The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Beni]

20 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Latest poll has SNP predicted to get 58 out of 59 seats in a UK election. A long way of I admit but not really any sign of this fall yet

 

Even Zlatanable has given up on his nightly resurrections of the 'SNP fall' thread, the penny must finally be dropping.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, fancy a brew said:

 

Even Zlatanable has given up on his nightly resurrections of the 'SNP fall' thread, the penny must finally be dropping.

Nah he just took a different tack last night and started a new thread. It isn't there any more, it was just the same ill considered shite with a slightly different slant.

[manaliveits105]

4 hours ago, XB52 said:

Latest poll has SNP predicted to get 58 out of 59 seats in a UK election. A long way of I admit but not really any sign of this fall yet

What dates the referendum ?

[Konrad von Carstein]

15 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

What dates the referendum ?

The Julian or Gregorian calendar and the passage of time.

[Unknown user]

50 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

The Julian or Gregorian calendar and the passage of time.

Nice

[Ulysses]

On 15/05/2021 at 09:21, manaliveits105 said:

 

Man alive, you'd swear he was five. 

[Ulysses]

On 15/05/2021 at 09:19, Spellczech said:

Utter nonsense, I'm afraid. If they want us to trust them with independence then they have to prepare the country for independence under the considerable powers they have via devolution, not do as they currently do and make excuses for why they haven't...They have to balance their budgets. Instead they rack up debt trying to gain popular votes for independence. They have to improve education not make it worse! After all these are the generations who will have to live with our decisions.

 

You don't jump off a wall without looking at what you are going to land on first.

 

The SNP is not Scotland.  You know that.  Stop making crap up.  

 

Even if some political party makes a completely perfect job of running things in the current setup it doesn't help.  It can't help, for two reasons.

 

Firstly, it's not independence.  Therefore, running it well doesn't prove anything.  Secondly, the people making up crap reasons why independence shouldn't happen would simply boo and say it was being done badly, or else move the goalposts and say "but it's not a real government, running it well proves nothing".

 

"You don't jump off a wall"  Literally the politics of the ****ing playground. 

[manaliveits105]

5 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Man alive, you'd swear he was five. 

Beats the boring pontifications of non Scottish residents  that’s for sure 

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Beats the boring pontifications of non Scottish residents  that’s for sure 

Says the guy who loves non Scottish residents actually ruling the place.

[manaliveits105]

Will of the British people and we get to send Fatty Blackford 

[AlimOzturk]

3 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Will of the British people and we get to send Fatty Blackford 

 

Fwiw fat shaming these days isn’t exactly acceptable. Can be considered a hate crime.   

 

[Spellczech]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

The SNP is not Scotland.  You know that.  Stop making crap up.  

 

Even if some political party makes a completely perfect job of running things in the current setup it doesn't help.  It can't help, for two reasons.

 

Firstly, it's not independence.  Therefore, running it well doesn't prove anything.  Secondly, the people making up crap reasons why independence shouldn't happen would simply boo and say it was being done badly, or else move the goalposts and say "but it's not a real government, running it well proves nothing".

 

"You don't jump off a wall"  Literally the politics of the ****ing playground. 

So we are back to what I said originally. The SNP want us to take a leap of faith...That prospect can only be attractive for reckless people with nothing to lose. Anyone with a job and property is better to stick with the status quo.

[Maroon Sailor]

5 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

So we are back to what I said originally. The SNP want us to take a leap of faith...That prospect can only be attractive for reckless people with nothing to lose. Anyone with a job and property is better to stick with the status quo.

 

And a UK pension

[Konrad von Carstein]

11 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

So we are back to what I said originally. The SNP want us to take a leap of faith...That prospect can only be attractive for reckless people with nothing to lose. Anyone with a job and property is better to stick with the status quo.

All conjecture and opinion,  I have a job and property and I really want to ditch the status quo.

6 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

And a UK pension

 

 Are you suggesting that if I've paid my tax and NIC for 30+ years that in the event of independence the Westminster government will slam the shutters down on my access to my pension (even if it is a pittance)?

[Jeffros Furios]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Man alive, you'd swear he was five. 

😀

[Spellczech]

39 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

And a UK pension

Basically any assets...or liabilities. If you have a signficant mortgage then you would not want to vote for independence. This is probably why most of their supporters seen to be teenagers and gray hairs.

[Spellczech]

31 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

All conjecture and opinion,  I have a job and property and I really want to ditch the status quo.

 

 Are you suggesting that if I've paid my tax and NIC for 30+ years that in the event of independence the Westminster government will slam the shutters down on my access to my pension (even if it is a pittance)?

Conjecture and opinion? I've just been denied the right to form an opinion because, apparently, the Scottish Govt don't run the country at the moment...

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Conjecture and opinion? I've just been denied the right to form an opinion because, apparently, the Scottish Govt don't run the country at the moment...

Not what I said at all, you posted the bit about job and property as fact,  it isnt...of course you may be correct,  I chose to think differently.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Konrad von Carstein

[Spellczech]

Just now, Konrad von Carstein said:

Not what I said at all, you posted the bit about job and property as fact,  it isnt.

No it is what Ulysses said

 

We really going to go down the old dead end of claiming that someone "posts as fact"? If you chose to read it as me posting my conclusion as a fact then it says more about your cognitive and interpretative skills - perhaps why you would vote recklessly (IMO)? 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Spellczech

[Maroon Sailor]

41 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Are you suggesting that if I've paid my tax and NIC for 30+ years that in the event of independence the Westminster government will slam the shutters down on my access to my pension (even if it is a pittance)?

 

Who knows ?

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Who knows ?

 

Pension benefits of a newly independent Scotland's population would surely be treated in a similar manner as when a company is bought over by another. Contributions to the UK pension aren't a gift to the government for them to simply take it and deny you the pension you paid for.

[Maroon Sailor]

5 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

Pension benefits of a newly independent Scotland's population would surely be treated in a similar manner as when a company is bought over by another. Contributions to the UK pension aren't a gift to the government for them to simply take it and deny you the pension you paid for.

 

What's going to happen to a UK pension in an iScotland ?

[Guest]

Are state pensions not funded by the government of the day, unlike a private pension where you are basically saving up

 

If so, IScotland would need enough people working and contributing to the system to fund state pensions

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Candy said:

Are state pensions not funded by the government of the day, unlike a private pension where you are basically saving up

 

If so, IScotland would need enough people working and contributing to the system to fund state pensions

Like every other country in the world?

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

What's going to happen to a UK pension in an iScotland ?

What do you mean? Do people stop getting their pension if they move to Spain?

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Smithee said:

What do you mean? Do people stop getting their pension if they move to Spain?

 

No idea do they ?

 

Are they still British citizens ?

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

What's going to happen to a UK pension in an iScotland ?

 

Obviously I  dont know the answer to that, however, I do not believe my contributions would simply be salted away, stolen if you will.

 

I would assume that they would be subject to discussions on how to equitably split Scottish citizens pension rights from the UK.

 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

No idea do they ?

 

Are they still British citizens ?

Of course they do, why wouldn't they? They're entitled to it from years of national insurance payments, same as you or I.

I suppose it would be treated like the transfer of pension between any other countries but don't the details obviously depend on the leaving agreement negotiated with Westminster?

We're entitled to those pensions, we've been paying into them our whole working lives.

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

What's going to happen to a UK pension in an iScotland ?

 

Last time the UK government guaranteed that pensions would be protected.

 

 

[Maroon Sailor]

4 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

Last time the UK government guaranteed that pensions would be protected.

 

 

 

Hope that's the case 👍

[The Mighty Thor]

are we rolling through the list from Cameron & Brown's project fear play book?

 

Pensions.

The pound.

 

Next it'll be Sainsbury's and ASDA shutting their shops oh and we've not had a 'but how many navy boats will we havethen eh?' for a while. 

 

 

[Cade]

"The banks will leave"

 

Guess what? They're already left for EU cities.

Trillions of pounds of assets have been moved to the EU and the City of London has lost untold billions in derivatives over the last year.

The banks are gone already.

[Mysterion]

50 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Hope that's the case 👍

 

So here's the thing - you rightly ask about pensions. Why ? The answer is because one side of the argument want people to be petrified about losing everything. 

 

The other side (note i'm trying to be balanced here) offer everything but that's just not realistic. The answer is always somewhere in the middle. 

 

Brexit as an example is pretty bad, it's also not good but it's 100% not armageddon (or the ultimate opportunity).

 

This is where i am on Scexit - the country will not suddenly have streets of gold but it will also not suddenly become poor. 

 

We'll have legacy pensions/social security funding after decades of contributions in NI. 

[Mysterion]

8 minutes ago, Cade said:

"The banks will leave"

 

The banks are gone already.

 

I have posted this before - the banks in Scotland are not just money. 

There is a massive fin-tech sector and it will not walk away overnight. 

 

You have multiple American banks in the Central Belt and right now Barclays are building a huge 3 building campus on the Clyde. 

 

When people stop thinking about banks as money they'll start to realise the opportunities and current status is so much more. 

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, Candy said:

Are state pensions not funded by the government of the day, unlike a private pension where you are basically saving up

 

If so, IScotland would need enough people working and contributing to the system to fund state pensions

 

You seem to be suggesting that currently Scotland is not pulling its weight regarding state pensions because we don't have enough people working.

 

Don't you understand that Scotland currently subsidises pension rates in the RUK?

[scott herbertson]

1 hour ago, Mysterion said:

 

So here's the thing - you rightly ask about pensions. Why ? The answer is because one side of the argument want people to be petrified about losing everything. 

 

The other side (note i'm trying to be balanced here) offer everything but that's just not realistic. The answer is always somewhere in the middle. 

 

Brexit as an example is pretty bad, it's also not good but it's 100% not armageddon (or the ultimate opportunity).

 

This is where i am on Scexit - the country will not suddenly have streets of gold but it will also not suddenly become poor. 

 

We'll have legacy pensions/social security funding after decades of contributions in NI. 

 

 

well put

 

many examples of small countries in Europe who have decent economies.

 

Too much of the argument around opposition to independence is based on financial scare stories. Would be more interesting to hear of the benefits of Union (there are some) than fantasy scare stories like your going to lose your pension or we'll be bombed by Russia

[doctor jambo]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

are we rolling through the list from Cameron & Brown's project fear play book?

 

Pensions.

The pound.

 

Next it'll be Sainsbury's and ASDA shutting their shops oh and we've not had a 'but how many navy boats will we havethen eh?' for a while. 

 

 

My issue with the SNP is that they are not being held to account by the electorate.

They say “independence” and everyone ignores every other issue and votes for them.

IMHO they are stalling independence furiously, as the fact it is still sitting there means they have a free pass until they get Indy , so it is actually against their interests .

even if a second ref is a “no” the cycle perpetuates.

Maybe Boris should accede to ref 2, but if it’s a no again the SNP agree to disband.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, doctor jambo said:

My issue with the SNP is that they are not being held to account by the electorate.

They say “independence” and everyone ignores every other issue and votes for them.

IMHO they are stalling independence furiously, as the fact it is still sitting there means they have a free pass until they get Indy , so it is actually against their interests .

even if a second ref is a “no” the cycle perpetuates.

Maybe Boris should accede to ref 2, but if it’s a no again the SNP agree to disband.

Vote for independence to get rid of the SNP

[scott herbertson]

2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

My issue with the SNP is that they are not being held to account by the electorate.

They say “independence” and everyone ignores every other issue and votes for them.

IMHO they are stalling independence furiously, as the fact it is still sitting there means they have a free pass until they get Indy , so it is actually against their interests .

even if a second ref is a “no” the cycle perpetuates.

Maybe Boris should accede to ref 2, but if it’s a no again the SNP agree to disband.

 

 

It is indeed disappointing that particularly the Tories and Labour to a lesser extent do not seem to be able to focus on anything other than anti-independence. It's hardly the SNPs fault if their record in government and their manifesto commitments aren't challenged better, rather a failing of opposition.

 

There seems to be a developing conspiracy theory that the SNP don't want independence - there's no evidence at all for that, and no sense in it as far as I can see - I'd love someone to explain it to me with some evidence.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

 

You seem to be suggesting that currently Scotland is not pulling its weight regarding state pensions because we don't have enough people working.

 

Don't you understand that Scotland currently subsidises pension rates in the RUK?

I wasn't suugesting that at all

[maroonlegions]

I do think that the real threat to the UK is   the "Etonian variant.."..   Nasty and sneaky..

[Cade]

If the SNP was making such an awful mess of running the country, WHY are the opposition parties all campaigning on a "save the union" ticket rather than attacking the poor record of the SNP in office?

 

Surely someone else would win an election if things were that bad.

 

Why are the opposition not putting forward any other policies?

 

Why is nothing positive being offered?

 

Hmmmm?

[maroonlegions]

Just now, Cade said:

If the SNP was making such an awful mess of running the country, WHY are the opposition parties all campaigning on a "save the union" ticket rather than attacking the poor record of the SNP in office?

 

Surely someone else would win an election if things were that bad.

 

Why are the opposition not putting forward any other policies?

 

Why is nothing positive being offered?

 

Hmmmm?

Cause they got none??

 

They are shiting it, big time, they know full well that scaremongering aint working..  

[Konrad von Carstein]

16 minutes ago, Candy said:

I wasn't suugesting that at all

What were you suggesting?

[Mysterion]

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

If the SNP was making such an awful mess of running the country, WHY are the opposition parties all campaigning on a "save the union" ticket rather than attacking the poor record of the SNP in office?

 

 

To be honest - the idea that the country is awful is perpetrated and spread by those of a Tory persuasion. They've gone full tilt to suggest that we're seconds away from the collapse of society. It's worked well - lets be honest about that. They activate their key supporters through goons like Murdo Fraser.

 

The reason it's worked well is the country has stagnated a bit and the SNP has been under the cosh for a long time now. It's had an impact on perception of how the SNP have performed - lets be honest again, it's not been great at times and the Salmond affair did a lot of damage.

 

Going back to the "Save the Union" stuff - It's effective - that's why they do it. They can't cut through on a discussion about improving Scotland because a lot of ideas would start to look similar/align to indie parties and they have to be seen as different. 

 

At this point we realise that when Labour in Scotland become open to Indie (Kezia a prime example of being open minded to it albeit probably because of her burd) then we'll move to an endgame. 

 

Final thought - Always find it funny that the Liberal Dems are a party in name only and don't appear keen on aligning to the liberal democratic outlook of a lot of Scotland.

[Auld Reekin']

26 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

My issue with the SNP is that they are not being held to account by the electorate.

They say “independence” and everyone ignores every other issue and votes for them.

IMHO they are stalling independence furiously, as the fact it is still sitting there means they have a free pass until they get Indy , so it is actually against their interests .

even if a second ref is a “no” the cycle perpetuates.

Maybe Boris should accede to ref 2, but if it’s a no again the SNP agree to disband.

 

 

A more realistic option - and one that I think might well be put-forward at some stage, if not necessarily accepted by all parties concerned or implemented - would be a "no subsequent Indy-Ref within a 20-year period" clause.

 

I actually think you've lots of "issues" with the SNP, aside from the one you've mentioned. I also think you're mistaken about that one, but a big advantage that the SNP have at the moment is that all of the alternatives to them are demonstrably worse, corrupt, untrustworthy, opportunistic, and / or incompetent. There's also the fact that the "sticking with the status-quo" option that did exist in 2014 no longer does so due to Brexit. For many who were not natural supporters of independence, that was and is the final straw.

[Mysterion]

Just now, Auld Reekin' said:

 

"no subsequent Indy-Ref within a 20-year period" clause.

If the SNP accepted this then they would be finished. 

 

I don't have a problem with a 10yr indy ref cycle. The last one highlighted that the Unionist parties wanted Scotland to remain part of the UK and formed a discussion. There was an offer on the table with the infamous Vow and more Scots opted to take it. 

 

Those who voted for The Vow were vastly let down by what came next.

 

If they want to get the finger out and start delivering further devolved government then it would be a good start to take future indy ref votes off the table. Making referendum conditional isn't democratic and just shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Auld Reekin']

12 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

If the SNP accepted this then they would be finished. 

 

I don't have a problem with a 10yr indy ref cycle. The last one highlighted that the Unionist parties wanted Scotland to remain part of the UK and formed a discussion. There was an offer on the table with the infamous Vow and more Scots opted to take it. 

 

Those who voted for The Vow were vastly let down by what came next.

 

If they want to get the finger out and start delivering further devolved government then it would be a good start to take future indy ref votes off the table. Making referendum conditional isn't democratic and just shouldn't be allowed.

 

 

Yep, you're probably right, but would you really expect Johnson to put something as sensible and reasonable as that forward? As I'd said, I don't think a 20-year option would necessarily be acceptable to all sides and I, personally, would not be happy with this being agreed to by the SNP even if it was proposed. (It's still more realistic than any insistence that the SNP "disband" however!  )

 

Agree 100% with your views on "The Vow"...   

 

(And, further to that, ain't it funny that the unionists bang-on ad-nauseum about "once in a generation..." but conveniently forget about anything and everything that was stated in "The Vow"? The fact is that neither were included in any of the official documentation covering the 2014 referendum, nor signed-off as part of this, meaning that both were merely employed as campaign material. Odd, as I say...    )

Edited May 17, 2021 by Auld Reekin'

[manaliveits105]

Assume as what timespans should be put on future indyrefs (the actual cheek of it !) is being discussed that nats are finally accepting that they would without doubt lose any indyref2 if ever granted  - well done for coming to terms with it  its for the best - time to move on.

[Mysterion]

1 minute ago, manaliveits105 said:

Assume as what timespans should be put on future indyrefs (the actual cheek of it !) is being discussed that nats are finally accepting that they would without doubt lose any indyref2 if ever granted  - well done for coming to terms with it  its for the best - time to move on.

 

You can also equally state it's an acceptance by Unionists parties that it's now so close they would want to push back any potential follow up referendum due to the fear they will lose if they don't implement their bribes for The Vow 2.