Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jambomjm74 said:

The Conservative govt was voted in due to the “jam tomorrow” nationalism Brexit. Where a majority of the U.K. population voted for Brexit. 
The SNP was voted in due to the “jam tomorrow” nationalism Scexit. Difference being the majority of Scots voted against Scexit. 
Both Govts rode the Nationalist “jam tomorrow” feeding of, in many cases legitimate grievances or concerns … but both have failed and blame either Europe or WestMinster. 
Flagship causes such as addressing “attainment gap” “education” in Scotland have failed and it’s someone else’s fault. 
The Tories can’t even work out how to trade freely in the U.K. and whether it’s ok to have a party during a pandemic. 

Both Govts are failures by any reasonable review. 
The biggest failure is seeing Nationalism as some sort of cure to all the worlds ills and hiding behind it. 

 

The Scottish government aren't one of the alternatives here

[XB52]

People keep going on about no plans after independence then some of the same posters complain that the SG are fixated over independence when they start producing plans. The referendum is 16 months away and papers are being produced over the next few months detailing plans for after independence. Not sure what more the SG can do but, no matter what they do, it will be attacked by the unionists. 

[Unknown user]

29 minutes ago, jonesy said:

 

Because I'd imagine a fair chunk of those who are less certain of their voting intentions could be swayed by the production of definitive plans for what actually happens in the event of a victory.

 

As it is, we run the risk of ending up like those Hibs fans that ran on the pitch to celebrate winning the cup. Nothing to do but pagger and end up regretting their actions.

 

It's interesting to note the amount of people who've told me how I should be discussing this subject.

 

All I'm hearing is "Will you please stop playing your strongest cards?'

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

I'm looking forward to seeing them, TBH.

 

And, yes, of course the SG will be attacked by unionists, just like anything unionists do is attacked by independentistas. It's all part of the football scarf politics.

 

Those who are more pragmatically inclined are somehow dismissed, ignored or criticised, sadly.

More pragmatically inclined?

 

I'm very much pragmatically inclined, that's why I want a government we can vote out, that's why I want away from being dominated by another nation.

It's also why I favour a different type of union with the rest of the uk rather than fences at the border.

[jambomjm74]

8 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The Scottish government aren't one of the alternatives here

I would agree.
They are doing an awful job with the powers they have and blaming others. 
Trying to convince people of “jam tomorrow” whilst failing at their day job. 
 

 

[Unknown user]

Just now, jonesy said:

Nobody is telling you anything; stop acting like a Celtic fan, Shmhithy.

 

Interesting that you use a 'card' description, because until we, the people of Scotland, are able to see how an independent Scotland would look, your argument is composed of an entire house of them.

 

"Scotland deserves a government that exists for Scotland" isn't a house of cards.

[jambomjm74]

10 minutes ago, XB52 said:

People keep going on about no plans after independence then some of the same posters complain that the SG are fixated over independence when they start producing plans. The referendum is 16 months away and papers are being produced over the next few months detailing plans for after independence. Not sure what more the SG can do but, no matter what they do, it will be attacked by the unionists. 

There is no referendum.. as it stands. 
Anyone who truly believes this is 16 months away is deluded. 
 

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, XB52 said:

People keep going on about no plans after independence then some of the same posters complain that the SG are fixated over independence when they start producing plans. The referendum is 16 months away and papers are being produced over the next few months detailing plans for after independence. Not sure what more the SG can do but, no matter what they do, it will be attacked by the unionists. 

It sometimes appears the unionists hide under the blanket of Union Jackism with their disregard/disrespect of constant, contorted barbs against their own people. I can't get it into my head why they think we're the only country in the world whereby we can't govern ourselves.

 

This isn't about the SNP or nationalism, it's about voting for governments with policies that best suit our needs. There are far more poorer countries than Scotland and they're quite happy making their own decisions. 

 

I've no idea about macroeconomics and neither do most people. All governments have administrations working on their behalf to produce policies for their countries. 

 

Most of the unionists talk about losing/gaining money so that tells you a lot about them. Most independence supporters talk about self respect and making our own decisions like most human beings.

[XB52]

32 minutes ago, jambomjm74 said:

There is no referendum.. as it stands. 
Anyone who truly believes this is 16 months away is deluded. 
 

Anyone who truly believes that Scotland is better off being ruled by Westminster tories is bat shit mental

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

It's nothing more than a slogan.

 

The SG exists to perpetuate and promote its idea of how Scottish society ought to look and to simultaneously allow the faction of the day to gain for themselves and their backers/funders. They will do what's best for them, not necessarily for, the frankly nebulous idea of, 'the nation'.

 

It's a lot more than a slogan, it's the basic principle behind this whole thing.

 

Scotland deserves a government that exists for Scotland.

[pablo]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

It sometimes appears the unionists hide under the blanket of Union Jackism with their disregard/disrespect of constant, contorted barbs against their own people. I can't get it into my head why they think we're the only country in the world whereby we can't govern ourselves.

 

This isn't about the SNP or nationalism, it's about voting for governments with policies that best suit our needs. There are far more poorer countries than Scotland and they're quite happy making their own decisions. 

 

I've no idea about macroeconomics and neither do most people. All governments have administrations working on their behalf to produce policies for their countries. 

 

Most of the unionists talk about losing/gaining money so that tells you a lot about them. Most independence supporters talk about self respect and making our own decisions like most human beings.

 

It's because your starting point is a them and us situation and everything stems from there.

 

What you don't understand or appreciate is not everyone thinks like that. 

[Space Mackerel]

So funny. A window into a Scoth Yoons mind. He actually thinks he’s English. 😁

 

 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

We're not getting anywhere here, mate. 

 

Yer like a walking election leaflet!

 

I'm just putting forward a very strong argument for independence.

 

Do you not agree that Scotland deserves a government that exists for Scotland?

[Roxy Hearts]

16 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's because your starting point is a them and us situation and everything stems from there.

 

What you don't understand or appreciate is not everyone thinks like that. 

Only my opinion bud. There are those who wish to be governed by "them" and there are those who wish to be governed by "us". 

 

Why don't you understand or appreciate........

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

That's cool, you've convinced yourself that a slogan or tagline is a meaningful thing.

 

Governments do what's best by their own ideology and with their careers in mind. It'd be naive to think otherwise.

You don't think Scotland deserves a government with the sole purpose of governing Scotland?

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, jonesy said:

After seeing the pros and cons, I don't think I care enough, TBH.  

Fair enough, that's your prerogative. There are plenty who do care about their children being able to hold future governments to account.

[Boof]

In the cabinet of the UK government, here's a Northern Ireland Office, a Scotland Office and a Wales Office each with their own cabinet secretary.

 

Why wouldn't there be an England Office?

[Roxy Hearts]

12 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Ha! You'd label a Mongolian herdsman who hadn't even heard of Scotland as a unionist because he didn't tell you he was a keen independence voter.  

Not really Jonesy. If people wish to be governed by Westminster and believe in the union, I think they're unionists. If they believe in the people of Scotland governing themselves then they're not a unionist. It's not a bad word, it's quite factual and nothing to be ashamed of. 

 

Independence has always been a struggle for countries who wish to secede from the British Establishment due to propaganda, wars and made up nonsense.I love the fact that I loathe it!

 

I like England and English people immensely, I also have English family and great friends. I'd love to see more St George's crosses other than that UJ rag! Have a great day and a few 🍻 as I will be later 👍

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

My kids are arseholes. Hope they get the Sturgeon/Johnson combo of ineptitude and corruption for years to come.

 

So you do accept that the status quo represents ineptitude and corruption now and in the future, that's something at least.

[dobmisterdobster]

7 minutes ago, Boof said:

In the cabinet of the UK government, here's a Northern Ireland Office, a Scotland Office and a Wales Office each with their own cabinet secretary.

 

Why wouldn't there be an England Office?

 

The UK Government administers England directly. Some English regions have devolution but not the country as a whole.

 

The Scotland Office (and Wales, NI etc) is there to manage the UK Government's presence in these countries.

[JudyJudyJudy]

56 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

It's because your starting point is a them and us situation and everything stems from there.

 

What you don't understand or appreciate is not everyone thinks like that. 

See thats the problem.  I recall in my Yes days of 2014 getting caught up in the tidal wave of euphoria that WE were going to vote YES.  There was no doubt.  Everyone i spoke to , friends and family who supported it, the groups i was a member of on social media, the comments section on various Yes facebook pages .  All optimistic that it would be a yes.  Only problem was I didnt speak to anyone who was a no ( apart from one of my nieces) . I didn't know any Nos.  They were the silent majority. And they still are. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

The UK Government administers England directly. Some English regions have devolution but not the country as a whole.

 

The Scotland Office (and Wales, NI etc) is there to manage the UK Government's presence in these countries.

Yes, we know. But why?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

They were the silent majority. And they still are. 

today I will be mostly saying what silent people think.

[Boof]

10 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

The UK Government administers England directly. Some English regions have devolution but not the country as a whole.

 

The Scotland Office (and Wales, NI etc) is there to manage the UK Government's presence in these countries.

 

So why no cabinet office position for these devolved English regions?

Any idea what regions ARE devolved?

 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Boof said:

 

So why no cabinet office position for these devolved English regions?

Any idea what regions ARE devolved?

 

Is Scotland the equivalent of an English region now?

[Roxy Hearts]

19 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

See thats the problem.  I recall in my Yes days of 2014 getting caught up in the tidal wave of euphoria that WE were going to vote YES.  There was no doubt.  Everyone i spoke to , friends and family who supported it, the groups i was a member of on social media, the comments section on various Yes facebook pages .  All optimistic that it would be a yes.  Only problem was I didnt speak to anyone who was a no ( apart from one of my nieces) . I didn't know any Nos.  They were the silent majority. And they still are. 

Do you think some No's were embarrassed 🤣

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Do you think some No's were embarrassed 🤣

No. I just think they were quietly confident they would win so didnt need to make a noise. 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

So funny. A window into a Scoth Yoons mind. He actually thinks he’s English. 😁

 

 

He’s almost being positive about Scotland there. Made us sound quite valuable 😂

That GBeebies is Scotland hating drivel it really is. Every thing I watch on there howls down at us for daring to think anything other than get under WM’s boot you jumped up jocks. 

[Roxy Hearts]

13 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

No. I just think they were quietly confident they would win so didnt need to make a noise. 

I've got "No" voting friends and family. Some just talk puerile drivel, some anti SNP(as if that's the reason for independence), some usual UJ waving nonsense but hardly any with insightful reasons to stay! It's not as if they're not intelligent, it's more like unionist bingo! 

 

My wife and youngest daughter like Cole-Hamilton because he's on FB, my brother thinks QE2 is QE2 of Scotland. I tried telling him she's QE1 in Scotland! People will vote Yes and No for a myriad of reasons but I've generally found No voters to be less inclined to discuss reasons probably because they believe in independence but not convinced and too much Establishment propaganda.

 

[dobmisterdobster]

32 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Is Scotland the equivalent of an English region now?

 

Not at all. Scotland is more autonomous than any English region including Greater London.

[Roxy Hearts]

3 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

Not at all. Scotland is more autonomous than any English region including Greater London.

London sucks the life out of the rest of the UK. Why not federalise it?

[JudyJudyJudy]

27 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I've got "No" voting friends and family. Some just talk puerile drivel, some anti SNP(as if that's the reason for independence), some usual UJ waving nonsense but hardly any with insightful reasons to stay! It's not as if they're not intelligent, it's more like unionist bingo! 

 

My wife and youngest daughter like Cole-Hamilton because he's on FB, my brother thinks QE2 is QE2 of Scotland. I tried telling him she's QE1 in Scotland! People will vote Yes and No for a myriad of reasons but I've generally found No voters to be less inclined to discuss reasons probably because they believe in independence but not convinced and too much Establishment propaganda.

 

Good posting 

[pablo]

36 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

London sucks the life out of the rest of the UK. Why not federalise it?

 

Or London pays for the rest of the UK? It's an asset.

 

That said,  there does need to be a levelling up across the country. Certainly not just the Tory soundbite.

 

Ever spend time in Manchester? Devolved powers and it's boomtown.

[Don Dan]

Just now, pablo said:

Ever spend time in Manchester? Devolved powers and it's boomtown.

 
Good management 

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Or London pays for the rest of the UK? It's an asset.

 

That said,  there does need to be a levelling up across the country. Certainly not just the Tory soundbite.

 

Ever spend time in Manchester? Devolved powers and it's boomtown.

I don't agree with the London part, after all they get most of the taxes! 

 

Great to see other parts of the UK doing well. I'm too cynical to comment further 🤣

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

No. I just think they were quietly confident they would win so didnt need to make a noise. 

The resident separatists on jkb confirm the old adage that empty vessels make most noise 

[Unknown user]

24 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Ever spend time in Manchester? Devolved powers and it's boomtown.

 

Oh really? Ask the people of Ordsall what they think Media City's done for them.

[Ked]

4 hours ago, XB52 said:

People keep going on about no plans after independence then some of the same posters complain that the SG are fixated over independence when they start producing plans. The referendum is 16 months away and papers are being produced over the next few months detailing plans for after independence. Not sure what more the SG can do but, no matter what they do, it will be attacked by the unionists. 

Not sure what more the SG can do to produce an outline to what an independent Scotland will look like?

If they have no idea what their plan is they're going to fail miserablely and so they should.

They've had decades to work out the mechanics of it.

They're the Scottish Nationalist Party ffs.

 

Imo Scotland needs to govern itself but as I've posted plenty of times that governance cannot be high dependency on public employment or high taxes .

It has to be a wealth creating economic answer and that will not be easy for a lot of the independence movement to accept.

There's a strong economic case for independence that comes in the guise of Liberal capitalism.

Scotland by nature is conservative .

 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Of course. I just don't see why we need to spend time and money to cause further division just to end up pretty much back where we are at the moment.

Then vote yes

[Unknown user]

19 minutes ago, Ked said:

Not sure what more the SG can do to produce an outline to what an independent Scotland will look like?

If they have no idea what their plan is they're going to fail miserablely and so they should.

They've had decades to work out the mechanics of it.

They're the Scottish Nationalist Party ffs.

 

Imo Scotland needs to govern itself but as I've posted plenty of times that governance cannot be high dependency on public employment or high taxes .

It has to be a wealth creating economic answer and that will not be easy for a lot of the independence movement to accept.

There's a strong economic case for independence that comes in the guise of Liberal capitalism.

Scotland by nature is conservative .

 

 

What plans do Westminster have for our future? They've had centuries to work it out, and this is what we have?

[Ked]

2 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Do you think some No's were embarrassed 🤣

No probably just couldn't be arsed with the face painted twats .

Some of the no voters I know surprised me.

Only really questioning the pragmatism of pensions and the transfer of services that are in place.

These things are not as easy as its made out to be.

Brexit is a good example where different interests come into play.

A lot I suspect just don't care that much.

3 hours ago, Smithee said:

You don't think Scotland deserves a government with the sole purpose of governing Scotland?

Why does Scotland deserve anything?

It's one of the least deserving countries in the world.It had its chance for independence without the need to rid itself through any struggle of any despotic power.

It has by any measurable means one of the highest standards of living in the world.

But still we stuff ourselves full of Greg's drugs and alcohol.

We are the unhealthiest nation in Europe.

Scotland deserves what it's got .

A nationalist party with a majority in a PR parliament a majority of nationalists in Westminster that cannot give a detailed blueprint for an independent Scotland.

We deserve fek all bar what we get and we are lucky to have that.

Much of it built upon the enslavement and oppression of others.

Definitely not Scottish people.

 

I will vote for independence .Imo anyone who is conservative minded should.

The drip drip effect of the barnet formula has made us fat and lazy as a nation

 

[Ked]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

What plans do Westminster have for our future? They've had centuries to work it out, and this is what we have?

Plans are laid out in Parties manifestos in an existing framework.

Don't be fekin stupid Smithee.

 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Ked said:

Why does Scotland deserve anything?

 

Because we're an ancient nation being governed by another, and they're making a massive ***** of it.

 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Ked said:

Plans are laid out in Parties manifestos in an existing framework.

Don't be fekin stupid Smithee.

 

But seriously, what plans do they have for Scotland? The status quo? Massive deficit and debt?

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

But seriously, what plans do they have for Scotland? The status quo? Massive deficit and debt?

The current lot have plans only for themselves Smithee.

I don't need convinced.

I want independence.

But it's not just"yoons" that need convincing.

It's people who want to know the mechanics of what it means.

You have your answers .

They don't.They also worry about the next generation  and many are comfortable ,well paid ,housed etc.

 

Scotland imo will never shift from the position we are in until we govern ourselves.

Me and you are on a football forum discussing this.

People in general are not as passionate about it as they were or you are.

But no ones falling for the whataboutery anymore.It has to be imo a detailed plan with the backing of conservative minded people.

The current approach is doomed to failure.

[Ked]

23 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Of course. I just don't see why we need to spend time and money to cause further division just to end up pretty much back where we are at the moment.

Are you conservative (not tory)?

[Roxy Hearts]

37 minutes ago, Ked said:

Not sure what more the SG can do to produce an outline to what an independent Scotland will look like?

If they have no idea what their plan is they're going to fail miserablely and so they should.

They've had decades to work out the mechanics of it.

They're the Scottish Nationalist Party ffs.

 

Imo Scotland needs to govern itself but as I've posted plenty of times that governance cannot be high dependency on public employment or high taxes .

It has to be a wealth creating economic answer and that will not be easy for a lot of the independence movement to accept.

There's a strong economic case for independence that comes in the guise of Liberal capitalism.

Scotland by nature is conservative .

 

It's the Scottish "National" Party!

 

14 minutes ago, Ked said:

No probably just couldn't be arsed with the face painted twats .

Some of the no voters I know surprised me.

Only really questioning the pragmatism of pensions and the transfer of services that are in place.

These things are not as easy as its made out to be.

Brexit is a good example where different interests come into play.

A lot I suspect just don't care that much.

Why does Scotland deserve anything?

It's one of the least deserving countries in the world.It had its chance for independence without the need to rid itself through any struggle of any despotic power.

It has by any measurable means one of the highest standards of living in the world.

But still we stuff ourselves full of Greg's drugs and alcohol.

We are the unhealthiest nation in Europe.

Scotland deserves what it's got .

A nationalist party with a majority in a PR parliament a majority of nationalists in Westminster that cannot give a detailed blueprint for an independent Scotland.

We deserve fek all bar what we get and we are lucky to have that.

Much of it built upon the enslavement and oppression of others.

Definitely not Scottish people.

 

I will vote for independence .Imo anyone who is conservative minded should.

The drip drip effect of the barnet formula has made us fat and lazy as a nation

 

Let's get rid of Barnett and stand on our own two feet. Vote in a party that puts forward the best policies and vote them out if they fail!

[Ked]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

It's the Scottish "National" Party!

Ooops

 

Let's get rid of Barnett and stand on our own two feet. Vote in a party that puts forward the best policies and vote them out if they fail!

Agree .

It's not me that needs convincing though.

Although unless it's a conservative(which the SNP have been with a small c) minded government with radical tax and spend it's not going to be pretty.

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, Ked said:

The current lot have plans only for themselves Smithee.

I don't need convinced.

I want independence.

But it's not just"yoons" that need convincing.

It's people who want to know the mechanics of what it means.

You have your answers .

They don't.They also worry about the next generation  and many are comfortable ,well paid ,housed etc.

 

Scotland imo will never shift from the position we are in until we govern ourselves.

Me and you are on a football forum discussing this.

People in general are not as passionate about it as they were or you are.

But no ones falling for the whataboutery anymore.It has to be imo a detailed plan with the backing of conservative minded people.

The current approach is doomed to failure.

I don't agree, it needs 51% of those who vote to think it's a good idea.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

Agree .

It's not me that needs convincing though.

Although unless it's a conservative(which the SNP have been with a small c) minded government with radical tax and spend it's not going to be pretty.

I would probably vote small c Conservative(not British type like Davison and Ross). I am ex Labour and the likes of Starmer, Sarwar and Murray types give me the fear.