The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Brighton Jambo]

10 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Yeah, you know what, you're absolutely right: Scotland did have an influence over the implementation of Brexit...

 

"OK, Scotland - do you want Brexit to go ahead?"

 

"No - absolutely not!"

 

"Oh well, tough titty, we're implementing it anyway..."

 

Yep - that sure is some influence, right enough!  

 

(Oh, and by the way, reading the pish you post certainly makes me want to have a few drinks, but I am - sad to say - stone cold.  )

If the SNP had voted for remaining in the customs union option it would have passed.  They chose to abstain and it failed leading to a much harder Brexit.  So let’s not hear that they didn’t have an influence over Brexit.  

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

If the SNP had voted for remaining in the customs union option it would have passed.  They chose to abstain and it failed leading to a much harder Brexit.  So let’s not hear that they didn’t have an influence over Brexit.  

I'm fairly sure they were talking about whether Scotland had influence in the implementation of brexit, not whether the SNP abstained from voting in a deal they wanted nothing to do with.

 

The Scottish government and people's concerns and interests were roundly ignored, that's how much influence we had in the implementation of brexit.

[Auld Reekin']

2 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Oh dear

 

Against our wishes !

 

Who's wishes ?

 

Your wishes ?

 

Joe Bloggs wishes ?

 

Pure and utter Sturgeon talk

 

Laughable not to mention pathetic

 

BRexit

 

BRitain

 

f.f.s... REALLY?!?!?!?

 

Against the wishes of a large majority of the Scottish electorate who voted in the Brexit referendum. What else could you possibly think I meant? Either you are not the brightest or sharpest, or you are being deliberately obtuse to suit your blinkered agenda. Which of these is the case, I don't know and I don't care.

 

Oh, and shove your BRexit and your BRitain up your jacksie sailor-boy.    And, whilst you're doing that, I'll just pop you onto ignore. Ta-ta.

[Brighton Jambo]

6 hours ago, Smithee said:

I'm fairly sure they were talking about whether Scotland had influence in the implementation of brexit, not whether the SNP abstained from voting in a deal they wanted nothing to do with.

 

The Scottish government and people's concerns and interests were roundly ignored, that's how much influence we had in the implementation of brexit.

One of the Scottish government’s main concerns was leaving the customs union and access to the single market.  For political reasons they abstained from a vote that could have secured both.  If they have a vote to influence the outcome of Brexit and chose not to use it that cannot be said to being ignored.  They literally could have changed the direction of Brexit but chose not to, how much influence do they need.

 

Doesnt fit the narrative though does it.  
 

 

[Unknown user]

36 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

One of the Scottish government’s main concerns was leaving the customs union and access to the single market.  For political reasons they abstained from a vote that could have secured both.  If they have a vote to influence the outcome of Brexit and chose not to use it that cannot be said to being ignored.  They literally could have changed the direction of Brexit but chose not to, how much influence do they need.

 

Doesnt fit the narrative though does it.  

 

The SNP sat a vote out at Westminster. The Scottish government weren't consulted and the SNP were ignored at Westminster.

 

You can claim that this is Scotland having influence over the implementation of brexit all you like but it's a really stupid argument, brexit wasn't shaped or influenced by Scotland.

[Brighton Jambo]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

The SNP sat a vote out at Westminster. The Scottish government weren't consulted and the SNP were ignored at Westminster.

 

You can claim that this is Scotland having influence over the implementation of brexit all you like but it's a really stupid argument, brexit wasn't shaped or influenced by Scotland.

Let’s agree to disagree.  The facts are the facts, if Scotland’s majority party had voted for a customs union, which is what they wanted, that option would have passed.  The fact they chose not to for political reasons makes squealing about not having influence a nonsense point.  Which is of course exactly what they wanted to happen.  

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

It wasn't a Scotland issue 

 

It was a UK national vote - but any excuse eh ?

 

Always the victims

Even though I voted to remain I do accept it was a U.K. issue . We as the U.K. voted to join the EU therefore it made sense to have it a U.K. wide vote to leave . It would be interesting to see what the stats were from Scotland at the original vote to join ? Ironic if it was a majority of No 

[Mysterion]

4 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Let’s agree to disagree.  The facts are the facts, if Scotland’s majority party had voted for a customs union, which is what they wanted, that option would have passed.  The fact they chose not to for political reasons makes squealing about not having influence a nonsense point.  Which is of course exactly what they wanted to happen.  

 

100% this - i hated Brexit but failing to force a soft version of it through a formal customs union was the biggest mistake of the last 5yrs by the SNP. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just checked up out of curiosity about the 1975 ref to stay or leave the EU . Scotland by voted 58% to 38% to stay . Not to dissimilar to 2016 

[maroonlegions]

12 hours ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Scotland certainly had / has no say over the implementation of Brexit, how it is supposed to work, and any future UK trade deals with Outer Mongolia, Papua New Guinea, and Upper Volta. 

Scotland voted to remain.

[coconut doug]

29 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

100% this - i hated Brexit but failing to force a soft version of it through a formal customs union was the biggest mistake of the last 5yrs by the SNP. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

One of the Scottish government’s main concerns was leaving the customs union and access to the single market.  For political reasons they abstained from a vote that could have secured both.  If they have a vote to influence the outcome of Brexit and chose not to use it that cannot be said to being ignored.  They literally could have changed the direction of Brexit but chose not to, how much influence do they need.

 

Doesnt fit the narrative though does it.  
 

 

 

   The SNP could not vote for a customs union as that's not what the majority of Scots voted for. Had they done so they would have been pilloried for supporting Brexit. Political reasons yes but they were in a no win situation and couldn't be sure of the outcome anyway. If you remember correctly we didn't vote to retain ties we voted to leave entirely pretending Brexit is the fault of the SNp is even sillier than pretending there is no difference in the Covid death rates between England and Scotland.

         I think the point was that Scotland's parliament and democratically elected representatives were not consulted and that some of Scotland's power over non reserved matters were returned to Westminster. At the same time Northern Ireland via the DUP was being given large sums of money to support the hard line option. In Northern Ireland the government made all sorts of other concessions many of which would have been favourable to Scotland. They even consulted the terrorist organisations to see if it was o.k. with them https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/12/uk-ministers-meet-representatives-of-ni-paramilitaries-to-discuss-brexit Just like they did in Thatcher's day. No referendum for us ever but a  review of public opinion in NI every 7 years, via terrorists to see if they fancy one. 

           

[manaliveits105]

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

One of the Scottish government’s main concerns was leaving the customs union and access to the single market.  For political reasons they abstained from a vote that could have secured both.  If they have a vote to influence the outcome of Brexit and chose not to use it that cannot be said to being ignored.  They literally could have changed the direction of Brexit but chose not to, how much influence do they need.

 

Doesnt fit the narrative though does it.  
 

 

Absolute disgrace choosing opposing the Toooooaries over the good of the Scottish people  and trade seems to have been overlooked by the daily gum bumpers on the other thread

the snp are truly shit 

[Mysterion]

29 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

 

   The SNP could not vote for a customs union as that's not what the majority of Scots voted for.

           

 

Hey - you don't need to tell me what the majority voted for however there comes a time where you have to make unpopular choices to avoid an even more unpopular outcome.

 

They stood up to every horrific idea Brexiteers proposed, said all the right things and could have easily argued and won the debate on "least worse case" - ultimately we got the unpopular outcome. I understand the decision but don't agree with it. 

 

If you reply to this - don't take my response as being anti SNP or pro union btw.

[Auld Reekin']

1 hour ago, maroonlegions said:

Scotland voted to remain.

 

I'm well aware of that, however what I stated in the post you replied to still applies!    

 

A vote against something that is subsequently implemented does not in any way influence the way in which it is implemented, how it is made to work (or not), nor anything that happens with it in the future.  

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Let’s agree to disagree.  The facts are the facts, if Scotland’s majority party had voted for a customs union, which is what they wanted, that option would have passed.  The fact they chose not to for political reasons makes squealing about not having influence a nonsense point.  Which is of course exactly what they wanted to happen.  

 

The SNP didn't want to leave, they had no mandate to vote for brexit against the will of the people who voted for them.

 

Now you can say that means Scotland had influence in the implementation of brexit but it's a pretty weak claim.

[Brighton Jambo]

15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

The SNP didn't want to leave, they had no mandate to vote for brexit against the will of the people who voted for them.

 

Now you can say that means Scotland had influence in the implementation of brexit but it's a pretty weak claim.

You and I both know that it wasn’t a vote for Brexit.  It was a vote to minimise the negative impact on Scotland and Scotland’s economy and they chose not to do that for political reasons.

 

if they had voted for the customs union which was in complete opposition to what the Tories wanted they could easily have explained that to the Scottish electorate as having secured the least damaging option for Scotland.

 

in doing what they did they ensured a harder Brexit than we needed to endure for the simple reason is it furthers the politics of grievance.  Sometimes governments need take tough decisions for the good of the country.  They refused to do so.  

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Brighton Jambo said:

You and I both know that it wasn’t a vote for Brexit.  It was a vote to minimise the negative impact on Scotland and Scotland’s economy and they chose not to do that for political reasons.

 

if they had voted for the customs union which was in complete opposition to what the Tories wanted they could easily have explained that to the Scottish electorate as having secured the least damaging option for Scotland.

 

in doing what they did they ensured a harder Brexit than we needed to endure for the simple reason is it furthers the politics of grievance.  Sometimes governments need take tough decisions for the good of the country.  They refused to do so.  

 

Scotland had no say in the implementation of brexit.

[Brighton Jambo]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Scotland had no say in the implementation of brexit.

As has been proven very clearly on this thread that is just nonsense.  
 

when you get a vote on what Brexit should look like and actually your votes could tip the balance to a softer Brexit that’s the very definition of having a say in the implementation of Brexit.  

Edited May 13, 2021 by Brighton Jambo

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

As has been proven very clearly on this thread that is just nonsense.  
 

when you get a vote on what Brexit should look like and actually your votes could tip the balance to a softer Brexit that’s the very definition of having a say in the implementation of Brexit.  

 

Northern Ireland was, Scotland wasn't.

[Cade]

Getting a vote on a deal cooked up by one section of one party without any consultation is not "having a say", no matter how much you squirm and try to pretend it is.

[Brighton Jambo]

26 minutes ago, Cade said:

Getting a vote on a deal cooked up by one section of one party without any consultation is not "having a say", no matter how much you squirm and try to pretend it is.

The SNP vote could have completely reversed the direction Brexit was taking and ensured we remained in the customs union.  That is 100% having a say.  It’s factual no matter how hard you argue it’s a mathematical fact that SNP could have guaranteed a softer Brexit and chose not to.  

Edited May 13, 2021 by Brighton Jambo

[Unknown user]

a Tory pointing the brexit finger at the SNP

[Brighton Jambo]

11 minutes ago, Smithee said:

a Tory pointing the brexit finger at the SNP

I voted remain.  I don’t vote Tory. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Brighton Jambo

[Brighton Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Smithee said:

a Tory pointing the brexit finger at the SNP

Also, Brexit was 100% on the Tories and UKIP.  No question about that.  The fact that we have a harder Brexit than we needed to is partly on the SNP as the voting data clearly shows.  Even posters on here supportive of the SNP have agreed with that point today.  

[Boris]

59 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

The SNP vote could have completely reversed the direction Brexit was taking and ensured we remained in the customs union.  That is 100% having a say.  It’s factual no matter how hard you argue it’s a mathematical fact that SNP could have guaranteed a softer Brexit and chose not to.  

 

But equally TIG vote for it and it passes.  Or the 12 Labour MP's.  Or the other abstaining Liberals.

 

I can't remember the context of this vote tbh i.e. would have definitely made a difference?

[Malinga the Swinga]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

But equally TIG vote for it and it passes.  Or the 12 Labour MP's.  Or the other abstaining Liberals.

 

I can't remember the context of this vote tbh i.e. would have definitely made a difference?

No one will ever know. It might have been passed or it might have caused General Election to be called earlier. 

If passed, would Theresa May have got it into legislation, or would it have been blocked by tory euro sceptics. Remember, at the time, UKIP were riding crest if wave, and they were all over this. 

That's the problem with hindsight, it highlights crucial points, but you can't change them. 

Wish you could. Would tell Kingsley & Wighton to put penalties in other corners. 

[manaliveits105]

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I voted remain.  I don’t vote Tory. 

In Krankieworld you are either a krankie or a Tory brexiteer  there is nothing else

[coconut doug]

3 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

As has been proven very clearly on this thread that is just nonsense.  
 

when you get a vote on what Brexit should look like and actually your votes could tip the balance to a softer Brexit that’s the very definition of having a say in the implementation of Brexit.  

 

Having the ability to vote for something you do not support is not having your say. They had their say in parliament as did everybody else and all propositions were defeated. 

 

        Presumably everybody who voted against these propositions did so for laudable and principled reasons and the SNP did so out of politival grievance. Those who voted for Brexit despite claiming not to support it did so out of respect for the wishes of the electorate and nothing whatsoever to do with trying to hold onto their seats. They didn't even claim to be making their voting decision on the basis of what was good for the country.

 

  Had the SNP voted with the Tories they would never have been able to live it down. Tartan Tory amunition for their haters. Not being stupid is not grievance politics. The fact that their decision to abstain still irks you is testimony enough to the quality of ithe decision. We wanted to stay in the EU. We want to be a progressive internationalist country not some apologist backwater for degenerate Tory values.

 

  Yet another pathetic attempt to attach culpability to the SNP when there is none. Typical grievance mongering by those who think Scotland should just take everything Westminster throws at us. 

 

 If Westminster thought it appropriate that Scotland's interests should be formally considered they would have done so. They don't care about us or anybody else as long as they think they can get away with it. That's why they were bribing the DUP lunatics and shaping UK policies around the wishes of the terrorists while simultaneously claiming the EU were negotiating in bad faith.

[The Real Maroonblood]

4 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Manchester and London also voted majority Remain. Should they seek independence too?

[Don Dan]

Slightly off topic but a bit relevant when it comes to joining the EU.

The Leave side made many claims out regaining control of our borders. Portugal are deciding whether to break away from the Brussels travel ban and allow 3rd countries in for holidays.

The Brussels strangle hold was over egged and iScotland could benefit from remembering this. Joining would only strengthen us. 

 

Portugal will decide today whether to break from Brussels' blanket travel ban on non-EU travellers and open its borders to British holidaymakers desperate for Mediterranean sunshine after a gruelling winter of lockdown.

The Portuguese Cabinet is meeting to discuss options to welcome non-essential travel by people from third countries including Britain, in a move which is thought to have led to diplomatic wrangling with the Commission.

The matter has been complicated by the fact Portugal currently holds the rotating EU presidency. However, the mechanism Brussels is using to restrict non-essential travel to the UK is a recommendation and as such is not legally binding - meaning Lisbon could change its laws to let Britons in from Monday if it wanted.  

[coconut doug]

6 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Hey - you don't need to tell me what the majority voted for however there comes a time where you have to make unpopular choices to avoid an even more unpopular outcome.

 

They stood up to every horrific idea Brexiteers proposed, said all the right things and could have easily argued and won the debate on "least worse case" - ultimately we got the unpopular outcome. I understand the decision but don't agree with it. 

 

If you reply to this - don't take my response as being anti SNP or pro union btw.

 

The SNP simply couldn't vote with the Brexiteers even the milder variant. They would always be associated with fascilitating Brexit in a similar way to how the fall of the Callaghan gov and the Thatcher years were attributed to them.

 

  It's also true that nobody knew where a customs union negotiations would take us anyway and even the best case scenario would mean the SNP would be blamed for the removal of European citizens rights which were more important to many of us.

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I voted remain.  I don’t vote Tory. 

You've identified as a conservative on here before have you not?

[Cade]

"I've made a deal to sell your house for ten quid, I want your go-ahead"

"Nae chance. Bolt!"

"I sold the house anyways but only got a fiver. This is your fault."

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

You've identified as a conservative on here before have you not?

Not to pile on BJ (!) but I seem to recall he has in the past,  but he's also said he'd vote for the party he considered would do best for him and his family.

[Unknown user]

55 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Not to pile on BJ (!) but I seem to recall he has in the past,  but he's also said he'd vote for the party he considered would do best for him and his family.

I'll take your word for that, I didn't think I'd imagined it.

[Brighton Jambo]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

You've identified as a conservative on here before have you not?

I have voted for them previously but not since Cameron’s first term.  

[JackLadd]

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

In Krankieworld you are either a krankie or a Tory brexiteer  there is nothing else

 

Krankieworld: an in development tartan clown and deformed oddity theme park. 

 

The Krankie would a good name for the new currency in lieu of Krankieland meeting Brussels entry criteria. We can only guess at the Krankies to the pound rate. A Johnny Ball think of a number special.  

[kila]

Still no shortage of tears I see 

 

 

 

[NANOJAMBO]

20 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Krankieworld: an in development tartan clown and deformed oddity theme park. 

 

The Krankie would a good name for the new currency in lieu of Krankieland meeting Brussels entry criteria. We can only guess at the Krankies to the pound rate. A Johnny Ball think of a number special.  

Tragic patter. 

[JackLadd]

4 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Tragic patter. 

 

I wish it was patter. How's the house hunting in Dumfries? A true Krankie does not in the shires of Ingerlun. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, JackLadd said:

 

I wish it was patter. How's the house hunting in Dumfries? A true Krankie does not in the shires of Ingerlun. 

Even tragicker (sic) "patter"

[NANOJAMBO]

6 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

I wish it was patter. How's the house hunting in Dumfries? A true Krankie does not in the shires of Ingerlun. 

At least make an effort to post something intelligible .

 

[JackLadd]

1 minute ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Even tragicker (sic) "patter"

 

Ah, Constance Von Carthorse with his colloquial wordings. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Ah, Constance Von Carthorse with his colloquial wordings. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Konrad von Carstein

[NANOJAMBO]

18 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Even tragicker (sic) "patter"

😄

[Unknown user]

48 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Krankieworld: an in development tartan clown and deformed oddity theme park. 

 

The Krankie would a good name for the new currency in lieu of Krankieland meeting Brussels entry criteria. We can only guess at the Krankies to the pound rate. A Johnny Ball think of a number special.  

[The Mighty Thor]

Not checked in for a while.

 

Rise? ✔

Fall? ✖

Tears and snotters?  ✔

 

I'll pop back in a few months. 

[JackLadd]

19 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

At least make an effort to post something intelligible .

 

 

 

An outlaw of mine has a two bed static caravan going for 15k in Newton Stewart if you're keen.  Maybe you could pick up some cleaning work in the nearby hotels once the restrictions ease. Here to help. 

[Weakened Offender]

2 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

 

An outlaw of mine has a two bed static caravan going for 15k in Newton Stewart if you're keen.  Maybe you could pick up some cleaning work in the nearby hotels once the restrictions ease. Here to help. 

 

Banter. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

56 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

At least make an effort to post something intelligible .

 

Not a hard ask....

13 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

 

An outlaw of mine has a two bed static caravan going for 15k in Newton Stewart if you're keen.  Maybe you could pick up some cleaning work in the nearby hotels once the restrictions ease. Here to help. 

So much fail...