The rise and fall of The SNP.

[jack D and coke]

Must say Uly I’m enjoying you handing these chumps their erchies on a plate lately...

 

[Ulysses]

21 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Would an independent Scotland also leave NATO?  If so, why?

 

For some reason this seems to have slipped through the net.  Any thoughts?

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Must say Uly I’m enjoying you handing these chumps their erchies on a plate lately...

 

Particularly amusing given his ancestors' language

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Particularly amusing given his ancestors' language

 

I have a second language myself, y'know. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

16 minutes ago, Boris said:

All I heard from the Tories, the Liberals and Labour during the election campaign was that recovery from covid was the most important issue.

Now you are saying it's not important, as it's a "dogsbody" role.

 

Ah hink weehammy is on the pop early tonight...

[Konrad von Carstein]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

I have a second language myself, y'know. 

 

Havers?

[Spellczech]

13 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

If you say so.  Odd, but you're entitled to your opinion.  Ireland's foreign policy has made me financially better off.

 

And, as you correctly point out, "devolved" and "limited powers".  Which means there's no prospect of properly testing them to the limit unless the country goes independent.  Which means you're setting a test which can't be passed.  Which means your "test" is invalid.

 

And, as you point out with your comment about CT, you never want Scotland to get those powers.  So stop making up reasons for your view.  You're just against independence, I get that.

 

And finally, on your point about balancing a budget, I'm only banging my head off a vicious circle, but here goes again.  As I said already, you don't vote for or against a constitutional arrangement on the basis of a single policy when that policy could be changed by another government following an election.  As I said already, it's another example of your confirmation bias picking something and using it as an excuse to justify your opinion.   And as I said already, if you were a supporter of independence you could pretend higher taxes and higher public spending were a good thing and justified independence, but that would be just as inaccurate.

 

As you said earlier, let's leave it there.  

Who is them? The SNP or the limited powers?

 

? Did you not say yourself that Scotland is not the SNP? I don't want the SNP to get the power to change CT levels as it will only be increased under them - their left wing social policies dictate that. 

 

But I'm not against independence - I've simply never been convinced by the Nationalists that it is viable without several generations of acute economic pain - I said that right at the outset... That is very different from the words and opinions that you are all trying to foist upon me...

 

The bit about budgets was simply one comment. It was you guys who jumped upon it and kept banging away about it. I'm well aware that it is just one thing that I would require to be convinced about - and I've already said that and listed a bunch of others to boot but you guys are ignoring that...

 

Anyway I think we are all banging our heads against a brick wall here. Suffice to say that I'm one of the people you the Nationalists need to change the opinion of, and it hasn't happened yet...

 

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

For some reason this seems to have slipped through the net.  Any thoughts?

Not sure if they would leave, rather would they join/be allowed to join?

I suspect they would remain, or want to, but wouldn't be overly disappointed if we were refused entry (based on no nukes policy)

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Hunky Dory said:

Blame the SNP for the implications of a world wide pandemic. 
 

Yoon.

 

Dick

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Hunky Dory said:

😆

 

Sober up you auld soak.

 

You bumping your gums from Belgium Flunky ?

[Spellczech]

18 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Aye well you chuckle away buddy, but I have no strong feelings about the Union. Just like the EU, it could be so much better than it is. The UK has a terrible Govt at the moment, utterly incompetent, but these things are temporary. Breaking the Union just because of Boris would be foolish - if he is still PM in 10 years time then perhaps not... I thought leaving the EU was a mistake as the free trade and movement trumped the waste and graft. I'm not convinced the solution is to jump straight out of another Union which is far more vital for free trade and movement...

 

One thing that troubles me is how England is finally de-centralising from being totally London-centric but it is doing it in a very limited way - HS2 only going halfway up the country, most of the decentralisation being about regenerating Manchester and Birmingham ...

 

In Scotland by contrast, one thing I noticed during lockdown was how many more people commute to Edinburgh from Glasgow than go the other way. I guess it makes sense - higher wages in the East, lower house prices in the west...I would like to see the Scottish Government do something about the M8 and the Edin-Glw mainline sooner rather than later, or we'll be badly left behind.

[Paddy Crossan]

55 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Swinney:

Binned as SNP leader

Binned as Finance Secretary

Now Binned as Education Secretary

A veritable colossus of politics!
 

Next role:

Pushing the bro

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

Belgium was years ago, and in all that time I see you’ve remained a miserable and cantankerous old pest.

 

Ha ha ha

 

Get in 🤣

 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Maroon Sailor

[Ulysses]

16 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Who is them? The SNP or the limited powers?

 

? Did you not say yourself that Scotland is not the SNP? I don't want the SNP to get the power to change CT levels as it will only be increased under them - their left wing social policies dictate that. 

 

But I'm not against independence - I've simply never been convinced by the Nationalists that it is viable without several generations of acute economic pain - I said that right at the outset... That is very different from the words and opinions that you are all trying to foist upon me...

 

The bit about budgets was simply one comment. It was you guys who jumped upon it and kept banging away about it. I'm well aware that it is just one thing that I would require to be convinced about - and I've already said that and listed a bunch of others to boot but you guys are ignoring that...

 

Anyway I think we are all banging our heads against a brick wall here. Suffice to say that I'm one of the people you the Nationalists need to change the opinion of, and it hasn't happened yet...

 

 

The powers.  And the SNP has neither the right nor the responsibility to be in power. 

 

You are against independence.  Even the phrasing of your pretend sentence about being convinced is a dead giveaway.

 

The bit about budgets and everything else is complete and absolute guff.  It is utterly irrelevant.  Name any policy and I'll dispense with it using the same answer.  Name every policy and I'll dispense with each and every one of them using the same answer.  They do not matter a shiny shite to a constitutional debate.  You are the person who pretended that they did and who brought policies into the discussion.  I said - and I will say it again - you don't vote for or against a constitutional arrangement on the basis of a single policy when that policy could be changed by another government following an election.  As I said more than once already, it's another example of your confirmation bias picking something and using it as an excuse to justify your opinion.   And as I said already, if you were a supporter of independence you could pretend higher taxes and higher public spending were a good thing and justified independence, but that would be just as inaccurate. I said these things more than once, and you dodged them more than once, because you know I'm right and you know you have absolutely no answer.

 

Instead you made stuff up.  I have said nothing about budgets in this discussion with you, because I know they don't matter.  So stop pretending that I did.  Stop making stuff up.  It doesn't help your argument.

 

Nationalists are wasting their time with you, because you are not the middle.  Your comment about the things you'd require to be convinced about demonstrates that.  You're against independence, and you are looking for reasons to support your view.  That's fine - you be as unionist as you wish.  But stop pretending you're something when you're clearly not.

[Ulysses]

7 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Aye well you chuckle away buddy...

 

I'd be mad not to.  Maybe you're kidding yourself, but you're not fooling anyone else.

[Spellczech]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

The powers.  And the SNP has neither the right nor the responsibility to be in power. 

 

You are against independence.  Even the phrasing of your pretend sentence about being convinced is a dead giveaway.

 

The bit about budgets and everything else is complete and absolute guff.  It is utterly irrelevant.  Name any policy and I'll dispense with it using the same answer.  Name every policy and I'll dispense with each and every one of them using the same answer.  They do not matter a shiny shite to a constitutional debate.  You are the person who pretended that they did and who brought policies into the discussion.  I said - and I will say it again - you don't vote for or against a constitutional arrangement on the basis of a single policy when that policy could be changed by another government following an election.  As I said more than once already, it's another example of your confirmation bias picking something and using it as an excuse to justify your opinion.   And as I said already, if you were a supporter of independence you could pretend higher taxes and higher public spending were a good thing and justified independence, but that would be just as inaccurate. I said these things more than once, and you dodged them more than once, because you know I'm right and you know you have absolutely no answer.

 

Instead you made stuff up.  I have said nothing about budgets in this discussion with you, because I know they don't matter.  So stop pretending that I did.  Stop making stuff up.  It doesn't help your argument.

 

Nationalists are wasting their time with you, because you are not the middle.  Your comment about the things you'd require to be convinced about demonstrates that.  You're against independence, and you are looking for reasons to support your view.  That's fine - you be as unionist as you wish.  But stop pretending you're something when you're clearly not.

I'll try capitals... AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT INDEPENDENCE IS THE RIGHT THING FOR SCOTLAND.

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

I'll try capitals... AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT INDEPENDENCE IS THE RIGHT THING FOR SCOTLAND.

 

That's three times you've avoided the points I made about the excuses you're making to justify your personal anti-independence bias.  Typing in all capitals doesn't answer the points, it just makes you look shouty.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with your bias, by the way.  How many people on this thread don't have a bias one way or the other?  

[Spellczech]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

That's three times you've avoided the points I made about the excuses you're making to justify your personal anti-independence bias.  Typing in all capitals doesn't answer the points, it just makes you look shouty.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with your bias, by the way.  How many people on this thread don't have a bias one way or the other?  

I'm not avoiding them. I am simply not reaching them. Every post you write I read the first sentence and see that you are off misinterpreting and foisting your interpretation of my "opinions" upon me that I don't recognise or subscribe to. It's exasperating...Honestly I haven't even reached paragraph 2...

[Paddy Crossan]

11 minutes ago, Paddy Crossan said:

1 hour ago, weehammy said:

Swinney:

Binned as SNP leader

Binned as Finance Secretary

Now Binned as Education Secretary

A veritable colossus of politics!
 

Next role:

Pushing the bro

Expand  

John has achieved more than you no doubt, not a private school privileged boy:  I think he went to Forresters 

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

I'm not avoiding them. I am simply not reaching them. Every post you write I read the first sentence and see that you are off misinterpreting and foisting your interpretation of my "opinions" upon me that I don't recognise or subscribe to. It's exasperating...Honestly I haven't even reached paragraph 2...

 

They'll stay unanswered so.

 

Cheers. 

[Unknown user]

It would be good to be able to hold a government accountable for it's actions, to vote them out and change direction if we don't like what they're doing.

 

It's not that the SNP would just melt away post independence, it's that people like me will just stop voting for them as their relevance disappears.

 

Democratic deficit.

That's why we need change, Scotland deserves a seat at the table of nations and a government voted for by it's people.

[Maroon Sailor]

1 hour ago, weehammy said:

Swinney:

Binned as SNP leader

Binned as Finance Secretary

Now Binned as Education Secretary

A veritable colossus of politics!
 

Next role:

Pushing the broom at party HQ?

 

 

Secretary for Covid Recovery now ?

 

Talk about job creation !🤣

 

Don't think IndyRef2 will be on the table any time soon then 🤣

[The Mighty Thor]

15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

It would be good to be able to hold a government accountable for it's actions, to vote them out and change direction if we don't like what they're doing.

 

It's not that the SNP would just melt away post independence, it's that people like me will just stop voting for them as their relevance disappears.

This is why I raised the point about the branch offices of Labour and the Tories. 

Where do they sit in an independent Scotland with the strings still attached to London?

They lack engagement with the people of Scotland in holyrood as it is. 

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, weehammy said:

I’m quite happy with what i have achieved thank you. I went to Broughton.

 

[Boris]

58 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Secretary for Covid Recovery now ?

 

Talk about job creation !🤣

 

Don't think IndyRef2 will be on the table any time soon then 🤣

So no need for a covid recovery "task force", if you like?

 

Given, so we were told by the opposition parties during the election, that it's the most important thing, surely it makes sense for someone to lead it, to coordinate between the other departments?

 

No doubt you would criticise had such a role not been created!

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

So no need for a covid recovery "task force", if you like?

 

Given, so we were told by the opposition parties during the election, that it's the most important thing, surely it makes sense for someone to lead it, to coordinate between the other departments?

 

No doubt you would criticise had such a role not been created!

 

FS 🤣

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

So no need for a covid recovery "task force", if you like?

 

Given, so we were told by the opposition parties during the election, that it's the most important thing, surely it makes sense for someone to lead it, to coordinate between the other departments?

 

No doubt you would criticise had such a role not been created!

Fair comment.

[Gizmo]

 

 

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

Aye well you chuckle away buddy, but I have no strong feelings about the Union. Just like the EU, it could be so much better than it is. The UK has a terrible Govt at the moment, utterly incompetent, but these things are temporary. Breaking the Union just because of Boris would be foolish - if he is still PM in 10 years time then perhaps not... I thought leaving the EU was a mistake as the free trade and movement trumped the waste and graft. I'm not convinced the solution is to jump straight out of another Union which is far more vital for free trade and movement...

 

One thing that troubles me is how England is finally de-centralising from being totally London-centric but it is doing it in a very limited way - HS2 only going halfway up the country, most of the decentralisation being about regenerating Manchester and Birmingham ...

 

In Scotland by contrast, one thing I noticed during lockdown was how many more people commute to Edinburgh from Glasgow than go the other way. I guess it makes sense - higher wages in the East, lower house prices in the west...I would like to see the Scottish Government do something about the M8 and the Edin-Glw mainline sooner rather than later, or we'll be badly left behind.

1) Do you realistically see the Tories - with their plans for voting suppression and boundary gerrymandering - with Starmer an unpopular Labour leader - losing the next GE?

2) That "deficit" (racked up by Westminster on our behalf, incidentally and NOT by the Scottish Government who are legally obliged to balance the budget given to them) includes a massive spend on this stuff that has virtually ZERO benefit in Scotland

3) We could install a high-speed maglev line to connect Edinburgh & Glasgow airports, with a trip time of 12 minutes (making one mega airport essentially) - cost projected at £2 billion. Perhaps more easily affordable when independent, since we won't be funding HS2 or Trident, for example. 

[Mysterion]

15 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

3) We could install a high-speed maglev line to connect Edinburgh & Glasgow airports, with a trip time of 12 minutes (making one mega airport essentially) - cost projected at £2 billion. Perhaps more easily affordable when independent, since we won't be funding HS2 or Trident, for example. 

 

Any sort of rapid transport system would make a huge difference to the central belt but it's needed more between the central belt and Southern towns/cities (eg. Kilmarnock/Ayr/Dumfries for example). 

 

That said - You get the travel time between the 1st and 2nd cities down to 20mins would be good.

[Cairneyhill Jambo]

I take it the mods are anti-SNP as they still haven't updated the thread title to reflect the current position to "the rise and rise of the SNP"?

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

We could install a high-speed maglev line to connect Edinburgh & Glasgow airports, with a trip time of 12 minutes (making one mega airport essentially) - cost projected at £2 billion.

 

I once flew from Glasgow to Edinburgh, on board an Airbus A321.  Flying time was 12 minutes, IIRC.

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

Havers?

 

That too. 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

Not sure if they would leave, rather would they join/be allowed to join?

I suspect they would remain, or want to, but wouldn't be overly disappointed if we were refused entry (based on no nukes policy)

 

Ireland isn't a member of NATO, and most people here support that stance.  I'm not convinced it's the right stance for us to take, but it doesn't unduly bother me.  I'd imagine that some supporters of independence would want Scotland to be in NATO while others wouldn't.  I just wonder how it would affect voting intentions, or would people care very much one way or the other.  Likewise, should an independent Scotland be a member of the Commonwealth, and how would that affect voting intentions?

[manaliveits105]

9 hours ago, weehammy said:

Swinney:

Binned as SNP leader

Binned as Finance Secretary

Now Binned as Education Secretary

A veritable colossus of politics!
 

Next role:

Pushing the broom at party HQ?

 

Scottish Labour deputy leader Jackie Baillie said: “It is right that John Swinney has been moved on from his previous role.

“He has left a wake of damaging failures behind him that require urgent action to fix.

 

“Putting him in charge of our recovery is potentially gambling with the health and well-being of the nation.

“While we wish him well, he must demonstrate quickly that he is up to the job.”

 

Youve got to blame the clown who appointed him just back and fecked up already 

still I’m quite comfortable that any indyref2 is well in the long grass noo 

[Ron Burgundy]

9 hours ago, Boris said:

So no need for a covid recovery "task force", if you like?

 

Given, so we were told by the opposition parties during the election, that it's the most important thing, surely it makes sense for someone to lead it, to coordinate between the other departments?

 

No doubt you would criticise had such a role not been created!

It's maybe a valid role under the circumstances but to put a guy who's completely failed in his last job in it makes it look like jobs for the boys.

 

All, parties do it and it makes me so angry. I see it in my own work. People who are absolutely hopeless getting another role rather than emptied.

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

It's maybe a valid role under the circumstances but to put a guy who's completely failed in his last job in it makes it look like jobs for the boys.

 

All, parties do it and it makes me so angry. I see it in my own work. People who are absolutely hopeless getting another role rather than emptied.

Has he completely failed though? I don't know tbh. My lad is doing his N5's right now, he seems to be doing ok, his school is doing ok. But that's only my experience, but 35 yrs ago when it was me, there were still variations across-the-board. That was when o grades were being phased out for standard grades.

My own bias would rather Swinney over any Tory education minister.

The fact Swinney has been appointed suggests he is still held in high regard by the SNP. If he was so hopeless would such an important brief have been given to him? That doesn't really challenge your opinion, but perhaps explains the govt thinking.

 

 

[Maroon Sailor]

51 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

It's maybe a valid role under the circumstances but to put a guy who's completely failed in his last job in it makes it look like jobs for the boys.

 

All, parties do it and it makes me so angry. I see it in my own work. People who are absolutely hopeless getting another role rather than emptied.

 

This

 

He'll be earning 120k plus as well no doubt. Wonder what the teachers are thinking about that ?

 

Everything he touches turns to shit but he's Sturgeon's lapdog so hey John we know you're shit but have a nice little high earning pipe and slippers job I've created for you.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Maroon Sailor

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

Has he completely failed though?

 

Perception is everything - Swinney speaks in a calm fashion and in the current climate is taken as being a bit mealy mouthed when asked to explain things (even if the reasoning is fair). The education sector has been massively disrupted, people stressed and angry looking to blame someone for schools being closed or changes to exams. For 50% of the country he's the target, those who might be SNP leaning may be fed up too so he's on a hiding to nothing.

 

I don't think anyone would have come out of the last 2yrs unscathed. 

 

I generally had the impression Swinney had handled the finance minister role well and was put into education post in the hope his approach would help deliver improvements. Whoever is next needs a fair bit of luck.

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

He'll be earning 120k plus as well no doubt. Wonder what the teachers are thinking about that ?

 

Everything he touches turns to shit but he's Sturgeon's lapdog so hey John we know you're shit but have a nice little high earning pipe and slippers job I've created for you.

 

 

120k - not bad. Teachers will moan, it's what they do. Teachers have a tough job, there's been a lot of change but many just don't cope with it. 

 

On the last comment - not sure the role is a pipe and slipper job. Massive amount of work to be done.

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

120k - not bad. Teachers will moan, it's what they do. Teachers have a tough job, there's been a lot of change but many just don't cope with it. 

 

On the last comment - not sure the role is a pipe and slipper job. Massive amount of work to be done.

 

He's just the figurehead. Doubt he'll be getting stuck in to the muck and nettles.

 

If they had any sense they will park him in the corner out the way.

[John Findlay]

10 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Ireland isn't a member of NATO, and most people here support that stance.  I'm not convinced it's the right stance for us to take, but it doesn't unduly bother me.  I'd imagine that some supporters of independence would want Scotland to be in NATO while others wouldn't.  I just wonder how it would affect voting intentions, or would people care very much one way or the other.  Likewise, should an independent Scotland be a member of the Commonwealth, and how would that affect voting intentions?

The French are what as known as a non-contributory member of NATO as in the dont put any money in financially, but have signed up to aid NATO militarily if it is ever attacked.

Not as daft as as some people make them out to be the French.

[Gizmo]

12 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I once flew from Glasgow to Edinburgh, on board an Airbus A321.  Flying time was 12 minutes, IIRC.

It's a shame such short-hops aren't viable. Shows how fast a maglev train can be - we could literally import the system from China.
 

11 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Ireland isn't a member of NATO, and most people here support that stance.  I'm not convinced it's the right stance for us to take, but it doesn't unduly bother me.  I'd imagine that some supporters of independence would want Scotland to be in NATO while others wouldn't.  I just wonder how it would affect voting intentions, or would people care very much one way or the other.  Likewise, should an independent Scotland be a member of the Commonwealth, and how would that affect voting intentions?

I think Ireland are quite canny - they are surrounded by NATO countries so probably know its highly unlikely anyone is going to try anything. I think if Scotland were members of NATO but banned WMDs, that would be a bit of a cake and eat it situation. Perhaps from within they could at least push for non-proliferation treaties - something very much needed with the development of hypersonic missiles and spectre of AI-controlled weapons. 

[Swahili Jambo]

Excellent choices by wee Nic in OUR new Scottish Parliament. Will ring rounds everyone.  Good times.  And wee Kate Forbes just biding her time. 

[Cade]

Of the 30 NATO states, only three of them actually have Nukes.

The other 27 are signatories to the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

As, in fact, are the UK, France and USA.

 

So plenty of NATO have already banned nukes but remain part of NATO.

 

[JackLadd]

So Edinburgh Central's kilted Sir Les Patterson is back in with a bumper salary and ministerial car. Horrible this UK stuff innit. Money for nothing and your extramarital chicks for free. Freedumb!

[Swahili Jambo]

2 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

So Edinburgh Central's kilted Sir Les Patterson is back in with a bumper salary and ministerial car. Horrible this UK stuff innit. Money for nothing and your extramarital chicks for free. Freedumb!

I just feel your pain.  Freedumb!.  ****in grow up and accept the simple fact that the people of Scotland have voted again for an Independence party.  It wasn't even close.  What happens next, I don't know.  If wee Nic wants to take it to the ECJ, she will win.  Will the majority of Scots vote for Independence, probably not, but it will be close.  Deal with democracy.  Scotland is SNP at the moment, which means most probably most want Independence.  The demographics change, of course they do.  But, the stats show most youngsters coming up to or have just met voting age are very pro SNP.   

[manaliveits105]

16 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

So Edinburgh Central's kilted Sir Les Patterson is back in with a bumper salary and ministerial car. Horrible this UK stuff innit. Money for nothing and your extramarital chicks for free. Freedumb!

Important job Cabinet Minister in charge of the long grass 

[JackLadd]

2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Important job Cabinet Minister in charge of the long grass 

 

Good chance Sir Les Rab succumbs to a Porterhouse Blue from all the buckshee feasting and carousing. Fit him in a pine matchbox after an enema. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

43 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

So Edinburgh Central's kilted Sir Les Patterson is back in with a bumper salary and ministerial car. Horrible this UK stuff innit. Money for nothing and your extramarital chicks for free. Freedumb!

 

25 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Important job Cabinet Minister in charge of the long grass 

 

10 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Good chance Sir Les Rab succumbs to a Porterhouse Blue from all the buckshee feasting and carousing. Fit him in a pine matchbox after an enema. 

Fecking cringing for you two spangles, honestly grow up.

[Unknown user]

 the nick!