The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Konrad von Carstein]

3 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

No you are not. If you are not pro independence then you are a Tory traitor, that's how it works.

One, one poster on here uses that kind of rhetoric,  one.

 

[Spellczech]

1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

Why don't you answer the bit about the SNP being unable to balance the budget? You've repeatedly made that claim.

 

Immigration is Home a home office function. The reason so many people are trecking across the world to get here is because of UK foreign policy as in Iraq, Afghanistan,Syria, Libya and others.

 

Our standing in the world is very low i believe because we are perceived as America's henchman. Something that has impacted on us for many years. Just this week a report shows UK soldiers more likely to die and be injured in Afghanistan than any other country. We were in Helmand province, the most dangerous part showing our special relationship pals just how much pain we were prepred to take for their interests.

 

As far as int agreements are concerned see Northern ireland.

 

      The Russians have been coming for as long as i can remember but never arrived. We were supposed to respect a buffer zone between Nato countries and Russia, we were supposed to play a part in the reduction of nuclear weapons we are now increasing ours having torn up the agreements. Our relationships with other countries (foreign policy) is determined by what America wants not by what is good for us. The Russophobia is ridiculous. History shows us America is not the friend many think it is.

 

 I dont think other countries ignore EU laws. i think all countries have had difficulties at times. I would be interested to know which EU laws we implemented that annoyed so many UK citizens. Seems to me the biggest driver in leaving the EU was immigration. This was the pretext and opportunity for unscrupulous businesses to further access our public services and lower standards while evading accountability.

Again...You want to tear into my argument before you actually make one yourself. You are the one against the status quo. You are the one who needs to change my mind by making an argument, not by demanding I make an argument for doing nothing. Please try to understand. You have it all back to front.

[Ron Burgundy]

1 minute ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

One, one poster on here uses that kind of rhetoric,  one.

 

The traitor part maybe. He does their cause no favours whatsoever.

 

However there are many who as soon as you post something anti-SNP their go to retort is "aye but whatabout the Tories".

 

It is possible to see through both of these horrible parties and to actually hate both.

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

You just proved my point...You're claiming victory yet you haven't convinced me at all.

 

I'm not a Unionist. I AM the middle!!! 

 

In the past I've voted Libdem, Labour, Conservative, SNP and I even voted Green once - before they decided to sell out and just ape the SNP by flying off to the left to win votes...

 

Argues for the union, against independence, claims to sit in the middle.

 

I haven't claimed victory, I'm asking you to make the same argument for the union that you're demanding from independence.

And I've voted for multiple parties myself, so what?

 

The fact is you have a firm point of view on this, you're in favour of the union as opposed to independence. That's literally what a unionist is.

 

Anyway, your complaint about the independence side can be levelled at the unionist side, so what are the strong, coherent, economically sound arguments for the union that satisfy?

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Ron Burgundy said:

The traitor part maybe. He does their cause no favours whatsoever.

 

However there are many who as soon as you post something anti-SNP their go to retort is "aye but whatabout the Tories".

 

It is possible to see through both of these horrible parties and to actually hate both.

And yet only you and SC have brought up the tories on this page when others are trying to discuss the topic

[scott herbertson]

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Again...You want to tear into my argument before you actually make one yourself. You are the one against the status quo. You are the one who needs to change my mind by making an argument, not by demanding I make an argument for doing nothing. Please try to understand. You have it all back to front.

 

 

My simple starter for ten - many small European countries seem to have better run economies than the UK, in terms of national debt. In the medium to long term I believe that with its natural resources and assets Scotland could at least match the average for those small countries. That would be better than being in the union.

 

A second one  - pensions are generally higher in those smaller European countries than they are in the UK. Common sense suggests in the medium to longer term Scotland would be able to afford to pay those levels too.

 

A third one. I don't want nuclear weapons of mass destruction based in my country. There is no chance of removing them while being part of the UK given the major UK parties all want to keep them

 

That's three things I think would be better, none in the short term, but for my kids (I'm 65)

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, Ron Burgundy said:

The traitor part maybe. He does their cause no favours whatsoever.

 

However there are many who as soon as you post something anti-SNP their go to retort is "aye but whatabout the Tories".

 

It is possible to see through both of these horrible parties and to actually hate both.

 

The "what about the tories"  retort is usually reserved for the numerous trolls and WUM who only post on these threads to denigrate the Scot Gov and indeed thier own country regardless of facts, policy or actual power that they hold and therefore ability to influence things.

 

 

[Ron Burgundy]

4 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

The "what about the tories"  retort is usually reserved for the numerous trolls and WUM who only post on these threads to denigrate the Scot Gov and indeed thier own country regardless of facts, policy or actual power that they hold and therefore ability to influence things.

 

 

There are an equal amount of trolls on both sides IMO.

[Mysterion]

12 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

My simple starter for ten - many small European countries seem to have better run economies than the UK, in terms of national debt. In the medium to long term I believe that with its natural resources and assets Scotland could at least match the average for those small countries. That would be better than being in the union.

 

A second one  - pensions are generally higher in those smaller European countries than they are in the UK. Common sense suggests in the medium to longer term Scotland would be able to afford to pay those levels too.

 

A third one. I don't want nuclear weapons of mass destruction based in my country. There is no chance of removing them while being part of the UK given the major UK parties all want to keep them

 

That's three things I think would be better, none in the short term, but for my kids (I'm 65)

 

Not advocating paying out higher state pensions (at this point or anytime in the near future) but i can see the benefit of not having to spend billions on military hardware of which most of it is never used/relatively ineffective.

 

Not having this burden does look like it would be a massive help to build the support structures needed for an independent Scotland.

 

 

[coconut doug]

24 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Again...You want to tear into my argument before you actually make one yourself. You are the one against the status quo. You are the one who needs to change my mind by making an argument, not by demanding I make an argument for doing nothing. Please try to understand. You have it all back to front.

 

  You are telling us the Scottish government can't balance the budget. It's nonsense, how can anybody debate with somebody who believes that? You will never be convinced because you are not engaging with anything but your own thoughts. I'm not trying to peruade you merely challenging the statements you make. Why make them if you dont want to discuss them?

 

[scott herbertson]

1 minute ago, Mysterion said:

 

Not advocating paying out higher state pensions (at this point or anytime in the near future) but i can see the benefit of not having to spend billions on military hardware of which most of it is never used/relatively ineffective.

 

Not having this burden does look like it would be a massive help to build the support structures needed for an independent Scotland.

 

 

 

I get that - I think the pension system needs to be adjusted (I don't agree with the state pension for higher private pension holders like myself  for example  - though I'm not offering to give it back when it comes....!). Ireland I think has a higher pension but it is more directly means tested.

[Spellczech]

48 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Argues for the union, against independence, claims to sit in the middle.

 

I haven't claimed victory, I'm asking you to make the same argument for the union that you're demanding from independence.

And I've voted for multiple parties myself, so what?

 

The fact is you have a firm point of view on this, you're in favour of the union as opposed to independence. That's literally what a unionist is.

 

Anyway, your complaint about the independence side can be levelled at the unionist side, so what are the strong, coherent, economically sound arguments for the union that satisfy?

Saying that Nationalists have not made a case for independence is not the same as arguing for the Union...Until Nationalists understand why people are resistant to their Braveheart calls for a leap into tiny nationhood, they won't get the votes they need...

[Konrad von Carstein]

46 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

There are an equal amount of trolls on both sides IMO.

Disagree.

There are two in particular that post with the sole intention of looking for bites but will not engage in discussion the way many others do.

Not seen many, if any, grenade chuckers from the independance posters

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Saying that Nationalists have not made a case for independence is not the same as arguing for the Union...Until Nationalists understand why people are resistant to their Braveheart calls for a leap into tiny nationhood, they won't get the votes they need...

You're not just doing that, you're giving reasons why it's a bad idea and making up standards that need to be met by the side you're against but not the side you're for. There are some instances where life isn't binary but on this subject it absolutely is. In making an argument for independence you're 100% arguing against the union, and in arguing against independence you're 100% arguing for the union.

 

"Braveheart calls for a leap into tiny nationhood" but you're not a unionist. Again,

 

 

38 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

I get that - I think the pension system needs to be adjusted (I don't agree with the state pension for higher private pension holders like myself  for example  - though I'm not offering to give it back when it comes....!). Ireland I think has a higher pension but it is more directly means tested.

Pretty much everyone in Europe has a higher pension despite our being one of the richest nations.

[manaliveits105]

We need more grenade chuckers imo 

[Konrad von Carstein]

32 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

We need more grenade chuckers imo 

Naw, you and mini you are more than enough!

[Konrad von Carstein]

5 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Are Humza Yusuf's comments re 'booting out' any employees found guilty of sectarian singing at Rangers wise? 

 

Are there not employment law procedures that may result in warnings, education and progress rather than unemployment? I'm not excusing the hate-filled bigots that peddle these ditties under the guise of 'traditional party tunes' (especially being from two Catholic family lines, myself), but is it wise for the Justice Secretary to start tweeting and demanding sackings before a case is even brought? I thought we quite rightly mocked Donald Trump for the very same sort of populist, posturing crap.

If I was caught on film being a bigoted arse and therefore potentially shading my employers reputation by association...the least I would expect would be a written warning, people have been emptied for things less controversial than singing FTP!

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Not disputing the scummy behaviour, nor any consequences such behaviour ought to merit, Konnie, merely that we seem to be slipping into governing by Twitter. Slippery slope.

Not read what was said, but if he is subtly telling them to get their house in order , not lip service as they normally do...then it's about time...

[Swahili Jambo]

Stop the bus.  Wee Nic and THE SNP IN CHARGE for another (fill the number) years.  Great day.  Tick tock.

[theshed]

44 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Are Humza Yusuf's comments re 'booting out' any employees found guilty of sectarian singing at Rangers wise? 

 

Are there not employment law procedures that may result in warnings, education and progress rather than unemployment? I'm not excusing the hate-filled bigots that peddle these ditties under the guise of 'traditional party tunes' (especially being from two Catholic family lines, myself), but is it wise for the Justice Secretary to start tweeting and demanding sackings before a case is even brought? I thought we quite rightly mocked Donald Trump for the very same sort of populist, posturing crap.

How humza yousaf is in the job he’s in is a mystery. The guy spends more time on Twitter than working 

 

This is the guy who was made transport minister a few years back and said “I don’t know much about transport” 

Two months later caught driving without insurance and look where he is now 🤷‍♀️

[Dazo]

2 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Disagree.

There are two in particular that post with the sole intention of looking for bites but will not engage in discussion the way many others do.

Not seen many, if any, grenade chuckers from the independance posters

 

26 minutes ago, Swahili Jambo said:

Stop the bus.  Wee Nic and THE SNP IN CHARGE for another (fill the number) years.  Great day.  Tick tock.

🤔

 

Didnt take long to blow that particular myth out the water. 😂

[Konrad von Carstein]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

 

🤔

 

Didnt take long to blow that particular myth out the water. 😂

Although I did say "many"

Edited May 18, 2021 by Konrad von Carstein

[Dazo]

Just now, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

I did wonder if you were maybe at the wind up when you said it but to be fair I think we can all be guilty of not seeing that element amongst our own sides. 👍

[manaliveits105]

25 minutes ago, theshed said:

How humza yousaf is in the job he’s in is a mystery. The guy spends more time on Twitter than working 

 

This is the guy who was made transport minister a few years back and said “I don’t know much about transport” 

Two months later caught driving without insurance and look where he is now 🤷‍♀️

In any other country that would be unacceptable - only in snp Scotland would he then go on to become justice minister - it’s really quite sad what we have become 

[Mysterion]

33 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

In any other country that would be unacceptable - only in snp Scotland would he then go on to become justice minister - it’s really quite sad what we have become 

 

The current Home Secretary was guilty of breaching the ministerial code for bullying and previously has resigned from her cabinet role (for misleading the PM and parliament over meeting lobbyists). 

 

Like you say - in any other country MPs in cabinet roles after major incidents would be unacceptable.... only in Scotland... oh wait. 🤔

 

 

 

[manaliveits105]

Misleading Parliament you say 🤔

[The Real Maroonblood]

From all on Kickback we congratulate Nicola for being re-elected as First Minister.

[Swahili Jambo]

The pain and wailing is a sweet sound to my ears.  Deal with it.  Scotland has voted and WE voted in a land slide SNP Scottish Government.  DEAL WITH IT.  Tick tock.

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

From all on Kickback we congratulate Nicola for being re-elected as First Minister.

Yes, long may she reign

[Cade]

"I'm just going to totally ignore the antics of Rees-Mogg, Hancock, Grayling, Patel, Johnson, Truss, Frost, Gove and all the other tossers and try to lecture people about how bad the SNP are and how we'd be better off being ruled directly from London"

 

[Spellczech]

4 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

  You are telling us the Scottish government can't balance the budget. It's nonsense, how can anybody debate with somebody who believes that? You will never be convinced because you are not engaging with anything but your own thoughts. I'm not trying to peruade you merely challenging the statements you make. Why make them if you dont want to discuss them?

 

I told you to go Google it - has Scotland's deficit been increasing? Yes. Therefore it is overspending. Just go and look for yourself. This was dealt with pages ago, but you keep bringing it back up.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Spellczech

[theshed]

1 minute ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

...claims the absolute nobody on an anonymous football forum...

Sorry for thinking he’s not doing a great job 

[Unknown user]

14 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

...claims the absolute nobody on an anonymous football forum...

 

To be fair you could quote every single post on here saying that (except when Robbo's on)

[coconut doug]

17 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I told you to go Google it - has Scotland's deficit been increasing? Yes. Therefore it is overspending. Just go and look for yourself. This was dealt with pages ago, but you keep bringing it back up.

 

You did, but i don't need to. I don't believe that Gers accurately reflects anything of any importance never mind Scotland's budget or deficit. Others do and i accept that they have arguments to support their view.

 

 Nobody has ever told me more than once though that   "they haven't proven they can balance a budget even after raising Income tax.." They do this every year. They have to. Its not me that keeps bringing it up, its you. All i do is challenge the accuracy of your statement and try to provide you with the coreect info when you are wrong. The budget and the notional deficit are not the same thing. You cannot use the terms interchangably. The SNP/Green alliance balances its budget every year.  

[The Real Maroonblood]

34 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Yes, long may she reign

This.

[Spellczech]

6 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

You did, but i don't need to. I don't believe that Gers accurately reflects anything of any importance never mind Scotland's budget or deficit. Others do and i accept that they have arguments to support their view.

 

 Nobody has ever told me more than once though that   "they haven't proven they can balance a budget even after raising Income tax.." They do this every year. They have to. Its not me that keeps bringing it up, its you. All i do is challenge the accuracy of your statement and try to provide you with the coreect info when you are wrong. The budget and the notional deficit are not the same thing. You cannot use the terms interchangably. The SNP/Green alliance balances its budget every year.  

ok so shoot me for loose terminology. They overspend their budgets. That's worse. You've been like a dog with a bone over nothing, thus why I wasn't bothering acknowledging it...

[Cade]

The Scottish Government cannot borrow money.

It HAS TO balance the budget every single year based on the block grant and the tiny amount of tax powers it has.

 

The block grant is based on UK borrowing, so it's up tot eh UK to get its house in order to reduce borrowing which in turn will lead to a reduction in the block grant.

UK debt is nothing to do with Scotland.

[coconut doug]

5 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

ok so shoot me for loose terminology. They overspend their budgets. That's worse. You've been like a dog with a bone over nothing, thus why I wasn't bothering acknowledging it...

 

They do not overspend their budgets. They are not allowed to.

 

Nothing to do with loose terminology.  Your statement is the opposite of a fact.

[Spellczech]

3 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

They do not overspend their budgets. They are not allowed to.

 

Nothing to do with loose terminology.  Your statement is the opposite of a fact.

Ok fine whatever, I'll take your word for it that they are fiscally responsible and don't ever run a deficit. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/21/scotland-2018-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year

 

They had in 2019/20 underspend prior to Covid but I suspect Covid destroyed that.

[coconut doug]

54 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Ok fine whatever, I'll take your word for it that they are fiscally responsible and don't ever run a deficit. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/21/scotland-2018-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year

 

They had in 2019/20 underspend prior to Covid but I suspect Covid destroyed that.

 

The underspend you refer to relates to the Scottish budget. There is always a small deviation from the original budget but it cannot deviate very far bbecause the law prevents that from happening. Covid will not have much effect on that. This is a real thing.

 

The Guardian article relates to Gers figures which is a notional measure of Scotland's so-called deficit. It is a manufacture. It is not real and it most definItely is not the same as the Scottish budget. The SNP or any other Scottish governmnet cannot really influence these figures in any meaningful way. It is most definitely not a measure of the level of fiscal responsibility employed by any Scottish government.

 

They are two different things.

[manaliveits105]

[Maroon Sailor]

Still nae fans at the fitbaw

 

[Boris]

8 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Still nae fans at the fitbaw

 

Yes there are.

 

 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Swinney:

Binned as SNP leader

Binned as Finance Secretary

Now Binned as Education Secretary

A veritable colossus of politics!
 

Next role:

Pushing the broom at party HQ?

 

Still deputy FM and secretary for covid recovery.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57161751

 

Time to change your Ernies Wee Hammy, you've gone off rather prematurely...

[Maroon Sailor]

19 minutes ago, Boris said:

Yes there are.

 

 

 

Must have been fancy dress at Airdrie. Most of them have come dressed as seats

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

Still deputy FM and secretary for covid recovery.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57161751

 

Time to change your Ernies Wee Hammy, you've gone off rather prematurely...

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Must have been fancy dress at Airdrie. Most of them have come dressed as seats

Well, despite reduced attendance limits due to the pandemic, it's probably a good crowd for Airdrie!

[Ulysses]

10 hours ago, Spellczech said:

It is a devolved Government with limited powers. Government doesn't need to mean omnipotence. Foreign policy doesn't affect you or me directly. Thank goodness they don't yet have power to increase CT as they haven't proven they can balance a budget even after raising Income tax...

 

If you say so.  Odd, but you're entitled to your opinion.  Ireland's foreign policy has made me financially better off.

 

And, as you correctly point out, "devolved" and "limited powers".  Which means there's no prospect of properly testing them to the limit unless the country goes independent.  Which means you're setting a test which can't be passed.  Which means your "test" is invalid.

 

And, as you point out with your comment about CT, you never want Scotland to get those powers.  So stop making up reasons for your view.  You're just against independence, I get that.

 

And finally, on your point about balancing a budget, I'm only banging my head off a vicious circle, but here goes again.  As I said already, you don't vote for or against a constitutional arrangement on the basis of a single policy when that policy could be changed by another government following an election.  As I said already, it's another example of your confirmation bias picking something and using it as an excuse to justify your opinion.   And as I said already, if you were a supporter of independence you could pretend higher taxes and higher public spending were a good thing and justified independence, but that would be just as inaccurate.

 

As you said earlier, let's leave it there.  

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Secretary for Covid Recovery aka ‘Dogsbody’.

 

 

All I heard from the Tories, the Liberals and Labour during the election campaign was that recovery from covid was the most important issue.

Now you are saying it's not important, as it's a "dogsbody" role.

 

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, Spellczech said:

 

I'm not a Unionist. I AM the middle!!!