Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Ray Gin]

3 minutes ago, Harry Potter said:

few tins o beans for a fiver, anyway you have based that on every person in scotland.

 

Cut it to 25% of the population if you like. £20 isn't going to go far to solving poverty for a family, is it? It's not even covering their increase in energy bills for a single month.

 

 

 

[John Findlay]

21 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

There's no reason Tories bad shouldn't be brought up all the time, it's relevant as hell, it's the reality of the alternative.

 

I understand why supporters of the union would prefer to point things in other directions though!

The reason it shouldn't be brought up constantly is simple. People will get fed up of hearing it(trust me that's beginning to happen now), and switch off.

We know the Tories are bad, so what are you going to do differently, and how are you going to do it?

These two questions are not being answered, the reason being the SNP don't know how to answer them.

[Harry Potter]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

Cut it to 25% of the population if you like. £20 isn't going to go far to solving poverty for a family, is it? It's not even covering their increase in energy bills for a single month.

 

 

 

dont get me started on energy bills, 😟, as for fuel , feel a mega rant coming on.

[Ray Gin]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm not deflecting anything, Tories Bad is relevant whether unionists like it or not.

 

Correct. If England didn't keep voting in the Tories, I think it's fair to assume that the independence movement would be dead in the water. Getting rid of those cockroaches is priority #1. Scotland hasn't voted for them since 1959.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Boab said:

I'll vote yes like the last time but I feel it's doomed to failure tbh.

They won't grant a section 30 so it will invoke all sorts of legal challenges.

That shit show will piss off an already struggling electorate with the financial implications it will incur.

Add in the predictable scaremongering that will raise it's head, like the last time, and the vote will be a no.

Hope I'm wrong but that's how I see it being played out.

The scare mongering will be even more ferocious at the next vote 

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

I think your definitely conflating a couple of issues or talking at cross purposes 
 

Govt trading on the bond markets is effectively how the govt borrows money from the financial markets. 
 

Govts trading in oil futures market is nothing to do with the govts borrowing. As I said in my previous post that is about hedging against price fluctuation. 
 

They are two very different things. 
 

I'm not even sure what your trying to ask with your final para. I can't speak for @Geoff Kilpatrick 

 

Scotland could borrow the same as any other country. What part oil plays in that is a distraction to be honest. Your borrowing against more than just oil or a single asset it’s the economy/nation as a whole. If you don't have your own currency and central bank it's becomes more challenging, albeit not impossible.
 

If we had no oil we could still borrow, it’s not oil or bust. Don’t get me wrong it’s nice to have but I’m terms of Indy I don’t get why it’s such a talking point especially in a climate where we are looking to phase it out. 

 

I've said it before on this thread. It's more about the amount of borrowing your doing as opposed to the cost of borrowing. 
 

Trading oil futures isn’t about borrowing its about hedging, The borrowing comes via bonds which is little more than a promissory note. Your not borrowing against a specific asset like morgating your house. Hedging is probably best seen as mechanism around borrowing as opposed to actual borrowing. Risk management if you like. 

Govts trade is also sorts of financial markets for a variety of reasons, when your borrowing large some it’s good to ‘influence’ certain markets to get conditions that are favourable. Bonds are where the borrowing is done though. 

 

Apologies the post is a bit disjointed trying to do three things at once and currently failing in all 

Good posting 

14 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

They don’t really have one which has always been the problem 

Yep . The domestic abuse analogy is wearing a bit thin now . Scotland wanting to leave the “ relationship “ but the abuser not letting us . The argument needs to look at the positives of Indy . The main one is , well being independent ! However I think people are scunnered by how the main Indy party have governed over the last how many years so it’s making then think what kind of governance would we have if they had full powers ! ( and also scunnered by the pitiful opposition too I may add ) 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

17 hours ago, 1971fozzy said:

Once in a generation vote ?

 

That was a lie, made up by the English.

[Unknown user]

31 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Nor are you advancing the argument one inch. 

Cheers, but I'm not trying to convince you

[Japan Jambo]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Cheers, but I'm not trying to convince you

 

👍 because you know that she won't hold one and is stringing everyone along or because I'm down here in London and therefore will be deemed not worthy of getting a say in matters pertaining to my country of birth? 

[Jambof3tornado]

3 hours ago, Boab said:

I'll vote yes like the last time but I feel it's doomed to failure tbh.

They won't grant a section 30 so it will invoke all sorts of legal challenges.

That shit show will piss off an already struggling electorate with the financial implications it will incur.

Add in the predictable scaremongering that will raise it's head, like the last time, and the vote will be a no.

Hope I'm wrong but that's how I see it being played out.

I voted no last time but would reconsider if the argument didnt come down to its us or Boris. Give me facts and show me how much better life would be if we were to rule our own destiny.

 

[Boab]

38 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Correct. If England didn't keep voting in the Tories, I think it's fair to assume that the independence movement would be dead in the water. Getting rid of those cockroaches is priority #1. Scotland hasn't voted for them since 1959.

Yip. Agree with that.

There is no doubt the Nats will go full on during campaigning saying a yes vote would sever us from those criminals.

What the state of the place is come voting will bear heavily on the outcome.

[Hansel]

100 percent yes

[henryheart]

2 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

I think your definitely conflating a couple of issues or talking at cross purposes 
 

Govt trading on the bond markets is effectively how the govt borrows money from the financial markets. 
 

Govts trading in oil futures market is nothing to do with the govts borrowing. As I said in my previous post that is about hedging against price fluctuation. 
 

They are two very different things. 
 

I'm not even sure what your trying to ask with your final para. I can't speak for @Geoff Kilpatrick 

 

Scotland could borrow the same as any other country. What part oil plays in that is a distraction to be honest. Your borrowing against more than just oil or a single asset it’s the economy/nation as a whole. If you don't have your own currency and central bank it's becomes more challenging, albeit not impossible.
 

If we had no oil we could still borrow, it’s not oil or bust. Don’t get me wrong it’s nice to have but I’m terms of Indy I don’t get why it’s such a talking point especially in a climate where we are looking to phase it out. 

 

I've said it before on this thread. It's more about the amount of borrowing your doing as opposed to the cost of borrowing. 
 

Trading oil futures isn’t about borrowing its about hedging, The borrowing comes via bonds which is little more than a promissory note. Your not borrowing against a specific asset like morgating your house. Hedging is probably best seen as mechanism around borrowing as opposed to actual borrowing. Risk management if you like. 

Govts trade is also sorts of financial markets for a variety of reasons, when your borrowing large some it’s good to ‘influence’ certain markets to get conditions that are favourable. Bonds are where the borrowing is done though. 

 

Apologies the post is a bit disjointed trying to do three things at once and currently failing in all 

 

I may have missed it being discussed but the amount (and cost) of any borrowing is influenced by your credit rating. The UK has a very strong credit rating, whereas Scotland hasn't for obvious reasons. This will make it very difficult and possibly very expensive, at least in the short term, to take easing action and control economic factors that impact greatly on the ability to spend on education and health, for example, and can be used to try and manage inflation. I think the uncomfortable reality is becoming ever more apparent to the SNP leadership. Sturgeon has admitted that an independent Scotland will not necessarily be a better place 'but we will be able to make our own decisions', while both Forbes and Swinney have in recent months admitted that an independent Scotland would face at least a decade of austerity.   

 

I appreciate that amongst some there is an 'it will be alright on the night' approach to independence, but there are some harsh realities out there that will have much greater impacts on our day to day lives than the stupidity that is Brexit.   

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

That was a lie, made up by the English.

It was in the Scottush Govt whitepaper

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Correct. If England didn't keep voting in the Tories, I think it's fair to assume that the independence movement would be dead in the water. Getting rid of those cockroaches is priority #1. Scotland hasn't voted for them since 1959.

Independence is the land of milk and honey or it isn’t. If it’s such a good idea for Scotland why does it matter who is in power at UK level ? 
 

And that is the problem, the whole movement is obsessed with fault finding and finger pointing at the UK government. No ideas, no ambition or strategy and year after year of snp government’s making Scotland worse means no credibility. 
 

If the snp put as much effort into making Scotland better as they do into blaming the Tories Independence would be a shoe in. 

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 hour ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

That was a lie, made up by the English.

Haha belter it was in the white paper 🤡

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

Independence is the land of milk and honey or it isn’t. If it’s such a good idea for Scotland why does it matter who is in power at UK level ? 
 

And that is the problem, the whole movement is obsessed with fault finding and finger pointing at the UK government. No ideas, no ambition or strategy and year after year of snp government’s making Scotland worse means no credibility. 
 

If the snp put as much effort into making Scotland better as they do into blaming the Tories Independence would be a shoe in. 

 

 

If the UK wasn't such a shitshow and it was politically aligned with Scotland, there would be far less reason to leave. Hope this helps.

[Dazo]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

If the UK wasn't such a shitshow and it was politically aligned with Scotland, there would be far less reason to leave. Hope this helps.

Pretty much in line with the whole movement Ray, not a shred of substance. 👍

[hughesie27]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Independence is the land of milk and honey or it isn’t. If it’s such a good idea for Scotland why does it matter who is in power at UK level ? 
 

And that is the problem, the whole movement is obsessed with fault finding and finger pointing at the UK government. No ideas, no ambition or strategy and year after year of snp government’s making Scotland worse means no credibility. 
 

If the snp put as much effort into making Scotland better as they do into blaming the Tories Independence would be a shoe in. 

 

They've got a lot of work to do but the SNP are blatantly better at running the show than the UK Gov.

They spend millions ensuring shite like the bedroom tax etc isn't enforced to Scottish homes. 

[Dazo]

Just now, hughesie27 said:

They've got a lot of work to do but the SNP are blatantly better at running the show than the UK Gov.

They spend millions ensuring shite like the bedroom tax etc isn't enforced to Scottish homes. 

Being the best poo in the potty saying springs to mind.
 

I’m pretty sure a JKB committee would do a better job than the current UK government. 😂

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

This will go under the category of posts I regret, however, I’m in a pondering mood and waiting about,
 

I’m one of the few posters on this thread that is undecided. I voted no last time but I have no ideological basis for that.  I essentially voted on what I thought would be best for me and mine. 
 

I’ve certainly become much more open to Indy, primarily due to our removal from the EU. In someways I feel the same about the EU as I do about the UK. 
 

I found it attractive being able to work, travel across most of Europe and if I’m honest philosophically speaking I don’t see myself all that different from Manuel in Spain. We face the same challenges and largely have the same aspirations in the grand scheme of things. I felt there was great benefit working together towards common goals. The world is a very small place nowadays. 
 

That is probably similar reasons why I feel there is a lot of sense in the UK. We’re a tiny island in real terms and the issues we face are pretty much the same. The fact that I’m born on some side of an imaginary line that that was put their for some random reason hundreds of year ago matters not a jot to me.
 

I have as much in common with Michael from Birmingham as I do Scott from Paisley. 
 

For me it’s not really, where born that brings commonality. It’s values, beliefs, aspirations etc. 
 

Im not nationalistic, in the slightest, so all the flag waving arguments give me the boak; from both side. I don’t get the attachment to a flag be it a Union Jack or saltire tbqfhwy, especially when it’s little more than an accident if birth. 
 

Leaving the EU has defo made me more pro Indy. I also think some of the economic arguments around it have changed due to this. If there was a time to leave and start a fresh, it wouldn’t be bad timing either🤷🏻‍♂️ (If done correctly) 
 

I don’t really see Indy the same way as many others. To me it’s just about a system of governance so most the arguments on this board seem irrelevant to me. 
 

I’m probably leaning more towards leaving nowadays but until it’s really back on the cards it’s not something I give much thought to. 
 

I’m amazed by the passion, hypocrisy, hyperbole and idiocy it brings about from the most impassionaied supporters though.  Probably the best thing about this debate tbh. 
 

 

 

Nothing to regret there. 
Well thought out and reasoned post. 
I’d say that if you mentioned you were going the other way too. It’s the we’ll aw be skint fur decades, she’ll fire up taxes aw oor the shoap, WW3 that get me reacting badly😂😂it’s just baseless, fear mongering drivel. Again it goes both ways I’m aware. 
Occasionally some decent posts appear though and this is one. 
If there was a “like” option I’d have done that instead. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

This will go under the category of posts I regret, however, I’m in a pondering mood and waiting about,
 

I’m one of the few posters on this thread that is undecided. I voted no last time but I have no ideological basis for that.  I essentially voted on what I thought would be best for me and mine. 
 

I’ve certainly become much more open to Indy, primarily due to our removal from the EU. In someways I feel the same about the EU as I do about the UK. 
 

I found it attractive being able to work, travel across most of Europe and if I’m honest philosophically speaking I don’t see myself all that different from Manuel in Spain. We face the same challenges and largely have the same aspirations in the grand scheme of things. I felt there was great benefit working together towards common goals. The world is a very small place nowadays. 
 

That is probably similar reasons why I feel there is a lot of sense in the UK. We’re a tiny island in real terms and the issues we face are pretty much the same. The fact that I’m born on some side of an imaginary line that that was put their for some random reason hundreds of year ago matters not a jot to me.
 

I have as much in common with Michael from Birmingham as I do Scott from Paisley. 
 

For me it’s not really, where born that brings commonality. It’s values, beliefs, aspirations etc. 
 

Im not nationalistic, in the slightest, so all the flag waving arguments give me the boak; from both side. I don’t get the attachment to a flag be it a Union Jack or saltire tbqfhwy, especially when it’s little more than an accident if birth. 
 

Leaving the EU has defo made me more pro Indy. I also think some of the economic arguments around it have changed due to this. If there was a time to leave and start a fresh, it wouldn’t be bad timing either🤷🏻‍♂️ (If done correctly) 
 

I don’t really see Indy the same way as many others. To me it’s just about a system of governance so most the arguments on this board seem irrelevant to me. 
 

I’m probably leaning more towards leaving nowadays but until it’s really back on the cards it’s not something I give much thought to. 
 

I’m amazed by the passion, hypocrisy, hyperbole and idiocy it brings about from the most impassionaied supporters though.  Probably the best thing about this debate tbh. 
 

 

 

Bit sexist that post 😂 you not got anything in common with Sharon from Saltcoats ? Or Renata from Berlin ? 😂😂😂 good post really . More I visit England the more I realise we are all very similar . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

18 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

This will go under the category of posts I regret, however, I’m in a pondering mood and waiting about,
 

I’m one of the few posters on this thread that is undecided. I voted no last time but I have no ideological basis for that.  I essentially voted on what I thought would be best for me and mine. 
 

I’ve certainly become much more open to Indy, primarily due to our removal from the EU. In someways I feel the same about the EU as I do about the UK. 
 

I found it attractive being able to work, travel across most of Europe and if I’m honest philosophically speaking I don’t see myself all that different from Manuel in Spain. We face the same challenges and largely have the same aspirations in the grand scheme of things. I felt there was great benefit working together towards common goals. The world is a very small place nowadays. 
 

That is probably similar reasons why I feel there is a lot of sense in the UK. We’re a tiny island in real terms and the issues we face are pretty much the same. The fact that I’m born on some side of an imaginary line that that was put their for some random reason hundreds of year ago matters not a jot to me.
 

I have as much in common with Michael from Birmingham as I do Scott from Paisley. 
 

For me it’s not really, where born that brings commonality. It’s values, beliefs, aspirations etc. 
 

Im not nationalistic, in the slightest, so all the flag waving arguments give me the boak; from both side. I don’t get the attachment to a flag be it a Union Jack or saltire tbqfhwy, especially when it’s little more than an accident if birth. 
 

Leaving the EU has defo made me more pro Indy. I also think some of the economic arguments around it have changed due to this. If there was a time to leave and start a fresh, it wouldn’t be bad timing either🤷🏻‍♂️ (If done correctly) 
 

I don’t really see Indy the same way as many others. To me it’s just about a system of governance so most the arguments on this board seem irrelevant to me. 
 

I’m probably leaning more towards leaving nowadays but until it’s really back on the cards it’s not something I give much thought to. 
 

I’m amazed by the passion, hypocrisy, hyperbole and idiocy it brings about from the most impassionaied supporters though.  Probably the best thing about this debate tbh. 
 

 

 

 

[New Town Loafer]

41 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

They've got a lot of work to do but the SNP are blatantly better at running the show than the UK Gov.

 

The SNP are utterly incompetent, so don't understand how you can say that.

[Ribble]

35 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

This will go under the category of posts I regret, however, I’m in a pondering mood and waiting about,
 

I’m one of the few posters on this thread that is undecided. I voted no last time but I have no ideological basis for that.  I essentially voted on what I thought would be best for me and mine. 
 

I’ve certainly become much more open to Indy, primarily due to our removal from the EU. In someways I feel the same about the EU as I do about the UK. 
 

I found it attractive being able to work, travel across most of Europe and if I’m honest philosophically speaking I don’t see myself all that different from Manuel in Spain. We face the same challenges and largely have the same aspirations in the grand scheme of things. I felt there was great benefit working together towards common goals. The world is a very small place nowadays. 
 

That is probably similar reasons why I feel there is a lot of sense in the UK. We’re a tiny island in real terms and the issues we face are pretty much the same. The fact that I’m born on some side of an imaginary line that that was put their for some random reason hundreds of year ago matters not a jot to me.
 

I have as much in common with Michael from Birmingham as I do Scott from Paisley. 
 

For me it’s not really, where born that brings commonality. It’s values, beliefs, aspirations etc. 
 

Im not nationalistic, in the slightest, so all the flag waving arguments give me the boak; from both side. I don’t get the attachment to a flag be it a Union Jack or saltire tbqfhwy, especially when it’s little more than an accident if birth. 
 

Leaving the EU has defo made me more pro Indy. I also think some of the economic arguments around it have changed due to this. If there was a time to leave and start a fresh, it wouldn’t be bad timing either🤷🏻‍♂️ (If done correctly) 
 

I don’t really see Indy the same way as many others. To me it’s just about a system of governance so most the arguments on this board seem irrelevant to me. 
 

I’m probably leaning more towards leaving nowadays but until it’s really back on the cards it’s not something I give much thought to. 
 

I’m amazed by the passion, hypocrisy, hyperbole and idiocy it brings about from the most impassionaied supporters though.  Probably the best thing about this debate tbh. 
 

 

 

 

Good post that mirrors a lot of my feelings about the subject.

 

That said i've not yet gotten to the pro-indy stage yet, i'm open to the idea but I am yet to be convinced, as you say it's not about being a nat or unionist for me I don't have strong feelings either way but from a work perspective if I want to enact change then I need to come up with a full and transparent business plan detailing the problem, the potential solutions, benefits and their risks and then a recommended action. So far all i've ever seen from the SNP is the problem statement and the unionists the risks, without a balanced view of the solutions, the benefits and the risks I can't be convinced to vote Yes.

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

This will go under the category of posts I regret, however, I’m in a pondering mood and waiting about,
 

I’m one of the few posters on this thread that is undecided. I voted no last time but I have no ideological basis for that.  I essentially voted on what I thought would be best for me and mine. 
 

I’ve certainly become much more open to Indy, primarily due to our removal from the EU. In someways I feel the same about the EU as I do about the UK. 
 

I found it attractive being able to work, travel across most of Europe and if I’m honest philosophically speaking I don’t see myself all that different from Manuel in Spain. We face the same challenges and largely have the same aspirations in the grand scheme of things. I felt there was great benefit working together towards common goals. The world is a very small place nowadays. 
 

That is probably similar reasons why I feel there is a lot of sense in the UK. We’re a tiny island in real terms and the issues we face are pretty much the same. The fact that I’m born on some side of an imaginary line that that was put their for some random reason hundreds of year ago matters not a jot to me.
 

I have as much in common with Michael from Birmingham as I do Scott from Paisley. 
 

For me it’s not really, where born that brings commonality. It’s values, beliefs, aspirations etc. 
 

Im not nationalistic, in the slightest, so all the flag waving arguments give me the boak; from both side. I don’t get the attachment to a flag be it a Union Jack or saltire tbqfhwy, especially when it’s little more than an accident if birth. 
 

Leaving the EU has defo made me more pro Indy. I also think some of the economic arguments around it have changed due to this. If there was a time to leave and start a fresh, it wouldn’t be bad timing either🤷🏻‍♂️ (If done correctly) 
 

I don’t really see Indy the same way as many others. To me it’s just about a system of governance so most the arguments on this board seem irrelevant to me. 
 

I’m probably leaning more towards leaving nowadays but until it’s really back on the cards it’s not something I give much thought to. 
 

I’m amazed by the passion, hypocrisy, hyperbole and idiocy it brings about from the most impassionaied supporters though.  Probably the best thing about this debate tbh. 
 

 

 

 

Good post.

[Japan Jambo]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Enough with the Brexiteer imperial measurements, you THJ.

 

😁 too late to claim I meant it?

[Taffin]

People looking for hard facts of what it will look like will be left wanting.

 

There's certain things that can be defined and others that can't.

 

There's absolutely nothing stopping independence and then a party similar to the conservatives running and winning. The SNP cannot say what the future will look like, the best they can do is illustrate how they would go about it and what independence would open up as options, which in fairness they appear to be getting on with now.

 

The crux of it is, is it better to have the option to set a different path from the UK? For me, particularly post-Brexit, the answer is obviously yes. Will it be hard? Yes, but the opportunity to make a better future for others is great. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Taffin

[manaliveits105]

24 minutes ago, New Town Loafer said:

The SNP are utterly incompetent, so don't understand how you can say that.

Is the correct answer 

[Herbert.]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

They've got a lot of work to do but the SNP are blatantly better at running the show than the UK Gov.

They spend millions ensuring shite like the bedroom tax etc isn't enforced to Scottish homes. 

 

Chosing between The SNP and the rest is like choosing which type of cancer you want to ravage your body. 

[Pans Jambo]

Labour ran the country 12 years ago.

 

Tories run it now (extremely badly).

 

My point? No political party stays in power for ever (although I'm not so sure this is true when it comes to the tories these days. They seem to get away with anything they want and folks STILL vote for them).

 

Will the SNP run an independent Scotland for ever and a day? Doubt it will run it for more than 3 years TBH. 

[Haken]

There's a question around who dominates EU politics (and therefore decisions) and comparing those voices to Westminster voices.  After all, it's not independence, is it?  It's 'Which Union do you prefer?'.

[Bonnie Prince Charlie]

I have been an SNP member for over 20 years. I will vote yes again but I want true independence and not to go with EU membership. I would prefer to go with the Norway model and sign up to treaties which suit us.

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

👍 because you know that she won't hold one and is stringing everyone along or because I'm down here in London and therefore will be deemed not worthy of getting a say in matters pertaining to my country of birth? 

Neither, it's a waste of everyone's time, me trying to convince a unionist

[Lord Montpelier]

31 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Labour ran the country 12 years ago.

 

Tories run it now (extremely badly).

 

My point? No political party stays in power for ever (although I'm not so sure this is true when it comes to the tories these days. They seem to get away with anything they want and folks STILL vote for them).

 

Will the SNP run an independent Scotland for ever and a day? Doubt it will run it for more than 3 years TBH. 

They will resign en masse the day after its delivered (if its delivered). Most won't want to be held account for the mess they create. My local SNP MSP (a good guy) said that would be his approach. Makes me very skeptical. 

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

They will resign en masse the day after its delivered (if its delivered). Most won't want to be held account for the mess they create. My local SNP MSP (a good guy) said that would be his approach. Makes me very skeptical. 

So to finally get rid of the SNP, everyone should just vote for Scottish Independence? 

 

I can live with that.

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

This will go under the category of posts I regret, however, I’m in a pondering mood and waiting about,
 

I’m one of the few posters on this thread that is undecided. I voted no last time but I have no ideological basis for that.  I essentially voted on what I thought would be best for me and mine. 
 

I’ve certainly become much more open to Indy, primarily due to our removal from the EU. In someways I feel the same about the EU as I do about the UK. 
 

I found it attractive being able to work, travel across most of Europe and if I’m honest philosophically speaking I don’t see myself all that different from Manuel in Spain. We face the same challenges and largely have the same aspirations in the grand scheme of things. I felt there was great benefit working together towards common goals. The world is a very small place nowadays. 
 

That is probably similar reasons why I feel there is a lot of sense in the UK. We’re a tiny island in real terms and the issues we face are pretty much the same. The fact that I’m born on some side of an imaginary line that that was put their for some random reason hundreds of year ago matters not a jot to me.
 

I have as much in common with Michael from Birmingham as I do Scott from Paisley. 
 

For me it’s not really, where born that brings commonality. It’s values, beliefs, aspirations etc. 
 

Im not nationalistic, in the slightest, so all the flag waving arguments give me the boak; from both side. I don’t get the attachment to a flag be it a Union Jack or saltire tbqfhwy, especially when it’s little more than an accident if birth. 
 

Leaving the EU has defo made me more pro Indy. I also think some of the economic arguments around it have changed due to this. If there was a time to leave and start a fresh, it wouldn’t be bad timing either🤷🏻‍♂️ (If done correctly) 
 

I don’t really see Indy the same way as many others. To me it’s just about a system of governance so most the arguments on this board seem irrelevant to me. 
 

I’m probably leaning more towards leaving nowadays but until it’s really back on the cards it’s not something I give much thought to. 
 

I’m amazed by the passion, hypocrisy, hyperbole and idiocy it brings about from the most impassionaied supporters though.  Probably the best thing about this debate tbh. 
 

 

 

Excellent post, m'lud.   👍   Sums up my thoughts too.   As @JudyJudyJudy alluded to yesterday, the prospect of another 2 years of Yes v. No  debate seems depressing & petty while the global economic shock is hurting people badly and Putin continues to edge towards causing further chaos & bloodshed in Europe -  I find it hard to even care who wins if it comes to a vote.   

 

The examples of Indyref1 and EUref  have simply shown (imo)  how  political ideology in these things largely centres around power-grabs by  unpleasant politicians for its own sake, dressed up as "freedom".     

 

 

 

[Cairneyhill Jambo]

33 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

They will resign en masse the day after its delivered (if its delivered). Most won't want to be held account for the mess they create. My local SNP MSP (a good guy) said that would be his approach. Makes me very skeptical. 

Just like Cameron and Farage after Brexit? They disappeared faster than a shit of a shovel after leaving us with this shitshow. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, New Town Loafer said:

The SNP are utterly incompetent, so don't understand how you can say that.

True 

2 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

Good post that mirrors a lot of my feelings about the subject.

 

That said i've not yet gotten to the pro-indy stage yet, i'm open to the idea but I am yet to be convinced, as you say it's not about being a nat or unionist for me I don't have strong feelings either way but from a work perspective if I want to enact change then I need to come up with a full and transparent business plan detailing the problem, the potential solutions, benefits and their risks and then a recommended action. So far all i've ever seen from the SNP is the problem statement and the unionists the risks, without a balanced view of the solutions, the benefits and the risks I can't be convinced to vote Yes.

Yes it’s up to yes to convince No to vote yes I feel . People can live with the status quo , even if awful as it’s the safer option . 

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

Neither, it's a waste of everyone's time, me trying to convince a unionist

You’ll no get many No on your side with that attitude really . They need to be convinced / coaxed into voting yes not Derided . 

53 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Excellent post, m'lud.   👍   Sums up my thoughts too.   As @JudyJudyJudy alluded to yesterday, the prospect of another 2 years of Yes v. No  debate seems depressing & petty while the global economic shock is hurting people badly and Putin continues to edge towards causing further chaos & bloodshed in Europe -  I find it hard to even care who wins if it comes to a vote.   

 

The examples of Indyref1 and EUref  have simply shown (imo)  how  political ideology in these things largely centres around power-grabs by  unpleasant politicians for its own sake, dressed up as "freedom".     

 

 

 

👍

[Malinga the Swinga]

17 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

True 

Yes it’s up to yes to convince No to vote yes I feel . People can live with the status quo , even if awful as it’s the safer option . 

You’ll no get many No on your side with that attitude really . They need to be convinced / coaxed into voting yes not Derided . 

👍

That's why I don't understand. Screaming Tories are to blame won't convince most to vote for independence. 

A clear coherent and detailed plan explaining why it is to the individuals benefit to do so just might persuade the required number.

So far, no plan produced. It wasn't produced last time either.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Bonnie Prince Charlie said:

I have been an SNP member for over 20 years. I will vote yes again but I want true independence and not to go with EU membership. I would prefer to go with the Norway model and sign up to treaties which suit us.

Have to say I am not sure how being in effect run from Paris and Berlin  is an advance towards making Scotland an independent country.

 

[Unknown user]

43 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

You’ll no get many No on your side with that attitude really . They need to be convinced / coaxed into voting yes not Derided . 

👍

 

I'm not deriding anyone jamesyboy, I'm just not trying to convince unionists. It's as pointless as a unionist trying to convince me.

 

There are three opinions on this and only one of them really matters, they'll decide the outcome. It's the Don't Knows I'm interested in (and I mean the genuine Don't Knows.)

Many of them are watching but not posting here, and on a larger scale the two sides would be well advised to avoid campaigning to their supporters, and instead campaign to those guys.

[Unknown user]

19 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Have to say I am not sure how being in effect run from Paris and Berlin  is an advance towards making Scotland an independent country.

 

 

We wouldn't be members of the EU, there would be a democratic conversation to have, likely with a pro Europe party and an anti Europe party in a general election.

 

Personally, I favour seeking a partnership with the rest of the UK. We share so much history and culture, there are so many ties and links, it seems crazy not to IMO.

 

I see no reason we couldn't have a Benelux style agreement, maybe joint armed forces in return for using Faslane, open borders and a single market.

 

There's a world of possibilities away from whatever fight Westminster's picking today.

[Pasquale for King]

https://www.believeinscotland.org/

 

https://commonweal.scot/

 

https://thecommongreen.scot/

 

There’s some resources for those asking questions about how Scotland will deal with Independence. 
 

You will find lots more articles in any balanced newspaper showing how it can be achieved. 

The current problems will only get worse under the Tories or their pals like Sir Keir. 

 

[Montgomery Brewster]

3 hours ago, Bonnie Prince Charlie said:

I have been an SNP member for over 20 years. I will vote yes again but I want true independence and not to go with EU membership. I would prefer to go with the Norway model and sign up to treaties which suit us.

👍🏻

[Des Lynam]

5 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

This will go under the category of posts I regret, however, I’m in a pondering mood and waiting about,
 

I’m one of the few posters on this thread that is undecided. I voted no last time but I have no ideological basis for that.  I essentially voted on what I thought would be best for me and mine. 
 

I’ve certainly become much more open to Indy, primarily due to our removal from the EU. In someways I feel the same about the EU as I do about the UK. 
 

I found it attractive being able to work, travel across most of Europe and if I’m honest philosophically speaking I don’t see myself all that different from Manuel in Spain. We face the same challenges and largely have the same aspirations in the grand scheme of things. I felt there was great benefit working together towards common goals. The world is a very small place nowadays. 
 

That is probably similar reasons why I feel there is a lot of sense in the UK. We’re a tiny island in real terms and the issues we face are pretty much the same. The fact that I’m born on some side of an imaginary line that that was put their for some random reason hundreds of year ago matters not a jot to me.
 

I have as much in common with Michael from Birmingham as I do Scott from Paisley. 
 

For me it’s not really, where born that brings commonality. It’s values, beliefs, aspirations etc. 
 

Im not nationalistic, in the slightest, so all the flag waving arguments give me the boak; from both side. I don’t get the attachment to a flag be it a Union Jack or saltire tbqfhwy, especially when it’s little more than an accident if birth. 
 

Leaving the EU has defo made me more pro Indy. I also think some of the economic arguments around it have changed due to this. If there was a time to leave and start a fresh, it wouldn’t be bad timing either🤷🏻‍♂️ (If done correctly) 
 

I don’t really see Indy the same way as many others. To me it’s just about a system of governance so most the arguments on this board seem irrelevant to me. 
 

I’m probably leaning more towards leaving nowadays but until it’s really back on the cards it’s not something I give much thought to. 
 

I’m amazed by the passion, hypocrisy, hyperbole and idiocy it brings about from the most impassionaied supporters though.  Probably the best thing about this debate tbh. 
 

 

 

Good post. 
 

The economic prosperity argument must be won if independence is ever going to sway No voters. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

We wouldn't be members of the EU, there would be a democratic conversation to have, likely with a pro Europe party and an anti Europe party in a general election.

 

Personally, I favour seeking a partnership with the rest of the UK. We share so much history and culture, there are so many ties and links, it seems crazy not to IMO.

 

I see no reason we couldn't have a Benelux style agreement, maybe joint armed forces in return for using Faslane, open borders and a single market.

 

There's a world of possibilities away from whatever fight Westminster's picking today.

Agreed. But that seems a long way from SNP policy or the views of most SNP members voters and their representatives.

Keeping their light on in Brussels.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Francis Albert

[OTT]

24 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

Good post. 
 

The economic prosperity argument must be won if independence is ever going to sway No voters. 

 

I agree with this. Sturgeons government have a lot to do to ease concerns in that regard. With the time to reflect on what went wrong in 2014, it would be very disappointing if they haven't been able to answer questions on things like pensions, currency etc. 

 

It will be interesting to see what approach the no camp elect to take though. No maybe won in 2014, but they lost vote share to Yes which they've not been able to win back and Labour have become a 3rd rate party as a result. I do not believe there is a positive vision to sell of the Union because that would require change that it isn't capable of making. Federalism etc. is a fairy tale and following the Vow I think folk will think very carefully about the substance of promises made when casting their votes. 

[Bonnie Prince Charlie]

I doubt the English media or our unionists on here realise just how popular the SNP government is. I believe if we had an unfair first past the post system that the other parties would only have 5 or 6 elected members.

[Space Mackerel]

18 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Good man, keep using that persuasive language there.  👍 

 

I'll let Angus explain. 😉

 

https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1301600379520659456?s=20&t=hVpJ9CtR75E9pzgwxFpMYA

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, Bonnie Prince Charlie said:

I doubt the English media or our unionists on here realise just how popular the SNP government is. I believe if we had an unfair first past the post system that the other parties would only have 5 or 6 elected members.

So popular it gained less than 50% of the votes cast in election. 

This is why they are a minority government and rely on greens to govern.

They are so popular they failed to persuade Scotland to vote for independence last time.

They're so popular they will fail next time.

Good trolling though.