Should Scotland be an independent country?

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Not in the wee clique of ultra nationalists on here, you Uncle Jock Tam Hoose trayter Tory.

You’ve came in and shat on some decent debate Jonesy. No pish until you. Take that elsewhere man. 

[Ray Gin]

8 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Really? Whilst our schools and NHS have failed. Priorities no?

 

Cost of free University education: £627 million

 

Cost of the Tories pissing money away on Brexit, fraudulent contracts and faulty equipment: BILLIONS

 

Priorities, no?

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Cost of free University education: £627 million

 

Cost of the Tories pissing money away on Brexit, fraudulent contracts and faulty equipment: BILLIONS

 

Priorities, no?

 

 

[kingantti1874]

5 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Cost of free University education: £627 million

 

Cost of the Tories pissing money away on Brexit, fraudulent contracts and faulty equipment: BILLIONS

 

Priorities, no?

 

 

Classic deflection and what aboutery. An SNP staple

 

For the briefest of seconds I thought we were talkies  about ferries which ticked a few of those boxes. 👍🏻

be great if you could explain why it’s bad to piss away billions becuase of brexit but a great idea to piss away more billions through independence. 
 

I mean brexit was a cluster****  but I’ve yet to hear a cogent argument  as to why it’ll be ok this time round 
 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by kingantti1874

[Ray Gin]

17 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

The response to the covid situation was enough to show many that we are better pooling our economic and intellectual resources rather than go our separate ways (not for the want of trying by Elsie I should add)

 

We're better pooling our economic resources with the UK Gov who pissed away billions on faulty equipment, fraud and a test and trace system that didn't work?

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

Democracy. 

[Roxy Hearts]

Just how much mess does Westminster have to create for Scotland and the UK in general, for some folk to realise we can manage better ourselves by choosing our own governments? They don't care about Scotland or the Scottish people, how can you not see that!

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

 

Bit harsh? You’re just as guilty as many others for tossing out pejoratives that you know are going to lead to the inevitable nonsense. Just stick me on ignore if you don’t fancy seeing my contributions. I read yours because they’re usually well thought out and honest.

 

FWIW, I’ve moved on my own position re independence because of the binary and polarising nature of the debate, all the way from the mad online punters to the high heid yins. Intolerance seems to be the common trait among the keenest on both sides. It’s a rock and a hard place for the vast majority who have come to see both Holyrood and Westminster populated by lying, cheating bams.

 

 

Likewise yours. I knew someone would be along to drag in down just didn’t expect it to someone like you. 

[Lord Montpelier]

4 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

We're better pooling our economic resources with the UK Gov who pissed away billions on faulty equipment, fraud and a test and trace system that didn't work?

 

 

We could both be alive because of the Covid vaccine response Ray . Don't forget it. 

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:

Classic deflection and what aboutery. An SNP staple but a for a brief second I thought we were talkies  about ferries which ticked a few of those boxes. 
 

 

 

Free further education is not a waste of money. Dodgy contracts to MP's mates for equipment that doesn't work is.

 

Somehow there are people who are more upset about the SNP funding people's education than the Tories funding their mates' bank accounts with taxpayers' money.

 

 

 

 

[kingantti1874]

Just now, Pasquale for King said:

Democracy. 

Low turnout voter apathy knowing 40% of the population would vote for the SNP regardless of their clear failures in government.  

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

We could both be alive because of the Covid vaccine response Ray . Don't forget it. 

 

Every other country in Europe also has vaccines.

 

 

[kingantti1874]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Just how much mess does Westminster have to create for Scotland and the UK in general, for some folk to realise we can manage better ourselves by choosing our own governments? They don't care about Scotland or the Scottish people, how can you not see that!

becuase unlike many we can see through SNP fake propaganda, we realise that the big bad tories aren’t actually the root cause of RBR problem realise we will be fundamentally poorer. 

[OTT]

2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

We're better pooling our economic resources with the UK Gov who pissed away billions on faulty equipment, fraud and a test and trace system that didn't work?

 

 

 

Insane that the better together comfort blanket comes out in the face of how tragically bad the entire Covid pandemic was handled by the UK government. Sure, carehomes was a horrendous error too but the blatant fraud that went on as Matt Hancocks and the rest of those shysters pals robbed the government blind with PPE contracts that they clearly had no right to be getting is galling. Track and trace cost £37bn and DIDN'T WORK. For context Scotlands budget for 22-23 is £35bn. The absolute waste of resources by Westminster is criminal. We've watched the national debt double on the tories watch... they're supposed to be the stingy ones!!! I do not understand anyone that can look at this and think 'aye we couldn't do better ourselves'. 

 

Better together my ****ing arse. The asset stripping and blatant cash grab that went on is nothing less than criminal and should to any sensible person represent a nail in the coffin for the Union. 

[kingantti1874]

3 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Free further education is not a waste of money. Dodgy contracts to MP's mates for equipment that doesn't work is.

 

Somehow there are people who are more upset about the SNP funding people's education than the Tories funding their mates' bank accounts with taxpayers' money.

 

 

 

 

No challenge with free education. Just pointing out that it’s for by money we don’t actually have and that an independent Scotland will need to make hard decisons.

 

as for dodgy.. acknowledged but as per above the SNP have also proven themselves to be dodgy havent they.  

[jack D and coke]

Just now, jonesy said:

Ach, not the “I’m not angry, I’m just disappointed” treatment? 

 

Anyways, Mass’r Johnson done says get back to picking that tartan cotton. I got me some shortbread to be cooking.

I’m not angry ffs but the debate atm is decent.

What bugs me about you is you pretend to be in the middle of this yet always jump on the same side. Every single time.

That’s fine also man but stop pretending  

[kingantti1874]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Insane that the better together comfort blanket comes out in the face of how tragically bad the entire Covid pandemic was handled by the UK government. Sure, carehomes was a horrendous error too but the blatant fraud that went on as Matt Hancocks and the rest of those shysters pals robbed the government blind with PPE contracts that they clearly had no right to be getting is galling. Track and trace cost £37bn and DIDN'T WORK. For context Scotlands budget for 22-23 is £35bn. The absolute waste of resources by Westminster is criminal. We've watched the national debt double on the tories watch... they're supposed to be the stingy ones!!! I do not understand anyone that can look at this and think 'aye we couldn't do better ourselves'. 

 

Better together my ****ing arse. The asset stripping and blatant cash grab that went on is nothing less than criminal and should to any sensible person represent a nail in the coffin for the Union. 

No offence, Ill informed emotive garbage. 

[Ainsley Harriott]

18 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Cost of free University education: £627 million

 

Cost of the Tories pissing money away on Brexit, fraudulent contracts and faulty equipment: BILLIONS

 

Priorities, no?

 

 

Why revert back to Tories. My point is the SNP could have provided us with better education and health care but chose vote winning gimmicks. 

 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

I am genuinely undecided. 
 

I, like you, can’t abide the SNP. I find supporting yes now harder because of them.

Yes is nothing to do with the SNP.
Someone as intelligent as you coming out with that?

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

18 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Indeed. I reckon yes will win this time simply because Johnson is about as perfect foil as you could get for a group needing to convince the rational middle that they need to divorce from an institution he currently symbolises.

 

The independentistas just need to make sure they don’t shoot themselves in the foot between now and any potential referendum. Given the quality, or lack thereof, in their ranks, that’s easier said than done.

👍

12 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

Low turnout voter apathy knowing 40% of the population would vote for the SNP regardless of their clear failures in government.  

An election and a ref are two very different things . A ref ( well should be a permanent decision ) so people will and have thought carefully about how they would vote . Like they did the last time. 

[Roxy Hearts]

8 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

becuase unlike many we can see through SNP fake propaganda, we realise that the big bad tories aren’t actually the root cause of RBR problem realise we will be fundamentally poorer. 

SNP propaganda? We've had British propaganda thrown at us all my life! 

 

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I don’t think the question is whether or not the undecided are big fans of Westminster; more that the leap into the unknown which Indy represents could cause things to get even worse. There’s no guarantee either way so, for those who are not drawn in by the nationalist sentiment, they’d only be voting because they don’t like the Tories. That’d be a pretty high stakes and risky protest vote. Surely you can understand that?

I'm not drawn on nationalist sentiment as that works both ways, Scottish and British so couldn't care less. I'm talking about making our own decisions, having economists and administrations working on behalf of the people who live here.

 

All parties would produce manifestos and we would vote accordingly. WE would be taking responsibility and not blaming anyone else. We would at least have the opportunity to vote out failing governments!

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

They are front and centre, bud. 

I can’t ****ing stand this lot. I’ll never be No. 

[Unknown user]

22 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Just like the yes voters who are on the same side as the bitter, England/English-hating xenophobes, then? 

No, they're not unionists at all jonesy.

[OTT]

1 minute ago, kingantti1874 said:

No offence, Ill informed emotive garbage. 

 

Which part is wrong? 

 

The Tories quite happily signed off on £37bn to Dido Harding, our countries budget is £35bn 

Michelle Mone received £200m from providing shite standard PPE, she's currently under investigation for fraud (oh and a place in the house of Lords! A true beacon of morality and leader among us!!)

Matt Hancock handed £40m over to some pub landlord that was his mate for providing more substandard PPE

 

Is providing substandard essential equipment for front line medical staff when you have zero experience in the field and that equipment turns out to be of such a low standard that it can't be used not a cash grab? The fact that these ****ers are being investigated for fraud should speak volumes. The cronyism reeks to high heaven and its been utterly shameless. What they've done is reprehensible, whilst folk were dying these ****ers were lining their own pockets and having parties without a care in the world. 

 

You know damn well the Tories actions throughout this pandemic have been horrendous, but rather than even attempt to address the points its 'ill informed emotive garbage'. Absolute nonsense, its factually accurate and hurts because its true. 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Fair points re economists and administrators.

 

 

I thought all my points were fair Jonesy 😁

[Pans Jambo]

18 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

No offence, Ill informed emotive garbage. 

Which part of his post was wrong or “ill informed”?

Just so, you know, im informed. 

 

[Ray Gin]

20 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Why revert back to Tories. My point is the SNP could have provided us with better education and health care but chose vote winning gimmicks. 

 

 

Free tuition fees = more students able to access Uni education = better education

 

Free prescriptions = people who can't afford medicines getting access to treatment = better health care

Edited June 14, 2022 by Ray Gin

[Jeffros Furios]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

Which part is wrong? 

 

The Tories quite happily signed off on £37bn to Dido Harding, our countries budget is £35bn 

Michelle Mone received £200m from providing shite standard PPE, she's currently under investigation for fraud (oh and a place in the house of Lords! A true beacon of morality and leader among us!!)

Matt Hancock handed £40m over to some pub landlord that was his mate for providing more substandard PPE

 

Is providing substandard essential equipment for front line medical staff when you have zero experience in the field and that equipment turns out to be of such a low standard that it can't be used not a cash grab? The fact that these ****ers are being investigated for fraud should speak volumes. The cronyism reeks to high heaven and its been utterly shameless. What they've done is reprehensible, whilst folk were dying these ****ers were lining their own pockets and having parties without a care in the world. 

 

You know damn well the Tories actions throughout this pandemic have been horrendous, but rather than even attempt to address the points its 'ill informed emotive garbage'. Absolute nonsense, its factually accurate and hurts because its true. 

 

I was about to give him a 

[Greedy Jambo]

It's always going to be a risk, none of us know for sure if it will work, but when Boris can't tell you what a loaf of bread costs, but can tell you what a bottle of champagne costs... 

 

I didn't vote last time, but it's a yes from me now. 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I'd rather be run by our idiots, than their idiots. 

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

28 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I am genuinely undecided. 
 

I, like you, can’t abide the SNP. I find supporting yes now harder because of them.

The SNP (and more so the Greens nowadays) are the political vehicle to take control of securing independence. After that then politics in Scotland becomes better and more accountable for everyone. That’s not hard to understand surely? 

[Unknown user]

16 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

You ken what I meant. Stop shitposting on this serious thread.

We're talking about whether he's a unionist or not though

[Taffin]

For me it's like being told to pick one of two boxes:

 

Box 1 - I lose 10 grand

 

Box 2 - I lose 50 grand, but it might have a million quid in it

 

I'd pick box 2 every time. The risk is worth it. I don't buy into "better the devil you know" thinking.

[Gizmo]

2 minutes ago, Dennis Reynolds said:

I'd rather be run by our idiots, than their idiots. 

 

 

Must be some people at least now believing that absolutely no-one could do a worse job than the current UK govt. They literally couldn't be more shite if they tried. 
 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So why exactly does Sturgeon think that doing a Catalunya actually does anything? I am presuming the Unionist parties are going to boycott this idea and the only campaign will be Yes but there won't be electoral conditions.

 

Let's say the vote is then 99% Yes as a result of a boycott. Does she then declare UDI? Look at how that went in Barca and its environs.

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

So why exactly does Sturgeon think that doing a Catalunya actually does anything? I am presuming the Unionist parties are going to boycott this idea and the only campaign will be Yes but there won't be electoral conditions.

 

Let's say the vote is then 99% Yes as a result of a boycott. Does she then declare UDI? Look at how that went in Barca and its environs.

Why can’t the UK government just agree to the clear mandate like they did in 2014?

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

That’s just an emotional post. We both know there isn’t any real substance to that point. 

Name one reason you reckon we shouldn’t be independent and I will rip it apart. You’ve already proven your logic is garnered from the MSM and all you care about is yourself, WTAF is Me-ist 🤦🏽. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

Why can’t the UK government just agree to the clear mandate like they did in 2014?

Why should they though? The simple response of 2014 being "once in a generation" doesn't mean that 8 years is a replay.

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

So why exactly does Sturgeon think that doing a Catalunya actually does anything? I am presuming the Unionist parties are going to boycott this idea and the only campaign will be Yes but there won't be electoral conditions.

 

Let's say the vote is then 99% Yes as a result of a boycott. Does she then declare UDI? Look at how that went in Barca and its environs.

She’s already said she won’t do it unless it’s legal. Why do you think the U.K. government shouldn’t agree to it? Does she ever do anything that’s not been coldly calculated?

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Why should they though? The simple response of 2014 being "once in a generation" doesn't mean that 8 years is a replay.

What’s a political generation? You’re from NI aren’t you? According to the GFA it’s 7 years between refs.

 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Why should they though? The simple response of 2014 being "once in a generation" doesn't mean that 8 years is a replay.

Only Sturgeon and Salmond used that term, it’s not in the Edinburgh agreement, it has no legal basis. 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

I don’t think the Green Party will appreciate being labelled a vehicle, Spacey.

 

Politicians in Holyrood would be as incompetent, bent and petty as they are now. The SNP could just as easily hold power for several generations to come. That’s not a Scotland I fancy.

Which politicians are bent, incompetent and petty today in Holyrood? 

[Pasquale for King]

11 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

The SNP (and more so the Greens nowadays) are the political vehicle to take control of securing independence. After that then politics in Scotland becomes better and more accountable for everyone. That’s not hard to understand surely? 

You would think so eh, maybe you need a void in your life to get it 😆?!?!

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

What’s a political generation? You’re from NI aren’t you? According to the GFA it’s 7 years between refs.

 

Beat me to that. 

[Lord Montpelier]

50 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Every other country in Europe also has vaccines.

 

 

Not every other country in Europe created the early Oxford vaccine. Something the combined efforts from the science community across the UK can be justifiably proud of. A little recognition of that from people like your good self wouldn't go amiss on occasion. 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Only Sturgeon and Salmond used that term, it’s not in the Edinburgh agreement, it has no legal basis. 

Correct. Embarrassing nonsense. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

We’re also using the same formula you typed for criticising posters who vote the same way as undesirables to apply to your own situation.

I wasn't criticising anyone, I was saying that KA is a pragmatic unionist while Huns are ideological unionists.

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Only Sturgeon and Salmond used that term, it’s not in the Edinburgh agreement, it has no legal basis. 

So the 2 SNP 'heavyweights' lied then. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Only Sturgeon and Salmond used that term, it’s not in the Edinburgh agreement, it has no legal basis. 

 

Neither is material change.

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

You would think so eh, maybe you need a void in your life to get it 😆?!?!

England has 533 MP’s, mostly concentrated around the SEc or something and we have 59?

 

I’m up for that type of democracy said no one ever.