Should Scotland be an independent country?

[pablo]

 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Scotfotbawfan said:

 

 

 

 

Watch that interview.

At least she doesn’t duck an interview with him like someone else I could mention.
Andrew Neil was telling us the oil was running oot in the early 80’s as well btw. 
 

[Scotfotbawfan]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

At least she doesn’t duck an interview with him like someone else I could mention.
Andrew Neil was telling us the oil was running oot in the early 80’s as well btw. 
 

 

She also doesn't deny we get subsidised either.  I bet you of that was a lie she would have said something though.  Nicola sturgeon doesn't deny it yet all pro indy people do.  

[Shooter McGavin]

See if we could just be independent from Westminster, that would be lovely.

[Taffin]

28 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

We get subsidised, according to a government that wants to keep us for some reason. Known for charity, Westminster.

 

That's the question everyone who's doubtful should ask themselves. Why exactly do the UK government want to avoid Scottish Independence? As you say, they're not known for their generosity.

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Scotfotbawfan said:

 

She also doesn't deny we get subsidised either.  I bet you of that was a lie she would have said something though.  Nicola sturgeon doesn't deny it yet all pro indy people do.  

Mate I’ll agree there’s some utter halfwits on the yes side. There’s every bit as many on the union side too. None of us really know what the position would be as even in the case of it all being set out the British govt made it crystal clear in 2014 they would agree to absolutely nothing or negotiate a single thing until after the vote yet I’ve even seen that proposed on here. 
Countries of similar size to Scotland without anything like our resources do better than us. Better than the UK that is too. 
Im not going to pretend I’m some know it all economic guru but I’m not afraid of it. Afraid of the future? If you think it’s all guaranteed in the uk I’ve got news for you.  

[kingantti1874]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

That's the question everyone who's doubtful should ask themselves. Why exactly do the UK government want to avoid Scottish Independence? As you say, they're not known for their generosity.

no the question is how on earth would an independent Scotland avoid tax hikes and spending cuts, how exactly will we avoid a hard border, how exactly will we get goods to Europe avoiding tariffs, how exactly will we retain jobs in our biggest industry (FS) which is 95% dependent on customers across the U.K. 

 

we will be poorer for a generation at least and the country would be dependent on people who didn’t vote for the mess ! To fix the mess! 

[Scotfotbawfan]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Mate I’ll agree there’s some utter halfwits on the yes side. There’s every bit as many on the union side too. None of us really know what the position would be as even in the case of it all being set out the British govt made it crystal clear in 2014 they would agree to absolutely nothing or negotiate a single thing until after the vote yet I’ve even seen that proposed on here. 
Countries of similar size to Scotland without anything like our resources do better than us. Better than the UK that is too. 
Im not going to pretend I’m some know it all economic guru but I’m not afraid of it. Afraid of the future? If you think it’s all guaranteed in the uk I’ve got news for you.  

 

 

There should be a law brought in with a minimum 10 year jail sentence for political figure spreading lies and false information during campaigns.  Maybe then we would know the actual implications of things.  I don't ever vote and the reason being is I don't believe any of them, all of them are as hypocritical as the person they are standing against. 

[kingantti1874]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Mate I’ll agree there’s some utter halfwits on the yes side. There’s every bit as many on the union side too. None of us really know what the position would be as even in the case of it all being set out the British govt made it crystal clear in 2014 they would agree to absolutely nothing or negotiate a single thing until after the vote yet I’ve even seen that proposed on here. 
Countries of similar size to Scotland without anything like our resources do better than us. Better than the UK that is too. 
Im not going to pretend I’m some know it all economic guru but I’m not afraid of it. Afraid of the future? If you think it’s all guaranteed in the uk I’ve got news for you.  

let’s hope sturgeon provides some truthful answers before gambling with the future of the country.

 

 

[kingantti1874]

Just now, Scotfotbawfan said:

 

 

There should be a law brought in with a minimum 10 year jail sentence for political figure spreading lies and false information during campaigns.  Maybe then we would know the actual implications of things.  I don't ever vote and the reason being is I don't believe any of them, all of them are as hypocritical as the person they are standing against. 

correct. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Scotfotbawfan said:

 

 

There should be a law brought in with a minimum 10 year jail sentence for political figure spreading lies and false information during campaigns.  Maybe then we would know the actual implications of things.  I don't ever vote and the reason being is I don't believe any of them, all of them are as hypocritical as the person they are standing against. 

Boris Johnson and half his cabinet would now be doing porridge then. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:

let’s hope sturgeon provides some truthful answers before gambling with the future of the country.

 

 

Tbh I think what Sturgeon needs is to show some vision. I don’t think she has though it or this conversation would be further down the road. 
She doesn’t want it I don’t think. She’s been cornered now though. 

[Horatio Caine]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Boris Johnson and half his cabinet would now be doing porridge then. 

Correct.  I'm no great Indy fan, but BJ, JRM, PP et al are enough to put anyone off Westminster for life.

[micole]

1 minute ago, Horatio Caine said:

Correct.  I'm no great Indy fan, but BJ, JRM, PP et al are enough to put anyone off Westminster for life.

And if! they get back in at the next GE what then ?.........food for thought eh.

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Boris Johnson and half his cabinet would now be doing porridge then. 

 

 

They're all it Jack

[JudyJudyJudy]

16 minutes ago, Scotfotbawfan said:

 

 

 

 

Watch that interview.

So she is admitting that Scotland can have a deficit?  She also noted the massive impact of oil impacts on the economy ?  Thought they were gonna stop drilling for oil for climate change reasons? 

 

19 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

they genuinely believe we’d be better off.  Thing is if Scotland can retain its best and brightest talent .. we may be after a long long time..

 

thing is, it will take a long long time - and Scotland will not retain its best and brightest.  Massive talent drain is inevitable 

Yes that's the issue. How long will it take for Scotland to be economically viable ? Is it really worth putting our younger population through all that misery?  For a daft concept about a " Border" . Can definitely forget about EU membership as well.  What about the impact on that on the border with England? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

generation

and that's a real generation no " the once in a lifetime " one.  

[Taffin]

8 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

no the question is how on earth would an independent Scotland avoid tax hikes and spending cuts,

 

 

What, like the UK government have delivered in the past 12 months? 

 

8 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

How exactly will we avoid a hard border  

 

Like the one with Ireland?

 

8 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

 

how exactly will we get goods to Europe avoiding tariffs

 

 

 

We join the single market

 

8 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

 

how exactly will we retain jobs in our biggest industry (FS) which is 95% dependent on customers across the U.K. 

 

 

The same as now. Why would they leave?

 

8 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

we will be poorer for a generation at least and the country would be dependent on people who didn’t vote for the mess ! To fix the mess! 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

What, like the UK government have delivered in the past 12 months? 

 

 

Like the one with Ireland?

 

 

We join the single market

 

 

The same as now. Why would they leave?

 

 

 

Like it😃👌🏼

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

They're all it Jack

She hasn’t actually delivered anything on the back of a pack of lies though man. 
Not like say lying about brexit and oven  ready deals that they now don’t like. Riding roughshod over the elected govt of NI. 
That bellend IDS laughed in parliament when they said they shouid analyse the deal. David Davis called it a remainers brexit. 
It’s not anything similar man. 

[jack D and coke]

Imagine the FS industry having only to move some offices up the road to access the EU market…

Na they wouldn’t want that eh😂

[micole]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

She hasn’t actually delivered anything on the back of a pack of lies though man. 
Not like say lying about brexit and oven  ready deals that they now don’t like. Riding roughshod over the elected govt of NI. 
That bellend IDS laughed in parliament when they said they shouid analyse the deal. David Davis called it a remainers brexit. 
It’s not anything similar man. 

Or if we vote to leave the UK it would jeopardise our place in the EU.......brilliant eh.

[kingantti1874]

I’ll not a unionist or a nationalist , I’m absolutely against independence for the simple reason we will be massively worse off.

 

if presented with the same choice (and knowledge) in 1979 I’d overwhelming have voted for independence. But it’s too late. 
 

As an aside - im also massively against constitutional referendums full stop. They do nothing but sow division and unrest and leave large swathes of the population disenfranchised.  if anyone think they will “vote” to change someone’s nationality! To spilt families  And it will just be accepted gracefully. 
 

NI#2

[Cade]

I DEMAND CAST IRON GUARANTEES OF GLOBAL ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OVER THE NEXT TWENTY YEARS OR I'M VOTING NO

 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, kingantti1874 said:

I’ll not a unionist or a nationalist , I’m absolutely against independence for the simple reason we will be massively worse off.

 

if presented with the same choice (and knowledge) in 1979 I’d overwhelming have voted for independence. But it’s too late. 
 

As an aside - im also massively against constitutional referendums full stop. They do nothing but sow division and unrest and leave large swathes of the population disenfranchised.  if anyone think they will “vote” to change someone’s nationality! To spilt families  And it will just be accepted gracefully. 
 

NI#2

I don’t consider myself a nationalist. People on here would probably doubt that but I’m not. If there’s never another indyref that’s fine it’s not the end of my world at all. If there was and it was No that really would be the end of it for me. Enough. 
I just rail back at people ripping the place up for shite paper all the time and mocking everything about the country. 
That’s what pushed me over to Yes.

 

[jack D and coke]

5 minutes ago, Cade said:

I DEMAND CAST IRON GUARANTEES OF GLOBAL ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OVER THE NEXT TWENTY YEARS OR I'M VOTING NO

 

[kingantti1874]

8 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

What, like the UK government have delivered in the past 12 months? 

ah the SNP whataboutery tactic. Rise above it and the data is clear ! it would have been worse and gets worse if we vote to leave 

 

 

Like the one with Ireland?

what’s the name of the sea between Scotland and England? 

 

We join the single market

how do we physically get goods through England? Or are we building a port? 

 

8 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

The same as now. Why would they leave?

Lots of reasons 1 higher tax! 2.  Existing jobs highly dependent on the U.K. market.  Financial services for example. There is no RBS or BOS anymore. It’s Lloyds and NatWest.. Which are headquartered in London. 
 

I could go on.  We will be no more relevant than NI. A great example of what happens to a country when the talent leaves

 

Sorry. All your questions have done is highlight my point. 
 

[pablo]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

I don’t consider myself a nationalist. People on here would probably doubt that but I’m not. If there’s never another indyref that’s fine it’s not the end of my world at all. If there was and it was No that really would be the end of it for me. Enough. 
I just rail back at people ripping the place up for shite paper all the time and mocking everything about the country. 
That’s what pushed me over to Yes.

 

 

But the SNP don't big up Scotland. They spend more time talking about Ireland, Denmark, New Zealand, anywhere else.

 

We could be just like them, we're not going to tell you how, just trust us.

[jack D and coke]

Just now, pablo said:

 

But the SNP don't big up Scotland. They spend more time talking about Ireland, Denmark, New Zealand, anywhere else.

 

We could be just like them, we're not going to tell you how, just trust us.

I know we could. That’s why I’m all for it. 

[kingantti1874]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I don’t consider myself a nationalist. People on here would probably doubt that but I’m not. If there’s never another indyref that’s fine it’s not the end of my world at all. If there was and it was No that really would be the end of it for me. Enough. 
I just rail back at people ripping the place up for shite paper all the time and mocking everything about the country. 
That’s what pushed me over to Yes.

 

I’d argue if we had focused on running the country for the last 20 years as opposed to chasing unicorns there would be less ripping. 
 

as it stands.  Don’t need to be ashamed to call a spade a spade.

[pablo]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

I know we could. That’s why I’m all for it. 

 

How then? High taxes to pay for services like Scandinavian countries or low taxes like Ireland and no NHS? What's the plan?

[Japan Jambo]

37 minutes ago, Scotfotbawfan said:

 

 

 

 

Watch that interview.

 

this was obviously a while back but whats really worrying about this is the focus on what might have been rather than the actual position that would be inherited. To be fair to her she is smart and I think the inconvenient truth is she knows herself that the numbers don't add up which is why she is slow walking it.

[Cade]

Brexit is a leap in economic dark.

Scottish Independence is a leap in the economic dark.

 

But then anything is a leap in the economic dark. That's why we keep having crashes and recessions.

 

Would you rather have this leap in your own hands with solutions tailored to Scotland's needs, or would you rather have no say in the matter and put up with solutions tailored to the south-east of England?

 

[Scotfotbawfan]

19 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

So she is admitting that Scotland can have a deficit?  She also noted the massive impact of oil impacts on the economy ?  Thought they were gonna stop drilling for oil for climate change reasons? 

 

Yes that's the issue. How long will it take for Scotland to be economically viable ? Is it really worth putting our younger population through all that misery?  For a daft concept about a " Border" . Can definitely forget about EU membership as well.  What about the impact on that on the border with England? 

 

 

The point was when asked about to thank them for subsidising us she doesn't deny it.  I don't see where we make up the shortfall.  I've heard people say we will get high earners paying more tax and big companies will get hit with extra too.  Watch what happens after that.  Theysame people and companies will be moving an hour down the road to England to avoid it, like anyone with any sense would  do. Then where do we go.

[kingantti1874]

Just now, Japan Jambo said:

 

this was obviously a while back but whats really worrying about this is the focus on what might have been rather than the actual position that would be inherited. To be fair to her she is smart and I think the inconvenient truth is she knows herself that the numbers don't add up which is why she is slow walking it.

she is very clever. She know what it means.  And she is happy to lie and mislead anyway. 

[micole]

7 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

I’ll not a unionist or a nationalist , I’m absolutely against independence for the simple reason we will be massively worse off.

 

if presented with the same choice (and knowledge) in 1979 I’d overwhelming have voted for independence. But it’s too late. 
 

As an aside - im also massively against constitutional referendums full stop. They do nothing but sow division and unrest and leave large swathes of the population disenfranchised.  if anyone think they will “vote” to change someone’s nationality! To spilt families  And it will just be accepted gracefully. 
 

NI#2

I do understand your concerns but the status quo ( not the band 😁) cannot go on. Until we find a compromise ( maybe federalism) indy will be on the table. I really do think that over the years Westminster has sleepwalked into the rise of the SNP and the general mood in Scotland. We seem to be irrelevant to them in a political sense. What the future holds is anyone's guess.

[pablo]

Just now, Japan Jambo said:

 

this was obviously a while back but whats really worrying about this is the focus on what might have been rather than the actual position that would be inherited. To be fair to her she is smart and I think the inconvenient truth is she knows herself that the numbers don't add up which is why she is slow walking it.

 

Of course it is. That's why the Crowth Commission Report was buried.

 

She can't deliver a referendum and the people don't want one.

 

Still, she's doing not bad for herself out of it. 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, pablo said:

 

How then? High taxes to pay for services like Scandinavian countries or low taxes like Ireland and no NHS? What's the plan?

That’s not really my job. It’s not really yours to try tell me the whole place goes down the kazi either. Because you don’t know. 
High taxes are already here. 
The NHS is already at breaking point. 
Im not having a pop at you btw but we won’t ever see it the same way. I won’t be scared into a No. If it happens and doesn’t go great I’ll own it. I won’t leave. 

[Taffin]

3 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

 

 

Sorry. All your questions have done is highlight my point. 
 

 

I don't agree with your take on it, but that's okay. I think we'd overcome those issues quite comfortably. There are significant ones I'm not so sure of, but those ones...no issue imo.

 

 

4 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

But the SNP don't big up Scotland. They spend more time talking about Ireland, Denmark, New Zealand, anywhere else.

 

We could be just like them, we're not going to tell you how, just trust us.

 

What was your take on my suggestion of Finland in the other thread when you said none of the comparative countries had left a union of hundreds of years to become independent with a recession on the horizon?

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

I DEMAND CAST IRON GUARANTEES OF GLOBAL ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OVER THE NEXT TWENTY YEARS OR I'M VOTING NO

 

Might not be able to demand it but you can take steps to try and avoid economic collapse.  

[kingantti1874]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

Brexit is a leap in economic dark.

Scottish Independence is a leap in the economic dark.

 

But then anything is a leap in the economic dark. That's why we keep having crashes and recessions.

 

Would you rather have this leap in your own hands with solutions tailored to Scotland's needs, or would you rather have no say in the matter and put up with solutions tailored to the south-east of England?

 

It’s not really a leap in the dark. Its fact that the Scottish economy is largely built around England.  Changing it will take a very long time.  And in the interim there is zero doubt the country and its citizens will be poorer.

 

well some of its citizens.  The ones who can afford to leave will leave 

 

[Shooter McGavin]

17 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

I’ll not a unionist or a nationalist , I’m absolutely against independence for the simple reason we will be massively worse off.

 

if presented with the same choice (and knowledge) in 1979 I’d overwhelming have voted for independence. But it’s too late. 
 

As an aside - im also massively against constitutional referendums full stop. They do nothing but sow division and unrest and leave large swathes of the population disenfranchised.  if anyone think they will “vote” to change someone’s nationality! To spilt families  And it will just be accepted gracefully. 
 

NI#2

I’m neither here nor there right now, still a massive amount of stuff I’d need to read up on before I made a decision.

 

But with working people relying on foodbanks, millions of children living in poverty, and the rising price of fuel leading to some people genuinely not being able to afford to go to work, 

 

In a financial sense, can we actually be worse off than we are right now?

Edited June 14, 2022 by Shooter McGavin

[Scotfotbawfan]

37 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

 

 

The people who say we will tax the bigger companies like amazon etc are living in fantasy land.  The bigger companies tell the govermeant what to do,  they hold all the ace cards.  You don't like it ?. Right in that case we will take our company elsewhere along with the 500 jobs that you collect the tax from each month.  Big companies don't get bullied by govermeants to pay more as the end result the govermeant isn't going to win.

 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Scotfotbawfan said:

 

The people who say we will tax the bigger companies like amazon etc are living in fantasy land.  The bigger companies tell the govermeant what to do,  they hold all the ace cards.  You don't like it ?. Right in that case we will take our company elsewhere along with the 500 jobs that you collect the tax from each month.  Big companies don't get bullied by govermeants to pay more as the end result the govermeant isn't going to win.

 

I don’t see what point you’ve quoted me on bud sorry…

[kingantti1874]

4 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

I’m neither here nor there right now, still a massive amount of stuff I’d need to read up on before I made a decision.

 

But with working people relying on foodbanks, millions of children living in poverty, and the rising price of fuel leading to some people genuinely not being able to afford to go to work, 

 

In a financial sense, can we actually be worse off than we are right now?

Yeah we can.. quite easily.  the economics  are pretty clear. 
 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by kingantti1874

[pablo]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

What was your take on my suggestion of Finland in the other thread when you said none of the comparative countries had left a union of hundreds of years to become independent with a recession on the horizon?

 

I don't really know enough about Finnish history to comment, but I'm guessing it stems from the collapse of the Russian Empire, which was over 100 years ago?

 

Was Finland's relationship with the Russian Empire similar to Scotland and the Act of Union(s)/The United Kingdom?

 

 

 

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

5 minutes ago, Shooter McGavin said:

I’m neither here nor there right now, still a massive amount of stuff I’d need to read up on before I made a decision.

 

But with working people relying on foodbanks, millions of children living in poverty, and the rising price of fuel leading to some people genuinely not being able to afford to go to work, 

 

In a financial sense, can we actually be worse off than we are right now?

Yes, yes we can be worse off. 

[Shooter McGavin]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Yes, yes we can be worse off. 

Just curios, what’s worse than not being able to afford food, or to go to work?

 

Are we talking a mad max here?

Edited June 14, 2022 by Shooter McGavin

[GBJambo]

Too Many questions still unanswered. 

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

I don't really know enough about Finnish history to comment, but I'm guessing it stems from the collapse of the Russian Empire, which was over 100 years ago?

 

Was Finland's relationship with the Russian Empire similar to Scotland and the Act of Union(s)/The United Kingdom?

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know much of it either, it just ticked the boxes of the question you asked. Whether it ticks the additional boxes, I'm not sure. It was also in a union with Sweden prior to the Russian empire I think.

 

Not point scoring btw, just thought it was perhaps an interesting example...albeit yes, 100 years ago.