Should Scotland be an independent country?

[jambo89]

 

On 30/06/2022 at 18:27, Japan Jambo said:

 

Bond holders will have entered into contracts with the UK government and they would naturally be unwilling to have a slug of this apportioned to a counterparty with no previous repayment history (at least without a premium) so leaving the counterparties as is makes sense.

 

If you don't characterise a bilateral agreement to make payments for an agreed amount of time as a debt how would you represent it? The article contradicts itself.

 

 

Only quoting you as am still catching up with this thread, but there has been a lot of talk about 'debt' and what is owed etc. This has been posted before, but is worth viewing for an alternative take.

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

 

Only quoting you as am still catching up with this thread, but there has been a lot of talk about 'debt' and what is owed etc. This has been posted before, but is worth viewing for an alternative take.

 

Thank you for posting, even ignoring all the sums, I've been going on about our continuator status not being liable for any UK debt for years.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I'd disagree. If, by some leap of the imagination, the Tory candidate was the best one for you in your area and an all-round good person, I still doubt you'd vote for him/her because of what you perceive to be the general Tory folk not being your cuppa lapsang souchong.

 

The more I read/talk with some of the indy fans, the more it puts me off being part of their 'movement'.

Nope, I wouldn't vote for them because we're ideologically opposed.

[Roxy Hearts]

9 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Fair play, that's a different angle. 

 

I just doubt there would be such continued high support for independence if Starmer and his bunch won in London. I do think that the Scotland/Labour relationship if probably irreparably fractured.

I'm an ex Labour voter and Starmer, Ian Murray and Sarwar really are a bunch of detached, loathsome characters. I will never vote Labour again due to charlatans like them.   

 

They offer absolutely nothing but "SNP bad" and are not strong enough against a puerile Tory party that's nearly as bad as Thatcher's awfulness.

 

The UK is a great place but politically fractured and we need to move I've away from it IMO.

[XB52]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

So to confirm the storage technology isn't ready or proven and is it even cost effective?

 

The argument here is on the fallback technology if you refuse to consider nuclear. That would be required immediately not in 30-50 years for an approach where renewables supply the whole grid.

Sorry but you're making things up now. How does Scotland power itself at the moment? However we do it, we will continue the same after independence in the short to medium term. Oil/gas and yes, even existing nuclear will not disappear the day after we are independent

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

Against independence because arseholes exist?

No, quite clearly no-one saying that

 

Just try not to be Nazis about it

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

No, quite clearly no-one saying that

 

Just try not to be Nazis about it

 

If you're genuine about the debate, just ignore the extreme views mate. This is only a good thread as long as all that stuff gets a body swerve.

[Ray Gin]

Brilliant stuff here from the Daily Express   
 

Scotland facing Exodus of Companies after independence plans

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1633425/scotland-nicola-sturgeon-Scottish-independence-locational-marginal-pricing-renewable-energ

 

But....

 

"Will Move to Scotland" - UK facing Exodus after Sturgeon unveils independence plan

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1632419/uk-scotland-sturgeon-independence-locational-marginal-pricing-energy

 

 

[jambo89]

On 01/07/2022 at 10:46, Nookie Bear said:

 

An economic disaster kicked off by a Scottish bank, lest we forget.

You should watch a movie all about the economic crisis you mentioned called 'The Big Short".

 

Steve Carrel plays Sir Fred Goodwin and Ryan Gosling plays David Cameron. Totally desgustang how scottish banks are even still allowed to operate!

 

21 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I’ve been quite open about being pro-union but will readily admit the status quo right now is not very appealing.  However, I really do want to know the answers to the big questions and not just to be difficult and to push ‘project fear’ I really want to know the potential impact for me and my family.  What currency will we use, what is the definitive position on pensions, what will happen with the border with England our biggest trade partner, what will be the cost of meeting EU joining obligations? I have a young family, in no world do I risk their futures on a wing and prayer.  After 8 years the fact I don’t know the answer to those big issues tells you why support doesn’t get above the 45%.  
 

In relation to the rather unexpected GE pledge from Nicola Sturgeon.  For me that’s simple, the message from Labour in Scotland would be to unite and finally remove the hated Tories.  Given there’s been no meaningful movement on Indy in years the SNP knew lots of their voters may be tempted on this occasion to side with Labour and give the hated Tories the heave ho.  It could have rendered the SNP almost irrelevant as the whole mandate for indy manifesto has been done to death.  It’s certainly a good move in that they won’t be irrelevant this time but, if they end up with less than 50% of the total vote, that will be thrown back at them for years as being the second decisive rejection of indy and gives UK govt even more power to say no to an official referendum.  It’s a bold gamble she’s gone for to be sure. 

Re the bit in bold, the answer should (and I sincerely hope) be our own currency. I've posted above a previous video from Richard Murphy (economics policy advisor) regarding debt, but went down the Youtube rabbit hole and watched this reagrding currency.

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by jambo89

[Roxy Hearts]

5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Can't argue with you re the need to move away from the SQ. Whether that's independence or some remodelling of the UK, I'm less fussed about.

 

For me, your beef with the Labour Party is not too dissimilar to the SNP's 'Tory bad' mantra.

 

I like Murray because of what he did with FoH/HMFC and also on a couple of personal matters. Starmer seems well-intentioned but hamstrung by the remnants of Momentum and just how unelectable Corbyn made them. Perhaps the biggest criticism I could make of Sarwar is that, had you not mentioned him, I'd have struggled to name the current SLab leader without Google's help. All parties contain good and bad eggs. I'd abolish and ban 'em all if it were up to me. 

The problem with Labour is they don't stand for anything and appear to represent nothing. I think all Westminster parties are a bad as each other. If the SNP can't argue their case against any of them and win over the undecided then we're in big trouble. It's not all down to them but they are the biggest bloc for independence.

[Unknown user]

28 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

In other words, you vote for the party, not the candidate? Fair play, I think many, if not most, do. But it doesn't do any harm to check out a candidate's voting record on certain matters before dismissing them because of the colour of their rosette, surely?

 

I don't vote Tory because I don't support Tory views.

I also didn't vote SNP in the local elections.

 

But this isn't about me and it isn't adding anything to the debate Should Scotland be independent?

 

Of course Scotland should be independent, why on earth shouldn't it be?

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

I don’t think she can control people anymore than ann budge can control hearts fans. Some people are just dicks. 
I see inflaming tweets from unionists politicians, like everything it’s a two way street with both sides blaming the other.

Youve got to ignore the 🤡🤡

I think the debate would be a lot more measured if it was Starmer or some other politician who isn't a fascist gangster in No.10. Her timing is deliberate and quite frankly inflammatory. 

[Dawnrazor]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

Of course Scotland should be independent, why on earth shouldn't it be?

Because the questions haven't been answered in an effective enough way to convince enough people to vote Yes, if the SNP could do this there shouldn't be a problem.

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

If you're genuine about the debate, just ignore the extreme views mate. This is only a good thread as long as all that stuff gets a body swerve.

Ignoring extremism will take everyone to a place they don't want to be. Needs calling out and stamped out when it is seen. 

[Hmfc1965]

52 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

The problem with Labour is they don't stand for anything and appear to represent nothing. I think all Westminster parties are a bad as each other. If the SNP can't argue their case against any of them and win over the undecided then we're in big trouble. It's not all down to them but they are the biggest bloc for independence.

The problem for the SNP is it's all based on jam tomorrow assuming independence but with no facts behind it.

[il Duce McTarkin]

7 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Not when it comes to extremist views they aren't. Bullies should be called out. 

 

Meh. He's not a bully, just an occasional slaver, which is his right.

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

The problem for the SNP is it's all based on jam tomorrow assuming independence but with no facts behind it.

Search out your own facts too. Independence isn't about the SNP. I've never liked the way the UK is heading since the years of Thatcher and we can better serve ourselves. We have the resources and infrastructure. Up to you.....

[Dawnrazor]

38 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

 Independence isn't about the SNP.

It absolutely is, I've read this before and have never agreed with it, the SNP are the only road to independence, if they can't make the argument convincing it'll never happen as no other party is campaigning for it, it's all about the SNP.

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

Sorry but you're making things up now. How does Scotland power itself at the moment? However we do it, we will continue the same after independence in the short to medium term. Oil/gas and yes, even existing nuclear will not disappear the day after we are independent

 

Nuclear pal.  Which is due to be decommissioned.  As I said its end of life so serious cash needs invested pronto.

 

I await your apology.

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Ignoring extremism will take everyone to a place they don't want to be. Needs calling out and stamped out when it is seen. 

I don’t think he’s about to start a Paisley Republican Army or wage a bombing campaign on the mainland. He’s generally alright I think you’ll be safe enough. 
Im not entirely innocent myself at times☺️

[jambo89]

15 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It absolutely is, I've read this before and have never agreed with it, the SNP are the only road to independence, if they can't make the argument convincing it'll never happen as no other party is campaigning for it, it's all about the SNP.

 

Independence in and of itself is not about the SNP though. They may be the main vehicle to deliver a referendum, but independence is nothing to do with the SNP

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, jambo89 said:

 

Independence in and of itself is not about the SNP though. They may be the main vehicle to deliver a referendum, but independence is nothing to do with the SNP

Sorry, no, they're not the "main vehicle" but the only one, they basically are independence in and for Scotland. 

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

 

Independence in and of itself is not about the SNP though. They may be the main vehicle to deliver a referendum, but independence is nothing to do with the SNP

 

It is.  What is the vote percentage for the other indy parties?

[jambo89]

4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Sorry, no, they're not the "main vehicle" but the only one, they basically are independence in and for Scotland. 

Of course they are the 'main vehicle' for a referendum, but they are not the only party to support it, and independence is not only about SNP. There was Labour for independence groups, NHS for independence groups, a whole cross section of society was either for or against indeopendence. These people were for independence, not the SNP and the 2 are not as intertwined as you suggest

[Roxy Hearts]

25 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

It absolutely is, I've read this before and have never agreed with it, the SNP are the only road to independence, if they can't make the argument convincing it'll never happen as no other party is campaigning for it, it's all about the SNP.

Independence for me is about Scotland and the people who live here. Choosing our own governments and voting them out  also producing policies better suited to our needs. 

 

Of course the SNP are a vehicle to get there and I did state earlier they are the largest "bloc" and need to do more convincing for some. I don't need them to convince me.  

[jambo89]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It is.  What is the vote percentage for the other indy parties?

About 7%, what's your point?

[Hmfc1965]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Search out your own facts too. Independence isn't about the SNP. I've never liked the way the UK is heading since the years of Thatcher and we can better serve ourselves. We have the resources and infrastructure. Up to you.....

I don't like the way the UK is heading either but I'm far from convinced of the economic case for independence.

I also don't like this SNP government. 

You're right in theory they should ne redundant come independence but you just know they'll say we need a period of stability etc before calling any elections. 

I also believe they'll continue after independence. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

12 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I don’t think he’s about to start a Paisley Republican Army or wage a bombing campaign on the mainland. He’s generally alright I think you’ll be safe enough. 
Im not entirely innocent myself at times☺️

He probably wouldn't but there are enough nutters on both sides of the debate who wouldn't need much encouragement. For what it's worth I think we are more likely to see more of the scenes like those you posted rather than paramilitary violence. Still very, very unpleasant and both sides need to be really mindful of the hand grenades they are lobbing at the hard of thinking

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

I don't like the way the UK is heading either but I'm far from convinced of the economic case for independence.

I also don't like this SNP government. 

You're right in theory they should ne redundant come independence but you just know they'll say we need a period of stability etc before calling any elections. 

I also believe they'll continue after independence. 

They will have to call an election within a relatively short period. I'm sure they discussed it previously. For all their faults the SNP do actually believe in democracy. 

[XB52]

31 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Nuclear pal.  Which is due to be decommissioned.  As I said its end of life so serious cash needs invested pronto.

 

I await your apology.

 

How will Scotland power the country after 2028 if part of the UK? The exact same as it will if independent. You keep mentioning nuclear but there will be no new nuclear stations in Scotland, independent or not, so I just don't get your point at all. 

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

I don't like the way the UK is heading either but I'm far from convinced of the economic case for independence.

I also don't like this SNP government. 

You're right in theory they should ne redundant come independence but you just know they'll say we need a period of stability etc before calling any elections. 

I also believe they'll continue after independence. 

They may possibly continue if we achieve independence but at least we'll have the choice to vote them out and pick a party that has policies for the economy, NHS, education, infrastructure etc. 

 

All the parties will put forward manifestos for Scotland and Scotland only and that's the crux for me. Our choice, our responsibility.

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Search out your own facts too. Independence isn't about the SNP. I've never liked the way the UK is heading since the years of Thatcher and we can better serve ourselves. We have the resources and infrastructure. Up to you.....

So brexit wasn't about the tories then ? Or was it ?

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

So brexit wasn't about the tories then ? Or was it ?

I never said it was. I voted for it as I thought it would hasten independence. I wish I didn't as it was a bit foolish and under estimated the stupidity of it all!

 

[frankblack]

17 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

About 7%, what's your point?

So this pish about indy not being about the SNP is exactly what I said i.e. it is all SNP.

Edited July 2, 2022 by frankblack

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I never said it was. I voted for it as I thought it would hasten independence. I wish I didn't as it was a bit foolish and under estimated the stupidity of it all!

 

 

I voted for it because it will kill it.

 

[jambo89]

Just now, frankblack said:

So this pish about indy not b3ing about the SNP is exactly what I said.

I agree, indy is not about the SNP, which is what I said initally.

 

Anyways, the point was, voting for independence is not voting for the SNP. You are voting for scotland to become an independent country. I don't see how anyone can conflate the 2.

[Dawnrazor]

19 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Independence for me is about Scotland and the people who live here. Choosing our own governments and voting them out  also producing policies better suited to our needs. 

 

Of course the SNP are a vehicle to get there and I did state earlier they are the largest "bloc" and need to do more convincing for some. I don't need them to convince me.  

I agree with your points apart from the "SNP are a vehicle" this is my entire point, there will be no independence for Scotland without a political resolution, the only party who want it are the SNP, therefore it's all about their ability to make the argument.

[Dawnrazor]

25 minutes ago, jambo89 said:

Of course they are the 'main vehicle' for a referendum, but they are not the only party to support it, and independence is not only about SNP. There was Labour for independence groups, NHS for independence groups, a whole cross section of society was either for or against indeopendence. These people were for independence, not the SNP and the 2 are not as intertwined as you suggest

We'll have to agree to disagree then 👍

[Lord Montpelier]

9 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I never said it was. I voted for it as I thought it would hasten independence. I wish I didn't as it was a bit foolish and under estimated the stupidity of it all!

 

Fair play for admitting that and your reason why  . 

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I voted for it because it will kill it.

 

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Fair play for admitting that and your reason why  . 

👍

[Roxy Hearts]

7 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I agree with your points apart from the "SNP are a vehicle" this is my entire point, there will be no independence for Scotland without a political resolution, the only party who want it are the SNP, therefore it's all about their ability to make the argument.

There are Labour, Tory and Libdem independence supporters too.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

There are Labour, Tory and Libdem independence supporters too.

And SNP voters who don't want independence, but without the SNP independence will never be delivered.

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

Because the questions haven't been answered in an effective enough way to convince enough people to vote Yes, if the SNP could do this there shouldn't be a problem.

 

We have no idea how many people are going to vote Yes.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

And SNP voters who don't want independence, but without the SNP independence will never be delivered.

I'm not disagreeing with you but it's not me that needs convinced. 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

We have no idea how many people are going to vote Yes.

We know roughly don't we.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm not disagreeing with you but it's not me that needs convinced. 

Exactly, without the SNP making a convincing argument to sway enough voters, it'll never happen, that's why, for me, independence is and always will about the SNP.

[Ked]

23 minutes ago, XB52 said:

 

How will Scotland power the country after 2028 if part of the UK? The exact same as it will if independent. You keep mentioning nuclear but there will be no new nuclear stations in Scotland, independent or not, so I just don't get your point at all. 

The only one being built in the UK is Hinkley Point c.

An absolute disaster financially .

 

I'm not anti nuclear power but Scotland is in a far superior position  in regards to future energy supply.

If we decided to build one post independence we will have the blueprint of Hinkley point as a go to on how not to do it.

 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

We know roughly don't we.

There's all sorts of campaigning, debates, media coverage, current events, Westminster making a **** of things to come over the next year+.

 

How could we possibly know how many will vote yes?

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

There's all sorts of campaigning, debates, media coverage, current events, Westminster making a **** of things to come over the next year+.

 

How could we possibly know how many will vote yes?

Ok, I'll wager, given the past vote, the history of polls, the current conversations, that'll it's far more likely to be a 49 - 51 than it is to be a 10 - 90 split.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Exactly, without the SNP making a convincing argument to sway enough voters, it'll never happen, that's why, for me, independence is and always will about the SNP.

 

And no offence, but this is why no one's trying to convince you, there's simply no point. None of us can tell the future so no one can give you the reassurance you seem to need.

 

Those guys in the middle are the ones who need to hear that Scotland's a naturally rich country with friends and goodwill across the globe and we have nothing to fear from our freedom.