Pyramid Leagues Superthread

[SuperstarSteve]

If all clubs outside ourself and the two arsecheeks have zero youth football.
You’d expect the next batch of youngsters leading the way for the nationals will be from those 3 clubs.

 

How does anyone else get a look in unless they are getting regular first team football, For example Ramsay from Aberdeen. 
 

[Saint Jambo]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I agree that it would be better if we had all the squad playing together, but the problem is the level that they are allowed to play at.  Clubs in the Championship, League 1 and League 2 still are, for the most part, stronger than almost all LL, EOS Premier and WOS Premier clubs.

 

Connor Smith was POTY for Queen's Park as they won promotion to the Championship. Cammy Logan won promotion to League 1. They have to be playing at a higher level than the LL if they are to develop further.

 

I'd rather that we focussed the U18 side at the LL. It would be more valuable to them in development terms than playing Club Academy Scotland (CAS) football at U18.  There is no promotion to be had from the LL so their final position in the league is less important than early exposure to adult football.

 

The benefit of the B team is surely that those players can still be on the bench for the first team and can be brought into the team to cover injuries and suspensions. Players out on loan risk missing those opportunities.

 

For example, if Hickey hadn't got his chance at the end of the 18/19 season, it is entirely plausible that he would have been sent out on loan to the depths of the lower leagues for the 19/20 season. He got lucky to get his chance when he was so young, but if that chance had come 6months later, he probably wouldn't have been available to take it.

 

If the pyramid review concludes B teams are the answer, hopefully it will conclude that they should be able to be promoted to a level higher than Lowland League. But for now I'd rather have Connor Smith in the B team in the Lowland League with the potential to come into the first team, than out on loan at Queen's Park for the year before being released and signed by Livi.

[Hesh]

16 minutes ago, SuperstarSteve said:

If all clubs outside ourself and the two arsecheeks have zero youth football.
You’d expect the next batch of youngsters leading the way for the nationals will be from those 3 clubs.

 

How does anyone else get a look in unless they are getting regular first team football, For example Ramsay from Aberdeen. 
 

What’s your definition of youth football?

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

The benefit of the B team is surely that those players can still be on the bench for the first team and can be brought into the team to cover injuries and suspensions. Players out on loan risk missing those opportunities.

 

For example, if Hickey hadn't got his chance at the end of the 18/19 season, it is entirely plausible that he would have been sent out on loan to the depths of the lower leagues for the 19/20 season. He got lucky to get his chance when he was so young, but if that chance had come 6months later, he probably wouldn't have been available to take it.

 

If the pyramid review concludes B teams are the answer, hopefully it will conclude that they should be able to be promoted to a level higher than Lowland League. But for now I'd rather have Connor Smith in the B team in the Lowland League with the potential to come into the first team, than out on loan at Queen's Park for the year before being released and signed by Livi.

I get all that, but the B teams in the LL will be playing at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon so there is no opportunity to fulfil both roles on any given weekend. A reserve league played on a Monday/Tuesday would provide that flexibility.

 

It is for the SFA and SPFL to come up with a workable solution for the clubs wishing to operate B or reserve teams. Foisting the problem onto the LL will not solve it. It is also disrespectful to the clubs within that league (as evidenced in Tranent's statement) and those aspiring to join it, but who are faced with with having to win playoffs despite winning their designated "feeder" league.

 

IMO the SFA has screwed up badly in not insisting that in order to participate in the pyramid, all leagues need to have open and fluid arrangements for promotion and relegation. The SPFL, LL and HL all fail that test. 

[Dick Dastardly]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I agree that it would be better if we had all the squad playing together, but the problem is the level that they are allowed to play at.  Clubs in the Championship, League 1 and League 2 still are, for the most part, stronger than almost all LL, EOS Premier and WOS Premier clubs.

 

Connor Smith was POTY for Queen's Park as they won promotion to the Championship. Cammy Logan won promotion to League 1. They have to be playing at a higher level than the LL if they are to develop further.

 

I'd rather that we focussed the U18 side at the LL. It would be more valuable to them in development terms than playing Club Academy Scotland (CAS) football at U18.  There is no promotion to be had from the LL so their final position in the league is less important than early exposure to adult football.

But would it be wise to just play under 18s? Playing with the older lads would be beneficial to the younger ones, wouldn't it? It also gives the older ones an allowance of 10 games a season in our first team. I've, obviously, no proof to back this up, but if we had been in this position last season i reckon players like Pollock or Smith would have been given games for us, especially in the second half of the season when we were struggling with injuries. Whether that would have been better for them than playing in league 1 or 2 I don't know, but at least the pathway is open. 

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

But would it be wise to just play under 18s? Playing with the older lads would be beneficial to the younger ones, wouldn't it? It also gives the older ones an allowance of 10 games a season in our first team. I've, obviously, no proof to back this up, but if we had been in this position last season i reckon players like Pollock or Smith would have been given games for us, especially in the second half of the season when we were struggling with injuries. Whether that would have been better for them than playing in league 1 or 2 I don't know, but at least the pathway is open. 

I agree, but go back to the point about the level they would be playing at.

 

Would Connor Smith be content, or more importantly become a better player, by playing Dalbeattie, Bo'ness, Edinburgh Uni and Gala FR over the course of the month, on the off chance that he may be required to sit on the bench for a game against Livingston because of injuries or suspensions? 

 

I'd suggest that he'd become a better player by either being part of the first team squad with sub appearances and a few starts, or alternatively playing on loan with a Championship club.

[The Treasurer]

24 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I get all that, but the B teams in the LL will be playing at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon so there is no opportunity to fulfil both roles on any given weekend. A reserve league played on a Monday/Tuesday would provide that flexibility.

 

It is for the SFA and SPFL to come up with a workable solution for the clubs wishing to operate B or reserve teams. Foisting the problem onto the LL will not solve it. It is also disrespectful to the clubs within that league (as evidenced in Tranent's statement) and those aspiring to join it, but who are faced with with having to win playoffs despite winning their designated "feeder" league.

 

IMO the SFA has screwed up badly in not insisting that in order to participate in the pyramid, all leagues need to have open and fluid arrangements for promotion and relegation. The SPFL, LL and HL all fail that test. 

Maybe it's time that the SPFL /SFA insisted that clubs in the Premier league and possibly championship must enter a team in the reserve league. 

Whether this is a true reserve team(with a mixture of fringe players and youngsters) or basically their youth team would be up to the individual clubs 

[Dick Dastardly]

12 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I agree, but go back to the point about the level they would be playing at.

 

Would Connor Smith be content, or more importantly become a better player, by playing Dalbeattie, Bo'ness, Edinburgh Uni and Gala FR over the course of the month, on the off chance that he may be required to sit on the bench for a game against Livingston because of injuries or suspensions? 

 

I'd suggest that he'd become a better player by either being part of the first team squad with sub appearances and a few starts, or alternatively playing on loan with a Championship club.

You are probably right. I wont even pretend I've watched any LL football so maybe I've overestimated the level the players in it are at. I saw the level those the rangers lads were at and I've probably based it on them! 

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

You are probably right. I wont even pretend I've watched any LL football so maybe I've overestimated the level the players in it are at. I saw the level those the rangers lads were at and I've probably based it on them! 

The likes of Lowry, King and McKinnon are decent, but they were given a chance to play alongside a number of their experienced first team players and weren't found wanting.  

 

The same Rangers B squad had a few curious results last season, losing to Univ of Stirling, Gala FR and Cumbernauld Colts amongst others, while rattling up 9 against Gretna and Vale of Leithen. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

15 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

Maybe it's time that the SPFL /SFA insisted that clubs in the Premier league and possibly championship must enter a team in the reserve league. 

Whether this is a true reserve team(with a mixture of fringe players and youngsters) or basically their youth team would be up to the individual clubs 

 

Even with the OF united, the SPFL isn't going to force a reserve league on the whole league even Hibs, Aberdeen, and United are uninterested. If there were 4-5 non-OF clubs to go along with the OF it would do it in a flash, but with just us plus the OF they won't force it, and the SFA isn't going to go against the SPFL on that I don't think.

 

There are very few ways I think anyone should emulate American sports, and in many ways the "farm system" has taken baseball from holding a position in the US akin to what football is in Scotland to a pale shadow of its former self. That said, the equivalent of the loan system in baseball allows for players to be "called up" at any point by their parent clubs at any point, and in return the lower teams effectively get the players for free.

 

On the one hand, having some way to designate a limited number of players on more flexible loan recall rules would solve some of the problem. Players could still be called upon to participate while still seeing regular game action, and lower clubs might take better players at effectively no cost with the understanding that they could lose them at any time (perhaps with compensation). On the other hand, turning all of baseball under the 28 teams in MLB into a training system has made the game utterly depressing to watch. My local club, the famous Durham Bulls of Bull Durham, have attendances that rival some of the more poorly supported MLB teams, but the fans recently had the indignity of having to see a pitcher 7 innings into a no-hitter (a rare feat for a pitcher) get pulled because his parent club insisted that he never throw more than a certain number of pitches in a game. It was an insult to everyone who'd paid to see a competitive baseball game that day.

[Toggie88]

1 minute ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Even with the OF united, the SPFL isn't going to force a reserve league on the whole league even Hibs, Aberdeen, and United are uninterested. If there were 4-5 non-OF clubs to go along with the OF it would do it in a flash, but with just us plus the OF they won't force it, and the SFA isn't going to go against the SPFL on that I don't think.

 

There are very few ways I think anyone should emulate American sports, and in many ways the "farm system" has taken baseball from holding a position in the US akin to what football is in Scotland to a pale shadow of its former self. That said, the equivalent of the loan system in baseball allows for players to be "called up" at any point by their parent clubs at any point, and in return the lower teams effectively get the players for free.

 

On the one hand, having some way to designate a limited number of players on more flexible loan recall rules would solve some of the problem. Players could still be called upon to participate while still seeing regular game action, and lower clubs might take better players at effectively no cost with the understanding that they could lose them at any time (perhaps with compensation). On the other hand, turning all of baseball under the 28 teams in MLB into a training system has made the game utterly depressing to watch. My local club, the famous Durham Bulls of Bull Durham, have attendances that rival some of the more poorly supported MLB teams, but the fans recently had the indignity of having to see a pitcher 7 innings into a no-hitter (a rare feat for a pitcher) get pulled because his parent club insisted that he never throw more than a certain number of pitches in a game. It was an insult to everyone who'd paid to see a competitive baseball game that day.

 

Like you, I've taken in a fair few minor league games (the mighty Columbia Fireflies) and often wondered if there would be a way to emulate the MLB farm system into Scottish Football to improve the game here but the fluidity between the leagues makes it very difficult in my opinion. And as you say, the continued decline of MLB is probably a reason in itself not to seek to emulate that system but I do still wonder. 

 

You could see ourselves having a link with Raith for example, which could be mutually beneficial but it would probably require a wholesale transformation of how loans work. 

 

[Tasavallan]

25 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

The same Rangers B squad had a few curious results last season, losing to Univ of Stirling, Gala FR and Cumbernauld Colts amongst others, while rattling up 9 against Gretna and Vale of Leithen. 

Looking at the current traditional LL clubs, those that are ambitious and those that are not.  Bonnyrigg RA have shown the way, East Kilbride and The Spartans will follow.  Those bubbling under like Darvel, Auchinleck, Broxurn, Penicuik, etc. will come through.

 

 

[Hesh]

1 hour ago, Tasavallan said:

Looking at the current traditional LL clubs, those that are ambitious and those that are not.  Bonnyrigg RA have shown the way, East Kilbride and The Spartans will follow.  Those bubbling under like Darvel, Auchinleck, Broxurn, Penicuik, etc. will come through.

 

 

I might swap the word ambitious with ‘the money’ I think quite a few teams in the league have the ambition for promotion but dont have the funding. League looks like it should be competitive next season, hopefully b team results don’t screw it up too much 

 

the Darvel situation gave me a good laugh, just spent 12 k on a player, getting a video analyst and film of the backer giving it get it up ye talbot and lowland league here we come. Pleasing to see them get turned over by Tranent 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Hesh

[Watt-Zeefuik]

2 hours ago, Toggie88 said:

 

Like you, I've taken in a fair few minor league games (the mighty Columbia Fireflies) and often wondered if there would be a way to emulate the MLB farm system into Scottish Football to improve the game here but the fluidity between the leagues makes it very difficult in my opinion. And as you say, the continued decline of MLB is probably a reason in itself not to seek to emulate that system but I do still wonder. 

 

You could see ourselves having a link with Raith for example, which could be mutually beneficial but it would probably require a wholesale transformation of how loans work. 

 

 

The paradox is that MLB continues to be the most attended sports league in the world and its players have some of the richest contracts in the world. But culturally, baseball is only relevant in the 10-15 big cities where actual contenders play. Whereas there used to be an amateur or part-time team in every 1000 person town in the country, many decent sized cities now don't have senior baseball at all, minor league or major.

 

The pyramid system keeps football relevant locally, such that even in places like the Western Isles, they get a decent cup competition every year with multiple teams involved. That's something to treasure.

[Bazzas right boot]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The likes of Lowry, King and McKinnon are decent, but they were given a chance to play alongside a number of their experienced first team players and weren't found wanting.  

 

The same Rangers B squad had a few curious results last season, losing to Univ of Stirling, Gala FR and Cumbernauld Colts amongst others, while rattling up 9 against Gretna and Vale of Leithen. 

 

 

Surley we can still send of our better and older players on Loan tho. 

It's not a either/ or situation. 

 

Some guys might get to go on loan to play at a higher level while others don't, but still  get to play competitive football. 

[jbee647]

20 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

Surley we can still send of our better and older players on Loan tho. 

It's not a either/ or situation. 

 

Some guys might get to go on loan to play at a higher level while others don't, but still  get to play competitive football. 

I’d think the likes of McGill, Smith and Stone will go out on loan to higher end championship clubs, while the younger ones in that level below will play in the B Team, Euan Henderson will I imagine be in the first team squad

 

 

 

 

[Footballfirst]

24 minutes ago, Bazzas right boot said:

Surley we can still send of our better and older players on Loan tho. 

It's not a either/ or situation. 

 

Some guys might get to go on loan to play at a higher level while others don't, but still  get to play competitive football. 

Yes, of course.

 

IMO there are three options for our best youngsters, first to be part of Hearts first team squad, second go out on loan to an SPFL club, third play in the LL.

 

Youth player development is all about preparing players for the first team. To my mind, the LL can be the initial introduction to adult football for the youngest players (e.g. 16-18). Those a bit older (19-20) who haven't shown enough to be part of the first team should be looking to play elsewhere in the SPFL. For those over 20 then they really should be part of the first team squad, or looking to find another club. I don't think that Hearts will have introduced many home grown players to the first team who is over 20.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Footballfirst

[Watt-Zeefuik]

9 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Yes, of course.

 

IMO there are three options for our best youngsters, first to be part of Hearts first team squad, second go out on loan to an SPFL club, third play in the LL.

 

Youth player development is all about preparing players for the first team. To my mind, the LL can be the initial introduction to adult football for the youngest players (e.g. 16-18). Those a bit older (19-20) who haven't shown enough to be part of the first team should be looking to play elsewhere in the SPFL. For those over 20 then they really should be part of the first team squad, or looking to find another club. I don't think that Hearts will have introduced many home grown players to the first team who is over 20.

I've heard it said you can't really count on defenders to be fully mature until they're 22-24. But I guess they can still be bedding in as substitutes and with significant help around them.

[Jambo92]

10 minutes ago, jbee647 said:

I’d think the likes of McGill, Smith and Stone will go out on loan to higher end championship clubs, while the younger ones in that level below will play in the B Team, Euan Henderson will I imagine be in the first team squad

 

 

 

 

 

There is very little difference from top half of Lowland league and League 2 - possibly stretching into bottom half of League 1.

 

Don't agree with the colts thing but can only benefit our academy.  Players like Pollock would have benefited greatly playing in a B team last season and whilst still having ability to come into first team games when required than being in & out at East Fife.

 

[Mikey1874]

Everyone with any sense says youngsters learn most and  benefit most from being in a squad with more experienced players.

 

Another argument for playing the 16 to 18 years who aren't the best players in Lowland League. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Mikey1874

[Bazzas right boot]

39 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Yes, of course.

 

IMO there are three options for our best youngsters, first to be part of Hearts first team squad, second go out on loan to an SPFL club, third play in the LL.

 

Youth player development is all about preparing players for the first team. To my mind, the LL can be the initial introduction to adult football for the youngest players (e.g. 16-18). Those a bit older (19-20) who haven't shown enough to be part of the first team should be looking to play elsewhere in the SPFL. For those over 20 then they really should be part of the first team squad, or looking to find another club. I don't think that Hearts will have introduced many home grown players to the first team who is over 20.

 

Agreed. 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

44 minutes ago, jbee647 said:

I’d think the likes of McGill, Smith and Stone will go out on loan to higher end championship clubs, while the younger ones in that level below will play in the B Team, Euan Henderson will I imagine be in the first team squad

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also folk that might be in about the 1st team squad but not played much, the might dip their toes in for fitness etc fur a few weeks  then be on our bench. 

 

It's basically a reserve side. 

 

Guys can get competitive football without having to go on loan so can stay fit, competive and ready if required to support the 1st team. 

 

[Footballfirst]

Stenhousemuir isn't happy about the B team deal with the LL.

 

SPFL chairman hits out at 'bribe' and 'backroom deals' over Colts teams as he makes reconstruction claim
 

Stenhousemuir chief Iain McMenemy has accused the league and governing body of bribing Lowland League clubs in “grubby backroom deals” with the carrot of possible reconstruction.

On Tuesday it was confirmed that Celtic, Hearts and Rangers can field a Colts side in the fifth tier next season.

It appeared the Colts inclusion in the Lowland League was set to be scrapped with clubs not keen on seeing the division increased to 19 teams following a reported ultimatum to include all three or none at all.

However, a more recent vote saw the 16 clubs split, 8-8, with Lowland League chairman Thomas Brown casting the deciding vote in favour of Colts sides.

The SFA chief Ian Maxwell confirmed the organisation “will oversee a discussion in parallel to propose and implement a long-term plan with the objectives of optimising the pyramid”.

McMenemy believes it is a “bribe" to ensure the three Colts sides were approved. The Stenny chief also warned that reconstruction is unlikely “under these circumstances”.

He told the Daily Mail: "Reconstructing the pyramid was not on the agenda, so you have to ask what's changed? Why now?

“It seems pretty obvious that this issue has been hastily thrown into the negotiations at the 11th hour. We knew nothing about it.

“Those at the negotiating table have offered to look at relegating more League Two clubs from the SPFL in order to bribe the Lowland League into accepting Premiership colt teams into their league next season.

“The manner in which they have gone about this is just not acceptable. Clubs in Leagues One and Two are not here as bargaining chips for Premiership clubs and our fate won't be decided in grubby backroom deals behind our backs.

“I can tell you now that reconstruction will not happen under these circumstances. I feel sorry for the Lowland League clubs who have been deceived into thinking this was likely.”

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

8 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

What is an "appropriate level"?

 

If you deem clubs in the LL as "amateurs", then you should also assign the same label for one championship club, seven in L1 and all ten in L2. Part time football has its place in a pyramid structure in Scotland, just as it is in most other nations. 

 

If you wish to separate the full time clubs from the part time clubs, then fair enough. Let the 24 full time clubs together with any "B" teams run their own league for "professionals".

At least a 3rd of Scottish “top flight” football is essentially amateur. There should be a cull of at least 15-18 teams from Leagues 1 and 2. 
 

There should still be a pyramid but feeding into something like a 14 team SPL and 16/18 team Championship.

 

There might be a ridiculous economic need for a small SPL but there is no need for 3 other small leagues whatsoever.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Tom Hardy’s Dug

[Mikey1874]

Stenhousemuir adding themselves to the list of clubs who can see themselves playing in the Lowland League fairly soon. 

[Randy Marsh]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Stenhousemuir isn't happy about the B team deal with the LL.

 

SPFL chairman hits out at 'bribe' and 'backroom deals' over Colts teams as he makes reconstruction claim
 

Stenhousemuir chief Iain McMenemy has accused the league and governing body of bribing Lowland League clubs in “grubby backroom deals” with the carrot of possible reconstruction.

On Tuesday it was confirmed that Celtic, Hearts and Rangers can field a Colts side in the fifth tier next season.

It appeared the Colts inclusion in the Lowland League was set to be scrapped with clubs not keen on seeing the division increased to 19 teams following a reported ultimatum to include all three or none at all.

However, a more recent vote saw the 16 clubs split, 8-8, with Lowland League chairman Thomas Brown casting the deciding vote in favour of Colts sides.

The SFA chief Ian Maxwell confirmed the organisation “will oversee a discussion in parallel to propose and implement a long-term plan with the objectives of optimising the pyramid”.

McMenemy believes it is a “bribe" to ensure the three Colts sides were approved. The Stenny chief also warned that reconstruction is unlikely “under these circumstances”.

He told the Daily Mail: "Reconstructing the pyramid was not on the agenda, so you have to ask what's changed? Why now?

“It seems pretty obvious that this issue has been hastily thrown into the negotiations at the 11th hour. We knew nothing about it.

“Those at the negotiating table have offered to look at relegating more League Two clubs from the SPFL in order to bribe the Lowland League into accepting Premiership colt teams into their league next season.

“The manner in which they have gone about this is just not acceptable. Clubs in Leagues One and Two are not here as bargaining chips for Premiership clubs and our fate won't be decided in grubby backroom deals behind our backs.

“I can tell you now that reconstruction will not happen under these circumstances. I feel sorry for the Lowland League clubs who have been deceived into thinking this was likely.”

Sounds like the Stenny Chairman is bricking it.  Excellent stuff.  Hopefully them or Albion Rovers are the next to go.

[Footballfirst]

1 minute ago, Randy Marsh said:

Sounds like the Stenny Chairman is bricking it.  Excellent stuff.  Hopefully them or Albion Rovers are the next to go.

Stenny isn't against B teams, but is definitely against opening up relegation places from L2. In fact he proposed a 3 year moratorium on relegation post covid. Self interest at its worst.

[Mikey1874]

The SFA, even the SFA can see the success of Cove Rangers, Edinburgh City and Kelty Hearts. 

 

Maybe a turning point thanks to these clubs. 

[Stu_HMFC]

1 hour ago, Randy Marsh said:

Sounds like the Stenny Chairman is bricking it.  Excellent stuff.  Hopefully them or Albion Rovers are the next to go.

Stenhousemuir, Albion Rovers, Elgin , Stranraer hope they all go down in the next few years.

[fabienleclerq]

11 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

What is an "appropriate level"?

 

If you deem clubs in the LL as "amateurs", then you should also assign the same label for one championship club, seven in L1 and all ten in L2. Part time football has its place in a pyramid structure in Scotland, just as it is in most other nations. 

 

If you wish to separate the full time clubs from the part time clubs, then fair enough. Let the 24 full time clubs together with any "B" teams run their own league for "professionals".

 

I suppose that's up to the professionals to decide the appropriate level, I already said the teams have a place in the pyramid. 

 

I think the young players likely to make it in the game should be accommodated before these teams, it benefits the sport in this country. If it means they skip a few steps on the pyramid I'm fine with it.

[Sooks]

11 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Stenhousemuir isn't happy about the B team deal with the LL.

 

SPFL chairman hits out at 'bribe' and 'backroom deals' over Colts teams as he makes reconstruction claim
 

Stenhousemuir chief Iain McMenemy has accused the league and governing body of bribing Lowland League clubs in “grubby backroom deals” with the carrot of possible reconstruction.

On Tuesday it was confirmed that Celtic, Hearts and Rangers can field a Colts side in the fifth tier next season.

It appeared the Colts inclusion in the Lowland League was set to be scrapped with clubs not keen on seeing the division increased to 19 teams following a reported ultimatum to include all three or none at all.

However, a more recent vote saw the 16 clubs split, 8-8, with Lowland League chairman Thomas Brown casting the deciding vote in favour of Colts sides.

The SFA chief Ian Maxwell confirmed the organisation “will oversee a discussion in parallel to propose and implement a long-term plan with the objectives of optimising the pyramid”.

McMenemy believes it is a “bribe" to ensure the three Colts sides were approved. The Stenny chief also warned that reconstruction is unlikely “under these circumstances”.

He told the Daily Mail: "Reconstructing the pyramid was not on the agenda, so you have to ask what's changed? Why now?

“It seems pretty obvious that this issue has been hastily thrown into the negotiations at the 11th hour. We knew nothing about it.

“Those at the negotiating table have offered to look at relegating more League Two clubs from the SPFL in order to bribe the Lowland League into accepting Premiership colt teams into their league next season.

“The manner in which they have gone about this is just not acceptable. Clubs in Leagues One and Two are not here as bargaining chips for Premiership clubs and our fate won't be decided in grubby backroom deals behind our backs.

“I can tell you now that reconstruction will not happen under these circumstances. I feel sorry for the Lowland League clubs who have been deceived into thinking this was likely.”

i think getting knocked out of the Scottish Cup by Penicuik Athletic a couple of years ago opened his eyes to where Stenny are in the grand scheme of Scottish Football and that is not the artificially high position they have found themselves in for decades before the pyramid was introduced 

[Flimsy]

12 hours ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:

At least a 3rd of Scottish “top flight” football is essentially amateur. There should be a cull of at least 15-18 teams from Leagues 1 and 2. 
 

There should still be a pyramid but feeding into something like a 14 team SPL and 16/18 team Championship.

 

There might be a ridiculous economic need for a small SPL but there is no need for 3 other small leagues whatsoever.

 

 

Absolutely this, and regionalised below the 2nd league. I actually think many current league teams would be no worse off or even better off.  Thinking of Albion Rovers complaining about having to travel to the Highlands a couple of years ago for example. Also the strength of the Ayrshire juniors over the decades where they were able to play their local rivals each week and attract bigger crowds than some SFL teams. Won't happen because of clubs like Stenhousemuir of course.

[sr2008]

I would be pretty shocked if their was any vote in the 2022/2023 season around reconstruction/amending the pyramid system, it would be interesting to see if any League 2 clubs had a different view on automatic relegation and promotion if a vote went ahead.

 

As it stands they have probably the best scenario you can face, finish bottom of your league, don’t get automatically relegated and get two games to save yourself against a Lowland or Highland team who have already played a demanding two legged play off.

 

The flip of this is that I wonder if some clubs are looking at East Stirling and Berwick now that the system has been running for a few years and the difficulty in getting back up due to the above system and in turn thinking automatic promotion and relegation isn’t a bad thing should they have a bad season and drop to the Lowland or Highland.

 

Their must be a panic setting in for teams like Albion Rovers, Elgin etc they are one bad season from dropping out the league and then facing a real challenge to get back up.

 

I watched the Lowland league most weeks last season and I would be surprised if Cowdenbeath can get themselves back up at the first time of asking, I suspect they will be similar to Berwick and East Stirling.

[Ford Prentice]

15 hours ago, jbee647 said:

I’d think the likes of McGill, Smith and Stone will go out on loan to higher end championship clubs, while the younger ones in that level below will play in the B Team, Euan Henderson will I imagine be in the first team squad

 

 

 

 

The distinct impression I got from Robbie's SATF interview would be that those three (whom he specifically name checked) would be in or around the first team squad and/or play in the B team. Stone he certainly saw as playing for the B team to ensure game time. Don't think we'll see many out on loan this season. He also indicated Henderson has earned a place in the first team squad but will need to make it his own.

[AlphonseCapone]

On 07/06/2022 at 22:23, Rudy T said:

I certainly can’t think of any other reason why they’d want us in there. To take it a step further for as long as they’re qualifying for the CL groups and then potentially going into knock out stages of European competitions they’re relevant, making good money, attracting better players and can make a case for leaving Scotland, which is their ultimate goal. While they’re regarded as the massive fish in considerably small pond no other league really takes much notice of them.

 

Maybe I don't want to give them the credit of that level of cunning but I prefer the earlier theory on this thread that it was going to be 2/3 and neither were 100% confident they'd be one of the 2 so opted for a united front. 

[jamboinglasgow]

1 hour ago, Ford Prentice said:

The distinct impression I got from Robbie's SATF interview would be that those three (whom he specifically name checked) would be in or around the first team squad and/or play in the B team. Stone he certainly saw as playing for the B team to ensure game time. Don't think we'll see many out on loan this season. He also indicated Henderson has earned a place in the first team squad but will need to make it his own.

 

Yeah I agree from listening to that. Hearts have been clear they want something where players are playing week in and out, and means they can jump into the first team and have match fitness. Would be weird for the club to then send the players most likely to be first team out on loan again.

[Hesh]

2 hours ago, Ford Prentice said:

The distinct impression I got from Robbie's SATF interview would be that those three (whom he specifically name checked) would be in or around the first team squad and/or play in the B team. Stone he certainly saw as playing for the B team to ensure game time. Don't think we'll see many out on loan this season. He also indicated Henderson has earned a place in the first team squad but will need to make it his own.

It can be difficult for goalies to get the right loan as clearly its important you play. This would be guaranteed in the b team.

 

Iirc livi had a keeper at Edin City and Motherwell at Gretna. Going higher up the pyramid there will be more competition for gametime 

[Footballfirst]

I saw this on another forum:

 

"Speaking to davie innes (tranent chairman) today, they'd lined up a friendly against hearts who'd promised to field a strong line up. He put up a statement on social media stating Tranent were very much against the guest teams. Hearts pulled out of the friendly."

[RustyRightPeg]

On 08/06/2022 at 18:05, jbee647 said:

I’d think the likes of McGill, Smith and Stone will go out on loan to higher end championship clubs, while the younger ones in that level below will play in the B Team, Euan Henderson will I imagine be in the first team squad

 

 

 

 

McGill & Smith did as much to get into the first team picture as Henderson did based on last season. 

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

7 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I saw this on another forum:

 

"Speaking to davie innes (tranent chairman) today, they'd lined up a friendly against hearts who'd promised to field a strong line up. He put up a statement on social media stating Tranent were very much against the guest teams. Hearts pulled out of the friendly."

1. Calling bullshit

2 Should have kept his trap shut. 
 

I think Hearts are now sick of other tin pot teams having a pop at us given what happened 2 years ago and quite right too. Tranent can ram it.

As if we’d send a strong team to play them anyway. Seriously doubt it is true.

[The Treasurer]

It was said by some on here at the time of the covid vote that Hearts were too soft or we were just rolling over and taking it. 

I think we are now seeing the club putting our interests first and not worrying about what happens to those shitty wee clubs that tried to shaft us

[Pans Jambo]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I saw this on another forum:

 

"Speaking to davie innes (tranent chairman) today, they'd lined up a friendly against hearts who'd promised to field a strong line up. He put up a statement on social media stating Tranent were very much against the guest teams. Hearts pulled out of the friendly."

If theyre no interfering with horses, hosting the hibs squad in their coffee shop then theyre slavering pesh on social media. 
 

Tranent. A villiage with quite a lot more than 1 idiot!

[SomethingAboutObua]

On 08/06/2022 at 19:41, Footballfirst said:

"The manner in which they have gone about this is just not acceptable. Clubs in Leagues One and Two are not here as bargaining chips for Premiership clubs and our fate won't be decided in grubby backroom deals behind our backs.

“I can tell you now that reconstruction will not happen under these circumstances.

The one size fits all SPFL format isn't working 

So they absolutely will not entertain reconstruction discussions because of how much it's not working 

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I saw this on another forum:

 

"Speaking to davie innes (tranent chairman) today, they'd lined up a friendly against hearts who'd promised to field a strong line up. He put up a statement on social media stating Tranent were very much against the guest teams. Hearts pulled out of the friendly."

What did he expect. Sick of these pishy wee blowhards telling us what we should be doing.

Hopefully he has cost his own club a good payday.

[SomethingAboutObua]

I can see this working out in a new set up for all the professional teams. We can't have a bigger league because there's not enough pro teams for 2 decent tiers, but if all 25 pro teams agree to allow 3+ B teams in the second tier with 3 up 3 down between the prem and second tier, we could have an 18 team prem and 12+ team second tier with B teams that can't go up or down. 

 

Unlikely yes, but I can see it happening... 

[CMc]

B teams look like a useful addition but not a solution to lack of reserve football. 
 

Forgive me if this has been asked already, are their rules that prevent us from booking midweek friendlies for our reserves every Wednesday night, or just significant logistical challenges?

[Deevers]

11 hours ago, SomethingAboutObua said:

The one size fits all SPFL format isn't working 

So they absolutely will not entertain reconstruction discussions because of how much it's not working 

The tail still trying to wag the dog.  Eventually, maybe teams like Stenhousemuir will be playing in a league like the Lowland one and the SPFL will be the domain of full time professional teams. 

[fabienleclerq]

17 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I saw this on another forum:

 

"Speaking to davie innes (tranent chairman) today, they'd lined up a friendly against hearts who'd promised to field a strong line up. He put up a statement on social media stating Tranent were very much against the guest teams. Hearts pulled out of the friendly."

Good.

 

 

[OTT]

On 08/06/2022 at 21:16, Footballfirst said:

Stenny isn't against B teams, but is definitely against opening up relegation places from L2. In fact he proposed a 3 year moratorium on relegation post covid. Self interest at its worst.

 

Its to be expected though right? Self interest. Its about the one constant in Scottish football. 

 

Talking a step back, Rangers specifically seem to have benefitted last season from having a B team, Lowry, King etc. all were playing for them and ended up with first team appearances at the end of the season. If it can lead to more talent being developed then that can only be a good thing for our national team. Would like to see B teams in League 2 at some point, provided all teams that want to field them are given the chance to. 

[OTT]

21 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

It was said by some on here at the time of the covid vote that Hearts were too soft or we were just rolling over and taking it. 

I think we are now seeing the club putting our interests first and not worrying about what happens to those shitty wee clubs that tried to shaft us

 

Sure looks that way, and definitely the spirit of 'Only Hearts' so glad to see it. 

 

We're not changing Scottish football so may as well work within the confines to try and put the club in the strongest possible place.