The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Enzo Chiefo]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Never mind policies, beliefs, education, ability to remain uncowed, determination to help those without.

 

How does she look?

 

It's her policies, beliefs and education that I'm describing as not a "good look"

[Unknown user]

Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

It's her policies, beliefs and education that I'm describing as not a "good look"

Oh right, that'll be why you said "Rough as old boots" then

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Oh right, that'll be why you said "Rough as old boots" then

That too. More suited to Holyrood than WM, I reckon. 

[Unknown user]

23 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

That too. More suited to Holyrood than WM, I reckon. 

She's a quality politician, 1st class hons in politics and public policy, knows her stuff, is true to her convictions and stands her ground without fear, I have a lot of respect for her.

 

"Rough as old boots" is shit patter

[BudgeUp]

7 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

It's her policies, beliefs and education that I'm describing as not a "good look"

I fall firmly within the yes camp and I totally agree with you on this one.

[Unknown user]

14 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

I fall firmly within the yes camp and I totally agree with you on this one.

Why would you have a problem with a first class honours degree in politics?

 

[BudgeUp]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Why would you have a problem with a first class honours degree in politics?

 

To use an analogy: It's not the product, it's the marketing and packaging.

[XB52]

12 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Why?  We keep getting told by nationalists that once independence is attained they'll all step away from politics. 

Nobody has ever said that. Sensible people have said that the snp would go and proper Scottish labour/tory/Liberal parties would form. The current snp politicians would join these parties. Of course this wouldn't happen overnight

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

To use an analogy: It's not the product, it's the marketing and packaging.

The guy said it's her policies, beliefs and education, and you agreed with him.

 

I'm glad she bams people up, unlike many politicians she means what she says. Politics is more about style than substance for many, but give me someone with fire, passion and willingness to fight.

 

If I ever had to turn to an MP for help if be delighted to find out it was her.

[BudgeUp]

17 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The guy said it's her policies, beliefs and education, and you agreed with him.

Actually I was agreeing with the overriding principle that she comes across as a clown, regardless of her education, policies and beliefs. Its more to do with the persona she portrays. 

 

Appeals to people that will already vote SNP/feel disenfranchised as a breath of fresh air but hasn't got the reach that more reserved politicians have due to her message being diluted by the delivery.

 

You want her to have a more prominent role in the SNP, whereas I'm of the opinion Robertson is heir apparent (assuming there is a need for an heir).

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

Actually I was agreeing with the overriding principle that she comes across as a clown, regardless of her education, policies and beliefs. Its more to do with the persona she portrays. 

 

Appeals to people that will already vote SNP/feel disenfranchised as a breath of fresh air but hasn't got the reach that more reserved politicians have due to her message being diluted by the delivery.

 

You want her to have a more prominent role in the SNP, whereas I'm of the opinion Robertson is heir apparent (assuming there is a need for an heir).

You're right, she doesn't have the reach more reserved politicians have, she has a reach that none of them can ever have. She speaks to and for people and personalities that no one else is trying to speak to or for.

 

We need the Mhairi Blacks of the world speaking up for the wee man.

[BudgeUp]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

she has a reach that none of them can ever have. 

Historically that doesn't transfer to votes. Even now I'm unsure it will as it's turned into a very binary vote choice that is drawing voters out as evidenced by the turnout last week.

 

Que sera, its marmite and to be honest it's now two yes voters arguing over the merits of players which I'm assuming is an intended consequence so let's leave it there. 👍🏻

[DETTY29]

Missed a page or so.

 

We moved on to Mhairi Black.

 

I thought it was Kate Forbes this page was still discussing.

 

Completely differing personalities but very similar language having been used about them.

Edited May 15, 2021 by DETTY29

[Spellczech]

11 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I don't care how good or bad the SNP are.  Your point was that pursuing positive welfare policies and a sovereign wealth fund was "having your cake and eating it", and was impossible.  It's possible, and Norway shows that.  Scotland is capable of doing the same.  There is no golden rule that requires the SNP (or any other particular party) to be in power for that to happen.

 

The SNP is not Scotland, despite the delusional commentary of pro-union posters to suggest that it is.  It's a political party, same as any other party, and it has no monopoly of wisdom.  I hate to get pedantic at this point, but I have to.  You just said:

 

"They have to prove themselves capable in Govt before asking us to take a leap into the unknown. "

 

Do you have any idea how irrational that is?  Apologies, and genuinely no offence meant, but what you are proposing is both wrong-headed and impossible - for two reasons.  First, the idea that any country or state can prove itself capable of government before it has the independent authority to govern is simply irrational.  By definition, no place can prove it is capable of governing itself independently until it is independent.  No place can govern itself well or badly AT ALL until it is independent.  Anything else is a constitutional, institutional, legal and administrative impossibility.  Secondly, the SNP has neither the right nor the duty to govern, nor to govern well, in Scotland.  That is not a matter for the SNP or some political gurus to decide; it is a matter for the voters.  To suggest that the SNP is either obliged or entitled to run Scotland and prove that this can be done well is to assume that Scotland should be a one-party state.  You don't really think that - but it's convenient to say it because you think it gives you a killer argument against Scottish independence.  Well it doesn't.

Utter nonsense, I'm afraid. If they want us to trust them with independence then they have to prepare the country for independence under the considerable powers they have via devolution, not do as they currently do and make excuses for why they haven't...They have to balance their budgets. Instead they rack up debt trying to gain popular votes for independence. They have to improve education not make it worse! After all these are the generations who will have to live with our decisions.

 

You don't jump off a wall without looking at what you are going to land on first.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Spellczech

[manaliveits105]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

Utter nonsense, I'm afraid. If they want us to trust them with independence then they have to prepare the country for independence under the considerable powers they have via devolution, not do as they currently do and make excuses for why they haven't...They have to balance their budgets. Instead they rack up debt trying to gain popular votes for independence. They have to improve education not make it worse! After all these are the generations who will have to live with our decisions.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Utter nonsense, I'm afraid. If they want us to trust them with independence then they have to prepare the country for independence under the considerable powers they have via devolution, not do as they currently do and make excuses for why they haven't...They have to balance their budgets. Instead they rack up debt trying to gain popular votes for independence. They have to improve education not make it worse! After all these are the generations who will have to live with our decisions.

That's far too sensible.

 

Their strategy has been creating an "us and them" culture between Scotland and England.  It reminds me of the old firm rivalry. Its become so intense that dislike of the other side and one-upmanship reigns over almost everything  else.

 

It's football scarf politics.

 

 

[Maroon Sailor]

5 minutes ago, Candy said:

That's far too sensible.

 

Their strategy has been creating an "us and them" culture between Scotland and England.  It reminds me of the old firm rivalry. Its become so intense that dislike of the other side and one-upmanship reigns over almost everything  else.

 

It's football scarf politics.

 

 

 

It's their raison d'etre 

 

Their way to Independence is to moan about the Tories long and hard enough rather than tell us what an iScotland will look like.

 

Sturgeon is an angry, moaning Minnie who seems to prefer protesting than actually leading. Maybe because she is good at one and utterly shit at the other.

[Spellczech]

45 minutes ago, Candy said:

That's far too sensible.

 

Their strategy has been creating an "us and them" culture between Scotland and England.  It reminds me of the old firm rivalry. Its become so intense that dislike of the other side and one-upmanship reigns over almost everything  else.

 

It's football scarf politics.

 

 

Sadly true. This time last year Sturgeon was doing an excellent job of handling Covid and Boris was floundering. Now Boris is still floundering, but all Sturgeon seems to do is petty little one-upmanship differences. Meanwhile the Scottish roll-out of vaccine appears to be behind the English one - I'm 46, and I finally got my first jab invite yesterday for the 19th over in Gorebridge (10 miles away from me yet the EICC is 3 miles away and whatever they are doing at the carpark at Napier Criaglockhart campus is 1/4mile away). In England they are doing teenagers...Likewise travel rules - Boris has let the Indian strains in, but Sturgeon is continuing with this nonsensical hotel quarantine which can only be to dissuade travel into the country and chuck a bit of trade to the hotel industry as it serves no other useful purpose, particularly for residents.

 

Today she's been trumpeting her 4% nurses payrise.  Sturgeon seems to want to annoy the English so much that English calls for Scottish independence become unignorable and this is troubling...

[Unknown user]

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

Utter nonsense, I'm afraid. If they want us to trust them with independence then they have to prepare the country for independence under the considerable powers they have via devolution, not do as they currently do and make excuses for why they haven't...They have to balance their budgets. Instead they rack up debt trying to gain popular votes for independence. They have to improve education not make it worse! After all these are the generations who will have to live with our decisions.

 

You don't jump off a wall without looking at what you are going to land on first.

 

Which budgets are not balanced?

 

Where is your evidence that education is worse?

[Spellczech]

17 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Which budgets are not balanced?

 

Where is your evidence that education is worse?

Google is your friend. Starter for 10: "SNP budget deficit"

[coconut doug]

1 hour ago, Candy said:

That's far too sensible.

 

Their strategy has been creating an "us and them" culture between Scotland and England.  It reminds me of the old firm rivalry. Its become so intense that dislike of the other side and one-upmanship reigns over almost everything  else.

 

It's football scarf politics.

 

 

 

Can you identify where Indy politicians are creating an us and them culture?

 

Why would anybody want to replicate an old firm rivalry when it is that social disfuncionality that has held this country back so much. Don't you get a little tired of seeing union flags on products that are not even of UK origin or listening to jingoistic nonsense spoken by a politician with a row of union flags behind them?

 

Do you think pointing out that England's covid death rate is 50% higher than that of Scotland is one-upmanship? Some people seem to think i mention it because i am pleased that so many English people have died. What sort of mindset arrives at that conclusion?

 

  There has always been rivalry between Scotland and England but any future indy Scotland should exist in its own right for its own reasons and to support its own values. We are not in this to be better than England, in most areas we already are. No indy supporter wants our future to be evaluated through the prism of Tory values any more  than they relish the very real prospect of Tory governments for the rest of their lives. This is not an us and them culture for the sake of it. We don't like the Tories and the way they do things and we are entitled to say so and do something about it.

 

 

 

[Norm]

No chance I'd want Black in charge. I like my diplomatic leaders to be diplomatic. Black strikes me as being a wee bit too "Mon then" and confrontational to be a leader of a ruling party. 

[coconut doug]

3 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Google is your friend. Starter for 10: "SNP budget deficit"

 

I think you are referring to Gers figures. What has that got to do with the SNP balancing their budgets?

[jambos are go!]

Surprised about all these posts n Black . I like to think I take a keen interest in politics and I would describe her as the invisible woman.

[The Mighty Thor]

So 3 SNP women absolutely trigger the bangers on here?

 

[Guest]

Can you identify where Indy politicians are creating an us and them culture?

 

Two examples off the top of my head

 

This week we've seen the Scottish Govt attack the home office for enforcing the rule of law.

 

Last year Ian Blackford had to delete and apologise for an anti English tweet

 

Why would anybody want to replicate an old firm rivalry when it is that social disfuncionality that has held this country back so much.

 

Because its successful in creating support.  

 

Don't you get a little tired of seeing union flags on products that are not even of UK origin or listening to jingoistic nonsense spoken by a politician with a row of union flags behind them?

 

Not something I pay any attention to. I'd say its small minded to be concerned with such matters

 

Do you think pointing out that England's covid death rate is 50% higher than that of Scotland is one-upmanship? Some people seem to think i mention it because i am pleased that so many English people have died. What sort of mindset arrives at that conclusion?

 

I generally skim past your posts so I don't know what you've said previously

 

 any future indy Scotland should exist in its own right for its own reasons and to support its own values.

 

That's a fair enough point - as soon as they stop moaning about England/Westminster/Toaries/Boris/JRM, they'll be on the way 

 

We are not in this to be better than England, in most areas we already are. No indy supporter wants our future to be evaluated through the prism of Tory values any more  than they relish the very real prospect of Tory governments for the rest of their lives. This is not an us and them culture for the sake of it. We don't like the Tories and the way they do things and we are entitled to say so and do something about it.

 

That's your view and i respect your right to hold it. 

[Guest]

It seems this guy thinks there is an "us and them" culture in Scotland

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Candy
profanity in link to tweet

[Boris]

7 minutes ago, Candy said:

It seems this guy thinks there is an "us and them" culture in Scotland

 

 

 

 

 

 

No context to his claim though. Is it because Scotland has the temerity to seek independence? Is it because of different covid restrictions? 

 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

No context to his claim though. Is it because Scotland has the temerity to seek independence? Is it because of different covid restrictions? 

 

 

"Atmosphere" 

 

[jack D and coke]

Sorry but who is George Dunnett.
He hasn’t been but he knows there’s an “atmosphere”?

Who is this guy?

[Unknown user]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Sorry but who is George Dunnett.
He hasn’t been but he knows there’s an “atmosphere”?

Who is this guy?

I was away to ask this as well - is he guessing at the atmosphere or is this some ESP going on?

[Guest]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Sorry but who is George Dunnett.
He hasn’t been but he knows there’s an “atmosphere”?

Who is this guy?

Just a random would be tourist as far as I know  

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Candy said:

Just a random would be tourist as far as I know  

Cool, so there an English guy who hasn't been but reckons there's an atmosphere.

It's not very scientific mate.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Cool, so there an English guy who hasn't been but reckons there's an atmosphere.

It's not very scientific mate.

Never claimed it was. 

 

Its about perception though.  Do other would be tourists avoid going to Scotland because the perceive they will not be welcome?

[Guest]

Nicola's words say we're open and welcoming to all, but her tone is somewhat different

 

 

[jack D and coke]

5 minutes ago, Candy said:

Just a random would be tourist as far as I know  

Aye I can imagine the accounts who retweet this kind of nonsense. Have a wee click on them. Spitfires, Churchill, Israel, anti Celtic, anti scottish, and Raaaannnngggeerrss i can almost guarantee it. 

 

[Guest]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Aye I can imagine the accounts who retweet this kind of nonsense. Have a wee click on them. Spitfires, Churchill, Israel, anti Celtic, anti scottish, and Raaaannnngggeerrss i can almost guarantee it. 

 

Indeed

 

Football scarf politics

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Candy said:

Nicola's words say we're open and welcoming to all, but her tone is somewhat different

 

 

A force for good? 
 

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Candy said:

Never claimed it was. 

 

Its about perception though.  Do other would be tourists avoid going to Scotland because the perceive they will not be welcome?

These types will always perceive what they want tbh. Both sides have their lunatic fringe.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

So 3 SNP women absolutely trigger the bangers on here?

 

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, Candy said:

Never claimed it was. 

 

Its about perception though.  Do other would be tourists avoid going to Scotland because the perceive they will not be welcome?

You're claiming the creation of Us and Them.

 

You've quoted one prick off Twitter, twice.

 

It's not very convincing.

[manaliveits105]

12 minutes ago, Candy said:

Nicola's words say we're open and welcoming to all, but her tone is somewhat different

 

 

She is an absolute idiot like most of her cult

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, weehammy said:

A degree in politics is no better indication of competence in representing constituents or in running a government department than a degree in hairdressing or biology or mathematics or anything else would be.

 

It's pretty relevant when we're specifically talking about her education though.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

You're claiming the creation of Us and Them.

 

You've quoted one prick off Twitter, twice.

 

It's not very convincing.

My original post was from a Scottish perspective, not English, but i happened across that on twitter and thought it was interesting as I hadn't considered it from an English perspective.  

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Candy said:

My original post was from a Scottish perspective, not English, but i happened across that on twitter and thought it was interesting as I hadn't considered it from an English perspective.  

 

I feel like Scottish tourism will be ok in the short to medium term at least.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, weehammy said:

With respect, not sure of your point. I certainly agree that having a degree is worthwhile but there are/have been plenty of very intellectually able non-graduates.

John Major and Jim Callaghan are fairly recent non-graduate PMs. Whatever you thought of them I think it’s good that someone without a degree achieved that level. Not sure it would happen now that so many people go to uni.

 

My point is that the guy agreed that her education was part of the problem. I was asking what part of a 1st class Hons in politics is a problem, something which about 15% of graduates were able to obtain then.

 

Away from that my more general point is that she has a greater understanding of the picture educationally than the majority of politicians and will learn a lot more with time and experience.

There's a whole bunch of amateurs running things at Westminster, clueless toffs (Johnson has a second in classics for example) while a working class Scottish lassie who knows the struggles faced by many is educated, motivated and determined.

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, Candy said:

Can you identify where Indy politicians are creating an us and them culture?

 

Two examples off the top of my head

 

This week we've seen the Scottish Govt attack the home office for enforcing the rule of law.

 

Last year Ian Blackford had to delete and apologise for an anti English tweet

 

Why would anybody want to replicate an old firm rivalry when it is that social disfuncionality that has held this country back so much.

 

Because its successful in creating support.  

 

Don't you get a little tired of seeing union flags on products that are not even of UK origin or listening to jingoistic nonsense spoken by a politician with a row of union flags behind them?

 

Not something I pay any attention to. I'd say its small minded to be concerned with such matters

 

Do you think pointing out that England's covid death rate is 50% higher than that of Scotland is one-upmanship? Some people seem to think i mention it because i am pleased that so many English people have died. What sort of mindset arrives at that conclusion?

 

I generally skim past your posts so I don't know what you've said previously

 

 any future indy Scotland should exist in its own right for its own reasons and to support its own values.

 

That's a fair enough point - as soon as they stop moaning about England/Westminster/Toaries/Boris/JRM, they'll be on the way 

 

We are not in this to be better than England, in most areas we already are. No indy supporter wants our future to be evaluated through the prism of Tory values any more  than they relish the very real prospect of Tory governments for the rest of their lives. This is not an us and them culture for the sake of it. We don't like the Tories and the way they do things and we are entitled to say so and do something about it.

 

That's your view and i respect your right to hold it. 

 

I’m not sure I’ve seen the SG attack the Home Office for enforcing the rule of law directly but if you have I’d be interested to see it. I do agree that the general stance of Sturgeon and Youseff is ridiculous though. I think what we have is the woke thinking that interests of the two illegals beats that of the collective interest which imo is that the law should be upheld. Similar would and has happened elsewhere in the UK. This is not a Scotland v England thing.

 

I find it hard to believe that Ian Blackford made an ant-English tweet but if you have one please tell us about it. I presume you mean the tweet aimed at an English photographer who Blackford thought had travelled from England to Scotland breaking Covid travel rules. It seems the photographer had moved permanently from England to Scotland only a few weeks previously and Blackford didn’t know this and apologised. If this is the tweet you are referring to perhaps you can explain how it is anti-English.

 

I genuinely fail to see how creating an old firm type rivalry creates support and am even more bemused as to how the SNP or indy movement have fostered this. I’m old enough to have attended several England v Scotland games and I can tell you the anti-English sentiment fifty or so years ago was much more virulent than that of today. In fact I can barely detect it nowadays. There was no SNP in parliament then and no Scottish parliament, Labour had landslides almost everywhere. We have come a long way in some respects but it is difficult for some to leave the old ways behind making it difficult for the rest of us to shake off the justifiable anti –English opinion many held.

 

 The flag waving is quite dangerous and the government’s recent widespread adoption of flags is giving us a message. That message is clear to me and the message is The UK is legitimate and Scotland is not. If the UK gov is going to fly their flag everywhere they can, those of us who feel they are doing so to destroy our identity should not retaliate in kind. We win through superior arguments leading to a majority at the ballot box. If we can’t do this we shouldn’t have indy.

 

  Who is moaning about England? You don’t have to be an indy supporter to complain about the rest or maybe you think Boris, JRM, Westminster and the Tories are serving us well.

[XB52]

Latest poll has SNP predicted to get 58 out of 59 seats in a UK election. A long way of I admit but not really any sign of this fall yet

[Unknown user]

22 hours ago, weehammy said:

So she’s the political equivalent of the ‘Guid Scottish Laddie’ so worshipped by the likes of Yogi Hughes?
I haven’t noticed anything she’s said or done in parliament to justify your enthusiastic endorsement.

Though she’s not my cup of tea, Joanna Cherry seemed significantly more able. But she got hooked for opposing the SNP’s  

‘anyone can be a woman if they say so’ policy.

 

Nope