cosanostra Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 6 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said: Blank cheque?? He brought through the likes of locke, mcmanus , Ritchie, johnstone , naismith and a few more ! Bought the likes of cameron , mccann, weir for buttons and Adam, rousset , salvatori , flogel were free transfers Cameron was £400k and John Millar. Worth every penny but not sure I'd describe that as buttons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnking123 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Some players ended up on good wages after the SMG money. Think Adam was on 8k a week, Flogel 5k. Worth it though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, johnking123 said: Some players ended up on good wages after the SMG money. Think Adam was on 8k a week, Flogel 5k. Worth it though! Mad to think all those years ago players were earning those kinds of sums. Difficult to compare different eras and perhaps unfair but we do seem to have gone for quantity over quality and overspent somewhat on experience in recent years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambogemz Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 32 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said: Blank cheque?? He brought through the likes of locke, mcmanus , Ritchie, johnstone , naismith and a few more ! Bought the likes of cameron , mccann, weir for buttons and Adam, rousset , salvatori , flogel were free transfers We spiraled into Millions of pounds of debt in this phase of club history. Great time to be a supporter but let's not pretend we weren't living way beyond our means like the vast majority of the rest of the league. It's well known that JJ could bully CR into an expensive signing or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Reekin' Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, jambogemz said: We spiraled into Millions of pounds of debt in this phase of club history. Great time to be a supporter but let's not pretend we weren't living way beyond our means like the vast majority of the rest of the league. It's well known that JJ could bully CR into an expensive signing or two. Yep, the post-SMG phase - not before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said: Yep, the post-SMG phase - not before. We were millions in debt before SMG came along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john thomas Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 41 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said: Blank cheque?? He brought through the likes of locke, mcmanus , Ritchie, johnstone , naismith and a few more ! Bought the likes of cameron , mccann, weir for buttons and Adam, rousset , salvatori , flogel were free transfers Of course all those players brought in were paid buttons ! Great signings which we all enjoyed . Unfortunately it sent us down a very slippery slope . This has been discussed before . Jefferies, as far as I know , was the last Scottish manager to deal with players contracts . Arithmetic is not his strong point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambogemz Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 10 minutes ago, graygo said: We were millions in debt before SMG came along. Exactly and was why we took.the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbee647 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 14 minutes ago, john thomas said: Of course all those players brought in were paid buttons ! Great signings which we all enjoyed . Unfortunately it sent us down a very slippery slope . This has been discussed before . Jefferies, as far as I know , was the last Scottish manager to deal with players contracts . Arithmetic is not his strong point But a wonderful manager... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john thomas Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 7 minutes ago, jbee647 said: But a wonderful manager... Not having a go at him . Think he would probably agree re doing sums . Would not be the only manager to think his job was to push the chairman to agree to signing certain players . Of course the chairman's job should be to keep things within budget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthomas Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 1 hour ago, TheBigO said: He really didn't. They were all PRE-SMG. Even after SMG, I wouldnt say blank cheque. More of a very specific cheque thrust upon him with ultimatums attached. Clearly something went wrong there in that case . Pre or post SMG financially things went very wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigO Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 53 minutes ago, johnthomas said: Clearly something went wrong there in that case . Pre or post SMG financially things went very wrong And a certain Mr Robinson, who has still never paid to get in to Tynecastle in his puff, caused that. The egotistical prick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthomas Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 32 minutes ago, TheBigO said: And a certain Mr Robinson, who has still never paid to get in to Tynecastle in his puff, caused that. The egotistical prick. Totally agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ToqueJambo Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, jambogemz said: We spiraled into Millions of pounds of debt in this phase of club history. Great time to be a supporter but let's not pretend we weren't living way beyond our means like the vast majority of the rest of the league. It's well known that JJ could bully CR into an expensive signing or two. I can't remember but was it not the stadium redevelopment brought on by the Taylor Report that put is in the most debt? Followed by over-spending on players to try to keep up with or at least get closer to Rangers. As you say this affected everyone, but Robinson allowed it to happen then almost destroyed the club trying to correct his own mistakes. Edited February 9, 2021 by ToqueJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambonian Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Thing with Irving for me is....if i am watching a game on tv, does he stand out during the game? Often to me the answer is no. He does some things well, other things not so much. Sometimes he's even anonymous. I have watched other teams on tv and noticed players that have stood out more than him, dominated a midfield and contributed effectively well. That's not to say that Irving couldn't or wouldn't be able to, it's just an observation on my part as things stand at this moment in time. Irving for me is still in the "player with potential" category and nothing more. I'd be delighted if he was to re-sign and continue the progress. However if he does decide to leave anyway then fine, i wouldn't lose any sleep. Midfielders are ten-a-penny but i hope Irving can prove his potential and we make a good few quid out of him in the next couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyces beard Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) The EFL have just had to scrap the salary cap in league one and league two, was found to be unlawfull. Could make it much harder to get Andy to sign now. He may get more offers. Edited February 9, 2021 by jambo3tevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ToqueJambo Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 28 minutes ago, jambo3tevie said: The EFL have just had to scrap the salary cap in league one and league two, was found to be unlawfull. Could make it much harder to get Andy to sign now. He may get more offers. He's off his trolley if he moves to EFL 1 or 2 at this age for money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Irving is a good player for us in the Championship. He may be a good player for us in the top league. He may be a good player for someone else in a better league still. Lots of maybes in there imo to be offering a particularly good contract. Offer him what we think he's worth, take it or leave it. Takes it - great he may develop into a really good player for us going forward Leaves it - there's plenty other players out there who may be a really good player for us going forward I loved Callum Paterson for us (and still like watching him play now!) but also called that he'd never play more than 1 season in the EPL whilst plenty others were saying he'd get plenty of EPL offers if Cardiff went down. I'd stick my neck on the line and say Irving will never play more than 1 season in one of the top leagues. That's not to knock him, I'd rather we keep a hold of him and like him as a player but if he goes, he goes, we won't miss him hugely imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) I think the issue is are we offering him what he’s worth. Only anecdotally but it sounds like with Irving and Hickey we were a bit sniffy about giving them a fair contract you would expect of a first team player. Edited February 9, 2021 by Diadora Van Basten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 20 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said: I think the issue is are we offering him what he’s worth. Only anecdotally but it sounds like with Irving and Hickey we were a bit sniffy about giving them a fair contract you would expect of a first team player. Those two statements totally contradict each other 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishSandstorm Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 9 hours ago, jambonian said: Thing with Irving for me is....if i am watching a game on tv, does he stand out during the game? Often to me the answer is no. He does some things well, other things not so much. Sometimes he's even anonymous. I have watched other teams on tv and noticed players that have stood out more than him, dominated a midfield and contributed effectively well. That's not to say that Irving couldn't or wouldn't be able to, it's just an observation on my part as things stand at this moment in time. Irving for me is still in the "player with potential" category and nothing more. I'd be delighted if he was to re-sign and continue the progress. However if he does decide to leave anyway then fine, i wouldn't lose any sleep. Midfielders are ten-a-penny but i hope Irving can prove his potential and we make a good few quid out of him in the next couple of years. I have to respectfully disagree here. He absolutely stands out to me when I watch him play. His passing is a joy to watch and I will miss it if we lose him. He also is developing a penchant for scoring some cracking goals from distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hogfather Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 I'm going to start off by saying I really like Andy Irving. Good technique, Hearts play better when he's in the side and he's a supporter as well. It's always good to have people around who "get" the club. There's every chance he'll develop into a very good player for Hearts and earn us a decent figure in a couple of years time. That said, I remember how Pallardo was a cut above in his first season, in a much harder league, but really struggled once we were promoted. You can't use Championship football as a barometer for how good a player will be in the Premiership. If he goes, he goes with my best wishes but I won't be as upset as I was when we lost the likes of Cameron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, Nunya Business said: I'm going to start off by saying I really like Andy Irving. Good technique, Hearts play better when he's in the side and he's a supporter as well. It's always good to have people around who "get" the club. There's every chance he'll develop into a very good player for Hearts and earn us a decent figure in a couple of years time. That said, I remember how Pallardo was a cut above in his first season, in a much harder league, but really struggled once we were promoted. You can't use Championship football as a barometer for how good a player will be in the Premiership. If he goes, he goes with my best wishes but I won't be as upset as I was when we lost the likes of Cameron. Totally agree. As always some vastly over inflate a players ability, some talk it down. Truth is usually somewhere in the middle. At this moment in time Irving is a good prospect with still a lot to prove. Not a chance he should be one of our higher earners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upgotheheads Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 hours ago, hmfc_liam06 said: Totally agree. As always some vastly over inflate a players ability, some talk it down. Truth is usually somewhere in the middle. At this moment in time Irving is a good prospect with still a lot to prove. Not a chance he should be one of our higher earners. Who would you say, of the current first team squad, is a better player than he is for the position they play? I'll give you Craig Gordon, but who else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, upgotheheads said: Who would you say, of the current first team squad, is a better player than he is for the position they play? I'll give you Craig Gordon, but who else? The fact that our central midfield is pretty shite doesn't mean Irving deserves to be one of our highest earners ffs. Boyce, Smith, Kingsley, Haring, Naismith, Walker, Mackay-Steven and even Halliday to an extent all deserve to be in the bracket of highest earners at the club, given their history and status with the game. Irving is a good prospect, nothing more at this stage and deserves a wage that reflects that. For me, thats in the second bracket of players at the club. If Irving is the be all end all, where are the floods of offers for his services? Hasn't been a peep in the media. All of this comes across as anti-Irving, which i am absolutely not, but folk are going way over the top about his place at this club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, ToqueJambo said: He's off his trolley if he moves to EFL 1 or 2 at this age for money. He'd be moving to a lower level. Proves himself at Hearts in the SPL, could get a far better move for himself. Edited February 10, 2021 by Cruyff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stendel'sGorgieArmy Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 The contract negotiations should never have come to this point. He was showing promise in the first team at spells last season in a struggling team and the contract should have been offered then. Instead we sat about with our fingers up our arses until he got a run in the first team, showed some promise and now is, rightly, looking for better terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john thomas Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 On 09/02/2021 at 15:32, jambonian said: Thing with Irving for me is....if i am watching a game on tv, does he stand out during the game? Often to me the answer is no. He does some things well, other things not so much. Sometimes he's even anonymous. I have watched other teams on tv and noticed players that have stood out more than him, dominated a midfield and contributed effectively well. That's not to say that Irving couldn't or wouldn't be able to, it's just an observation on my part as things stand at this moment in time. Irving for me is still in the "player with potential" category and nothing more. I'd be delighted if he was to re-sign and continue the progress. However if he does decide to leave anyway then fine, i wouldn't lose any sleep. Midfielders are ten-a-penny but i hope Irving can prove his potential and we make a good few quid out of him in the next couple of years. Find that a strange statement . I , like many , concentrate on Hearts players when watching a game . If you do that you would see that virtually everything goes through Irving . Finished article ? Of course not but he is pretty good . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finlay James Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 46 minutes ago, Stendel'sGorgieArmy said: The contract negotiations should never have come to this point. He was showing promise in the first team at spells last season in a struggling team and the contract should have been offered then. Instead we sat about with our fingers up our arses until he got a run in the first team, showed some promise and now is, rightly, looking for better terms. Exactly, Stendel should have handled this and Robbie is now picking up the mess left behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr ewing Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Cruyff said: He'd be moving to a lower level. Proves himself at Hearts in the SPL, could get a far better move for himself. Championship teams can offer him more money. Could do well abroad too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyboy7 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 He is clearly not staying and now using us to show clubs his skills. Well he can sit on the bench for me....Sick of this happening with every young player. hes had around 8 good games in a maroon shirt ffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hogfather Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 44 minutes ago, jr ewing said: Championship teams can offer him more money. Could do well abroad too. Anyone touting him for the English Championship or the bigger leagues in Europe are getting slightly ahead of themselves. He's playing well this season and has good potential for Scottish football, but he's a long way off being able to start for anyone in Englands 2nd tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Nunya Business said: Anyone touting him for the English Championship or the bigger leagues in Europe are getting slightly ahead of themselves. He's playing well this season and has good potential for Scottish football, but he's a long way off being able to start for anyone in Englands 2nd tier. Few Championship clubs would be able to justify the luxury of an Irving as a starter from.the off. It's all athleticism and pace Abroad might be more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 22 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said: I think the issue is are we offering him what he’s worth. Only anecdotally but it sounds like with Irving and Hickey we were a bit sniffy about giving them a fair contract you would expect of a first team player. What's he worth? Hasn't proven himself in any league above the Scottish Championship yet... I think this lad McEnuff is about to show us what a real central midfielder looks like and all the slow-coaches who trot around our midfield are going to start looking a bit like carthorses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr ewing Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said: Few Championship clubs would be able to justify the luxury of an Irving as a starter from.the off. It's all athleticism and pace Abroad might be more likely. Abroad it is then. 🤗 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 The real issue isn't really about Irving's ability (there's no media buzz cos he can go without a bidding war that involves a fee) or how he views his best options but Hearts potentially realising very little from his development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ToqueJambo Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Stendel'sGorgieArmy said: The contract negotiations should never have come to this point. He was showing promise in the first team at spells last season in a struggling team and the contract should have been offered then. Instead we sat about with our fingers up our arses until he got a run in the first team, showed some promise and now is, rightly, looking for better terms. We've had two manager changes, a pandemic and a wrongful demotion in the interim. Not sure anyone's been sitting around, fingers up arses or not. Edited February 10, 2021 by ToqueJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ToqueJambo Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, chrisyboy7 said: He is clearly not staying and now using us to show clubs his skills. Well he can sit on the bench for me....Sick of this happening with every young player. hes had around 8 good games in a maroon shirt ffs Happens all the time just now unfortunately. Even the OF are losing good prospects before they've even played for the first team (Gilmour to Chelsea probably the best example). At least we got Irving for a bit, and who knows maybe he will sign. Edited February 10, 2021 by ToqueJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisyboy7 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, ToqueJambo said: Happens all the time just now unfortunately. Even the OF are losing good prospects before they've even played for the first team. At least we got Irving for a bit, and who knows maybe he will sign. I would rather we replaced him now. lots of midfielders available. He's had plenty time and needs to know he can now do as he pleases. I only want players committed to our club to wear the shirt. not someone working their ticket......ha can train and that's it for me. We owe him zero...He owes us plenty and if had any respect for the club he would sign and then leave giving the club a good fee they can invest in the academy where he actually came from.. I'm positive that if he was staying he would have signed by now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccarton3 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said: We've had two manager changes, a pandemic and a wrongful demotion in the interim. Not sure anyone's been sitting around, fingers up arses or not. Similar clubs with similar resources are achieving different outcomes with actual or potential player sales. Is it just random? Our last two 'successes' were a bit fortunate to achieve results (Sow and Hickey). Hope the Sporting Director is looking at, and advising on the whole set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, Spellczech said: What's he worth? Hasn't proven himself in any league above the Scottish Championship yet... I think this lad McEnuff is about to show us what a real central midfielder looks like and all the slow-coaches who trot around our midfield are going to start looking a bit like carthorses... I think you just need to look at our performances in the games he hasn’t played to see his value. He is above Lee, Haring and Halliday who are Scot Prem players and Damour who is supposed to be English Premier League. McEnuff looks a good prospect but I will reserve judgement until I have seen him in a few games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Stendel'sGorgieArmy said: The contract negotiations should never have come to this point. He was showing promise in the first team at spells last season in a struggling team and the contract should have been offered then. Instead we sat about with our fingers up our arses until he got a run in the first team, showed some promise and now is, rightly, looking for better terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, jr ewing said: Championship teams can offer him more money. Could do well abroad too. They could but he might not get the game time he needs to develop. Abroad might be a better move for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 8 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said: I think you just need to look at our performances in the games he hasn’t played to see his value. He is above Lee, Haring and Halliday who are Scot Prem players and Damour who is supposed to be English Premier League. McEnuff looks a good prospect but I will reserve judgement until I have seen him in a few games. I agree he is better than our other CMs, but that is faint praise TBH... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmfc_liam06 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, Spellczech said: I agree he is better than our other CMs, but that is faint praise TBH... I reckon we could upgrade the middle of the park without much trouble. Irving included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ToqueJambo Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said: Similar clubs with similar resources are achieving different outcomes with actual or potential player sales. Is it just random? Our last two 'successes' were a bit fortunate to achieve results (Sow and Hickey). Hope the Sporting Director is looking at, and advising on the whole set up. I'm not sure it's fair to dismiss the good things that happen at Hearts as good fortune. If it was Hibs who got Sow and brought through Hickey then got the performances and money we did people on here would no doubt be saying we should be more like them. There's not need to put "successes" in quotes - they were genuine successes. Edited February 10, 2021 by ToqueJambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, ToqueJambo said: I'm not sure it's fair to dismiss the good things that happen at Hearts as good fortune. If it was Hibs who got Sow and brought through Hickey then got the performances and money we did people on here would no doubt be saying we should be more like them. There's not need to put "successes" in quotes - they were genuine successes. Who needs rival fans when our own are so desperate to downplay our successes. 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deevers Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 39 minutes ago, Alex Kintner said: Who needs rival fans when our own are so desperate to downplay our successes. 🙄 Well there’s the rub. To my mind quite a few on here who do that ain’t Hearts fans. No doubt about that what so ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upgotheheads Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 48 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said: I reckon we could upgrade the middle of the park without much trouble. Irving included. Which parts of the team have we ever upgraded without much trouble? From goalie to striker the evidence of the last few years (and long before) is if you've got a good player do your best to hang on to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Kintner Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 16 minutes ago, Deevers said: Well there’s the rub. To my mind quite a few on here who do that ain’t Hearts fans. No doubt about that what so ever. Some probably aren’t but most probably are. I sit in front of one of them at Tynecastle unfortunately 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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