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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

It would be fascinating to know how many people actually want independence vs they have merely been offered a truck load of free stuff to vote SNP so have jumped on the bandwagon that labour used to pander to.

Sturgeon is now very much a Farage type figure, pedalling vaguely xenophobic separatist nonsense swapping “England” for Westminster  in her rhetoric.

Land of milk and honey.

Better alone , without the welsh and Irish .

Might as well have a Scottish bus with their uncosted bribes plastered on it driving about.

Few/ no solid facts , but as we saw with brexit people don’t want the facts , they want the myth- loads of money coming from somewhere .”better alone”.

when the world needs to come together , some are trying to pull it apart.

Simplistic, nationalist fantasies . Try working WITH the English welsh and Irish for a better future for all on this island.


Here he comes again, Doctor "I worked hard and am successful so why can't those impoverished kids on council sink estates with a single stressed out parent, attending a rotten school, with next to no hope do likewise" Jambo.

Perish the ****ing thought that a government is actually meant to improve the lot of the populace of the country they administer. We've tried working with the English, but since they routinely vote Tory despite their endemic corruption, don't give a flying **** about food banks, WMDs or severe poverty in a supposedly rich country, as long as they can aspire to be part of the elite and save a couple of pence off their tax bills. HOW ON EARTH do you propose we make meaningful change to help the poor and downtrodden? 

None of this is a "truck load of free stuff" - its stuff paid for by OUR tax money. Dunno about you, but I'd rather my taxes helped kids do better at school by not going hungry, reduced reliance on foodbanks etc than went as part of a bung to Hancock's sister or Dido ****ing Harding. I have no issues with free prescriptions since many in this country suffer disproportionately from poor health - something long linked to poverty. It is cheaper to provide free prescriptions than it is to administer the scheme to assess qualifying for free medicines. Its also the mark of a civilised country which cares for its people - contrast with shooting victims in the US pleading with people not to call an ambulance because they can't afford to pay for it, if they survive. 

Fascinating indeed, to see a demonstration of a  complete lack of empathy allied to a disproportionate sense of superiority. 

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59 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

She can rattle of facts and figures from the top of her head to back up her arguments. 

 


Unless it’s during a Holyrood inquiry. 

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Brighton Jambo
Brighton Jambo
17 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


Here he comes again, Doctor "I worked hard and am successful so why can't those impoverished kids on council sink estates with a single stressed out parent, attending a rotten school, with next to no hope do likewise" Jambo.

Perish the ****ing thought that a government is actually meant to improve the lot of the populace of the country they administer. We've tried working with the English, but since they routinely vote Tory despite their endemic corruption, don't give a flying **** about food banks, WMDs or severe poverty in a supposedly rich country, as long as they can aspire to be part of the elite and save a couple of pence off their tax bills. HOW ON EARTH do you propose we make meaningful change to help the poor and downtrodden? 

None of this is a "truck load of free stuff" - its stuff paid for by OUR tax money. Dunno about you, but I'd rather my taxes helped kids do better at school by not going hungry, reduced reliance on foodbanks etc than went as part of a bung to Hancock's sister or Dido ****ing Harding. I have no issues with free prescriptions since many in this country suffer disproportionately from poor health - something long linked to poverty. It is cheaper to provide free prescriptions than it is to administer the scheme to assess qualifying for free medicines. Its also the mark of a civilised country which cares for its people - contrast with shooting victims in the US pleading with people not to call an ambulance because they can't afford to pay for it, if they survive. 

Fascinating indeed, to see a demonstration of a  complete lack of empathy allied to a disproportionate sense of superiority. 

Where you argument totally falls down is that in the areas that are fully devolved such as education, performance is going backwards under the SNP.  If they had made a real success of education, such as closing the attainment gap improving our international ratings, then that would be a platform for saying imagine what we could do with areas not devolved.

 

Failures in education, health, intervention in failing businesses, infrastructure projects etc all sit fully with the SNP and failings cannot be blamed elsewhere no matter how much it’s easy to try and do so. 
 

There’s two routes to independence:

 

1.  Make a real positive difference to Scotland with the devolved powers you have and that is your platform to say give us everything and imagine what we could do.

 

2. Stoke enough grievance with WM by blaming all Scotland’s problems on them to make people believe that breaking away is the only option.

 

The SNP didn’t have the competence or capability for option 1 so have defaulted to option 2.  And people are getting tired of it as recent polls indicate.  

Edited by Brighton Jambo
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Enzo Chiefo
3 hours ago, Smithee said:

This thread's about the SNP, I'm talking about an opinion you agreed with on the SNP, a really really stupid one.

How's that a tangent?

You quoted my post about the hyperbolic language used by SNP ministers regarding the UKs vaccine programme.  Will they admit that they horrendously misjudged that? Lives would certainly have been lost had we gone in with the EU. Do you expect the SNP to acknowledge that fact?  I didn't mention independence in the post you quoted,  therefore you are going off at a tangent

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Smithee
3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You quoted my post about the hyperbolic language used by SNP ministers regarding the UKs vaccine programme.  Will they admit that they horrendously misjudged that? Lives would certainly have been lost had we gone in with the EU. Do you expect the SNP to acknowledge that fact?  I didn't mention independence in the post you quoted,  therefore you are going off at a tangent

I'd be distancing myself from it too TBF

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Enzo Chiefo
3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I'd be distancing myself from it too TBF

You're having a mare. But do you think the SNP regret their vaccine stance and childish language? Hope someone asks Sturgeon's empty chair on QT tonight 😂

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38 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Where you argument totally falls down is that in the areas that are fully devolved such as education, performance is going backwards under the SNP.  If they had made a real success of education, such as closing the attainment gap improving our international ratings, then that would be a platform for saying imagine what we could do with areas not devolved.

 

Failures in education, health, intervention in failing businesses, infrastructure projects etc all sit fully with the SNP and failings cannot be blamed elsewhere no matter how much it’s easy to try and do so. 
 

There’s two routes to independence:

 

1.  Make a real positive difference to Scotland with the devolved powers you have and that is your platform to say give us everything and imagine what we could do.

 

2. Stoke enough grievance with WM by blaming all Scotland’s problems on them to make people believe that breaking away is the only option.

 

The SNP didn’t have the competence or capability for option 1 so have defaulted to option 2.  And people are getting tired of it as recent polls indicate.  


I wasn't arguing about the SNP viz-a-viz Westminster per se, more about Doctor Jambo's ridiculous stance on "truckloads of free stuff".

Nor do I blame all our ills on Westminster or, indeed, governance. It is far more complex than that.    

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1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

She can rattle of facts and figures from the top of her head to back up her arguments. 

 

 

Aye, ok then.

 

 

 

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I was talking to a small business owner this morning who had been on a zoom type call with "The Economist" about the potential impact of Scexit on his long established family business

 

His view.....it would be disastrous.  

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Governor Tarkin
1 minute ago, Candy said:

I was talking to a small business owner this morning who had been on a zoom type call with "The Economist" about the potential impact of Scexit on his long established family business

 

His view.....it would be disastrous.  

 

I prefer Joxit. 

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manaliveits105
1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

oh my my my would you believe it - the good people of Scotland know the score - GLORIOUS .

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Smithee
37 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You're having a mare. But do you think the SNP regret their vaccine stance and childish language? Hope someone asks Sturgeon's empty chair on QT tonight 😂

I'm having a mare? No offence mate but you're not exactly known for your sense of awareness with these things!

 

I don't know, I don't care, I'm not an snp supporter, I'm not a fan of sturgeon.

But I can separate the party from the cause I support as well as pointing out absolute nonsense like the SNP should move away from independence.

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Pans Jambo
1 hour ago, Gizmo said:


Here he comes again, Doctor "I worked hard and am successful so why can't those impoverished kids on council sink estates with a single stressed out parent, attending a rotten school, with next to no hope do likewise" Jambo.

Perish the ****ing thought that a government is actually meant to improve the lot of the populace of the country they administer. We've tried working with the English, but since they routinely vote Tory despite their endemic corruption, don't give a flying **** about food banks, WMDs or severe poverty in a supposedly rich country, as long as they can aspire to be part of the elite and save a couple of pence off their tax bills. HOW ON EARTH do you propose we make meaningful change to help the poor and downtrodden? 

None of this is a "truck load of free stuff" - its stuff paid for by OUR tax money. Dunno about you, but I'd rather my taxes helped kids do better at school by not going hungry, reduced reliance on foodbanks etc than went as part of a bung to Hancock's sister or Dido ****ing Harding. I have no issues with free prescriptions since many in this country suffer disproportionately from poor health - something long linked to poverty. It is cheaper to provide free prescriptions than it is to administer the scheme to assess qualifying for free medicines. Its also the mark of a civilised country which cares for its people - contrast with shooting victims in the US pleading with people not to call an ambulance because they can't afford to pay for it, if they survive. 

Fascinating indeed, to see a demonstration of a  complete lack of empathy allied to a disproportionate sense of superiority. 

:clap: Take a bow. Brilliant post.

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doctor jambo
16 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

:clap: Take a bow. Brilliant post.

Sorry, puerile crap.

fwiw I believe in living wage, raised benefits and FREE housing and electricity for the poor.

Those dovetail with self reliance really well.

I do believe in job creation, drug legalisation  and a properly funded NHS.

Still, you bash on with your petty grudges and shoulder chips.

Not harbouring resentments, inverted snobbery, and deep sublimated inferiority complexes allows me to see past jingoistic politics, in ALL parties.

Im also not a Tory 

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Mars plastic
5 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

It would be fascinating to know how many people actually want independence vs they have merely been offered a truck load of free stuff to vote SNP so have jumped on the bandwagon that labour used to pander to.

Sturgeon is now very much a Farage type figure, pedalling vaguely xenophobic separatist nonsense swapping “England” for Westminster  in her rhetoric.

Land of milk and honey.

Better alone , without the welsh and Irish .

Might as well have a Scottish bus with their uncosted bribes plastered on it driving about.

Few/ no solid facts , but as we saw with brexit people don’t want the facts , they want the myth- loads of money coming from somewhere .”better alone”.

when the world needs to come together , some are trying to pull it apart.

Simplistic, nationalist fantasies . Try working WITH the English welsh and Irish for a better future for all on this island.

I can 100% get behind quality postage such as this. 

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Jeffros Furios
2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Sorry, puerile crap.

fwiw I believe in living wage, raised benefits and FREE housing and electricity for the poor.

Those dovetail with self reliance really well.

I do believe in job creation, drug legalisation  and a properly funded NHS.

Still, you bash on with your petty grudges and shoulder chips.

Not harbouring resentments, inverted snobbery, and deep sublimated inferiority complexes allows me to see past jingoistic politics, in ALL parties.

Im also not a Tory 

:greatpost:

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Mars plastic
3 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

oh my my my would you believe it - the good people of Scotland know the score - GLORIOUS .

The Dr. Alban guy on this thread will be raging at the traitors who voted to stay in that poll.

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Pans Jambo
5 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Sorry, puerile crap.

fwiw I believe in living wage, raised benefits and FREE housing and electricity for the poor.

Those dovetail with self reliance really well.

I do believe in job creation, drug legalisation  and a properly funded NHS.

Still, you bash on with your petty grudges and shoulder chips.

Not harbouring resentments, inverted snobbery, and deep sublimated inferiority complexes allows me to see past jingoistic politics, in ALL parties.

Im also not a Tory 

IDGAF

Take time away from here mate. Too many flumps talking the same robotic shite over and over and over and over and over and over again!

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6 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Sorry, puerile crap.

fwiw I believe in living wage, raised benefits and FREE housing and electricity for the poor.

Those dovetail with self reliance really well.

I do believe in job creation, drug legalisation  and a properly funded NHS.

Still, you bash on with your petty grudges and shoulder chips.

Not harbouring resentments, inverted snobbery, and deep sublimated inferiority complexes allows me to see past jingoistic politics, in ALL parties.

Im also not a Tory 


That's like the exact opposite of what you posted, is there something wrong with you?

 

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jack D and coke
1 hour ago, Gizmo said:


That's like the exact opposite of what you posted, is there something wrong with you?

 

I noticed as well. Complete 180 on the Rees Mogg type pish of recent week or so. 

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JackLadd

SHAMED Sturgeon sits in Bute House and ducks an election debate BBC QT on her own doorstep. Clearly above any voter scrutiny.

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We don't want a border in the the irsh sea but we want one with England as it will create jobs

 

 

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44 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I noticed as well. Complete 180 on the Rees Mogg type pish of recent week or so. 


Glad it wasn't just me. Imagine complaining about a "truckload of free stuff" then mandating free housing. You can't make this stuff up.

 

20 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

SHAMED Sturgeon sits in Bute House and ducks an election debate BBC QT on her own doorstep. Clearly above any voter scrutiny.


Poor wee Dougie Ross will have no-one except the travelling community to complain about tonight. Shame. 

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20 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

SHAMED Sturgeon sits in Bute House and ducks an election debate BBC QT on her own doorstep. Clearly above any voter scrutiny.

Ha ha - you know she doesn't live/stay in Bute House?

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JackLadd
1 minute ago, Gards said:

Ha ha - you know she doesn't live/stay in Bute House?

 

Das Boot Hoose. 

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jack D and coke
10 minutes ago, Gards said:

Ha ha - you know she doesn't live/stay in Bute House?

With the unhealthy obsession some of them have with her I’d very much doubt it eh 😂

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manaliveits105
7 hours ago, Gards said:

Ha ha - you know she doesn't live/stay in Bute House?

Disgrace to the position and insult to Edinburgh the Capital City

No class whatsoever 

Krankie Oot 

 

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Governor Tarkin
2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Disgrace to the position and insult to Edinburgh the Capital City

No class whatsoever 

 

 

 

^^^^ This.

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doctor jambo
11 hours ago, Gizmo said:


That's like the exact opposite of what you posted, is there something wrong with you?

 

Is it? Not sure what contradictions you see.

I suspect you are seeing what you want.

 

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theshed

I see the council workers have voted for strike action and refused 2%
 

Will this be because they see what the SNP are giving NHS workers and they want the same 🤷‍♀️
 

Any council workers on here?  

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20 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

As much as I don't like seeing NO in the lead, maybe you should look back at the previous polls by scotsman/times. They had no in the lead before too

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5 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Is it? Not sure what contradictions you see.

I suspect you are seeing what you want.

 


I wasn't the only one who noticed. 

Going from "truckloads of free stuff" to "free housing for the poor" - if you don't see the contradiction in those two statements, I can't help you. 

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coconut doug
5 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


I wasn't the only one who noticed. 

Going from "truckloads of free stuff" to "free housing for the poor" - if you don't see the contradiction in those two statements, I can't help you. 

 

Contradictions abound. Wants to properly fund the NHS but complains he is not getting paid enough despite GPs in the UK being second only to Germany in their pay.

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Boy Daniel

Article from the Times. 

Support for Scottish independence has fallen to its lowest level in more than a year, according to a new poll.

Research for The Times found that 47 per cent of voters want Scotland to be an independent country when undecided voters are excluded. That represents a dip of two percentage points compared with the last time YouGov asked the question in early March and is the smallest return for separation since December 2019.

With all voters included, 45 per cent said they would vote “no” and 39 per cent “yes” in a referendum asking if Scotland should become independent. Ten per cent were undecided, 4 per cent would not vote and 2 per cent refused to disclose their intentions.

There was also pushback against plans by Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond to quickly return focus to the constitution after next month’s Holyrood election. The first minister has said that she wants another referendum to take place in the first half of the parliament, so before the end of 2023, while Salmond, her predecessor who now leads the Alba Party, wants breakaway negotiations with Whitehall to begin immediately if a pro-independence majority of MSPs is secured.

Only 34 per cent of voters think there should be another ballot on Sturgeon’s timetable, with 49 per cent opposed.

There was greater support for a referendum being held in the next five years, with 44 per cent in favour, 40 per cent opposed and 16 per cent unsure.

The Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC) said yesterday that recovering from the pandemic should be the immediate priority for the incoming Scottish government.

Union leaders voted to back another independence referendum if a majority of MSPs are in favour of the move after the election but rejected the idea of a “supermajority”, which has been promoted by Salmond.

The annual STUC conference voted that it was for the Scottish parliament to decide when or if another referendum should be held.

Powers over the constitution are reserved to Westminster and Boris Johnson has said he will not countenance agreeing to another vote while he is prime minister.

Roz Foyer, the STUC general secretary, said: “Our vote today has reaffirmed the right of the Scottish people to self-determination and recognised that as the central democratic institution in Scotland, our parliament should have the power to determine whether and when to hold a second referendum.

“But we have also asserted that economic and social recovery is our priority and that radical policy is needed to achieve that in a way that redresses current imbalances of power and wealth. We will hold to account all parties of all political colours who take their eye off that ball.”

She added that any second vote would not have to be a straight choice between independence and remaining in the UK if a “meaningful third option is developed”.

A campaign, which includes Professor James Mitchell, of Edinburgh University, was launched last weekend to include “devo max” on any future ballot paper.

Such an option has been considered, including by Salmond, since before the 2014 independence referendum. It would mean that Scotland remains part of the UK but is given substantially more powers than are currently held at Holyrood, with only major portfolios such as defence and foreign affairs reserved to Westminster.

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doctor jambo
45 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


I wasn't the only one who noticed. 

Going from "truckloads of free stuff" to "free housing for the poor" - if you don't see the contradiction in those two statements, I can't help you. 

Housing is a basic human right , 

laptops and meals for well off kids and free childcare for the wealthy is not 

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6 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Housing is a basic human right , 

laptops and meals for well off kids and free childcare for the wealthy is not 


Food isn't a basic right?
Okaaay, then. 

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Governor Tarkin
14 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


Food isn't a basic right?
Okaaay, then. 

 

I'm sure that the doc' is sociopathic megalomaniac, Gizmo, but that isn't even close to what he means. 🤷‍♂️

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doctor jambo
47 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


Food isn't a basic right?
Okaaay, then. 

Free school meals for the children of barristers and dentists is not a good use of public monies .

Neither is free personal care for the wealthy .

The pot is finite.

Why spank money on things such as above when the social security blanket is so thin?

There is a difference between necessary and unnecessary spending - and COVID has shown how easily government wastes money.

Government needs to get smaller.

 

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Smithee
4 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Free school meals for the children of barristers and dentists is not a good use of public monies .

Neither is free personal care for the wealthy .

The pot is finite.

Why spank money on things such as above when the social security blanket is so thin?

There is a difference between necessary and unnecessary spending - and COVID has shown how easily government wastes money.

Government needs to get smaller.

 

 

Making things universal isn't just about human rights or needs, it also reduces administration costs. When the need to discriminate eligibility goes, so does a whole level of administration required to make it work. Sometimes the cheapest thing to do is give it to everyone.

 

It's one of the most compelling arguments for the universal basic income, without any proofs and with little administration required the welfare state would be cheaper giving every adult with an NI number a few hundred quid each month than the current system. It's pretty interesting, there was a study at Delft university when we were over there, I'd like to see it trialled here.

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7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Making things universal isn't just about human rights or needs, it also reduces administration costs. When the need to discriminate eligibility goes, so does a whole level of administration required to make it work. Sometimes the cheapest thing to do is give it to everyone.

 

It's one of the most compelling arguments for the universal basic income, without any proofs and with little administration required the welfare state would be cheaper giving every adult with an NI number a few hundred quid each month than the current system. It's pretty interesting, there was a study at Delft university when we were over there, I'd like to see it trialled here.

I thought we had trialled it over here? Sure there was a small area in the UK where they gave it a bash. 

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Smithee
Just now, Norm said:

I thought we had trialled it over here? Sure there was a small area in the UK where they gave it a bash. 

Is that right? I'd be interested to read about that.

 

I think it was maybe University of Utrecht actually when I think about it

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Smithee
3 minutes ago, Norm said:

I thought we had trialled it over here? Sure there was a small area in the UK where they gave it a bash. 

I looked it up, it looks like Hull wants to be the first place to try it, with everyone getting 50-100 a week each. 

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doctor jambo
7 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Making things universal isn't just about human rights or needs, it also reduces administration costs. When the need to discriminate eligibility goes, so does a whole level of administration required to make it work. Sometimes the cheapest thing to do is give it to everyone.

 

It's one of the most compelling arguments for the universal basic income, without any proofs and with little administration required the welfare state would be cheaper giving every adult with an NI number a few hundred quid each month than the current system. It's pretty interesting, there was a study at Delft university when we were over there, I'd like to see it trialled here.

Maybe, but the whole thing needs looked at   Properly.

And by that I mean the evidence .

UBI is fine if it is cost effective.

The war on immigration , drugs, prostitution everything needs looked at .

Taxation too.

Evidence based government policy, NOT pandering to the mob.

No guts anywhere for it though.

Child support as well, chasing people to pay for their kids...... governments are hugely wasteful.

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jambo89
25 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Free school meals for the children of barristers and dentists is not a good use of public monies .

Neither is free personal care for the wealthy .

The pot is finite.

Why spank money on things such as above when the social security blanket is so thin?

There is a difference between necessary and unnecessary spending - and COVID has shown how easily government wastes money.

Government needs to get smaller.

 

 

Is it though? It doesn't seem to be the case for capitalism over the past 70 years. 'Just stick it on the tab' or takle this money I printed at home seems to work apparently.

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The problem with means testing is that is costs almost as much to means test things as the savings you get from clawing back the money.

 

But yes, it's annoying that middle class families use their universal child allowance to pay for family holidays and rich retirees get free TV licenses and winter fuel allowance.

 

But when it comes to school meals, it's not good to have rich kids and poor kids on dinner tickets.

Teaching kids that social division, class, two-tier systems and all the rest of it is normal is not a good way of starting life.

State schools are paid for by general taxation, that everybody puts in to.

Everybody gets the same treatment. Free lunches for all.

Especially when higher earners pay more in tax anyways; they've already paid for their kid's lunches.

 

Housing being a human right and the absolute state of the UK housing/rental/serfdom market is another thread all by itself.

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1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Making things universal isn't just about human rights or needs, it also reduces administration costs. When the need to discriminate eligibility goes, so does a whole level of administration required to make it work. Sometimes the cheapest thing to do is give it to everyone.

 

It's one of the most compelling arguments for the universal basic income, without any proofs and with little administration required the welfare state would be cheaper giving every adult with an NI number a few hundred quid each month than the current system. It's pretty interesting, there was a study at Delft university when we were over there, I'd like to see it trialled here.


I liked the idea of UBI - cheaper to give it to all than run expensive admin schemes to figure out who shouldn't get benefits. It would also stop the punishing, deliberately unhelpful regime that Duncan-Smith put in place at the DWP. 

However, when you consider the % of jobs that we could lose to admin - do you really want the government in complete control of your only source of income when a zealous neoliberal right-wing mob could reduce the taxes on, say, a figurehead company with a token human workforce and a raft of AI bots generating their income, which in turn reduces the UBI you receive. Or having to fight in a reduced jobs market to top up a UBI that can't actually be lived comfortably on?

The more I read from the WEF of late makes me quite concerned about something that, used correctly, could be a game changer.  

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