will die out and we can start again.

[Chris Benoit]

Welcome back Shaun

[deesidejambo]

 

Here's what I think has to be done:

 

1. Massively stiffer penalties for crimes such as this.

 

2. More prisons and much more capacity.

 

3. Far more powers for the police to deal with extreme events such as these.

 

4. Prisons to combine discipline and rehabilitation in a way they presently do not - because they're under-resourced and over-capacity.

 

4. Massively more effort made in funding social services and early intervention schemes. The last I heard, 50% of children taken into care end up in prison. That is a national disgrace, and one which has very serious consequences for all of us.

 

5. If young people without qualifications can't find work after six months, they either have to go back to school or college, do some form of community based work, or lose their benefits. If nothing else, community work schemes would give them some form of real work experience, get them used to getting up in the mornings and living a structured day, and ensure their CVs aren't rejected by employers out of hand. It'd also begin to involve them in working with and on behalf of their communities. Give them a stake in society, in other words.

 

6. Those tower blocks I mentioned have to be knocked down, and new, modern, safer estates built instead.

 

7. More funding for schools, especially in deprived areas.

 

8. More funding for schemes such as Sure Start, which the government is disgracefully making cuts from.

 

9. More incentives provided which enable and encourage social enterprises such as Kids Company to be set up. These are all the rage in the US; there are hardly any of them here. Why?

 

10. Better sex education in schools; and both parenting and citizenship to be taught in all schools. Parenting is the biggest responsibility anyone can ever have, with massive knock-on effects for the whole of society. Why is it not taught when we're growing up?

 

11. Parents with children under the age of 16 who stop going to school or commit anti-social crimes to face prosecution, and the prospect of having their children removed - but only if the funding I mentioned for social services is made properly available in the first place.

 

12. Far more counselling to be freely available on the NHS. Many children who grow up in these sorts of areas end up with depression or other mental illnesses; yet the waiting lists to see a counsellor or psychiatrist defy belief. This simply cannot stand. Why do we routinely ignore mental health and wellbeing in this country?

 

13. Far more funding for vocational training schemes: and this is as important for people in their 30s and 40s as for young people. It's because the former lose their jobs, can't re-train and lose all purpose and hope that their children end up in such awful circumstances - so we have to help them.

 

14. And this is the most important point of all: early intervention, and letting youngsters know their behaviour is not acceptable, has to involve all of us. Each and every one of us. If we suspect a child is being abused, far too many of us ignore it and don't get involved: why? We cannot expect government to do everything for us: society and community is about us all looking out for each other. The "I'm alright Jack", and "it's not my problem" mentalities which have been pursued for decades have been an absolute disaster: we've all played a part in creating the mess we're in now.

 

But the problem with much of the above is it costs money: lots and lots of it. So for there to be a will to truly change things, the government has to change the tax system, and cease its disgusting punish-the-poor-appease-the-bankers policies. Do we, as a society, have the will to do this? Or do we only demand change as long as someone else pays for it?

 

I'm quite convinced the above can all be done - but as long as we carry on voting for political parties who won't put our taxes up much, and as long as we all expect to continue living lives of material comfort (but what does materialism have to do with what's actually important in life? Nothing), it won't be. Meaning what we've created will only get worse.

 

 

Well thought out comments.

 

I'd still just neuter them though. Cheaper.

[topcat]

No 1 in 1981 during riot season:

Ghost Town by the Specials

 

No 1 in 2011 during riot season:

Swagger Jagger by Cher Lloyd.

 

Says it all. Seriously. From brilliant, consciousness-raising pop to bragging, individualistic, consumerism-as-politics fluff. Something of the same could be said for the UK itself.

 

A very good point observation it it wasn't wrong.

 

Popular music of the time actually revolved around Adam Ant (9 weeks at Number One) and Shakin' Stevens (7)

 

The Brixton Riots started on 10th April 1981. The Number one single was This Ole House by Shakin Stevens but by the time they'd finished it was Making Your Mind Up by Bucks Fizz

 

There was a second wave of riots in July further north and the Specials were Number one by the end of it but when it all kicked off in Toxteth "One Day in your life" by Michael Jackson was top of the pops.

 

Ghost Town stayed at Number 1 for three weels equalling Shaddap your face.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_England_riots

http://www.number-ones.co.uk/1981-number-ones.html/date

 

6 Jan: Imagine(John Lennon), 4 weeks

3 Feb: Woman(John Lennon), 2weeks

17 Feb: Shaddap You Face(Joe Dolce Music Theatre), 3weeks

10 Mar: Jealous Guy(Roxy Music), 2weeks

24 Mar: This Ole House(Shakin Stevens), 3weeks

14 Apr: Making Your Mind Up(Bucks Fizz), 3weeks

5 May: Stand and Deliver(Adam and the Ants), 5weeks

9 Jun: Being With You(Smokey Robinson), 2weeks

23 Jun: One Day In Your Life(Michael Jackson), 2weeks

7 Jul: Ghost Town(The Specials), 3weeks

28 Jul: Green Door(Shakin Stevens), 4weeks

25 Aug: Japanese Boy(Aneka), 1 week

1 Sep: Tainted Love(Soft Cell), 2weeks

15 Sep: Prince Charming(Adam and The Ants), 4weeks

13 Oct: Its My Party(Dave Stewart and Barbara Gaskin), 4weeks

10 Nov: Every Liitle Thing She Does Is Magic(The Police), 1 week

17 Nov: Under Pressure(Queen and David Bowie), 2weeks

1 Dec: Begin The Beguine(Julio Iglesias), 1 week

8 Dec: Dont You Want Me(The Human League), 5weeks

[Private Hudson]

A very good point observation it it wasn't wrong.

 

Popular music of the time actually revolved around Adam Ant (9 weeks at Number One) and Shakin' Stevens (7)

 

The Brixton Riots started on 10th April 1981. The Number one single was This Ole House by Shakin Stevens but by the time they'd finished it was Making Your Mind Up by Bucks Fizz

 

There was a second wave of riots in July further north and the Specials were Number one by the end of it but when it all kicked off in Toxteth "One Day in your life" by Michael Jackson was top of the pops.

 

Ghost Town stayed at Number 1 for three weels equalling Shaddap your face.

 

http://en.wikipedia....1_England_riots

http://www.number-on...-ones.html/date

 

6 Jan: Imagine(John Lennon), 4 weeks

3 Feb: Woman(John Lennon), 2weeks

17 Feb: Shaddap You Face(Joe Dolce Music Theatre), 3weeks

10 Mar: Jealous Guy(Roxy Music), 2weeks

24 Mar: This Ole House(Shakin Stevens), 3weeks

14 Apr: Making Your Mind Up(Bucks Fizz), 3weeks

5 May: Stand and Deliver(Adam and the Ants), 5weeks

9 Jun: Being With You(Smokey Robinson), 2weeks

23 Jun: One Day In Your Life(Michael Jackson), 2weeks

7 Jul: Ghost Town(The Specials), 3weeks

28 Jul: Green Door(Shakin Stevens), 4weeks

25 Aug: Japanese Boy(Aneka), 1 week

1 Sep: Tainted Love(Soft Cell), 2weeks

15 Sep: Prince Charming(Adam and The Ants), 4weeks

13 Oct: Its My Party(Dave Stewart and Barbara Gaskin), 4weeks

10 Nov: Every Liitle Thing She Does Is Magic(The Police), 1 week

17 Nov: Under Pressure(Queen and David Bowie), 2weeks

1 Dec: Begin The Beguine(Julio Iglesias), 1 week

8 Dec: Dont You Want Me(The Human League), 5weeks

 

Good guy. W*nk.

[Boris]

A very good point observation it it wasn't wrong.

 

Popular music of the time actually revolved around Adam Ant (9 weeks at Number One) and Shakin' Stevens (7)

 

The Brixton Riots started on 10th April 1981. The Number one single was This Ole House by Shakin Stevens but by the time they'd finished it was Making Your Mind Up by Bucks Fizz

 

There was a second wave of riots in July further north and the Specials were Number one by the end of it but when it all kicked off in Toxteth "One Day in your life" by Michael Jackson was top of the pops.

 

Ghost Town stayed at Number 1 for three weels equalling Shaddap your face.

 

http://en.wikipedia....1_England_riots

http://www.number-on...-ones.html/date

 

6 Jan: Imagine(John Lennon), 4 weeks

3 Feb: Woman(John Lennon), 2weeks

17 Feb: Shaddap You Face(Joe Dolce Music Theatre), 3weeks

10 Mar: Jealous Guy(Roxy Music), 2weeks

24 Mar: This Ole House(Shakin Stevens), 3weeks

14 Apr: Making Your Mind Up(Bucks Fizz), 3weeks

5 May: Stand and Deliver(Adam and the Ants), 5weeks

9 Jun: Being With You(Smokey Robinson), 2weeks

23 Jun: One Day In Your Life(Michael Jackson), 2weeks

7 Jul: Ghost Town(The Specials), 3weeks

28 Jul: Green Door(Shakin Stevens), 4weeks

25 Aug: Japanese Boy(Aneka), 1 week

1 Sep: Tainted Love(Soft Cell), 2weeks

15 Sep: Prince Charming(Adam and The Ants), 4weeks

13 Oct: Its My Party(Dave Stewart and Barbara Gaskin), 4weeks

10 Nov: Every Liitle Thing She Does Is Magic(The Police), 1 week

17 Nov: Under Pressure(Queen and David Bowie), 2weeks

1 Dec: Begin The Beguine(Julio Iglesias), 1 week

8 Dec: Dont You Want Me(The Human League), 5weeks

 

Curse you Stats boy!!!!

 

[maroonlegions]

Here is a video of an alleged BBC interview with a man who witnessed a beating by police of a 16year old girl that he believes lead to the ignition of the Tottenham riots;ML;

 

 

 

Scrubbed By Corporate Media - Explosive Live BBC Interview With A Man Who Witnessed The Police Beating 16 Of A Year Old Girl That Sparked The London Riot Violence As It Happened.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyxRnD-DnNw

 

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Here is some more information below on these sad circumstances;ML;

 

 

Video of girl being beaten:

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/07/report-police-beating-girl-16-sparked-london-riot-violence-spreads-2nd-night-51391/

 

 

Daily Mail Report on Girl Being Beaten:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023254/Tottenham-riot-Mark-Duggan-shooting-sparked-police-beating-girl.html

 

 

UK Residents - How To Get Around Government Censorship Of YouTube Videos.

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/05/20/tutorial-government-censorship-youtube-videos-22842/

 

[Nicholas Brody]

So because she was a girl she cant be dealt with the same way as a 16 year old laddie throwing rocks at police

[¼½¾]

She was probably throwing them underarm or something.

[BoJack Horseman]

So because she was a girl she cant be dealt with the same way as a 16 year old laddie throwing rocks at police

 

Don't think she was flinging rocks though.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Don't think she was flinging rocks though.

 

Um....

 

)Eyewitnesses tell UK newspapers that the originally peaceful protests in turned violent after a 16 year girl threw a rock or some other object at the police.

[BoJack Horseman]

Um....

 

If that is the very same 16 year old then I stand corrected. Listening to the eye witness report he said she confronted the police verbally and then was hit with batons.

[Nicholas Brody]

Got a bit heated there on sky news with the father of one of the guys that died last night. Think some Muslim guys were trying to stir up a bit of trouble but I could be wrong.

[maroonlegions]

 

Found some more info, this time on the investigation into the killing of Mark Duggan by the Independent Police Complaints Commission,(IPCC), a police firearms officer APPARENTLY FIRED FIRST;These investigation's are continuing into December this year but what has so far been made available is in its self revealing;ML;

QUOTE;'The probe was launched into the death of Mark Duggan, 26, who sustained injuries in a shooting spree by armed officers in Ferry Lane in Tottenham last Thursday, after police stopped the minicab he was in to carry out an arrest as part of a pre-planned operation. Ballistic tests indicated that Duggan did not fire at officers before he was killed. There is "no evidence" that a handgun found at the scene where Mark Duggan was killed by armed officers was used, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) stated.???????

 

Investigations confirmed that Duggan's death came after two shots were fired by a Scotland Yard CO19 firearms officer.'

 

 

LINK;

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193178.html

 

 

[fabienleclerq]

It's not the best video tbh, you cant see whats going on and what she did!

 

Only thing conclusive is "it's a feckin girl you counts!!"

[Scotland]

It's not the best video tbh, you cant see whats going on and what she did!

 

Only thing conclusive is "it's a feckin girl you counts!!"

 

They should have battered that other lassie for having SUCH an annoying voice

[kingantti1874]

Hey ML, they found Osama yet? Or is he on the spaceship with elvis? Sorry I'm being a dick but no conspiracies here- just a bunch of thieving wankers - with regard to duggan, whether the gun was fired or not is irrelevant, if he was carrying a gun he was a bad ******* and the world is better off without him

[Nicholas Brody]

Folk that stand on their phones behind live TV reports waving at the camera deserve to be jailed.

[fabienleclerq]

They should have battered that other lassie for having SUCH an annoying voice

True, incompetant policing strikes again..

[fabienleclerq]

Folk that stand on their phones behind live TV reports waving at the camera deserve to be jailed.

No chance its quality!! have you seen the one where the guy keeps marching past!!

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

Great open letter to Mr Cameron

 

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/

[Guest C00l K1d]

Anyone know whats happening in edinburgh?

 

My dad just seen about a dozen police transits with lights flashing driving towards princes st

[super_vlad]

Got a bit heated there on sky news with the father of one of the guys that died last night. Think some Muslim guys were trying to stir up a bit of trouble but I could be wrong.

 

Are you for real? i thought the guy showed a great deal of dignity and called for calm! There is no way in the world i would have being that calm if my son had just died for feck all!