Should Scotland be an independent country?

[ri Alban]

@jack D and coke @trotter. 👍. 

 

https://weegiefifer.scot/?p=2911# 

 

 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

18 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

@jack D and coke @trotter. 👍. 

 

https://weegiefifer.scot/?p=2911# 

 

 

 

 

👍🏼Something similar I read yesterday. 
Was a tad pished though and mibbe didn’t present my case in the best way possible last night ☺️

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

👍🏼Something similar I read yesterday. 
Was a tad pished though and mibbe didn’t present my case in the best way possible last night ☺️

Just remember, the border isn't correct with her.

 

 

Look up Scotland's stolen seas. 

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Just remember, the border isn't correct with her.

 

 

Look up Scotland's stolen seas. 

Yeah I know about that. The day before devolution Tony Blair was it? That moved thousands of miles of sea into English waters?

[Captain Canada]

8 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

👍. It's all been dragged down to a very low level by the old parties. We should vote for independence, start new parties and get a written, binding constitution with an elected second chamber.

 

Not the worst idea. I think a massive clear-out and fundamental change is needed because politics isn't really working for the general public. 

 

The whole system is corrupt and broken. 

[trotter]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

@jack D and coke @trotter. 👍. 

 

https://weegiefifer.scot/?p=2911# 

 

 

 

 

rA, that's a good article, but it is very misinformed at best and disingenuous at worst (that includes it's original sources btw).

 

1) The article is dated 2018, the energy map has changed quite a bit since then as we all are very aware.

 

2) "Overall, 96% of UK oil and liquid natural gas production comes from Scottish waters". Categorically false. Not only does Scotland not produce liquid natural gas, neither does the entire UK on any meaningful scale. Yes, we both have a couple of facilities in Scotland and England, but they are extremely small-scale for filling tanker trucks only. I suspect the author has mistaken LNG (liquefied natural gas) and NGL (natural gas liquids - such as those produced at Mossmorran). This alone questions the validity of the article and it's sources. Additionally, there is no break-up of oil vs. gas in the percentage. Oil makes up the VAST proportion of that figure.

 

3) "But the main point is that in 2016 we produced 60% of UK's natural gas and LNG".

Again, categorically false (see above). Not only is it apparently looking at data from 2016 which is no longer valid, if you look at the National Grids' own network entry figures you see this (valid as of 20:24 UK time today):

 

This shows a total flow into the NTS (National Transmission System) of 243 million Sm³/d. Now when you run the numbers, Scotland is only providing 23% of that. Nowhere near the 60% that article claims. The vast majority is coming in via the Langeled Pipeline and the LNG terminal at South Hook - as I stated on the other thread (I assume you read that because you @'d me on this one). 👍 

Edited January 29, 2022 by trotter

[Space Mackerel]

Ian Murray. 😁😁😁

 

Greeting like the fat little baby he is. 
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk//article/scottish-independence-top-civil-servant-simon-case-urged-to-block-snps-prospectus-6gl0tqndt

 

 

 

[manaliveits105]

Well done Ian Murray let the snp go doon the back of Peters sofa to fund their Mickey Mouse attempts which will get nowhere with the UK Government anyway 

[manaliveits105]

On 29/01/2022 at 21:51, trotter said:

rA, that's a good article, but it is very misinformed at best and disingenuous at worst (that includes it's original sources btw).

 

1) The article is dated 2018, the energy map has changed quite a bit since then as we all are very aware.

 

2) "Overall, 96% of UK oil and liquid natural gas production comes from Scottish waters". Categorically false. Not only does Scotland not produce liquid natural gas, neither does the entire UK on any meaningful scale. Yes, we both have a couple of facilities in Scotland and England, but they are extremely small-scale for filling tanker trucks only. I suspect the author has mistaken LNG (liquefied natural gas) and NGL (natural gas liquids - such as those produced at Mossmorran). This alone questions the validity of the article and it's sources. Additionally, there is no break-up of oil vs. gas in the percentage. Oil makes up the VAST proportion of that figure.

 

3) "But the main point is that in 2016 we produced 60% of UK's natural gas and LNG".

Again, categorically false (see above). Not only is it apparently looking at data from 2016 which is no longer valid, if you look at the National Grids' own network entry figures you see this (valid as of 20:24 UK time today):

 

This shows a total flow into the NTS (National Transmission System) of 243 million Sm³/d. Now when you run the numbers, Scotland is only providing 23% of that. Nowhere near the 60% that article claims. The vast majority is coming in via the Langeled Pipeline and the LNG terminal at South Hook - as I stated on the other thread (I assume you read that because you @'d me on this one). 👍 

The cult dont like facts 

[Lord Montpelier]

10 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

Ian Murray. 😁😁😁

 

Greeting like the fat little baby he is. 
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk//article/scottish-independence-top-civil-servant-simon-case-urged-to-block-snps-prospectus-6gl0tqndt

 

 

 

Fat shaming eh ?

 

Which party started greeting like kids in a nursery after a recent episode of that ? Or will you give the stock SNP answer - "I dont remember"

[3fingersreid]

On 29/01/2022 at 09:08, hmfc_steve said:

I've been against independence for most of my life .. but this current Tory government has changed my mind. Being part of EU is a must for me to vote for it

Is that independence though ? Going from one union to another union , if it’s to be a change then do it properly .

[Taffin]

On 28/01/2022 at 23:14, Ked said:

What about folk like me who just dont give a shiny fekin shite about countries and flags and face painting.

Put me in the indifferent category.

As with most .

 

Stockholm syndrome house jocks uncle tams all phrases hijacked by absolute away with its.

 

 

 

This. I'm really for independence, but all the shan rhetoric makes me turn away from it. The downtrodden Scots narrative, the conflation with slavery in the US, the underlying 'pure Scots' stuff that's recently arisen on here is all an affront to the independent Scotland I'd like to see.

 

Voting for one thing and getting another is indeed a reflection of the poor system in place at Westminster...but guess what? Even more English people don't vote Tory than Scottish people. Rather than make an enemy of normal English folk, focus your ire on those voting Conservative if you must focus ire anywhere.

 

Whilst I'm very left wing and strongly in favour of distribution of wealth I still firmly believe in hard work and self determination. The key is to try and create a society where people who can do that, do and those who cannot (not will not) are supported and provided support for an equitable life. There's too many happy to accept a handout but turn their nose to a hand up imo.

[jack D and coke]

13 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

This. I'm really for independence, but all the shan rhetoric makes me turn away from it. The downtrodden Scots narrative, the conflation with slavery in the US, the underlying 'pure Scots' stuff that's recently arisen on here is all an affront to the independent Scotland I'd like to see.

 

Voting for one thing and getting another is indeed a reflection of the poor system in place at Westminster...but guess what? Even more English people don't vote Tory than Scottish people. Rather than make an enemy of normal English folk, focus your ire on those voting Conservative if you must focus ire anywhere.

 

Whilst I'm very left wing and strongly in favour of distribution of wealth I still firmly believe in hard work and self determination. The key is to try and create a society where people who can do that, do and those who cannot (not will not) are supported and provided support for an equitable life. There's too many happy to accept a handout but turn their nose to a hand up imo.

The downtrodden Scots or pure Scot’s thing is reaction to the jibes of cult or shortbread and brigadoon type pish people have to listen to and so they get the uncle tam or hoose jock stuff back and it’s rather glorious how much it seems to rip their jimmys. One day these types will be seriously disliked on both sides of the border if it happens😀
I’ll discuss it with anyone if they have the mental capacity to discuss it. A lot of people don’t and will throw the playground stuff about then whine when someone calls them uncle tam. 
For people who sing silly wee songs about saving royalty and celebrated and still do the empire that raped and pillaged a planet the unionists have went a bit soft. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by jack D and coke

[Taffin]

15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The downtrodden Scots or pure Scot’s thing is reaction to the jibes of cult or shortbread and brigadoon type pish people have to listen to and so they get the uncle tam or hoose jock stuff back and it’s rather glorious how much it seems to rip their jimmys. One day these types will be seriously disliked on both sides of the border if it happens😀
I’ll discuss it with anyone if they have the mental capacity to discuss it. A lot of people don’t and will throw the playground stuff about then whine when someone calls them uncle tam. 
For people who sing silly wee songs about saving royalty and celebrated and still do the empire that raped and pillaged a planet the unionists have went a bit soft. 

 

It doesn't surprise me there's a tendency for a tit for tat race to the bottom from a country still blighted by sectarianism. Instead of trying to be the other arse of the same cheek, it would be wise to present and represent an independent Scotland people can buy into and be proud. Instead the national rhetoric on here seems to merely hold up a magnifying class to the insular, small-minded mentality that (imo) blights Scotland. 

 

'Aye, but they're not real Scots' 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

 

 

Edit: as for the bit in bold, England in my experience is one of the most welcoming places I've ever lived. The 'hatred' of Scots amongst normal English people is a complete fallacy.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Taffin

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It doesn't surprise me there's a tendency for a tit for tat race to the bottom from a country still blighted by sectarianism. Instead of trying to be the other arse of the same cheek, it would be wise to present and represent an independent Scotland people can buy into and be proud. Instead the national rhetoric on here instead seems to merely hold up a magnifying class to the insular, small-minded mentality that (imo) blights Scotland. 

 

'Aye, but they're not real Scots' 🤦🏻‍♂️

Having independence would be a start to have those attitudes diminish.

[Taffin]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

Having independence would be a start to have those attitudes diminish.

 

Would it? Or would it amplify it?

 

Small-minded, insular sectarianism in 21st century Scotland isn't something you can lay at the door of Westminster imo.

 

In 2014 I'd hoped it would result in a modern, progressive sovereign state who was open to all cultures and peoples that could reignite itself as a leader of innovation on a global stage. 8 years on I'm doubtful of that, if the loudest pro-independence voices on here are representative of the Scottish populace post-independence then sadly I'm more inclined to believe it would simply fold in on itself and become a bitter inward facing place and would simply find another chip upon it's shoulder to blame for it's ills. I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Imo West coast cultural dominance (Glasgow in particular) is far more damaging to Scotland than England is. 

[Roxy Hearts]

11 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

Ian Murray. 😁😁😁

 

Greeting like the fat little baby he is. 
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk//article/scottish-independence-top-civil-servant-simon-case-urged-to-block-snps-prospectus-6gl0tqndt

 

 

 

Can't stand that moaning face scrote! It's called democracy you Labour balloon. If it's in the manifesto of parties and it's voted for by the people then they're entitled to go ahead with it.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

Would it? Or would it amplify it?

 

Small-minded, insular sectarianism in 21st century Scotland isn't something you can lay at the door of Westminster imo.

 

In 2014 I'd hoped it would result in a modern, progressive sovereign state who was open to all cultures and peoples that could reignite itself as a leader of innovation on a global stage. 8 years on I'm doubtful of that, if the loudest pro-independence voices on here are representative of the Scottish populace post-independence then sadly I'm more inclined to believe it would simply fold in on itself and become a bitter inward facing place and would simply find another chip upon it's shoulder to blame for it's ills. I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Imo West coast cultural dominance (Glasgow in particular) is far more damaging to Scotland than England is. 

There wouldn't be a UJ to weep over. So something would change. IMO.

[jack D and coke]

10 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It doesn't surprise me there's a tendency for a tit for tat race to the bottom from a country still blighted by sectarianism. Instead of trying to be the other arse of the same cheek, it would be wise to present and represent an independent Scotland people can buy into and be proud. Instead the national rhetoric on here seems to merely hold up a magnifying class to the insular, small-minded mentality that (imo) blights Scotland. 

 

'Aye, but they're not real Scots' 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

 

 

Edit: as for the bit in bold, England in my experience is one of the most welcoming places I've ever lived. The 'hatred' of Scots amongst normal English people is a complete fallacy.

I worked in England for about 10-12 years on and off so I’m not in any way disrespectful of England, I genuinely like the place and have plenty friends. 
I’m at the stage there’s certain posters who quite frankly feck them they only come here to troll so they can get all the uncle tams I can throw at them. I have best mates and family who are No and we all get on great, it’s never really discussed but if it is it’s never insults thrown about. 
I agree with your west coast thing…but that’s your rampant unionism again too and it’s the hardest thing to break. 

[Taffin]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

There wouldn't be a UJ to weep over. So something would change. IMO.

 

Agreed, I just think the UK would be replaced with something else to weep over. As I've said before, woe is Scotland. Given a free crack at independence, said no. "But true Scots voted yes", rather than recognising the proposal was built on sand at best. Fast forward 8 years and the worst Conservative govt in memory...where's the new plan, where's the detail? Nowhere.

 

Ideology is enough for me, I'd vote for independence until the cows come home...but for many it's a leap of faith they aren't willing to roll the dice on. Rather than fling insults about the Independence movement needs to generate compelling, firm visions of what's independent Scotland would look like, and how it would be delivered. I'd start with (sadly) most people's motivation...money; even a currency plan would be a decent starter for 10.

[Spellczech]

On 29/01/2022 at 09:08, hmfc_steve said:

I've been against independence for most of my life .. but this current Tory government has changed my mind. Being part of EU is a must for me to vote for it

Pretty much where I am, though I've only voted SNP at the last GE never for Holyrood.

 

The lack of any real quality in politics generally apart from a couple of exceptions, Sturgeon actually being one of them, is troubling. Who would ever have thought we'd live in a World where Donald Trump was President and Boris Johnson was PM?!

[Lord Montpelier]

7 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Agreed, I just think the UK would be replaced with something else to weep over. As I've said before, woe is Scotland. Given a free crack at independence, said no. "But true Scots voted yes", rather than recognising the proposal was built on sand at best. Fast forward 8 years and the worst Conservative govt in memory...where's the new plan, where's the detail? Nowhere.

 

Ideology is enough for me, I'd vote for independence until the cows come home...but for many it's a leap of faith they aren't willing to roll the dice on. Rather than fling insults about the Independence movement needs to generate compelling, firm visions of what's independent Scotland would look like, and how it would be delivered. I'd start with (sadly) most people's motivation...money; even a currency plan would be a decent starter for 10.

Good post. My motivation is absolutely and unashamedly money. Wealth makes wealth that can then be spread into all areas of society for the benefit of all. And I'm massively unconvinced the SNP have the wherewithal to enact a sound economic plan to do this.

[Taffin]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I worked in England for about 10-12 years on and off so I’m not in any way disrespectful of England, I genuinely like the place and have plenty friends. 
I’m at the stage there’s certain posters who quite frankly feck them they only come here to troll so they can get all the uncle tams I can throw at them. I have best mates and family who are No and we all get on great, it’s never really discussed but if it is it’s never insults thrown about. 
I agree with your west coast thing…but that’s your rampant unionism again too and it’s the hardest thing to break. 

 

If you worked in England then you, the friends and family you have that are No are all being called Uncle Tam's too though. Shills for the Union, happy to take their pound. Is insulting those people the best way to win them around? 

 

I appreciate you're saying you don't debate in that fashion with them but if they read those posts on here, how do you think they'd feel? I'm guessing not any more in favour of changing their mind.

 

Only part of the West Coast thing is rampant unionism. It's rampant nationalism in many directions full stop imo. Glasgow is literally the chip on Scotland's shoulder imo, but it's easier to say it's England. Nobody likes to look in the mirror and say "what's in my gift to change before worrying about what I can't?"

 

There was a firm play to separate independence from true nationalism back in 2014; imo that is now significantly blurred and I feel there is genuine nationalism of the dangerous kind creeping into the narrative.

 

 

All just imo and I appreciate your posts and the debate. As I say, I'm still absolutely for independence, but my confidence on how it would pan out is diminishing...in no small part because I no longer believe the current SNP leadership actually have the intention, desire or skill-set to deliver it.

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Would it? Or would it amplify it?

 

Small-minded, insular sectarianism in 21st century Scotland isn't something you can lay at the door of Westminster imo.

 

In 2014 I'd hoped it would result in a modern, progressive sovereign state who was open to all cultures and peoples that could reignite itself as a leader of innovation on a global stage. 8 years on I'm doubtful of that, if the loudest pro-independence voices on here are representative of the Scottish populace post-independence then sadly I'm more inclined to believe it would simply fold in on itself and become a bitter inward facing place and would simply find another chip upon it's shoulder to blame for it's ills. I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Imo West coast cultural dominance (Glasgow in particular) is far more damaging to Scotland than England is. 

 

Scotland's people should have a government that GAF.

The alternative is clinging to England to save us from ourselves, and **** that

 

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Scotland's people should have a government that GAF.

The alternative is clinging to England to save us from ourselves, and **** that

 

 

Glad we both agree that currently isn't in place.

 

What would you hope a new government who do GAF would enact as a priority?

[hmfc_steve]

1 hour ago, 3fingersreid said:

Is that independence though ? Going from one union to another union , if it’s to be a change then do it properly .

Well we can't get realigned with the EU whilst under the Tory rule .. I probably mean undo Brexit more than independence as such .. but if independence is what's needed, then fine .. sick of the inward viewpoint of the Brexiteers

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Glad we both agree that currently isn't in place.

 

What would you hope a new government who do GAF would enact as a priority?

 

Just to be clear, Scotland's government sits at Westminster, the "Scottish Government" just arrange the chairs.

The only way we can have a government that GAF is by them being answerable to our population.

 

[Taffin]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Just to be clear, Scotland's government sits at Westminster, the "Scottish Government" just arrange the chairs.

The only way we can have a government that GAF is by them being answerable to our population.

 

 

Agreed.

 

So what would you want this government you desire to do?

 

My top 3 would be:

 

- Re-alignment with the EU in the short term (ideally rejoining in the future)

- Secular Head of State 

- Less restriction on immigration (more open)

 

 

[jack D and coke]

13 minutes ago, Taffin said:

There was a firm play to separate independence from true nationalism back in 2014; imo that is now significantly blurred and I feel there is genuine nationalism of the dangerous kind creeping into the narrative.

 

 

All just imo and I appreciate your posts and the debate. As I say, I'm still absolutely for independence, but my confidence on how it would pan out is diminishing...in no small part because I no longer believe the current SNP leadership actually have the intention, desire or skill-set to deliver it.

That’s something that again is amplified without much of a shred of anything to back it up. The last time everyone was a so called cybernat or blood and soil nationalist and now its moved to cult etc etc. This came from politicans on the No side too. Stoking the flames imo. The No side were throwing the insults about at the beginning and are always still suggesting people are Nazi’s etc and now they get some hoose jock or uncle tam thrown at them and it’s the Yes side who have lost it again and are nutters  The most violent thing that happened during the last indyref was that eejit Jim Murphy getting hit by an egg after he drove around Scotland standing on a crate in town centres and shouting making an absolute clown of himself. 
 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Agreed.

 

So what would you want this government you desire to do?

 

My top 3 would be:

 

- Re-alignment with the EU in the short term (ideally rejoining in the future)

- Secular Head of State 

- Less restriction on immigration (more open)

 

 

Oh I don't know, root and branch restructuring of the executive in a way that suits Scotland, not the UK?

 

I'm not educated enough to give a good answer to that.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

That’s something that again is amplified without much of a shred of anything to back it up. The last time everyone was a so called cybernat or blood and soil nationalist and now its moved to cult etc etc. This came from politicans on the No side too. Stoking the flames imo. The No side were throwing the insults about at the beginning and are always still suggesting people are Nazi’s etc and now they get some hoose jock or uncle tam thrown at them and it’s the Yes side who have lost it again and are nutters  The most violent thing that happened during the last indyref was that eejit Jim Murphy getting hit by an egg after he drove around Scotland standing on a crate in town centres and shouting making an absolute clown of himself. 
 

 

I'd just like to reiterate that a mate went to school with Murphy, prince of all ****s apparently.

[Unknown user]

By the way, if there are any Doubting Tams remaining, Wheatus are on board

 

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

That’s something that again is amplified without much of a shred of anything to back it up. The last time everyone was a so called cybernat or blood and soil nationalist and now its moved to cult etc etc. This came from politicans on the No side too. Stoking the flames imo. The No side were throwing the insults about at the beginning and are always still suggesting people are Nazi’s etc and now they get some hoose jock or uncle tam thrown at them and it’s the Yes side who have lost it again and are nutters  The most violent thing that happened during the last indyref was that eejit Jim Murphy getting hit by an egg after he drove around Scotland standing on a crate in town centres and shouting making an absolute clown of himself. 
 

 

Whilst I don't think that kind of stuff is constructive, it's largely juvenile tit for tat. I'm referencing more this scope creep that only those born in Scotland should have a say and the vigorous defence of the current SG to the extent it almost feels above critique. Anyone who chooses to live in Scotland should be part of that discussion and their opinion held in equal regard, and the administration should be held to account; it is after all one of the best upsides to independence...ideally an electoral system where everyone's voice is heard equally and represented.

 

 

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Oh I don't know, root and branch restructuring of the executive in a way that suits Scotland, not the UK?

 

I'm not educated enough to give a good answer to that.

 

I always find it harder than I expect to articulate it. I do think it's enough to just feel it's the right thing to do, I also just find it interesting to hear people's thoughts on it and what independent Scotland would mean to them in terms of potential policy. Often it's actually very varied to mine, or others. You certainly come across as amply educated though and I think the answer you give is a very good one, certainly at a fundamental level, and I agree completely with. I guess I'm just trying to turn the narrative towards what we all think it can deliver, as that's the vision that needs sold to people; inherent and intangible 'feel' can only go so far I think. I'm trying to develop my own narrative so I can focus on the positives it brings rather than the negatives I want to leave behind. Focusing on a goal and a blueprint seems more achievable that focusing on the shortfalls of the status quo as anyone who currently doesn't really mind the status quo isn't stirred to action to change it. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

1. Rejoin EU or commence process

2. Set up central bank

3. Legalise cannabis (might as well try and get something for myself out the deal)

agree with point 3.

😮

 

However the Indy vote should be completely separate from the EU vote.  It should be made clear that if it is  Yes vote then  a ref to re-join the  EU  would be one of the priorities of a  Newly Indy Scotland and its parliament. 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Whilst I don't think that kind of stuff is constructive, it's largely juvenile tit for tat. I'm referencing more this scope creep that only those born in Scotland should have a say and the vigorous defence of the current SG to the extent it almost feels above critique. Anyone who chooses to live in Scotland should be part of that discussion and their opinion held in equal regard, and the administration should be held to account; it is after all one of the best upsides to independence...ideally an electoral system where everyone's voice is heard equally and represented.

I know you live down south so am I thinking you’re taking literally the more “screw loose” posters who’ll have you believe it’s all hate filled up here now and we all want to

run the English back over the order? 
The snp are part of the problem now instead of being what they were formed for and I agree some peoples defence of them is silly. But it’s got to that stage I suppose where people double down even when they’re wrong. It’s also silly the attacks on them from media outlets like the Mail, Express etc who have them on the front page every single day  it’s incredible the stuff they find to dig them out for. 
I’ve got a big mate I used to work with, big stupid rangers fan who knew me in my bigoted unionist days he’ll send me some stuff on WhatsApp and it’s laughable demented stuff. 
But it’s the Yes side who are lunatics apparently 🤪😂
 

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

who knew me in my bigoted unionist days he’ll send me some stuff on WhatsApp and it’s laughable demented stuff. 

now that's a u turn    

[Unknown user]

 

39 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

Whilst I don't think that kind of stuff is constructive, it's largely juvenile tit for tat. I'm referencing more this scope creep that only those born in Scotland should have a say and the vigorous defence of the current SG to the extent it almost feels above critique. Anyone who chooses to live in Scotland should be part of that discussion and their opinion held in equal regard, and the administration should be held to account; it is after all one of the best upsides to independence...ideally an electoral system where everyone's voice is heard equally and represented.

 

 

 

I always find it harder than I expect to articulate it. I do think it's enough to just feel it's the right thing to do, I also just find it interesting to hear people's thoughts on it and what independent Scotland would mean to them in terms of potential policy. Often it's actually very varied to mine, or others. You certainly come across as amply educated though and I think the answer you give is a very good one, certainly at a fundamental level, and I agree completely with. I guess I'm just trying to turn the narrative towards what we all think it can deliver, as that's the vision that needs sold to people; inherent and intangible 'feel' can only go so far I think. I'm trying to develop my own narrative so I can focus on the positives it brings rather than the negatives I want to leave behind. Focusing on a goal and a blueprint seems more achievable that focusing on the shortfalls of the status quo as anyone who currently doesn't really mind the status quo isn't stirred to action to change it. 

 

 

It's just too big a subject for me, people go to uni for years to learn about tiny aspects of it, what do I know? Sometimes you're just smart enough to realise how dumb you are in the grand scheme.

 

Lord BJ's here, we talked about economies briefly before I realised I don't have the words to say what I want to (sorry for not replying, I tried and failed). In fact, my economic view's largely based on a coffeeshop encounter with an economist (for the EU or UN, I can't remember which) in Amsterdam where he explained at length how it's all bollocks. I understood it at the time but buggered if I could articulate it. I caught the summary though!

 

I also think that it's easy for the debate to be taken down to the details, which can be really off-putting to the layman. The details are vague, but then next week's vague in politics. It suits the unionist argument to get bogged down in details, to expect a cast iron vision for years down the line yet it's something we would never expect from the actual government.

 

I keep it simple - Scotland's people should have a genuine democratic voice, only we should be sovereign in Scotland.

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

now that's a u turn    

 aye isnae half. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

 aye isnae half. 

 

and you talk about me  with my supposed u turns   

[Taffin]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

It's just too big a subject for me, people go to uni for years to learn about tiny aspects of it, what do I know? Sometimes you're just smart enough to realise how dumb you are in the grand scheme.

 

I think that's very true, and also very self-aware. It's certainly true for me as well, and I'm one of those people who studied it at uni (not independence per se, but a variety of closely linked subjects).

 

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Lord BJ's here, we talked about economies briefly before I realised I don't have the words to say what I want to (sorry for not replying, I tried and failed). In fact, my economic view's largely based on a coffeeshop encounter with an economist (for the EU or UN, I can't remember which) in Amsterdam where he explained at length how it's all bollocks. I understood it at the time but buggered if I could articulate it. I caught the summary though! 

 

Lord BJ posts excellent stuff on economics (a subject I know very little of), I've learnt to just read and learn from it rather than expose my lack of understanding 😂

 

On that note too, I really like the three suggestions @Lord BJ came up with, albeit the last one is not applicable to me but I do believe it's a sensible policy.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I also think that it's easy for the debate to be taken down to the details, which can be really off-putting to the layman. The details are vague, but then next week's vague in politics. It suits the unionist argument to get bogged down in details, to expect a cast iron vision for years down the line yet it's something we would never expect from the actual government. 

 

Also very true, but I do think there needs to be something between the two, if we're to achieve independence. A cast-iron guarantee can never be provided, despite how much Brexiteers tried (and failed), but there must be more than there was last time. If I'm happy now, why risk it for change? It's hard to counter that without a plan and vision.

 

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I keep it simple - Scotland's people should have a genuine democratic voice, only we should be sovereign in Scotland.

 

Agreed but without expansion (and it's not for you, or I as individuals to provide) for me it's a bit like saying "I want to be a millionaire" but having no idea why. If you suddenly get what you want you need a plan otherwise the risk is it's spent on women, fast cars and booze and before you know it you're back where you were. I can think of nothing worse than getting independence and ending up in a cap in hand position a few years down the line...regardless of who it's being held out to.

[jack D and coke]

19 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

and you talk about me  with my supposed u turns   

They tend to be days apart though pal😜

[JackLadd]

weans world weans world, party time excellent!!! Buckshee by the way wee man!! 

 

Bribe n lie works a treat until they come off the Westminster teat. 

[jack D and coke]

24 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

It's just too big a subject for me, people go to uni for years to learn about tiny aspects of it, what do I know? Sometimes you're just smart enough to realise how dumb you are in the grand scheme.

 

Lord BJ's here, we talked about economies briefly before I realised I don't have the words to say what I want to (sorry for not replying, I tried and failed). In fact, my economic view's largely based on a coffeeshop encounter with an economist (for the EU or UN, I can't remember which) in Amsterdam where he explained at length how it's all bollocks. I understood it at the time but buggered if I could articulate it. I caught the summary though!

 

I also think that it's easy for the debate to be taken down to the details, which can be really off-putting to the layman. The details are vague, but then next week's vague in politics. It suits the unionist argument to get bogged down in details, to expect a cast iron vision for years down the line yet it's something we would never expect from the actual government.

 

I keep it simple - Scotland's people should have a genuine democratic voice, only we should be sovereign in Scotland.

Excellent post man. 
People demand to know what years down the line is going to be when you only need look back to first indy and what’s happened since. 
Basically a lot of things they said wouldn’t happen and in turn would only happen had we voted yes. 
 

[manaliveits105]

The snp said in 2014 Scotland would be solvent within 3 years with our “ile” if we were independent 

that panned out really well 

[Ainsley Harriott]

On 29/01/2022 at 09:08, hmfc_steve said:

I've been against independence for most of my life .. but this current Tory government has changed my mind. Being part of EU is a must for me to vote for it

Respect everyone's views but what about being in the EU do you feel is a must? Keeping in mind we have always had far bigger economic links to the rest of the UK.

[Ainsley Harriott]

3 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Can't stand that moaning face scrote! It's called democracy you Labour balloon. If it's in the manifesto of parties and it's voted for by the people then they're entitled to go ahead with it.

The people were voting for a party to lead a devolved assembly responsible for health care, education and transport etc. Scottish parliamentary elections aren't a vote on constitutional future. That took place in 2014.

[hmfc_steve]

42 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Respect everyone's views but what about being in the EU do you feel is a must? Keeping in mind we have always had far bigger economic links to the rest of the UK.

I believe we should be more outward thinking and relate to Europe as well as UK .. which in turn relates to rest of world socially and economically .. in fact I'd prefer no borders anywhere

[micole]

1 hour ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Respect everyone's views but what about being in the EU do you feel is a must? Keeping in mind we have always had far bigger economic links to the rest of the UK.

It is not a must for me. After indy I think we would need to revisit the pros and cons of rejoining the EU. Imo we would still need to have strong trading / economic links to the rest of the UK and I really don't know how that would pan out with the EU. Having said this I still believe we would be better of on our own in the long term , again it's all about your individual opinion.

[Roxy Hearts]

2 hours ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

The people were voting for a party to lead a devolved assembly responsible for health care, education and transport etc. Scottish parliamentary elections aren't a vote on constitutional future. That took place in 2014.

General Election manifesto!

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, micole said:

It is not a must for me. After indy I think we would need to revisit the pros and cons of rejoining the EU. Imo we would still need to have strong trading / economic links to the rest of the UK and I really don't know how that would pan out with the EU. Having said this I still believe we would be better of on our own in the long term , again it's all about your individual opinion.

 

This is a good post, we should be thinking about the genuine implications.

I don't see the relationship thing as an issue, RoI can make it work, we can too.

There's no way of getting away from it, our relationship with England will be the most important one we have.

I'm cool with that, in fact I'd have no problem with genuine federalism. England might be the auld enemy but they're also our closest friends and allies.