jack D and coke Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Lord BJ said: Think you’ve had more seltzers and gelato than me bud 😂 It was just my piss poor attempt, at humour, I didn’t expect that response. take it easy 👍 Godammit….For once I’ve no touched any tonight😬😬😂 Apologies for pishing on yir chips there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 3 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said: No, happy with what I wrote, and then changed (sorry). If they were happy to stand down after achieving what they are looking for, it would prove they weren't in it for themselves and actually believed in what they were standing for. As things are, I truly believe that all they, and the rest of these political charlatans want is access to power and money. That's why I said Westminster MP's. They want out of there, so if they succeed, they've done the job and they can leave Scotland to the MSP'S we already have. They're simply not required. It's an interesting double standard, I'll grant you that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 10 hours ago, jack D and coke said: I’ll clear up my hoose jock jibes it’s basically aimed at a couple of posters who don’t have the minerals to get into a debate about it. I have best pals on the other side of this as most people will I’d imagine. As for the post I don’t think I know better or am better than someone in England. It’s the laziest assumption going that somehow we don’t like the English and it boils my piss as much as any tartan tranny jibe etc. For a start England has different priorities than we do, immigration being one of them. They don’t appear to want many now and we need them but we can’t do anything about it. Energy policy is also reserved we can’t make proper decisions that would benefit the whole country. We are resource rich and pay the highest charges in Europe ffs! There’s not any real investment in those green policies in the islands and off the coasts. Also does Scotland just spend the rest of its existence dependent on hand outs? Not able to really make decisions that would benefit people here and instead tied to an economy suited to London? Jibes of being skint without getting money shoved up your arses you ungrateful jocks? People here actually trying to ram that point home too? Do I think it’s all going to be unicorns and moonbeams of course I don’t. I think sometimes that people assume we’d vote Yes on the Tuesday and we’d be independent on the Wednesday with no money or pensions etc immediately, laughable stuff. It would take time to work it all out and surely some pragmatism comes into play? You’d certainly hope so anyway. We wouldn’t get it all our own way I’m well aware. People like Nigel Farage and daft old bats like Anne Wiidicombe still have far too much to say for my liking and the English system seems to have a lot of those types, I want them nowhere near decisions anymore tbh but I can’t affect it at all. Scotland can’t as part of the union we don’t have the numbers. It’s all a bit bye the bye atm anyway innit. Good to see you posting like this. Much more persuasive that flinging shitty epithets around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japan Jambo Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 11 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Well there are two things that could persuade me to back independence. 1) A legally binding document that states that SNP will dissolve upon independence and that none of the current standing Scottish MP's from Westminster, not MSP's, will be eligible to stand for election in a new Scottish parliament for a period of 10 years, or two parliaments, whatever is longer. 2) We use Scottish election method of transferable votes and don't revert to current UK method. Put that in document and legalise it and I would be swaying towards a yes vote. Fail to do so and it will go to show that only aim is power for power sake and they're no better than Boris and co. Don't think this'll happen, it's interesting when you talk to ex politicians about how high self preservation ranks on their list of priorities. Given what many of them have to sacrifice, how hard they have to work (both to win and do the job) it becomes very clear that the walking away option isn't an easy decision. For many of these folks it's about career and not giving back sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 12 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said: Good to see you posting like this. Much more persuasive that flinging shitty epithets around... I had a right serious heed on last night Might get a bit lairy tonight🤪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 11 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said: Well there are two things that could persuade me to back independence. 1) A legally binding document that states that SNP will dissolve upon independence and that none of the current standing Scottish MP's from Westminster, not MSP's, will be eligible to stand for election in a new Scottish parliament for a period of 10 years, or two parliaments, whatever is longer. 2) We use Scottish election method of transferable votes and don't revert to current UK method. Put that in document and legalise it and I would be swaying towards a yes vote. Fail to do so and it will go to show that only aim is power for power sake and they're no better than Boris and co. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 19 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said: Don't think this'll happen, it's interesting when you talk to ex politicians about how high self preservation ranks on their list of priorities. Given what many of them have to sacrifice, how hard they have to work (both to win and do the job) it becomes very clear that the walking away option isn't an easy decision. For many of these folks it's about career and not giving back sadly. It's not going to happen because it's a ridiculous suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 12 hours ago, Lord BJ said: As a matter of interest who are all these SNP voters going to start voting for; immediately after Indy? Tories? Seems unlikely Labour? Aren’t they red tories Lib Dem? Possibly but unlikely Greens? They are wakadoo in reality Some New Party? Possibly, but initially unlikely. I’m interested? as I just don’t see it that way. Surprised s many do tbh, The SNP get first couple of terms of bounce alone and the fact this was their goal. Plus political parties enjoy power, it’s kind of why they exist. Much more so than any other aultristic motive. The SNP ain’t giving that up. That’s a gravy train. That said it’s funny reading this thread and seeing people arguing about tories or snp. It’s a system of governance, the bodies/parties that fill those positions are neither here nore there. We (Scotland) could easily elect someone/party worse than Eton mess (don’t ever underestimate how bad things can get) and RUK could elect the greatest political leader ever seen. Good and bad, is as much perception as anything else; especially in politics. A lot of this thread is just anger at people not getting what they want. Fair enough but a new system of governance doesn’t, necessarily, give you want. No doubt some ‘jock supremacist’ ( @jack D and coke and @jonesy am I doing this right😉) will tell me how Scots know so much better than English and have different values. The truth some people just have a different opinion🤷🏻♂️ Surely we just want the best for each other. I don’t get how an imagery line drawn down a tiny island changes that? What unites us is our beliefs, aspirations, goals; not where we are born. especially when it’s only a matter of hundred miles. **** I live closer to England than a fair chunck of Scotland. I get the frustration with governments, but Indy wouldn’t change people being frustrated with governments. Too many people are focussing on the wrong thing imo? Mainly cause they are embroiled in a petty ‘imaginary battle’ i also just want to thank hard seltzers and gelato 45 for this post. It’s a system of governance, nothing more. Well unless…….. I'm an SNP voter because I want independence, they don't automatically have my vote. I'll vote for whoever seems most reasonable, but it's hard to know who that'll be. I won't vote SNP though, they have no ideology apart from independence, nothing to really hang a vote on. I voted for them in the general election but not in the council election, an independence agenda is irrelevant at local level IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 7 hours ago, Smithee said: I'm an SNP voter because I want independence, they don't automatically have my vote. I'll vote for whoever seems most reasonable, but it's hard to know who that'll be. I won't vote SNP though, they have no ideology apart from independence, nothing to really hang a vote on. I voted for them in the general election but not in the council election, an independence agenda is irrelevant at local level IMO. I would hope following Independence we see a break up of the Pro-Indy parties into their more natural homes. I don't want to see a 2 party state devolve where just like down South we're confined to either one or the other. Hopefully new parties sprout up and we get greater variety in who we elect. The electoral system currently used at Holyrood thankfully makes that unlikely though which is good. Anyway, taking the current SNP, I don't see Kirsty Blackman and Joanna Cherry for example being in the same party if you remove Independence from the equation. I think it would create a much more competitive political environment as opposed to the SNP with a block vote of circa 45% of the country and the remaining Unionists fighting like ferrets in a sack over whats left (plus the greens). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Number of countries waiting on UK membership v countries waiting on EU membership. How come? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 On 16/06/2022 at 00:29, JudyJudyJudy said: Your another one hurling insults to anyone with an opposing view . Best to change tack , you’ll need to try and convince quite a few people to vote yes for Indy to Succeed . So respect and manners may help in this endeavour . Soz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Just now, Space Mackerel said: Soz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_A wehatethehibs Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Well it looks like we’re about to plummet into a recession with this out of control inflation situation, if we’re not already in one. These mini interest rate hikes are only the very beginning. Do people think that type of economic pain would work in favour of Indy or against it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said: Well it looks like we’re about to plummet into a recession with this out of control inflation situation, if we’re not already in one. These mini interest rate hikes are only the very beginning. Do people think that type of economic pain would work in favour of Indy or against it? Maybe it’s stagflation. That where all the smart “money” is on. Edited June 17, 2022 by Space Mackerel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 23 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said: Well it looks like we’re about to plummet into a recession with this out of control inflation situation, if we’re not already in one. These mini interest rate hikes are only the very beginning. Do people think that type of economic pain would work in favour of Indy or against it? Ken. Best to get your savings out the bank. Safer under your bed it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_A wehatethehibs Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said: Maybe it’s stagflation. That where al, the smart “money” is on. I don’t know a lot about it but I do know that whatever message the SNP have lined up, it’s about to get drowned out by screams of “£2.50 for a jug of milk?!?! £100 to fill a small hatchback?!?! What’s happening?!”… 15-20% price rises are imminent So in that type of economy, the SNPs case would have to revolve around independence as somehow being the answer to economic turmoil. Not out of the question that Scotland could cash in on the oil price rises, but it certainly complicates the case Nicola is going to have to make. Could be they've been planning for this and built their entire case with it in mind, or it could be it pulls the rug out from under her feet. Certainly will place the economy at the center of the debate and that’s the topic on which the 2014 Indy campaign completely crumbled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 22 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said: Certainly will place the economy at the center of the debate and that’s the topic on which the 2014 Indy campaign completely crumbled It certainly will. 2014 we were told the only way to avoid economic meltdown was to vote no. Now how's that working out for us all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 36 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said: I don’t know a lot about it but I do know that whatever message the SNP have lined up, it’s about to get drowned out by screams of “£2.50 for a jug of milk?!?! £100 to fill a small hatchback?!?! What’s happening?!”… 15-20% price rises are imminent So in that type of economy, the SNPs case would have to revolve around independence as somehow being the answer to economic turmoil. Not out of the question that Scotland could cash in on the oil price rises, but it certainly complicates the case Nicola is going to have to make. Could be they've been planning for this and built their entire case with it in mind, or it could be it pulls the rug out from under her feet. Certainly will place the economy at the center of the debate and that’s the topic on which the 2014 Indy campaign completely crumbled Do you not think should know quite a lot about it before getting into macroeconomics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Camomile tea now 90p for a box of 20 at Sainsburys Used to be 75p . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Camomile tea now 90p for a box of 20 at Sainsburys Used to be 75p . No more avocado on toast or Netflix for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: Camomile tea now 90p for a box of 20 at Sainsburys Used to be 75p . Oh the humanity 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 😄 4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: No more avocado on toast or Netflix for you. Dont eat bread. Its bad for you. Netflix tends to be a pile of pish really. 2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: Oh the humanity 😂 😄 ill survive. Just drink water between cups of camomile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 FAF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Jambo Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Yes. I cannae wait to see free lunches for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_A wehatethehibs Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 53 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: It certainly will. 2014 we were told the only way to avoid economic meltdown was to vote no. Now how's that working out for us all? Well that was my question wasn’t it. Do folk think an inflation hurricane whipping through the entire western world would will strengthen or weaken the case for Indy? It’s a difficult question isn’t it… As I said in the rest of the post, a decent enough case could be made, with the oil price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBJambo Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said: Well that was my question wasn’t it. Do folk think an inflation hurricane whipping through the entire western world would will strengthen or weaken the case for Indy? It’s a difficult question isn’t it… As I said in the rest of the post, a decent enough case could be made, with the oil price. No that can’t be right , surely it’s cause of the Tories that we are having an inflation crisis? Rest of the world are fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Jambo Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said: It certainly will. 2014 we were told the only way to avoid economic meltdown was to vote no. Now how's that working out for us all? Great. A whole generation missed an economic meltdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_A wehatethehibs Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 47 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: Do you not think should know quite a lot about it before getting into macroeconomics? No, because it affects me directly, I don’t need a PhD in it to understand that nor do I need one to discuss it. As you’ve said, your tea has gone up by 20% there. Have your wages gone up by 20%? Of course when I say I don’t know a lot about it, by that I mean I don’t have a background in economics nor do I work in financial services. But I do have some basic knowledge and yes I most definitely am I interested and paying close attention to what’s happening, and trying to follow and learn as much as I can about it. The original question was a fairly innocent one. Do folk think a global economic crisis would strengthen or weaken support for independence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 14 hours ago, Japan Jambo said: Don't think this'll happen, it's interesting when you talk to ex politicians about how high self preservation ranks on their list of priorities. Given what many of them have to sacrifice, how hard they have to work (both to win and do the job) it becomes very clear that the walking away option isn't an easy decision. For many of these folks it's about career and not giving back sadly. Did you actually take that seriously? It's just another way for MtS to say he'll be voting for independence the same day he cuts his own bollox off with an angle grinder, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 4 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said: I don’t know a lot about it but I do know that whatever message the SNP have lined up, it’s about to get drowned out by screams of “£2.50 for a jug of milk?!?! £100 to fill a small hatchback?!?! What’s happening?!”… 15-20% price rises are imminent So in that type of economy, the SNPs case would have to revolve around independence as somehow being the answer to economic turmoil. Not out of the question that Scotland could cash in on the oil price rises, but it certainly complicates the case Nicola is going to have to make. Could be they've been planning for this and built their entire case with it in mind, or it could be it pulls the rug out from under her feet. Certainly will place the economy at the center of the debate and that’s the topic on which the 2014 Indy campaign completely crumbled I'm going to be absolutely livid if in all the time since 2014 they've not managed to advance the argument/counter argument around the economy. Like it or lump it, it was a big problem, and Better Togethers 'project fear' focused heavily in on that, areas like pensions, currency and so forth need to be addressed robustly. I think the win is there, but they can't settle for just winning the democratic argument. It needs to a crushing victory and to do that they need to put forward an irrefutable economic case to win over the soft no's. People fundementally need to know that Indy will put money in their pocket and make their lives better. Otherwise, it will remain a tough ask. Sturgeons referenced papers to come out in due course, so hopefully these will address concerns around the economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said: No, because it affects me directly, I don’t need a PhD in it to understand that nor do I need one to discuss it. As you’ve said, your tea has gone up by 20% there. Have your wages gone up by 20%? Of course when I say I don’t know a lot about it, by that I mean I don’t have a background in economics nor do I work in financial services. But I do have some basic knowledge and yes I most definitely am I interested and paying close attention to what’s happening, and trying to follow and learn as much as I can about it. The original question was a fairly innocent one. Do folk think a global economic crisis would strengthen or weaken support for independence? Excuse spacey. He doesn’t understand that others need convinced sometimes. Top lad. Demented tho. Your points are valid man… You could argue that there is never a good time. I could never convince you it’s all going to be great that’s just nonsense but I don’t see what the fear is. I think the door has been slightly opened now… If you think scotland is a country (and I do) and everything they do and say points to us being one then let’s take control of it all. Scotland needs to take handouts and that’s it? It’s quite pitiful no? I don’t dislike England or the English it’s a superb place and they’re fantastic people, I love England. I think we could improve things here though and tailor things to our advantage, we have different needs as a nation. It’s maybe blind optimism but I’m not afraid of Scotland standing on its own two feet. I’m also extremely pished but I believe what I say🏴😂 Edited June 18, 2022 by jack D and coke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 24 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: Excuse spacey. He doesn’t understand that others need convinced sometimes. Top lad. Demented tho. Your points are valid man… You could argue that there is never a good time. I could never convince you it’s all going to be great that’s just nonsense but I don’t see what the fear is. I think the door has been slightly opened now… If you think scotland is a country (and I do) and everything they do and say points to us being one then let’s take control of it all. Scotland needs to take handouts and that’s it? It’s quite pitiful no? I don’t dislike England or the English it’s a superb place and they’re fantastic people, I love England. I think we could improve things here though and tailor things to our advantage, we have different needs as a nation. It’s maybe blind optimism but I’m not afraid of Scotland standing on its own two feet. I’m also extremely pished but I believe what I say🏴😂 What different “ needs “ do Scot’s have from the English ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 5 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said: What different “ needs “ do Scot’s have from the English ? Not as individuals were pretty much the same. I have an Albanian pal and he’s the same as me I’m not trying to create lines we’re all the same. I just think we could make policies suited more to our economy. I think Scotland would flourish. Maybe blind optimism I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 Scotland is a country. Then they tell us we’re subsidised…like we’re a burden. It boils my water that more than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) I appreciate countries are a bit silly etc and lines are imaginary but let’s be brutally honest here….Scotland is the greatest of all these imaginary places. Fact. Edited June 18, 2022 by jack D and coke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 7 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said: I don’t know a lot about it but I do know that whatever message the SNP have lined up, it’s about to get drowned out by screams of “£2.50 for a jug of milk?!?! £100 to fill a small hatchback?!?! What’s happening?!”… 15-20% price rises are imminent So in that type of economy, the SNPs case would have to revolve around independence as somehow being the answer to economic turmoil. Not out of the question that Scotland could cash in on the oil price rises, but it certainly complicates the case Nicola is going to have to make. Could be they've been planning for this and built their entire case with it in mind, or it could be it pulls the rug out from under her feet. Certainly will place the economy at the center of the debate and that’s the topic on which the 2014 Indy campaign completely crumbled Just so people know, the £3b Scotland have put in, so far, for the HS2 train link upgrade to and from Glasgow central have been scrapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 36 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: I appreciate countries are a bit silly etc and lines are imaginary but let’s be brutally honest here….Scotland is the greatest of all these imaginary places. Fact. Our water is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 Just now, ri Alban said: Our water is amazing. It’s cauld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 1 minute ago, jack D and coke said: It’s cauld And sellable, just like it's supercharged big brother, Whisky. Most renewables in Europe. Plenty of oil to bolster an economic structure containing 5m people. Stop overly buying from rUk. It amazes me, that no one ever mentions this, when they bring up the exports bollox with rUk. Just to remind folk. Scotland, a nation of 5.5 ish million people spend £65b+, yes, that's right, £65b+ on goods from rUK. The same rUK, with a population of 62m, that spends £50b on goods from Scotland. I'm sure we can do better there, from the off. We have no say in foreign policy, no say on governs the UK as whole, it's been proven, time and time again, that Scotland (And Wales and NI) get what England wants. England can have all they want when they and the rest of us are independent countries. Until then, they shouldn't have the right to steamroller every ***** else into their political, social and cultural identity. We're different countries, with different outlooks on things. England want to be a power on the world stage, I don't thing Scotland actually gives a feck. England wants less people, scot needs more people. And even when Scotland does go, It won't change a thing on the world map, UK and GB is England to the rest of the world, they made sure and continue to make sure everyone knows this. Then there's things like this, see if you can spot the mistakes. Scottish secretary, English secretary, Welsh secretary, NI Secretary. Anyway, Next October will have the chance to right the wrong of 2014. The UK of 2014 does not exist anymore and it's time to build an independent Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 13 minutes ago, ri Alban said: And sellable, just like it's supercharged big brother, Whisky. Most renewables in Europe. Plenty of oil to bolster an economic structure containing 5m people. Stop overly buying from rUk. It amazes me, that no one ever mentions this, when they bring up the exports bollox with rUk. Just to remind folk. Scotland, a nation of 5.5 ish million people spend £65b+, yes, that's right, £65b+ on goods from rUK. The same rUK, with a population of 62m, that spends £50b on goods from Scotland. I'm sure we can do better there, from the off. We have no say in foreign policy, no say on who governs the UK as a whole, it's been proven, time and time again, that Scotland (And Wales and NI) get what England wants. England can have all they want when they and the rest of us are independent countries. Until then, they shouldn't have the right to steamroller every ***** else into their political, social and cultural identity. We're different countries, with different outlooks on things. England want to be a power on the world stage, I don't thing Scotland actually gives a feck. England wants less people, scot needs more people. And even when Scotland does go, It won't change a thing on the world map, The UK and GB is England to the rest of the world, they made sure and continue to make sure everyone knows this. Then there's things like this, see if you can spot the mistakes. Scottish secretary, English secretary, Welsh secretary, NI Secretary. Anyway, Next October Scotland will have the chance to right the wrong of 2014. The UK of 2014 does not exist anymore and it's time to build an independent Scotland. Edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 6 hours ago, OTT said: I'm going to be absolutely livid if in all the time since 2014 they've not managed to advance the argument/counter argument around the economy. Like it or lump it, it was a big problem, and Better Togethers 'project fear' focused heavily in on that, areas like pensions, currency and so forth need to be addressed robustly. I think the win is there, but they can't settle for just winning the democratic argument. It needs to a crushing victory and to do that they need to put forward an irrefutable economic case to win over the soft no's. People fundementally need to know that Indy will put money in their pocket and make their lives better. Otherwise, it will remain a tough ask. Sturgeons referenced papers to come out in due course, so hopefully these will address concerns around the economy. The problem with that, and I agree with you BTW, is that it just won't make people better off. The opposite will happen. If Scotland is so economically secure, then why not just switch off Barnett now? Stop taking money from The Treasury and let's raise it all ourselves. That's what Independence ultimately is, so let's see what it looks like now. What Nationalists don't understand about the majority, is that for most people, the argument for staying in the EU, is the same argument for remaining in the UK. Better to be inside and trying to fix it than leaving. Dismissing the majority view as being held by Union Jack waving right wing loyalists doesn't appear to be successfully moving the middle ground towards supporting breaking up the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 2 hours ago, pablo said: The problem with that, and I agree with you BTW, is that it just won't make people better off. The opposite will happen. If Scotland is so economically secure, then why not just switch off Barnett now? Stop taking money from The Treasury and let's raise it all ourselves. That's what Independence ultimately is, so let's see what it looks like now. What Nationalists don't understand about the majority, is that for most people, the argument for staying in the EU, is the same argument for remaining in the UK. Better to be inside and trying to fix it than leaving. Dismissing the majority view as being held by Union Jack waving right wing loyalists doesn't appear to be successfully moving the middle ground towards supporting breaking up the UK. First part, you can't say we will be worse off, you think/hope that's the case. Second part, the SNP have been calling for full fiscal powers for years but Westminster won't allow it; you have to wonder why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 5 minutes ago, XB52 said: First part, you can't say we will be worse off, you think/hope that's the case. Second part, the SNP have been calling for full fiscal powers for years but Westminster won't allow it; you have to wonder why. Sturgeon has just admitted we'll be worse off initially. Only last week. Independence's worst enemy is the unicorn fornicators who never address the concerns of the majority. That's the only way you'll ever realise your dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, pablo said: Sturgeon has just admitted we'll be worse off initially. Only last week. Independence's worst enemy is the unicorn fornicators who never address the concerns of the majority. That's the only way you'll ever realise your dream. And you're off with typical unionist abuse. Pathetic. At least I tried by giving you facts about full fiscal automony, just wasting my time. Have a good day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 4 minutes ago, XB52 said: And you're off with typical unionist abuse. Pathetic. At least I tried by giving you facts about full fiscal automony, just wasting my time. Have a good day You too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 8 minutes ago, jonesy said: Had a gander. Do you reckon the SG will align itself strongly - perhaps even bindingly? - to a plan such as this prior to a second referendum? None of us know, I'm sure it'll be brought up though! But when I think about it are there many examples of governments doing that kind of thing? It seems a pretty mental idea when no one has any idea how circumstances might change in the future. Look at us in winter 2019, Stendel's taken over, we're all excited at the new chapter. Who thought there would be a national lockdown, furlough, chaos, the Tory government thieving billions from the Exchequer? You never know what's around the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, jonesy said: Mate, if you're ever struggling for cash, you could always start charging those Tories that are currently residing rent-free in yer heid! Anyways, I'd like to think that a coalition willing and seemingly able to change the constitutional arrangement by which we are governed would have - and would be shouting from the rooftops in order to convince the doubters and the fence sitters - some kind of concrete plan in place re the economic viability of their actions, and not to avoid doing so just in case some ravenous Wuhan worker gets a hankering for bat noodles again one lunchtime between now and then. I have a big ****ing problem with the current Westminster government, you should too. Oh, and I'm very much struggling for cash, I'm unemployed under a Tory government! Edited June 18, 2022 by Smithee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 4 minutes ago, jonesy said: Of course I do. Doesn't stop me being able to see the potential issues around independence, however. Look bud, I respect your opinion on most things, but it's clear that you are blinded by your hatred of the London government to have a critical discussion of the pros and cons of indy. I understand the hatred - I grew up in a house where the IRA would have been more welcome than a Tory - but this is getting silly. But your conflation of healthy scepticism and genuine questioning around Sturgeon's plans with being a fervent unionist is as unhelpful as it is disconnected from the truth. There are threads, such as the very active 'Tory Lies' one where you can sound off about that kinda stuff. Can't we use this one to discuss the merits, issues and find common ground on where the proponents of ScIndy perhaps need to address the concerns of those fence-sitters/undecideds needed to vote with them, and keep the Tories out of it? You can do what you like in the thread bud, I'm not going to stop you. But I'm not part of any campaign, I'm just some gobshite on the internet and I think it would be in our best interests to be able to vote a government out when they make an absolute rip roaring ***** of things. The details of independence are unknown to all of us, why would I involve in such a murky debate just now when it's all innuendo and the big picture is so very, very clear? Scotland deserves a government that exists for Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 The Tories' continued electoral success despite ****ery and incompetence of the highest order is relevant as hell here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambomjm74 Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 22 minutes ago, Smithee said: The Tories' continued electoral success despite ****ery and incompetence of the highest order is relevant as hell here. The Conservative govt was voted in due to the “jam tomorrow” nationalism Brexit. Where a majority of the U.K. population voted for Brexit. The SNP was voted in due to the “jam tomorrow” nationalism Scexit. Difference being the majority of Scots voted against Scexit. Both Govts rode the Nationalist “jam tomorrow” feeding of, in many cases legitimate grievances or concerns … but both have failed and blame either Europe or WestMinster. Flagship causes such as addressing “attainment gap” “education” in Scotland have failed and it’s someone else’s fault. The Tories can’t even work out how to trade freely in the U.K. and whether it’s ok to have a party during a pandemic. Both Govts are failures by any reasonable review. The biggest failure is seeing Nationalism as some sort of cure to all the worlds ills and hiding behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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