energy prices

[Mikey1874]

18 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Channel 4 news guy had Sturgeons mouth twitching there as he asked the questions Scottish media aren’t allowed to - like what happened to your previous promise to nationalise an energy company which would have certainly helped in the current situation ? 
Eh oh covid got in the way 

charlatan ! 

 

My understanding was that although it was a nice idea, the finances didn't work and in end it was thought it worked better to have independent companies. The independent companies that have all gone bust.

 

Some background 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58677769.amp#bsht=CgRmYnNtEgYIAxAAGAw

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.co.uk/news/four-not-profit-energy-companies-11326009.amp

 

https://www.gov.scot/policies/energy-efficiency/the-national-public-energy-agency/

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, Dazo said:

I guess at some point you need to consider not the most savoury solutions to a very drastic horrible situation. If that’s all we have then some people will have to take it. 
 

Anyway take it up with Vic this isn’t something I’m championing. 

Apologies mate. I wasn't having a go at you.

 

The whole proposed plan is horse shit and utterly stupid in the extreme.

[The Mighty Thor]

This guy gets it. 

 

It's a long read but he calls it as it actually is.

 

 

[Nucky Thompson]

4 hours ago, Victorian said:

That's that ****ed then.  Freezing prices wont help according to the junta.  

 

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-freezing-energy-bills-wont-help-worst-off-households-says-minister-12680291

 

I think they want to target the people who need help the most.

 

Freezing prices would also help rich people who can afford to pay

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Apologies mate. I wasn't having a go at you.

 

The whole proposed plan is horse shit and utterly stupid in the extreme.

Absolutely no need to apologise Thor.

 

I think in ridiculous times there may be a place for it but yeah in normal times it’s madness. That’s what I was implying when I mentioned that people end up still paying for gas used 10 years ago. 
 

The problem is we are stuck with a government who are doing ****all so these ideas look better than they actually are. 

[dobmisterdobster]

5 hours ago, Victorian said:

That's that ****ed then.  Freezing prices wont help according to the junta.  

 

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-freezing-energy-bills-wont-help-worst-off-households-says-minister-12680291

 

 

Did you read a word of that article? I'm guessing not.

No I do not support giving £100 billion to Scottish Power and the like to subsidise wealthy people's energy bills.

[Victorian]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

This guy gets it. 

 

It's a long read but he calls it as it actually is.

 

 

 

I don't disagree with a word he says.  But by his own admission,  nationalisation of the market has absolutely no chance in hell of ever being considered by this government.  For them to take that action is the end of them.  It removes their ideological niche as the party and government of free market enterprise,  small state involvement.

 

The ideal is nationalisation.  But it's impossible before another government can take power.  The alternative is this plan,  and becomes the only and best plan by default of the impossible being the impossible.  

 

The Tories are finished for a time.  Hopefully a long time.  How they end up finished is a matter of their own choosing.  

 

But his ideal solution cannot be faulted.

[Gizmo]

7 hours ago, Victorian said:

That's that ****ed then.  Freezing prices wont help according to the junta.  

 

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-freezing-energy-bills-wont-help-worst-off-households-says-minister-12680291

 

Won't help who?

Arseholes. 

[Victorian]

16 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Won't help who?

Arseholes. 

 

There has been increasing mutterings from them about so-called targeted support.  Truss had jumped in feet first with her shite about avoiding "hand-outs" but even she,  along with a few others,  are increasingly making suggestions about targeted support towards the worst off.  Quite how that squares with Truss's continued insistence that tax cuts are going ahead?... anyone's guess.  The vast majority of tax cut pounds will not land with the worst off.

 

Spaffer is still mounting up the air miles and wont get involved anyway.  The current chancellor is not going to be the next chancellor.  The next chancellor isn't yet the next chancellor.  The last chancellor isn't going to be in the next government.  The next PM isn't even a Tory by original political inclination.  An opportunist who'll say anything,  just to move on to the next square.

[Victorian]

Oh ho but meanwhile and away from the game of pass-the-parcel on the economy...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/24/tories-offer-access-to-new-chancellor-at-3000-a-ticket-event

 

Priorities likes...

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Oh ho but meanwhile and away from the game of pass-the-parcel on the economy...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/24/tories-offer-access-to-new-chancellor-at-3000-a-ticket-event

 

Priorities likes...

They've got heating bills to pay like everyone else.

 

Oh wait! They claim it on expenses 

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

They've got heating bills to pay like everyone else.

 

Oh wait! They claim it on expenses 

 

The things to get up to when nobody's looking or cares anyway.

[That thing you do]

Cost of living so bad in UK its seen as a "humanitarian crisis"

 

And yes, it is much worse in Brexit Britain than in EU

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/britain-faces-humanitarian-crisis-energy-costs-soar-says-health-lobby-2022-08-19/

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

I don't disagree with a word he says.  But by his own admission,  nationalisation of the market has absolutely no chance in hell of ever being considered by this government.  For them to take that action is the end of them.  It removes their ideological niche as the party and government of free market enterprise,  small state involvement.

 

The ideal is nationalisation.  But it's impossible before another government can take power.  The alternative is this plan,  and becomes the only and best plan by default of the impossible being the impossible.  

 

The Tories are finished for a time.  Hopefully a long time.  How they end up finished is a matter of their own choosing.  

 

But his ideal solution cannot be faulted.

 

The interesting thing is that in practice during Covid the railways were effectively nationalised. The train companies are still being propped up with Government money. 

 

It's not necessarily a socialist solution. Sometimes it just becomes obvious. 

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The interesting thing is that in practice during Covid the railways were effectively nationalised. The train companies are still being propped up with Government money. 

 

It's not necessarily a socialist solution. Sometimes it just becomes obvious. 

 

The same would have applied if the Tories had been in power when the banks had to be effectively nationalised.  They would have done so.  The existence of the economy is entirely dependent on functioning banks.  But I believe this is different.  There would be more of an undercurrent of socialism perceived from nationalising the energy market.  Plus socialists desire it and have suggested it.  There was no option with the banks.  But there are other options (not good ones or ideal ones) here.  It would not be a good look for hard right wing capitalism to admit that hitherto socialist doctrine has saved the day.

[Jambo_jim2001]

Nationalise the lot,,one quid a share take it or leave it. 🤬🤬 Thatcher would have sold the crown jewels. 

[ri Alban]

 

[Harry Potter]

Another E- mail from British Gas, what the price cap means to you, i it means rip -off prices.

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

The same vocal group who want to support Ukraine complaining about increasing energy prices.

What did you think would happen when a major supplier of energy is sanctioned?

You really thought that doing the right thing, and it is right thing, would be painless and that government would just pick up tab while we all continued with lives as normal.

That's not how it works.

[Tommy Brown]

25 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

The same vocal group who want to support Ukraine complaining about increasing energy prices.

What did you think would happen when a major supplier of energy is sanctioned?

You really thought that doing the right thing, and it is right thing, would be painless and that government would just pick up tab while we all continued with lives as normal.

That's not how it works.

 

fair enough to an extent.

What about the massive billions in extra profit for the big boys?

They are doing well, does that seem right to you?

[The Mighty Thor]

21 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

The same vocal group who want to support Ukraine complaining about increasing energy prices.

What did you think would happen when a major supplier of energy is sanctioned?

You really thought that doing the right thing, and it is right thing, would be painless and that government would just pick up tab while we all continued with lives as normal.

That's not how it works.

Not a major supplier of energy to the UK though.

 

Germany, which is virtually wholly reliant on the gas coming through Nordstream 1,  has not experienced anything like the price increases the mugs in the UK that swallow the type of easily identifiable nonsense that you've swallowed will be facing.

 

Why would that be?

 

It's got very little to do with Ukraine and very much to do with a failed government being led around by the tinkle by businesses who keep them in power.  

 

Johnson's holiday speech yesterday obviously ticked your boxes but not your critical thinking. 

[Harry Potter]

1 minute ago, Tommy Brown said:

 

fair enough to an extent.

What about the massive billions in extra profit for the big boys?

They are doing well, does that seem right to you?

Aye the big profits seem to go over some folks heads, beyond me, rip off end off.

Folk blaming the sources of gas and elect, the energy lot are making the prices up with profits.

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Not a major supplier of energy to the UK though.

 

Germany, which is virtually wholly reliant on the gas coming through Nordstream 1,  has not experienced anything like the price increases the mugs in the UK that swallow the type of easily identifiable nonsense that you've swallowed will be facing.

 

Why would that be?

 

It's got very little to do with Ukraine and very much to do with a failed government being led around by the tinkle by businesses who keep them in power.  

 

Johnson's holiday speech yesterday obviously ticked your boxes but not your critical thinking. 

Another PR visit celebrating a country’s independence.

How laughable is that.

“We’ve to endure the fuel bill pain to defeat Putin.”

What an excuse he is for a Human Being.

Edited August 25, 2022 by The Real Maroonblood

[Jeffros Furios]

32 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

The same vocal group who want to support Ukraine complaining about increasing energy prices.

What did you think would happen when a major supplier of energy is sanctioned?

You really thought that doing the right thing, and it is right thing, would be painless and that government would just pick up tab while we all continued with lives as normal.

That's not how it works.

What a fud .

[Victorian]

12 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Another PR visit celebrating a country’s independence.

How laughable is that.

“We’ve to endure the fuel bill pain to defeat Putin.”

What an excuse he is for a Human Being.

 

This.

 

What a hideous thing to say.  Projecting himself forward as the spokesman for an entire nation of impoverished people.  All content to bear the cost of someone else's struggle.  Albeit every sympathy to them.

 

A grotesque human being who is about to become very wealthy.  Speaking on our behalf that we will endure the hardship.

 

**** off and a lot worse Spaffer.

[Victorian]

23 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Not a major supplier of energy to the UK though.

 

Germany, which is virtually wholly reliant on the gas coming through Nordstream 1,  has not experienced anything like the price increases the mugs in the UK that swallow the type of easily identifiable nonsense that you've swallowed will be facing.

 

Why would that be?

 

It's got very little to do with Ukraine and very much to do with a failed government being led around by the tinkle by businesses who keep them in power.  

 

Johnson's holiday speech yesterday obviously ticked your boxes but not your critical thinking. 

 

This as well.  European governments are doing what they can to keep a lid on the carnage.  We don't have a government.  We have parasitic captors.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

This as well.  European governments are doing what they can to keep a lid on the carnage.  We don't have a government.  We have parasitic captors.

There was a brilliant phrase I just heard from a journalist on LBC;

 

'Johnson's speech yesterday blaming Russia was an alibi for his own governments inaction' 

 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

16 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I think they want to target the people who need help the most.

 

Freezing prices would also help rich people who can afford to pay

So effing what?

 

The price cap is ridiculous, this "government" are beneath contempt.

[Victorian]

So that's CF Fertilisers ceasing operations again.  Due to unsustainable process energy cost.

 

CFF is a critical,  national interest source of carbon dioxide with no alternative domestic source.  The CO2 it produces has application throughout the food and leisure industries.  A hell of a lot of the economy is reliant on it.

 

This is the kind of commercial pressure that might eventually bounce the junta into some real action.

[Unknown user]

5 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

So effing what?

 

The price cap is ridiculous, this "government" are beneath contempt.

 

That's the ****ing Tories all over - they'd rather not help people than accidentally help those they deem undeserving.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

25 minutes ago, Victorian said:

So that's CF Fertilisers ceasing operations again.  Due to unsustainable process energy cost.

 

CFF is a critical,  national interest source of carbon dioxide with no alternative domestic source.  The CO2 it produces has application throughout the food and leisure industries.  A hell of a lot of the economy is reliant on it.

 

This is the kind of commercial pressure that might eventually bounce the junta into some real action.

 

Is that the same factory that caused a panic a few years back when they......can't remember what it was exactly.

Pubs would have no beer and package food would disappear of the shelves as CO2 extended the life of food, and I seem to recall there were lots of medical uses as well, yeh the list went on and on and on.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

6 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

The same vocal group who want to support Ukraine complaining about increasing energy prices.

What did you think would happen when a major supplier of energy is sanctioned?

You really thought that doing the right thing, and it is right thing, would be painless and that government would just pick up tab while we all continued with lives as normal.

That's not how it works.

Must be brutal watching your beloved party going down quicker that a hibees sisters knickers!

[Victorian]

9 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Is that the same factory that caused a panic a few years back when they......can't remember what it was exactly.

Pubs would have no beer and package food would disappear of the shelves as CO2 extended the life of food, and I seem to recall there were lots of medical uses as well, yeh the list went on and on and on.

 

It's the last remaining source of byproduct CO2 that supplies those sectors.  The government recently caved into supporting them to keep producing fertiliser in order to maintain the CO2 supply.  There will be BIG problems if this goes tits up now.

[Dazo]

46 minutes ago, Victorian said:

So that's CF Fertilisers ceasing operations again.  Due to unsustainable process energy cost.

 

CFF is a critical,  national interest source of carbon dioxide with no alternative domestic source.  The CO2 it produces has application throughout the food and leisure industries.  A hell of a lot of the economy is reliant on it.

 

This is the kind of commercial pressure that might eventually bounce the junta into some real action.

 

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's the last remaining source of byproduct CO2 that supplies those sectors.  The government recently caved into supporting them to keep producing fertiliser in order to maintain the CO2 supply.  There will be BIG problems if this goes tits up now.

Something doesn’t quite add up there. The only domestic source for a product that several huge industries rely on is in danger of going under ? 

[The Mighty Thor]

10 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's the last remaining source of byproduct CO2 that supplies those sectors.  The government recently caved into supporting them to keep producing fertiliser in order to maintain the CO2 supply.  There will be BIG problems if this goes tits up now.

 

The answer will be; the markets will decide, there's nothing we can do. It's capitalism.

 

wibble. wibble. wibble. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

22 minutes ago, Psychedelicropcircle said:

Must be brutal watching your beloved party going down quicker that a hibees sisters knickers!

Fair comment.

[Victorian]

8 minutes ago, Dazo said:

 

Something doesn’t quite add up there. The only domestic source for a product that several huge industries rely on is in danger of going under ? 

 

Pretty much.  It's foreign owned and they have indicated in the past that they are content to postpone operations due to excess costs.  Not actually go out of business.  Yes,  it's a critical source with no apparent alternative.  

 

The super duper free market is supposed to always provide competition and redundancy.  Not here it seems.  The champions of the free market dogma seem to have dropped the ball again.

[Victorian]

10 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

The answer will be; the markets will decide, there's nothing we can do. It's capitalism.

 

wibble. wibble. wibble. 

 

They pretty much said the above today.

[Cade]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Pretty much.  It's foreign owned and they have indicated in the past that they are content to postpone operations due to excess costs.  Not actually go out of business.  Yes,  it's a critical source with no apparent alternative.  

 

The super duper free market is supposed to always provide competition and redundancy.  Not here it seems.  The champions of the free market dogma seem to have dropped the ball again.

 

There is no such thing as a free market.

The amount of subsidies for various sectors is vast.

Don't let them tell you it's a free market, because it's not.

[Victorian]

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

There is no such thing as a free market.

The amount of subsidies for various sectors is vast.

Don't let them tell you it's a free market, because it's not.

 

Sorry,  I should have said the dogma of free market.  

 

Subsidy is going to be required here.  Soon in other areas of private enterprise.  Soon enough the whole of private business will be demanding similar support.

 

But here's an idea.  The government could simply arrive at the conclusion that all energy must be capped.  Now.  At a sensible cost.  That it inevitably runs right through the fabric of society like a stick of rock.  The entire economy is reliant on energy remaining affordable.

 

Over to the junta for what?  A 1p cut on income tax and a £100 hardship payment for the poor... and the wealthy anaw mind.

[Jambof3tornado]

23 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

I think they want to target the people who need help the most.

 

Freezing prices would also help rich people who can afford to pay

How rich is rich though??? I dont have a massive house or mortgage but there's 2 incomes coming in, we should be able to keep up with our bills........both paying taxes and national insurance etc so why shouldnt we get help? Is the help just for the lazy bitch across the road who has 3 kids under 8 to 3 dads has never worked a day in her life and gets money thrown at her hand over fist!?!

[Dazo]

32 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Pretty much.  It's foreign owned and they have indicated in the past that they are content to postpone operations due to excess costs.  Not actually go out of business.  Yes,  it's a critical source with no apparent alternative.  

 

The super duper free market is supposed to always provide competition and redundancy.  Not here it seems.  The champions of the free market dogma seem to have dropped the ball again.

Sounds more like self sabotage from foreign owners. I’m not talking about profiteering and Nobody likes it but surely you simply raise prices to cover your costs. Speak to your customers who I am pretty sure themselves will be aware of these extra costs that this will hopefully be temporary. 

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Sounds more like self sabotage from foreign owners. I’m not talking about profiteering and Nobody likes it but surely you simply raise prices to cover your costs. Speak to your customers who I am pretty sure themselves will be aware of these extra costs that this will hopefully be temporary. 

 

Not really.  The CO2 byproduct is more critical than the process.  The plant makes fertiliser as it's primary process.  The CO2 is an extra commodity.  But the fertiliser is the commodity that makes the plant viable.  Commercial energy of high process consumption is making it unsustainable.  There is a natural limit on any commodity as to how expensive it becomes before it affects demand such that you can't sell enough to be viable.  Not every cost increase can be easily passed on without fundamentally harming the entire business model.  Your business fails or you mothball it if you can.

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

The same vocal group who want to support Ukraine complaining about increasing energy prices.

What did you think would happen when a major supplier of energy is sanctioned?

You really thought that doing the right thing, and it is right thing, would be painless and that government would just pick up tab while we all continued with lives as normal.

That's not how it works.

What you talking about. Scotland has enough of everything, but we are still paying excessive prices. Billions of profit for BP, She'll and the others. Oh to be part of the UK.

[dobmisterdobster]

7 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

So effing what?

 

The price cap is ridiculous, this "government" are beneath contempt.

 

Picture this. It would cost approx £100 billion of taxpayer money to subsidise a price cap freeze for three years.

 

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

That's the ****ing Tories all over - they'd rather not help people than accidentally help those they deem undeserving.

 

Some of you do zero research. You just want to be angry at things.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Sky News/Ipsos poll just released makes very disturbing reading.

A third of households on average earnings (£35k) are already having difficulty paying their energy bills over the last 3 months, and this is before the new price rises are announced tomorrow, those on lower earnings it's even higher than a third.

 

Looking at the results of this poll and if it's representitive of the country as a whole, it really doesn't make good reading at all, and the most worrying thing is that this is the summer and people are struggling, I dread to think what'll happen when winter comes.

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-one-third-of-households-already-struggling-to-pay-energy-bills-even-without-next-price-cap-hike-12680589

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Some of you do zero research. You just want to be angry at things.

 

Research into the Tories are *****? Is there a library I can go to?

 

If you're not angry at this lot you need to hire a detective to find your soul.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Sky News/Ipsos poll just released makes very disturbing reading.

A third of households on average earnings (£35k) are already having difficulty paying their energy bills over the last 3 months, and this is before the new price rises are announced tomorrow, those on lower earnings it's even higher than a third.

 

Looking at the results of this poll and if it's representitive of the country as a whole, it really doesn't make good reading at all, and the most worrying thing is that this is the summer and people are struggling, I dread to think what'll happen when winter comes.

https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-one-third-of-households-already-struggling-to-pay-energy-bills-even-without-next-price-cap-hike-12680589

 

£35k and people are facing trouble ffs 

 

And let's not forget, universal credit, £4k a year.

 

How little do human beings mean to these people?

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

£35k and people are facing trouble ffs 

 

And let's not forget, universal credit, £4k a year.

 

How little do human beings mean to these people?

Many of those struggling are clearly overspending or overstretching elsewhere. I’d imagine these were already just getting by so anything extra would tip them over the edge. People really need to live within their means and not keep up with the neighbours or friends. 

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Many of those struggling are clearly overspending or overstretching elsewhere. I’d imagine these were already just getting by so anything extra would tip them over the edge. People really need to live within their means and not keep up with the neighbours or friends. 

 

Agree with this to an extent.  That covers a section of people who do have some scope to economise,  make better decisions,  be more frugal.  I believe it's an alien concept to people though.  It's probably difficult for people to accept that they havea personal responsibility to manage their finances in a way that is different to how they have become accustomed to.  They work,  they get paid,  they have money to spend as they choose.  Some other people get state support... you can see where I'm going.

 

I have no sympathy for anyone who cannot accept that they can comfortably survive after a few choices.  We need to imagine ourselves in the situation of people who wont have any scope to make ends meet.  If you can then it's easy to decide where any sympathy should lie.