The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

What were you suggesting?

That state pensions are different to private pensions.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

My issue with the SNP is that they are not being held to account by the electorate.

They say “independence” and everyone ignores every other issue and votes for them.

IMHO they are stalling independence furiously, as the fact it is still sitting there means they have a free pass until they get Indy , so it is actually against their interests .

even if a second ref is a “no” the cycle perpetuates.

Maybe Boris should accede to ref 2, but if it’s a no again the SNP agree to disband.

The electorate has had plenty of opportunities to hold the SNP to account should they chose to do so  in the last 10 years or so and they've returned them with more MPs and MSP's and larger vote shares in the main. Could it be that the majority of people consent to the governance of the SNP administration or that actually there is a substantial chunk of the electorate that actually want Scotland to be an independent country?

I think it's easy and lazy to fall into the 'politics of grievance' schtick. That kind of thinking is mired in the 70's & 80's when the SNP was seen as a factional collection of obsessive loons and the only real vote was for the monkey with the red rosette. That's why the Labour party is dead in Scotland and indirectly will never form a UK government again.

 

I would argue that Scottish Labour and the Tories need to disassociate themselves from their London parties and form proper Scottish parties to be taken seriously as opposed to the branch office mentality both currently have. It just doesn't wash in a modern democracy. 

[Auld Reekin']

33 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The electorate has had plenty of opportunities to hold the SNP to account should they chose to do so  in the last 10 years or so and they've returned them with more MPs and MSP's and larger vote shares in the main. Could it be that the majority of people consent to the governance of the SNP administration or that actually there is a substantial chunk of the electorate that actually want Scotland to be an independent country?

I think it's easy and lazy to fall into the 'politics of grievance' schtick. That kind of thinking is mired in the 70's & 80's when the SNP was seen as a factional collection of obsessive loons and the only real vote was for the monkey with the red rosette. That's why the Labour party is dead in Scotland and indirectly will never form a UK government again.

 

I would argue that Scottish Labour and the Tories need to disassociate themselves from their London parties and form proper Scottish parties to be taken seriously as opposed to the branch office mentality both currently have. It just doesn't wash in a modern democracy. 

 

Spot on - great post. 

[Swahili Jambo]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

My issue with the SNP is that they are not being held to account by the electorate.

They say “independence” and everyone ignores every other issue and votes for them.

IMHO they are stalling independence furiously, as the fact it is still sitting there means they have a free pass until they get Indy , so it is actually against their interests .

even if a second ref is a “no” the cycle perpetuates.

Maybe Boris should accede to ref 2, but if it’s a no again the SNP agree to disband.

What a frankly ignorant patronising post.      

[manaliveits105]

28 minutes ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Personally prefer, man alive his IQ is five.

Pick up sticks a couple of .........

[JackLadd]

Watching the "festivities" in George Square I have no idea why the Celtic minded vote SNP. They don't like to see a failed asylum seeker deported in Glasgow but will happily allow more 'walks' than they have in Belfast while escorting a law breaking horde to the city centre for a night of hate, vandalism and violence. A few mealy mouthed platitudes later and it's BAU in Scotland with Nicola concentrating on the important matters like Ref2. Failure is an option for the SNP and it pays well. 

[Brighton Jambo]

3 hours ago, Smithee said:

Vote for independence to get rid of the SNP

Yet another lie peddled by the SNP supporters to try and trick people into supporting independence.

 

If after a yes vote the SNP were to drop off then what’s to stop all the other unionist parties passing a bill to  have another referendum to rejoin the UK.  At that stage it would be 1-1 all so to speak so would be a totally legitimate question to ask.  The SNP will make that point over and over to make sure they hold power indefinitely and head off the “threat” of another referendum.  

[JT1959]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yet another lie peddled by the SNP supporters to try and trick people into supporting independence.

 

If after a yes vote the SNP were to drop off then what’s to stop all the other unionist parties passing a bill to  have another referendum to rejoin the UK.  At that stage it would be 1-1 all so to speak so would be a totally legitimate question to ask.  The SNP will make that point over and over to make sure they hold power indefinitely and head off the “threat” of another referendum.  

Aye, maybe best to check out the other 60 odd countries who have gained independence from British Rule if they hold regular referendums to rejoin.

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yet another lie peddled by the SNP supporters to try and trick people into supporting independence.

 

If after a yes vote the SNP were to drop off then what’s to stop all the other unionist parties passing a bill to  have another referendum to rejoin the UK.  At that stage it would be 1-1 all so to speak so would be a totally legitimate question to ask.  The SNP will make that point over and over to make sure they hold power indefinitely and head off the “threat” of another referendum.  

 

Jesus Christ on the cross...as another poster has said, how many other countries who managed to escape Westminster's grasp are continually debating handing back independence?

I get it you dont want an Scotland but come on to feck!

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yet another lie peddled by the SNP supporters to try and trick people into supporting independence.

 

If after a yes vote the SNP were to drop off then what’s to stop all the other unionist parties passing a bill to  have another referendum to rejoin the UK.  At that stage it would be 1-1 all so to speak so would be a totally legitimate question to ask.  The SNP will make that point over and over to make sure they hold power indefinitely and head off the “threat” of another referendum.  

We should definitely continue the conversation if enough people are dissatisfied, that's democracy. The rest is just your imagination running away with you.

[Cade]

This thread has now totally jumped the shark and is now in the realms of fever dreams, imagination land, conspiracy lunacy and fantasy.

 

Certain people have had complete mental breakdowns because the SNP won another massive landslide.

[John Findlay]

4 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

 

I would argue that Scottish Labour and the Tories need to disassociate themselves from their London parties and form proper Scottish parties to be taken seriously as opposed to the branch office mentality both currently have. It just doesn't wash in a modern democracy. 

Correct.

[Brighton Jambo]

1 hour ago, JT1959 said:

Aye, maybe best to check out the other 60 odd countries who have gained independence from British Rule if they hold regular referendums to rejoin.

 

Yeah because those things are directly comparable to Scottish independence.  Clown. 

[Brighton Jambo]

1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

Jesus Christ on the cross...as another poster has said, how many other countries who managed to escape Westminster's grasp are continually debating handing back independence?

I get it you dont want an Scotland but come on to feck!

Can you list some of these countries please and and tell me how they compare to a country that shares a land border with the rest of the UK and whose economy is absolutely dependent on trade with the rest of the UK.   Maybe we could look at Ireland and the decades of pain they went through, that sounds appealing?  
 

Given any yes vote is likely to be little more than 50% do you think the rest will just shrug and get on with it or will they push for another referendum.  Like what happened with Brexit for example, remainers tried everything could to get another vote to reverse it.  It would be exactly the same with Scottish independence.  

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Brighton Jambo

[Brighton Jambo]

23 minutes ago, Cade said:

This thread has now totally jumped the shark and is now in the realms of fever dreams, imagination land, conspiracy lunacy and fantasy.

 

Certain people have had complete mental breakdowns because the SNP won another massive landslide.

The main fantasy on this thread is those claiming that in an independent Scotland the SNP are going to somehow just disappear.  

[Konrad von Carstein]

17 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Can you list some of these countries please and and tell me how they compare to a country that shares a land border with the rest of the UK and whose economy is absolutely dependent on trade with the rest of the UK.   Maybe we could look at Ireland and the decades of pain they went through, that sounds appealing?  
 

Given any yes vote is likely to be little more than 50% do you think the rest will just shrug and get on with it or will they push for another referendum.  Like what happened with Brexit for example, remainers tried everything could to get another vote to reverse it.  It would be exactly the same with Scottish independence.  

 

No, I don't think I'll engage with you further,  for now, other than to say no country that has gained independence from Westminster wants to reverse that result.

 

Comparing Scotlands independence movement with utter cluster feck that is the island of Ireland's sectarian issues 👀

 

[Brighton Jambo]

9 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

No, I don't think I'll engage with you further,  for now, other than to say no country that has gained independence from Westminster wants to reverse that result.

 

Comparing Scotlands independence movement with utter cluster feck that is the island of Ireland's sectarian issues 👀

 

If you don’t think that the morning after a Yes vote there won’t be huge movement to try and force another referendum to reverse it you are delusional. No voters didn’t just give up in 2014 did they and still haven’t.

 

By the way I have found the list of counties.  See link below.  Not one of them is even remotely comparable to Scotland and it’s ties with the UK.  Not even close.  

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/gallery/2014/sep/19/every-single-country-that-has-left-the-united-kingdom-mapped

 

anyway let’s just agree to disagree....again! 
 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

12 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

If you don’t think that the morning after a Yes vote there won’t be huge movement to try and force another referendum to reverse it you are delusional. No voters didn’t just give up in 2014 did they and still haven’t.

 

By the way I have found the list of counties.  See link below.  Not one of them is even remotely comparable to Scotland and it’s ties with the UK.  Not even close.  

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/gallery/2014/sep/19/every-single-country-that-has-left-the-united-kingdom-mapped

 

anyway let’s just agree to disagree....again! 
 

 

I think agreeing to disagree,  once more, is a good tactic.

I actually like you as a poster (congratulations 😁) but sometimes I feel you post like you are on a sugar high.

[Unknown user]

17 minutes ago, weehammy said:

The link, often cited by my parent’s generation, between national insurance contributions and benefits like pensions and entitlement to free NHS care - no longer exists.

National Insurance is just a tax. The money it raises is not ring-fenced to pensions or healthcare, it just goes into the Treasury pot. In fact some economists have recommended simply consolidating it with income tax.

It makes no difference if it's ringfenced, the social contract exists.

If you pay NI contributions for 30 years you're entitled to it, and if you haven't you can pay up to the equivalent of 30 years to get it.

 

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/eligibility

 

 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

It makes no difference if it's ringfenced, the social contract exists.

If you pay NI contributions for 30 years you're entitled to it, and if you haven't you can pay up to the equivalent of 30 years to get it.

 

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/eligibility

 

 

 

I should have added that the requirement is 10 years contribution for the new pension, but it's all there in black and white, it's legal - you do X, you'll get Y.

[Boris]

3 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Yet another lie peddled by the SNP supporters to try and trick people into supporting independence.

 

If after a yes vote the SNP were to drop off then what’s to stop all the other unionist parties passing a bill to  have another referendum to rejoin the UK.  At that stage it would be 1-1 all so to speak so would be a totally legitimate question to ask.  The SNP will make that point over and over to make sure they hold power indefinitely and head off the “threat” of another referendum.  

Wouldn't rUK have to also have a referendum to see if they wanted Scotland back?

[Boris]

I mean, given what a drain Scotland is to rUK already, why would they want us back?

[Brighton Jambo]

15 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

I think agreeing to disagree,  once more, is a good tactic.

I actually like you as a poster (congratulations 😁) but sometimes I feel you post like you are on a sugar high.

It’s usually when I have had a bad day and am running on adrenaline.  Tonight but boss just called me from the US to say she has been fired and is leaving in two weeks.  I liked her too so am wired to the moon tonight hence the posting....

[Ulysses]

12 hours ago, Spellczech said:

So we are back to what I said originally. The SNP want us to take a leap of faith...That prospect can only be attractive for reckless people with nothing to lose. Anyone with a job and property is better to stick with the status quo.

 

There's no status quo if London keeps changing the rules, which means it's a leap of faith either way.  But your line of argument can be undermined because it sets a test for independence that can't be passed, and because it assumes that Scotland and the SNP are one and the same, which they aren't and shouldn't be.

 

In the final analysis, there is only one good reason for staying in the UK (because you want to), and only one good reason for leaving (because you want to).  Any other argument is just padding or confirmation bias.

[Ulysses]

12 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

And a UK pension

 

What kind of UK pension?  The UK paid occupational pensions to Irish recipients (military, civil servants and the like) long after independence.  State pensions rightly became the responsibility of the Irish state, along with the rest of the welfare system.

[Ulysses]

 

12 hours ago, Spellczech said:

Conjecture and opinion? I've just been denied the right to form an opinion because, apparently, the Scottish Govt don't run the country at the moment...

 

Denied the right to form an opinion?  Christ in a galvanised bucket, when did you get so sensitive?

 

I said your argument was weak and could be undermined.  Instead of blaming me for that, post a better argument.

 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

7 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Denied the right to form an opinion?  Christ in a galvanised bucket, when did you get so sensitive?

 

I said your argument was weak and could be undermined.  Instead of blaming me for that, post a better argument.

 

 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Maybe we could look at Ireland and the decades of pain they went through, that sounds appealing? 

 

Are you serious?  Like, are you remotely serious?  And if you are, why?

[Ulysses]

Would an independent Scotland also leave NATO?  If so, why?

[Ulysses]

3 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

 

I was going to say something else, but you got there first.

[Spellczech]

34 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

There's no status quo if London keeps changing the rules, which means it's a leap of faith either way.  But your line of argument can be undermined because it sets a test for independence that can't be passed, and because it assumes that Scotland and the SNP are one and the same, which they aren't and shouldn't be.

 

In the final analysis, there is only one good reason for staying in the UK (because you want to), and only one good reason for leaving (because you want to).  Any other argument is just padding or confirmation bias.

So, no considered opinions allowed, just a gut feel?

22 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Denied the right to form an opinion?  Christ in a galvanised bucket, when did you get so sensitive?

 

I said your argument was weak and could be undermined.  Instead of blaming me for that, post a better argument.

 

 

 

Your own argument that the Scottish Government doesn't govern Scotland isn't the strongest argument, you know...As I keep saying it is the Indy supporters who need to win over people like me to take a leap of faith with them. I have no need at all to "post a better argument"...

 

All I can say is I will never vote for independence unless someone puts forward a strong economic case for it resolving all the questions about currency, national debt, over-reliance on oil, too high a proportion of workers being employed in the public sector, repeated Budget deficits. 

 

Unlike the 13th/14th Century Scots are not over-burdened with tax by the dastardly English, rather it is our own Government which chooses/requires to tax us more heavily than our neighbours down south...

[Ulysses]

6 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

So, no considered opinions allowed, just a gut feel?

 

Your own argument that the Scottish Government doesn't govern Scotland isn't the strongest argument, you know...As I keep saying it is the Indy supporters who need to win over people like me to take a leap of faith with them. I have no need at all to "post a better argument"...

 

All I can say is I will never vote for independence unless someone puts forward a strong economic case for it resolving all the questions about currency, national debt, over-reliance on oil, too high a proportion of workers being employed in the public sector, repeated Budget deficits. 

 

Unlike the 13th/14th Century Scots are not over-burdened with tax by the dastardly English, rather it is our own Government which chooses/requires to tax us more heavily than our neighbours down south...

 

Your first line doesn't and can't make sense - it's a statement pretending to be a question.  But in any case you do not have a considered opinion, just a gut feel.  You know that - which is why you've now twice played the "not allowed" card.  It isn't my place to prevent people from having an opinion, right or wrong, so even if I wanted to I can't deny you the right to an opinion.  You saying you were denied an opinion was simply wrong.  And if you post an opinion, you should expect it to be challenged, whether it's right or wrong.

 

See the bit highlighted?  I didn't say that.  Stop making stuff up.  What I said was that you can't run governing a country as a laboratory experiment - either you have independence, autonomy and responsibility or you do not.  Scotland does not, and therefore no party can ever pass the artificial test of governing the country well or badly.  If you follow that logic through to its conclusion then the Baltic States should have stuck with Russia, Czechoslovakia should still be a single country, and Croatia should still be married to the Serbs in a failed Yugoslavia.  I also pointed out that unless Scotland is a one-party State it is not the responsibility of the SNP to run Scotland; that choice lies with the voters.

 

See the bit highlighted in red?  There's no unless.  You'll never vote for independence.  You've already made your mind up.  All you're doing now is making up reasons for it so you can claim that there are some logical tests that independence is failing.  There's nothing wrong with the first part of that - making your mind up.  That's what most people on both sides have done.  There is something wrong in inventing irrational "tests" that either can't be passed or are subjective in nature.  People who do that are kidding themselves as much as anyone else.  Just say what you believe and say you're not for changing.  That's principled at least.

 

Your last point is utterly irrelevant.  You don't vote for or against a constitutional arrangement on the basis of a single policy when that policy could be changed by another government following an election.  It's another example of your confirmation bias picking something and using it as an excuse to justify your opinion.  If you were a supporter of independence you could pretend higher taxes and higher public spending were a good thing and justified independence, but that would be just as inaccurate.

[Spellczech]

56 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Your first line doesn't and can't make sense - it's a statement pretending to be a question.  But in any case you do not have a considered opinion, just a gut feel.  You know that - which is why you've now twice played the "not allowed" card.  It isn't my place to prevent people from having an opinion, right or wrong, so even if I wanted to I can't deny you the right to an opinion.  You saying you were denied an opinion was simply wrong.  And if you post an opinion, you should expect it to be challenged, whether it's right or wrong.

 

See the bit highlighted?  I didn't say that.  Stop making stuff up.  What I said was that you can't run governing a country as a laboratory experiment - either you have independence, autonomy and responsibility or you do not.  Scotland does not, and therefore no party can ever pass the artificial test of governing the country well or badly.  If you follow that logic through to its conclusion then the Baltic States should have stuck with Russia, Czechoslovakia should still be a single country, and Croatia should still be married to the Serbs in a failed Yugoslavia.  I also pointed out that unless Scotland is a one-party State it is not the responsibility of the SNP to run Scotland; that choice lies with the voters.

 

See the bit highlighted in red?  There's no unless.  You'll never vote for independence.  You've already made your mind up.  All you're doing now is making up reasons for it so you can claim that there are some logical tests that independence is failing.  There's nothing wrong with the first part of that - making your mind up.  That's what most people on both sides have done.  There is something wrong in inventing irrational "tests" that either can't be passed or are subjective in nature.  People who do that are kidding themselves as much as anyone else.  Just say what you believe and say you're not for changing.  That's principled at least.

 

Your last point is utterly irrelevant.  You don't vote for or against a constitutional arrangement on the basis of a single policy when that policy could be changed by another government following an election.  It's another example of your confirmation bias picking something and using it as an excuse to justify your opinion.  If you were a supporter of independence you could pretend higher taxes and higher public spending were a good thing and justified independence, but that would be just as inaccurate.

Ok, let's just leave it as I clearly think the "Government" in Scottish Government means something totally different from whatever you think it means...

[Ulysses]

51 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Ok, let's just leave it as I clearly think the "Government" in Scottish Government means something totally different from whatever you think it means...

 

I've no idea what you think it is, but I know it's not a Government.  Ireland has a Government.  Scotland has a regional executive using the title "Government".  They are not remotely the same thing.

 

If you think they are the same, let's see what happens if the Scottish "Government" tries to join the EU, leave NATO, change the rate of Corporation Tax, or open a few embassies.

[dobmisterdobster]

Focus on improving the living standards for Scottish people.

Focus on people not flags.

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Focus on improving the living standards for Scottish people.

Focus on people not flags.

Only one government overtly pushing slavish devotion to a flag!

One government MP even raised the "issue" at a comittee meeting demanding that even more UF's should be on show throughout the 4 nations.

[Spellczech]

8 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I've no idea what you think it is, but I know it's not a Government.  Ireland has a Government.  Scotland has a regional executive using the title "Government".  They are not remotely the same thing.

 

If you think they are the same, let's see what happens if the Scottish "Government" tries to join the EU, leave NATO, change the rate of Corporation Tax, or open a few embassies.

It is a devolved Government with limited powers. Government doesn't need to mean omnipotence. Foreign policy doesn't affect you or me directly. Thank goodness they don't yet have power to increase CT as they haven't proven they can balance a budget even after raising Income tax...

Edited May 18, 2021 by Spellczech

[coconut doug]

8 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

It is a devolved Government with limited powers. Government doesn't need to mean omnipotence. Foreign policy doesn't affect you or me directly. Thank goodness they don't yet have power to increase CT as they haven't proven they can balance a budget even after raising Income tax...

 

Astonishing that you haven't bothered to check out why you were previously challenged on the claim that Scottish governments cannot balance the books. All scottish governments have, they are compelled to do so. It might be worth considering why you are so sure that they do not.

 

     The notion that foreign policy does not affect you directly is a strange notion too. Our country is increasingly populated by migrant workers and refugees while at the same time the free movement of goods and people and right to work of UK citizens is increasingly curtailed. The fall out our previous illegal wars and close alignment to the USA has seriously diminished our standing in the world as has our Trump like reluctance to abide by international agreements. 

[Spellczech]

1 minute ago, coconut doug said:

 

Astonishing that you haven't bothered to check out why you were previously challenged on the claim that Scottish governments cannot balance the books. All scottish governments have, they are compelled to do so. It might be worth considering why you are so sure that they do not.

 

     The notion that foreign policy does not affect you directly is a strange notion too. Our country is increasingly populated by migrant workers and refugees while at the same time the free movement of goods and people and right to work of UK citizens is increasingly curtailed. The fall out our previous illegal wars and close alignment to the USA has seriously diminished our standing in the world as has our Trump like reluctance to abide by international agreements. 

So you don't agree with the SNP paradox about leaving the UK to re-join the EU?

 

Allowing foreign migrants in is not foreign policy - that's why immigration falls under the Home Secretary's remit.

 

What do you mean by our "standing in the World"? UK has been USA's henchman since WW2 - just look at how often Raab speaks the warnings about Russia on America's behalf.

 

As for this supposed failure to stand by international agreements - it has been our very "British" honouring of agreements which caused us to leave the EU. As an example, Slovakia was told to be nicer to their Romany population, so they build them houses, which then got trashed so next time they were told to be nicer to their Romanies, they turned round and said "Nope we are not a rich country, if you want to take these people, please do". Other countries just ignore EU laws when it suits them and pay the fine on the never, never. UK never did. We enacted them all, and p'd off the populace.

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

So you don't agree with the SNP paradox about leaving the UK to re-join the EU?

 

Allowing foreign migrants in is not foreign policy - that's why immigration falls under the Home Secretary's remit.

 

What do you mean by our "standing in the World"? UK has been USA's henchman since WW2 - just look at how often Raab speaks the warnings about Russia on America's behalf.

 

As for this supposed failure to stand by international agreements - it has been our very "British" honouring of agreements which caused us to leave the EU. As an example, Slovakia was told to be nicer to their Romany population, so they build them houses, which then got trashed so next time they were told to be nicer to their Romanies, they turned round and said "Nope we are not a rich country, if you want to take these people, please do". Other countries just ignore EU laws when it suits them and pay the fine on the never, never. UK never did. We enacted them all, and p'd off the populace.

All of this has a commonality running through it.

 

Immigration, Britain's standing, British honour and of course the clamour to leave the EU, to 'take back control'. It all harks back to a time when Britain was a thing, when it was relevant, when it roamed the world bring the natives under the yoke of the British Empire the asset stripping the countries of their minerals and for a long period, their people.

 

The world has moved on. Global politics and economics have moved on. Britain is going backwards at a rate of knots and given the current WM government's ideology (fully endorsed by a largely unsuspecting popluace) it will become further removed from the direction of travel of the rest of Europe and indeed the rest of the world. 

 

The fact that a large percentage of the Scottish voting population want no part of that global isolation and bizarrely don't still think Britannia rules the waves appears to be lost on a lot of people who seem to still think that Britain is a great thing. 

 

I don't. I don't see a future for Scotland handcuffed to an isolationist nation with delusions of grandeur and relevance in the 21st century. 

[manaliveits105]

Over 50% of Scots seem to think Britain is ok 

[Unknown user]

[Unknown user]

On 17/05/2021 at 10:05, Spellczech said:

Conjecture and opinion? I've just been denied the right to form an opinion because, apparently, the Scottish Govt don't run the country at the moment...

 

I hadn't seen this, what utter nonsense, and a signpost of where the debate is.

 

You're not being denied the right to form an opinion, it's a ridiculous claim from someone with a brain in their head.

 

He has no authority, he hasn't censored your views or deleted your posts. Your complaint is actually that your opinion is being challenged and that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

It's an extension of the "My opinion is as good as your facts" thinking that we see from the Trump fanbase, and an exact replica of the same complaint that many of those dullards use when clamped. You're better than that.

[Spellczech]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I hadn't seen this, what utter nonsense, and a signpost of where the debate is.

 

You're not being denied the right to form an opinion, it's a ridiculous claim from someone with a brain in their head.

 

He has no authority, he hasn't censored your views or deleted your posts. Your complaint is actually that your opinion is being challenged and that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

It's an extension of the "My opinion is as good as your facts" thinking that we see from the Trump fanbase, and an exact replica of the same complaint that many of those dullards use when clamped. You're better than that.

Hello. I was being facetious.

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Hello. I was being facetious.

Yeah I'd probably go with that too

[Spellczech]

Just now, Smithee said:

Yeah I'd probably go with that too

That is the problem with the Independence debate. It's totally back to front. People who support independence only want to hear and critique arguments against independence, and refuse to accept that there is no requirement to support the status quo until they first provide strong coherent economically sound arguments for independence...

 

I'm the one you need to win over, not the other way round.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

That is the problem with the Independence debate. It's totally back to front. People who support independence only want to hear and critique arguments against independence, and refuse to accept that there is no requirement to support the status quo until they first provide strong coherent economically sound arguments for independence...

 

I'm the one you need to win over, not the other way round.

 

Glad you've given up on that one.

 

That aside, nonsense.

Unionists have this idea that "I'm the one you need to convince"

Nope, it's those in the middle that need to be convinced.

 

So let's hear your convincing argument to them on the chosen subject - let's hear your strong, coherent, economically sound arguments for the union that's in trillions of pounds of debt and climbing that we don't have any control over?

[Spellczech]

20 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Glad you've given up on that one.

 

That aside, nonsense.

Unionists have this idea that "I'm the one you need to convince"

Nope, it's those in the middle that need to be convinced.

 

So let's hear your convincing argument to them on the chosen subject - let's hear your strong, coherent, economically sound arguments for the union that's in trillions of pounds of debt and climbing that we don't have any control over?

You just proved my point...You're claiming victory yet you haven't convinced me at all.

 

I'm not a Unionist. I AM the middle!!! 

 

In the past I've voted Libdem, Labour, Conservative, SNP and I even voted Green once - before they decided to sell out and just ape the SNP by flying off to the left to win votes...

Edited May 18, 2021 by Spellczech

[Ron Burgundy]

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

You just proved my point...You're claiming victory yet you haven't convinced me at all.

 

I'm not a Unionist. I AM the middle!!! 

No you are not. If you are not pro independence then you are a Tory traitor, that's how it works.

[coconut doug]

6 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

So you don't agree with the SNP paradox about leaving the UK to re-join the EU?

 

Allowing foreign migrants in is not foreign policy - that's why immigration falls under the Home Secretary's remit.

 

What do you mean by our "standing in the World"? UK has been USA's henchman since WW2 - just look at how often Raab speaks the warnings about Russia on America's behalf.

 

As for this supposed failure to stand by international agreements - it has been our very "British" honouring of agreements which caused us to leave the EU. As an example, Slovakia was told to be nicer to their Romany population, so they build them houses, which then got trashed so next time they were told to be nicer to their Romanies, they turned round and said "Nope we are not a rich country, if you want to take these people, please do". Other countries just ignore EU laws when it suits them and pay the fine on the never, never. UK never did. We enacted them all, and p'd off the populace.

 

Why don't you answer the bit about the SNP being unable to balance the budget? You've repeatedly made that claim.

 

Immigration is Home a home office function. The reason so many people are trecking across the world to get here is because of UK foreign policy as in Iraq, Afghanistan,Syria, Libya and others.

 

Our standing in the world is very low i believe because we are perceived as America's henchman. Something that has impacted on us for many years. Just this week a report shows UK soldiers more likely to die and be injured in Afghanistan than any other country. We were in Helmand province, the most dangerous part showing our special relationship pals just how much pain we were prepred to take for their interests.

 

As far as int agreements are concerned see Northern ireland.

 

      The Russians have been coming for as long as i can remember but never arrived. We were supposed to respect a buffer zone between Nato countries and Russia, we were supposed to play a part in the reduction of nuclear weapons we are now increasing ours having torn up the agreements. Our relationships with other countries (foreign policy) is determined by what America wants not by what is good for us. The Russophobia is ridiculous. History shows us America is not the friend many think it is.

 

 I dont think other countries ignore EU laws. i think all countries have had difficulties at times. I would be interested to know which EU laws we implemented that annoyed so many UK citizens. Seems to me the biggest driver in leaving the EU was immigration. This was the pretext and opportunity for unscrupulous businesses to further access our public services and lower standards while evading accountability.