The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Konrad von Carstein]

Just now, weehammy said:

Ask Salmond how trustworthy he thinks the SG is. He once led it after all.

 

What does he have to do with this discussion? He'll be involved in the negotiations as much as you or I.

 

Wouldn't be you indulging in whatabootery because I highlighted the UK Gov's loose relationship with standards and morals would it?

[pablo]

Just now, Konrad von Carstein said:

They blooming well tried (or did) to renage an a deal that they signed withEurope did they not?

 

No trust is a poor starting point.

 

Remember this isn't the same as Brexit. It's to avoid a repeat of some of the mistakes.

 

The PM has responsibility for the entire UK and all of us in it. 

 

This is about establishing broad agreement on debt, currency, pensions, borders etc before voting leave. Otherwise we'll be arguing and falling out forevermore. 

 

Surely giving Scots as much clarity on how it could work is a good thing? Why would we want to repeat the mistakes of Brexit?

 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

Just now, pablo said:

 

Remember this isn't the same as Brexit. It's to avoid a repeat of some of the mistakes.

 

The PM has responsibility for the entire UK and all of us in it. 

 

This is about establishing broad agreement on debt, currency, pensions, borders etc before voting leave. Otherwise we'll be arguing and falling out forevermore. 

 

Surely giving Scots as much clarity on how it could work is a good thing? Why would we want to repeat the mistakes of Brexit?

 

 

@pablo I am not not meaning to rip your suggestion, which in an ideal world would be a grown up, equitable way to proceed,  sadly on at least one side we are dealing with man babies who demand tjat they get their own way....
Always.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Remember this isn't the same as Brexit. It's to avoid a repeat of some of the mistakes.

 

The PM has responsibility for the entire UK and all of us in it. 

 

This is about establishing broad agreement on debt, currency, pensions, borders etc before voting leave. Otherwise we'll be arguing and falling out forevermore. 

 

Surely giving Scots as much clarity on how it could work is a good thing? Why would we want to repeat the mistakes of Brexit?

 

 

What sort of mistakes? Brexit was essentially about trade, but the Tories conflated it with "taking back control". Independence is a different ball game.

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Remember this isn't the same as Brexit. It's to avoid a repeat of some of the mistakes.

 

The PM has responsibility for the entire UK and all of us in it. 

 

This is about establishing broad agreement on debt, currency, pensions, borders etc before voting leave. Otherwise we'll be arguing and falling out forevermore. 

 

Surely giving Scots as much clarity on how it could work is a good thing? Why would we want to repeat the mistakes of Brexit?

 

 

What makes you think they would agree to all this, they waited until the very last minute to do the Brexit deal 3.5 years after the vote and they didn’t see any problem with that or anything else regarding it. You are relying on the U.K. government to be competent and reasonable, I can’t see any proof of this anywhere, ever. 
 

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

@pablo I am not not meaning to rip your suggestion, which in an ideal world would be a grown up, equitable way to proceed,  sadly on at least one side we are dealing with man babies who demand tjat they get their own way....
Always.

Spot on. 

[pablo]

Just now, Boris said:

What sort of mistakes? Brexit was essentially about trade, but the Tories conflated it with "taking back control". Independence is a different ball game.

 

The mistake was entering a negotiation after making the decision. The mistake was allowing the vote to happen before anyone knew what it really meant.

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, weehammy said:

Where would we all be without your entirely objective ‘highlighting’?

😇

 

 

It appears that my post was correct then.  Or will you be able to provide evidnce of the WM govs new found love of fairness and probity?

[Ulysses]

9 hours ago, Spellczech said:

That was my post clarifying to Ulysses...

 

I wasn't saying the Norwegian Welfare state only came about due to Oil Fund having the capacity to afford it, I was saying that Norwegians didn't have the debt at time the oil came on tap, so were able to save the oil money. Norwegians pay very high taxes to afford their welfare state.

 

By contrast, the UK has always spent more than it gathered in taxes, and even if the Scottish Govt somehow managed to tear up the contracts and grab a big slice of future oil revenues, they would have to pay off our share of the National debt before they could consider a Norwegian style state fund and in the meantime taxes would have to shoot up to pay for all the freebies for old, young and lazy...

 

I don't think Independence is a totally hopeless dream, I just think the SNP have to be honest and admit that there would be at least a few generations, and I mean real generations, not those 7 year ones - of real economic pain... (but then that is the real reason they fancy jumping out of one Union into another - they hope the EU will help us through the economic hardship)

 

You were saying that having an oil fund and having a welfare state of generous proportions was "having your cake and eating it".  That was earnest, but it was wrong.  You can.  Norway can and does, and is the proof that it can be done.  Norway has a high level of hydrocarbon reserves, high welfare rates, high taxes, high levels of State saving, moderate levels of public debt, high levels of income equality, and high net personal incomes.  Scotland is part of a country with moderately high hydrocarbon reserves, mediocre welfare rates, moderate taxes, low levels of State saving, high levels of public debt, poor levels of income equality, and moderate net personal incomes.

 

Scotland itself doesn't have all those negatives.  It is part of a bigger system that has all those negatives.  Your argument is that Scotland shouldn't or can't leave its negative and unsustainable surroundings because things have already gotten so bad that it just has to stay, or maybe things would get even more shit.  That's just not a convincing argument, whether politically, economically or philosophically.  It is nothing better than the politics of resignation and pointlessness.

 

An independent Scotland would not end up with a sovereign wealth fund the size of Norway's, and it would take longer to get to a respectable level.  But it would be in a better position than it is today.  Who knows if Scotland could tackle the mediocre welfare rates, moderate taxes, low levels of State saving, high levels of public debt, poor levels of income equality, and moderate net personal incomes?  Maybe Scotland could do that.  Maybe Scotland could do that but at the price of not having a sovereign wealth fund.  Maybe Scotland could only do some of that list, or not achieve any of those things at all.  But it could try, instead of being locked into and dependent on a system that won't try.

[pablo]

5 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

@pablo I am not not meaning to rip your suggestion, which in an ideal world would be a grown up, equitable way to proceed,  sadly on at least one side we are dealing with man babies who demand tjat they get their own way....
Always.

 

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

What makes you think they would agree to all this, they waited until the very last minute to do the Brexit deal 3.5 years after the vote and they didn’t see any problem with that or anything else regarding it. You are relying on the U.K. government to be competent and reasonable, I can’t see any proof of this anywhere, ever. 
 

 

I'll tell you why I would do it Gents . And I'm not expecting either of you to agree with me one iota.

 

I think it's a way to protect and save the Union. Rather than saying no, or engaging in the ridiculous scraps between the UK and the SG. Just lay the whole thing out before having the vote.

 

If it proves we are"better together" then I expect support for Independence to collapse to the point Remain would win. And if it proves everything you belive it will, Leave will win easily and we can move on.

 

Five more years of phoney bickering about the constitution is doing nobody any good. Expect the lifestyle and bank balances of limited underachieving MSPs and MPs obviously. 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, pablo said:

 

The mistake was entering a negotiation after making the decision. The mistake was allowing the vote to happen before anyone knew what it really meant.

If people didn’t know what it meant before he said that a vote for Conservative to “get brexit done” gave him carte blanche to act like a child at the negotiations apparently then there’s no hope. I started from a Leave point of view and even by the vote I’d almost done a complete 180. 
The U.K. govt refused point blank to enter any talks whatsoever during last indyref. They want you confused and afraid of what might happen. If they clear up any bones of contention well you might think it’s ok and vote for it, they can’t have that. The SNP or whoever can put out any sort of white paper they want about the future but ultimately it’s meaningless.

[Ulysses]

28 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

But mutually agreed would mean that the White Paper would need to be signed off by the Scottish Government too. That's what would be put forward by the SG for Scotland to vote on.

 

England's conservative nationalists could not be trusted to keep to their agreements with us.  We have more leverage over them than Scotland does, and leverage is the only way to keep them from misbehaving. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

I'll tell you why I would do it Gents . And I'm not expecting either of you to agree with me one iota.

 

I think it's a way to protect and save the Union. Rather than saying no, or engaging in the ridiculous scraps between the UK and the SG. Just lay the whole thing out before having the vote.

 

If it proves we are"better together" then I expect support for Independence to collapse to the point Remain would win. And if it proves everything you belive it will, Leave will win easily and we can move on.

 

Five more years of phoney bickering about the constitution is doing nobody any good. Expect the lifestyle and bank balances of limited underachieving MSPs and MPs obviously. 

 

 

Surely the fact that the polls show a 50/50 split show that something isn't right with the way our union of equals is set up,  for me we're taken for granted,  our (your) parliamentary representatives are belittled and ignored.

The union in its current form has to change and change radically if it is to persevere.

[Don Dan]

@Konrad von Carstein @Boab @pablo
The reputation of the Westminster Government is drain down the gurgler. We, Scotland, The Scottish Government needs to be squeaky clean when it comes to negotiations and presenting our case. The world is watching. We need to try and avoid that enquiry situation we had before the end of the last parliament, it was certainly riveting for the media (and me) and other similar situations. We need to be better than than the lying scum down in Westminster with their dodgy deals and down right crookedness. 
We need to do our homework on how we see a future independent Scotland and provide valid reasons to back this vision up. We need Scotland to buy into the idea and plan and more importantly other interested parties like other countries we would trade with and unbelievably Westminster. 
My opinion is being a member of the EU is our best way forward as the market is huge. Any lose from rUK would be more than compensated by trade away from them. It’s a no brainier for me. 
There will be hurdles but I’m sure they can be overcome if people adopt a empathetic attitude. 

[Don Dan]

18 minutes ago, Boris said:

What sort of mistakes? Brexit was essentially about trade, but the Tories conflated it with "taking back control". Independence is a different ball game.

Isn’t independence taking back control or if you want taking control of our own destiny?

[Pasquale for King]

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

I'll tell you why I would do it Gents . And I'm not expecting either of you to agree with me one iota.

 

I think it's a way to protect and save the Union. Rather than saying no, or engaging in the ridiculous scraps between the UK and the SG. Just lay the whole thing out before having the vote.

 

If it proves we are"better together" then I expect support for Independence to collapse to the point Remain would win. And if it proves everything you belive it will, Leave will win easily and we can move on.

 

Five more years of phoney bickering about the constitution is doing nobody any good. Expect the lifestyle and bank balances of limited underachieving MSPs and MPs obviously. 

 

 

I said earlier on another thread all the facts you are looking for are out there, experts have done the work comparing the union and independence. Anyone who has checked the facts can see that independence is better for Scotland and completely normal for a country to do. 
I think you’re hoping that the UK government would attempt this but it’s extremely unlikely because it wouldn’t look good, imagine if they had done it with Brexit? The only hope for the Unionists is to stop another referendum because there’s nothing left to win one with. 

[Boris]

17 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

 

I'll tell you why I would do it Gents . And I'm not expecting either of you to agree with me one iota.

 

I think it's a way to protect and save the Union. Rather than saying no, or engaging in the ridiculous scraps between the UK and the SG. Just lay the whole thing out before having the vote.

 

If it proves we are"better together" then I expect support for Independence to collapse to the point Remain would win. And if it proves everything you belive it will, Leave will win easily and we can move on.

 

Five more years of phoney bickering about the constitution is doing nobody any good. Expect the lifestyle and bank balances of limited underachieving MSPs and MPs obviously. 

 

 

That perhaps sorts the accounting, but it does little to remedy the democratic deficit in this union of "equals". Maybe I'm the only one, but that's the main reason I'll back indy. Westminster is a busted flush as a political system. IMO.

[Malinga the Swinga]

12 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

@Konrad von Carstein @Boab @pablo
My opinion is being a member of the EU is our best way forward as the market is huge. Any lose from rUK would be more than compensated by trade away from them. It’s a no brainier for me. 
There will be hurdles but I’m sure they can be overcome if people adopt a empathetic attitude. 

So give up a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland and immediately jump into union with EU. 

What makes you think a union run entirely for the benefit of Germany and France would be good for us? 

Interested in why you think we can trust EU, who in last few years, have hardly covered themselves in glory. Shafted Greece, shafted citizens over Covid vaccination programme, and would hold dominance over every faccet of negotiating. NS would cave to whatever demands made of her, such is her desperation to re-enter EU. 

I wanted to stay in, but now we're out, why the manic desire to jump straight back in? 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

That perhaps sorts the accounting, but it does little to remedy the democratic deficit in this union of "equals". Maybe I'm the only one, but that's the main reason I'll back indy. Westminster is a busted flush as a political system. IMO.

Hear! Hear! Well said.

[pablo]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

That perhaps sorts the accounting, but it does little to remedy the democratic deficit in this union of "equals". Maybe I'm the only one, but that's the main reason I'll back indy. Westminster is a busted flush as a political system. IMO.

 

No, I think that's laudable actually. It will be of little comfort to most though if Project Fear was right all along. So all I'm saying, is let's open the books and see. No doubt as with everything, we'll be somewhere in the middle of there, and the SG White Paper, Scotland's Future.

 

But it's got to be better than going round in circles. Get a bit of clarity on how it could work if we're doing it again. Both governments owe us that in my opinion. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

No, I think that's laudable actually. It will be of little comfort to most though if Project Fear was right all along. So all I'm saying, is let's open the books and see. No doubt as with everything, we'll be somewhere in the middle of there, and the SG White Paper, Scotland's Future.

 

But it's got to be better than going round in circles. Get a bit of clarity on how it could work if we're doing it again. Both governments owe us that in my opinion. 

Last sentence,  politicians,  all over, seem to have forgotten who they work for and that they are meant to act for the electorate and country,  not themselves and party.

[Boris]

19 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Isn’t independence taking back control or if you want taking control of our own destiny?

Scotland becoming independent and the UK leaving the EU are different things. Don't remember the UK asking the EU for permission, for example. 

Any control that needed taken back was traded away by previous UK govts and could be taken back at any time.

I'd have had greater respect for Brexiteers and bought into the control vibe had the EU treated the UK as the UK treats Scotland.

 

[Boris]

10 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

No, I think that's laudable actually. It will be of little comfort to most though if Project Fear was right all along. So all I'm saying, is let's open the books and see. No doubt as with everything, we'll be somewhere in the middle of there, and the SG White Paper, Scotland's Future.

 

But it's got to be better than going round in circles. Get a bit of clarity on how it could work if we're doing it again. Both governments owe us that in my opinion. 

Can't argue with that sentiment.

[Don Dan]

9 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

So give up a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland and immediately jump into union with EU. 

What makes you think a union run entirely for the benefit of Germany and France would be good for us? 

Interested in why you think we can trust EU, who in last few years, have hardly covered themselves in glory. Shafted Greece, shafted citizens over Covid vaccination programme, and would hold dominance over every faccet of negotiating. NS would cave to whatever demands made of her, such is her desperation to re-enter EU. 

I wanted to stay in, but now we're out, why the manic desire to jump straight back in? 

 

It does seem daft to jump from one union to another but throughout this pandemic I’ve been watch how the EU operates and a lot of the things we were told by Leave turned out to be bollocks.

Every country in the union was able to operate their own borders to suit the level of covid they were encountering. An individual country could shut their borders, order there own vaccine to name but a few autonomous decisions they could take. Yes as a member there are certain minimum rules you have to adhere to but generally they were of benefit to you. It’s not perfect but very few unions are. I’m my opinion the EU offers more than the UK does. 
 

[Unknown user]

38 minutes ago, Boris said:

That perhaps sorts the accounting, but it does little to remedy the democratic deficit in this union of "equals". Maybe I'm the only one, but that's the main reason I'll back indy. Westminster is a busted flush as a political system. IMO.

Well exactly

[Don Dan]

11 minutes ago, Boris said:

Don't remember the UK asking the EU for permission, for example

In that respect you are correct. The mantra however was “let’s take control of our borders etc” Boris and Farage rammed that down our throats all through the campaign. We were duped by xenophobic nutcases one of whom has disappeared of the planet and the other Buffon is left in charge along with his dodgy deals and lying ways. The clown didn’t even understand his own trade deal he sign off! 
 

Earlier on I suggest we should have a credible plan when we officially get round to ask for another referendum. The UK didn’t have a plan not to mention a back up plan other than WTO as a backstop. We (the UK) careered headlong into the unknown with no credible ideas what would transpire. We had delusions of grandeur instead we’ve opened Pandora’s Box. 
 

Sorry I’ve had a couple of nice red wines so I hope I’ve made sense. 🍷🍷

[Unknown user]

32 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Last sentence,  politicians,  all over, seem to have forgotten who they work for and that they are meant to act for the electorate and country,  not themselves and party.

People should not fear their governments, governments should fear their people.

[Boris]

38 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

So give up a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland and immediately jump into union with EU. 

What makes you think a union run entirely for the benefit of Germany and France would be good for us? 

Interested in why you think we can trust EU, who in last few years, have hardly covered themselves in glory. Shafted Greece, shafted citizens over Covid vaccination programme, and would hold dominance over every faccet of negotiating. NS would cave to whatever demands made of her, such is her desperation to re-enter EU. 

I wanted to stay in, but now we're out, why the manic desire to jump straight back in? 

 

Maybe the point is that we could if we wanted to. And leave if we wanted to?

Remind me of Scotland's veto in our current union?

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Boy Daniel said:

In that respect you are correct. The mantra however was “let’s take control of our borders etc” Boris and Farage rammed that down our throats all through the campaign. We were duped by xenophobic nutcases one of whom has disappeared of the planet and the other Buffon is left in charge along with his dodgy deals and lying ways. The clown didn’t even understand his own trade deal he sign off! 
 

Earlier on I suggest we should have a credible plan when we officially get round to ask for another referendum. The UK didn’t have a plan not to mention a back up plan other than WTO as a backstop. We (the UK) careered headlong into the unknown with no credible ideas what would transpire. We had delusions of grandeur instead we’ve opened Pandora’s Box. 
 

Sorry I’ve had a couple of nice red wines so I hope I’ve made sense. 🍷🍷

Yeah, all good man!

 

Enjoy the vino!

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

So give up a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland and immediately jump into union with EU. 

What makes you think a union run entirely for the benefit of Germany and France would be good for us? 

Interested in why you think we can trust EU, who in last few years, have hardly covered themselves in glory. Shafted Greece, shafted citizens over Covid vaccination programme, and would hold dominance over every faccet of negotiating. NS would cave to whatever demands made of her, such is her desperation to re-enter EU. 

I wanted to stay in, but now we're out, why the manic desire to jump straight back in? 

 

 

You need to read outside the British propaganda bubble.

 

The EU, ECB and IMF combined to save Greece from complete implosion and collapse, both economically and socially.  Greece was on the point of literally having no means of exchange for goods within its borders, and a total operational failure of its healthcare systems.  The EU/ECB/IMF lent Greece the money - over €70,000 for each household in Greece - that prevented the country from collapsing.  In return, they insisted that Greece make reforms to its public finances to ensure that it was able to service the loans and not collapse again.  The money was lent at heavily-discounted rates of interest, and since 2017 the EU, ECB and IMF have quietly and consistently help the Greeks to re-negotiate the debt to defer maturity dates and take advantage of lowered interest rates.  That's what partners and friends do, just as they did for Portugal and for Ireland.

 

The EU didn't shaft citizens over Covid-19 vaccinations.  The EU's only mistake was in sticking to its principles on the free movement of vaccines, as a result of which we exported vaccines to prop up Britain's programme without any reciprocation.  That was naive, but it was honourable.  Without it, the UK would have been at the same level as the EU in terms of vaccine rollout, and possibly behind.  Put simply, the UK did well on vaccines, but only because of our assistance.  And as for the final outcome of our respective vaccination programmes, let's take the advice of Jacques Delors, who said that the time to count the cow dung is when the fair is over.  Let's see where we all are in a few weeks from now.

 

Argue against independence, or for it if that's your thing, but either way try to do it from an informed position.

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Boy Daniel said:

It does seem daft to jump from one union to another but throughout this pandemic I’ve been watch how the EU operates and a lot of the things we were told by Leave turned out to be bollocks.

Every country in the union was able to operate their own borders to suit the level of covid they were encountering. An individual country could shut their borders, order there own vaccine to name but a few autonomous decisions they could take. Yes as a member there are certain minimum rules you have to adhere to but generally they were of benefit to you. It’s not perfect but very few unions are. I’m my opinion the EU offers more than the UK does. 
 

 

Covid-19: Ireland could have gone it alone and deviated from the EU programme, but we would never have achieved the programme we have without the economic and political muscle of the Germans (and to a lesser extent the other big countries).  We got our doses at a fraction of the cost of the Americans and the British.  The risk of any damage from vaccines is with the pharmaceutical companies and not the taxpayer, which is not the case in the US and the UK.  And we don't share the personal data of vaccine recipients with the pharmaceutical firms, which puts us in a better position than the US (I don't know the UK position for certain).

 

As for progress, we're behind the UK on numbers, but that's only because of the EU's essentially honourable position of allowing large numbers of EU-made vaccinations to be exported to the UK, Canada, Mexico and Japan, as well as to developing countries.  About 35% of the population here have had one shot, and 15% are fully vaccinated.  But because we had so many delivery problems with AstraZeneca, we've shifted over to Pfizer/BioNTech, with Moderna and Janssen just starting to come on stream, so fewer of us will be waiting 3 months to be fully vaccinated.

 

Other (bigger) countries could play the game differently to us, but tagging ourselves to the EU programme has worked for us.  There were no deaths registered in England yesterday; there were none on this island either, and our economy is starting to reopen.

[manaliveits105]

10 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

So give up a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland and immediately jump into union with EU. 

What makes you think a union run entirely for the benefit of Germany and France would be good for us? 

Interested in why you think we can trust EU, who in last few years, have hardly covered themselves in glory. Shafted Greece, shafted citizens over Covid vaccination programme, and would hold dominance over every faccet of negotiating. NS would cave to whatever demands made of her, such is her desperation to re-enter EU. 

I wanted to stay in, but now we're out, why the manic desire to jump straight back in? 

 

[Ron Burgundy]

7 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

You need to read outside the British propaganda bubble.

 

The EU, ECB and IMF combined to save Greece from complete implosion and collapse, both economically and socially.  Greece was on the point of literally having no means of exchange for goods within its borders, and a total operational failure of its healthcare systems.  The EU/ECB/IMF lent Greece the money - over €70,000 for each household in Greece - that prevented the country from collapsing.  In return, they insisted that Greece make reforms to its public finances to ensure that it was able to service the loans and not collapse again.  The money was lent at heavily-discounted rates of interest, and since 2017 the EU, ECB and IMF have quietly and consistently help the Greeks to re-negotiate the debt to defer maturity dates and take advantage of lowered interest rates.  That's what partners and friends do, just as they did for Portugal and for Ireland.

 

The EU didn't shaft citizens over Covid-19 vaccinations.  The EU's only mistake was in sticking to its principles on the free movement of vaccines, as a result of which we exported vaccines to prop up Britain's programme without any reciprocation.  That was naive, but it was honourable.  Without it, the UK would have been at the same level as the EU in terms of vaccine rollout, and possibly behind.  Put simply, the UK did well on vaccines, but only because of our assistance.  And as for the final outcome of our respective vaccination programmes, let's take the advice of Jacques Delors, who said that the time to count the cow dung is when the fair is over.  Let's see where we all are in a few weeks from now.

 

Argue against independence, or for it if that's your thing, but either way try to do it from an informed position.

I'm afraid neither the SNP or Westminster make that easy. Both spout lies and misinformation.

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 hours ago, Boris said:

That perhaps sorts the accounting, but it does little to remedy the democratic deficit in this union of "equals". Maybe I'm the only one, but that's the main reason I'll back indy. Westminster is a busted flush as a political system. IMO.

[John Findlay]

8 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

You need to read outside the British propaganda bubble.

 

The EU, ECB and IMF combined to save Greece from complete implosion and collapse, both economically and socially.  Greece was on the point of literally having no means of exchange for goods within its borders, and a total operational failure of its healthcare systems.  The EU/ECB/IMF lent Greece the money - over €70,000 for each household in Greece - that prevented the country from collapsing.  In return, they insisted that Greece make reforms to its public finances to ensure that it was able to service the loans and not collapse again.  The money was lent at heavily-discounted rates of interest, and since 2017 the EU, ECB and IMF have quietly and consistently help the Greeks to re-negotiate the debt to defer maturity dates and take advantage of lowered interest rates.  That's what partners and friends do, just as they did for Portugal and for Ireland.

 

The EU didn't shaft citizens over Covid-19 vaccinations.  The EU's only mistake was in sticking to its principles on the free movement of vaccines, as a result of which we exported vaccines to prop up Britain's programme without any reciprocation.  That was naive, but it was honourable.  Without it, the UK would have been at the same level as the EU in terms of vaccine rollout, and possibly behind.  Put simply, the UK did well on vaccines, but only because of our assistance.  And as for the final outcome of our respective vaccination programmes, let's take the advice of Jacques Delors, who said that the time to count the cow dung is when the fair is over.  Let's see where we all are in a few weeks from now.

 

Argue against independence, or for it if that's your thing, but either way try to do it from an informed position.

Im old enough to remember when the IMF bailed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland out.

[Malinga the Swinga]

8 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

You need to read outside the British propaganda bubble.

 

The EU, ECB and IMF combined to save Greece from complete implosion and collapse, both economically and socially.  Greece was on the point of literally having no means of exchange for goods within its borders, and a total operational failure of its healthcare systems.  The EU/ECB/IMF lent Greece the money - over €70,000 for each household in Greece - that prevented the country from collapsing.  In return, they insisted that Greece make reforms to its public finances to ensure that it was able to service the loans and not collapse again.  The money was lent at heavily-discounted rates of interest, and since 2017 the EU, ECB and IMF have quietly and consistently help the Greeks to re-negotiate the debt to defer maturity dates and take advantage of lowered interest rates.  That's what partners and friends do, just as they did for Portugal and for Ireland.

 

The EU didn't shaft citizens over Covid-19 vaccinations.  The EU's only mistake was in sticking to its principles on the free movement of vaccines, as a result of which we exported vaccines to prop up Britain's programme without any reciprocation.  That was naive, but it was honourable.  Without it, the UK would have been at the same level as the EU in terms of vaccine rollout, and possibly behind.  Put simply, the UK did well on vaccines, but only because of our assistance.  And as for the final outcome of our respective vaccination programmes, let's take the advice of Jacques Delors, who said that the time to count the cow dung is when the fair is over.  Let's see where we all are in a few weeks from now.

 

Argue against independence, or for it if that's your thing, but either way try to do it from an informed position.

. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Malinga the Swinga

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I'm afraid neither the SNP or Westminster make that easy. Both spout lies and misinformation.

As do all politicians, apart from those in EU apparently. 

They are friends and partners, act honourably and are bastions of morality. 

 

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

36 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Im old enough to remember when the IMF bailed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland out.

Yep, remember that. 

[manaliveits105]

9 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

As do all politicians, apart from those in EU apparently. 

They are friends and partners, act honourably and are bastions of morality. 

 

 

Well rid.

[Maroon Sailor]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

You need to read outside the British propaganda bubble.

 

The EU, ECB and IMF combined to save Greece from complete implosion and collapse, both economically and socially.  Greece was on the point of literally having no means of exchange for goods within its borders, and a total operational failure of its healthcare systems.  The EU/ECB/IMF lent Greece the money - over €70,000 for each household in Greece - that prevented the country from collapsing.  In return, they insisted that Greece make reforms to its public finances to ensure that it was able to service the loans and not collapse again.  The money was lent at heavily-discounted rates of interest, and since 2017 the EU, ECB and IMF have quietly and consistently help the Greeks to re-negotiate the debt to defer maturity dates and take advantage of lowered interest rates.  That's what partners and friends do, just as they did for Portugal and for Ireland.

 

The EU didn't shaft citizens over Covid-19 vaccinations.  The EU's only mistake was in sticking to its principles on the free movement of vaccines, as a result of which we exported vaccines to prop up Britain's programme without any reciprocation.  That was naive, but it was honourable.  Without it, the UK would have been at the same level as the EU in terms of vaccine rollout, and possibly behind.  Put simply, the UK did well on vaccines, but only because of our assistance.  And as for the final outcome of our respective vaccination programmes, let's take the advice of Jacques Delors, who said that the time to count the cow dung is when the fair is over.  Let's see where we all are in a few weeks from now.

 

Argue against independence, or for it if that's your thing, but either way try to do it from an informed position.

 

Why do you need to do that ?

 

Do you believe eveything you read / only what you want to believe ?

 

You seem to have very strong opinions about the Union but are not part of it. Why is that ?

[Cade]

SNP losing Regional List Share and Regional List Seats, the big bloody losers.

[Unknown user]

37 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Why do you need to do that ?

 

Do you believe eveything you read / only what you want to believe ?

 

You seem to have very strong opinions about the Union but are not part of it. Why is that ?

 

What, are you asking why you need to avoid arguing from a position of ignorance?

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Smithee

[Don Dan]

Craig Murray: Blogger and former diplomat sentenced to eight months in jail for contempt of court relating to Alex Salmond trial!

 

Ooft. 

[Mysterion]

12 minutes ago, Cade said:

SNP losing Regional List Share and Regional List Seats, the big bloody losers.

Thanks for sharing this. 

 

Great way of visualising the vote share. 

It really shows how Proportional Representation helps to get a wide variety of opinions. 

 

I am of the opinion that a coalition of some form is better for the country and allows for a better variety of ideas. I am not anti SNP but i think political parties need to be kept in check. 

[Mysterion]

13 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Craig Murray: Blogger and former diplomat sentenced to eight months in jail for contempt of court relating to Alex Salmond trial!

 

Ooft. 

 

He was warned and basically gave the courts the finger with his actions. 

Sends a clear message like they did down South with Yaxley Lennon.

[Malinga the Swinga]

11 minutes ago, Boy Daniel said:

Craig Murray: Blogger and former diplomat sentenced to eight months in jail for contempt of court relating to Alex Salmond trial!

 

Ooft. 

Sore one for him, and pretty ridiculous. The Scottish elite closing ranks over this trial and trying to cover its tracks as best they can. Lying, false statements, redacting evidence, refusing to co-operate with defence and simply forgetting events is something you would expect in Russia, not Scotland. 

 

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Sore one for him, and pretty ridiculous. The Scottish elite closing ranks over this trial and trying to cover its tracks as best they can. Lying, false statements, redacting evidence, refusing to co-operate with defence and simply forgetting events is something you would expect in Russia, not Scotland. 

 

 

He got the jail for blatant contempt of court.

[Maroon Sailor]

45 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

What, are you asking why you need to avoid arguing from a position of ignorance?

 

 

Why argue ?

 

You either believe in something or you don't.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Maroon Sailor

[Malinga the Swinga]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

He got the jail for blatant contempt of court.

Whilst those who were proven to have lied in court are protected by the same system that saw him jailed.

Meanwhile anti AS bloggers and reporters were allowed, and in some cases encouraged to broadcast and leak the prosecution case into public eye, all under the safe protection of Scottish judiciary. 

Seems fair. 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Why argue ?

 

You either believe in something or you don't.

 

Fair enough, and you'll carry the credibility that your stance commands.