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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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April fools day right enough. Assumptions and guesswork the order of the day to paint a pretty picture on how the EU will welcome us with open arms. ūüėā

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scott herbertson
36 minutes ago, Dazo said:

April fools day right enough. Assumptions and guesswork the order of the day to paint a pretty picture on how the EU will welcome us with open arms. ūüėā

 

 

Try painting a picture of why they wouldn't?

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32 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

Try painting a picture of why they wouldn't?


Why ? I genuinely have no idea the circumstances, restrictions or conditions under which an independent Scotland would join the eu. Logic and history suggests it will be horrible to deal with. Regardless it’s all pie in the sky at the moment. 

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scott herbertson
3 minutes ago, Dazo said:


Why ? I genuinely have no idea the circumstances, restrictions or conditions under which an independent Scotland would join the eu. Logic and history suggests it will be horrible to deal with. Regardless it’s all pie in the sky at the moment. 

 

 

Agree it's pie in the sky. Don't agree that the EU would be 'horrible to deal with'. That's a subjective judgement, based on the British media viewpoint that EU = "Bad" "Bureaucratic" etc not logic or history. It's hypothetical but the fact that we were part of it until very recently suggests to me that it wouldn't be too hard to meet the terms for rejoining and that they would make it as easy as possible (it's in their interests to encourage their members and to stick it up to Boris, apart from the economic benefits to them - eg fisheries) .

 

I don't think negotiating with the EU would be difficult - negotiating with rUK would be 'horrible' though IMO given the way they 'negotiated' the withdrawal agreement then decided it was no problem to break it , and that is the bit that worries me most.

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17 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Absolute nonsense.  Full of "would be", "used to be". For the avoidance of doubt, Scotland now raises less than rUK taxpayers and has done for several years. Defence spending accounts for 4.5% of our total spend and is, in effect,  negligible.  

We don't know at what rate a new state would pay for borrowing,  but it would more than likely be substantially more than a UK with an established currency,  lender of last resort and credit history. 

The UK does borrow money, yes, but the bulk of our increased funding comes from "pooling and sharing" aka rUK taxpayers. Our deficit/GDP ratio is 4 times that of rUK.  Those issues can't just be "magiced" away.


What backs up the UK currency? A - oil. It's a petrochemical currency. So, we have the means to back up our own currency quite nicely. 

Who "borrowed" all that money to put us in this deficit? A - Not Scotland. 

There's literally no substance to anything you write - do you really think we wouldn't have a decent credit rating, a currency (sterling, Scottish pound or Euro) or a central bank because, well what - is Scotland uniquely, out of rich western democracies, are somehow unable to establish infrastructure, or to make vastly different choices when it comes to borrowing or spending priorities. 

I get it  - you DON'T want to leave the UK, which is fine. Personal choice. 

The reasons advanced are utter bullshit, though, and you know it.     

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1 minute ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

Agree it's pie in the sky. Don't agree that the EU would be 'horrible to deal with'. That's a subjective judgement, based on the British media viewpoint that EU = "Bad" "Bureaucratic" etc not logic or history. It's hypothetical but the fact that we were part of it until very recently suggests to me that it wouldn't be too hard to meet the terms for rejoining and that they would make it as easy as possible (it's in their interests to encourage their members and to stick it up to Boris, apart from the economic benefits to them - eg fisheries) .

 

I don't think negotiating with the EU would be difficult - negotiating with rUK would be 'horrible' though IMO given the way they 'negotiated' the withdrawal agreement then decided it was no problem to break it , and that is the bit that worries me most.


It took Finland 3 years to negotiate joining. 

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manaliveits105

 Im sure if Nicoliar asks they will just waive the deficit requirements so we can join  and set a precedent for future countries applying  

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Enzo Chiefo
32 minutes ago, Gizmo said:


What backs up the UK currency? A - oil. It's a petrochemical currency. So, we have the means to back up our own currency quite nicely. 

Who "borrowed" all that money to put us in this deficit? A - Not Scotland. 

There's literally no substance to anything you write - do you really think we wouldn't have a decent credit rating, a currency (sterling, Scottish pound or Euro) or a central bank because, well what - is Scotland uniquely, out of rich western democracies, are somehow unable to establish infrastructure, or to make vastly different choices when it comes to borrowing or spending priorities. 

I get it  - you DON'T want to leave the UK, which is fine. Personal choice. 

The reasons advanced are utter bullshit, though, and you know it.     

Utter nonsense.  Your arguments may have had credence about 40 years ago but not now. The Pound is a flat currency and is backed simply by international reputation and the fact it is accepted worldwide.  Oil is done.

If there is a shred of acceptance from Nationalists about the problems and the austerity that separation would involve, then you could legitimately debate it. The fact is that, you're right, spending choices and priorities would have to change; away from the dependency culture, the hand outs instead of hand ups, the freebie bribes that the SNP have relied on to get elected in the first place. That's the circle that will never be squared. Our culture now shies away from hard choices, limits on benefits etc so a bit of reality needs to be faced before any constitutional changes are proposed.

I get that YOU want Independence for ideological reasons and because "other countries manage". That doesn't bother me, I prefer good decisions whatever side of an imaginary white line they take place on.

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manaliveits105

Blind and partially sighted people from Edinburgh and the Lothians are challenging the SG to change its mind on funding a new eye hospital in THE CAPITAL 

The snp decision would leave Edinburgh as the only major population centre in the UK without local acute eyecare services as well as damaging Edinburgh's reputation as a pioneering leading specialist research centre for eye care

They think its ok for blind and partially sighted people to travel to Livingstone for treatments - deary me they really are weegie centric erseholes - get them oot !.

 

Not a great day for the party of fairness with the criticism of the school "exams" fairness debacle all over the news too 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

Agree it's pie in the sky. Don't agree that the EU would be 'horrible to deal with'. That's a subjective judgement, based on the British media viewpoint that EU = "Bad" "Bureaucratic" etc not logic or history. It's hypothetical but the fact that we were part of it until very recently suggests to me that it wouldn't be too hard to meet the terms for rejoining and that they would make it as easy as possible (it's in their interests to encourage their members and to stick it up to Boris, apart from the economic benefits to them - eg fisheries) .

 

I don't think negotiating with the EU would be difficult - negotiating with rUK would be 'horrible' though IMO given the way they 'negotiated' the withdrawal agreement then decided it was no problem to break it , and that is the bit that worries me most.


Subjective viewpoint I can handle but the whole undertone that unionists blindly follow the media while pro independence people are in any way superior and the only ones able to think for themselves pretty typical. 
 

If you think the EU are not a horrible lot to negotiate with than we will just have to disagree on that one. 

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NANOJAMBO
24 minutes ago, Dazo said:


Subjective viewpoint I can handle but the whole undertone that unionists blindly follow the media while pro independence people are in any way superior and the only ones able to think for themselves pretty typical. 
 

If you think the EU are not a horrible lot to negotiate with than we will just have to disagree on that one. 

What does that actually mean , in reality ? 

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NANOJAMBO
2 hours ago, Gizmo said:


It took Finland 3 years to negotiate joining. 

How long should it take ? 

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AlimOzturk

Alex Salmond had a Alba press conference today and stated that they have already exceeded the membership number of the Lib Dem’s and Green Party. He is also saying that for this reason and also the fact he has 32 candidates, more sitting MPs that Scottish Labour in Westminster, that these debates are talking about Alba his without him being able to defend them is reason enough why they should be included in live tv debates. 
 

They are clearly a serious party and I see any reason why they shouldn’t be included if we are talking about a fair and democratic system. 

Edited by AlimOzturk
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NANOJAMBO
4 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Oh yeah, no I got your point, I'm just trying to kind of highlight that there is a willingness for us to join/rejoin both internally within Scotland and from the major European nations too. So I would suspect there is unlikely to be awkward barriers holding up our membership if we did vote for Independence. I think concerns around Spain have been mentioned with Catalonia, although I believe a Spanish minister has rubbished those in the last sort of 18 months or so. 

Sheer speculation with no basis in reality but it gets trotted out with monotonous regularity.

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Mikey1874
3 hours ago, Gizmo said:


What backs up the UK currency? A - oil. It's a petrochemical currency. So, we have the means to back up our own currency quite nicely. 

Who "borrowed" all that money to put us in this deficit? A - Not Scotland. 

There's literally no substance to anything you write - do you really think we wouldn't have a decent credit rating, a currency (sterling, Scottish pound or Euro) or a central bank because, well what - is Scotland uniquely, out of rich western democracies, are somehow unable to establish infrastructure, or to make vastly different choices when it comes to borrowing or spending priorities. 

I get it  - you DON'T want to leave the UK, which is fine. Personal choice. 

The reasons advanced are utter bullshit, though, and you know it.     

 

An independent Scotland should be able to go all in behind fossil fuels. Not just the oil. Get all the coal mined. Loads of jobs too. 

 

Our strong position on renewables gives us the moral high ground there. 

 

Saudi Arabia will have competition.

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The Spain thing again, really?!

They didn't veto the Czech Republic. 

Or Slovakia.
Or Estonia.

Or Lithuania.

Or Latvia.

Or Croatia.

Or Poland.
Or Slovenia.

Or Bulgaria.

Or Romania.

All of which gained Independence before applying to join the EU.

 

Neither have they vetoed the applications of Albania, Montenegro, Bosnia, North Macedonia or Serbia.

 

It's a pish argument and to be honest I'm getting sick of smashing it down every time it pops up.

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scott herbertson
1 hour ago, Dazo said:


Subjective viewpoint I can handle but the whole undertone that unionists blindly follow the media while pro independence people are in any way superior and the only ones able to think for themselves pretty typical. 
 

If you think the EU are not a horrible lot to negotiate with than we will just have to disagree on that one. 

 

 

I don't think anti independence people or pro independence people are blind to the subjective nature of the media (of either side tho there is very little that is pro-independence). However the media does influence people's opinions - some of them some of the time (otherwise they wouldn't try to and advertising wouldn't work) 

 

The EU can of course be horrible in negotiations. However they would want us to join, so I think they would be less horrible than, say, in a negotiation with a country which wass blaming them for every ill it faces and making fanciful claims about them....

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AlimOzturk

We leave the UK and immediately join the EU then that just gives Boris and his cronies the big two fecking finger salute of GIRUY

 

Think EU leaders would want to let that pass by?

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jamboy1982

So many union supporters on this thread that just trot out lie after lie of negativity. Lies that have been proven to be lies many times over. But just keeping spouting them!!

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JackLadd
44 minutes ago, jamboy1982 said:

So many union supporters on this thread that just trot out lie after lie of negativity. Lies that have been proven to be lies many times over. But just keeping spouting them!!

 

Amnesia sufferer Sturgeon is using a bonanza of English tax payers money to hoodwink the working class and destroy the Union. I've been of the view the UK government should cut her down to size and give the Scots a taste of fiscal reality. She would squeal TOARIES and STERITY and have her mindless flag shagging legions march along Princess Street blaming Westminster for HER failings to grow the Scottish economy since 2007 and create any kind of situation that would make independence even remotely feasible. I get cultists and dafties don't want bothered by facts. Your wee mind has already been made up by the SNP's Big Lie. 

Edited by JackLadd
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Justin Z
48 minutes ago, jamboy1982 said:

So many union supporters on this thread that just trot out lie after lie of negativity.

 

4 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Amnesia sufferer Sturgeon is using a bonanza of English tax payers money to hoodwink the working class and destroy the Union.

 

Jack I don't think that was a call to action from jamboy, simmer down fella.

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Konrad von Carstein
51 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

Jack I don't think that was a call to action from jamboy, simmer down fella.

I'm beginning to think that he (and a couple of others) wears shoes that fasten with velcro...

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6 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

I'm beginning to think that he (and a couple of others) wears shoes that fasten with velcro...

From the polar opposite opinions. 

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1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

An independent Scotland should be able to go all in behind fossil fuels. Not just the oil. Get all the coal mined. Loads of jobs too. 

 

Our strong position on renewables gives us the moral high ground there. 

 

Saudi Arabia will have competition.


Fair point, but the oil is what backs the UK currency at the moment - as much as we have massive potential in renewables and need to keep as much fossil fuel in the ground as possible. 

 

4 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Utter nonsense.  Your arguments may have had credence about 40 years ago but not now. The Pound is a flat currency and is backed simply by international reputation and the fact it is accepted worldwide.  Oil is done.

If there is a shred of acceptance from Nationalists about the problems and the austerity that separation would involve, then you could legitimately debate it. The fact is that, you're right, spending choices and priorities would have to change; away from the dependency culture, the hand outs instead of hand ups, the freebie bribes that the SNP have relied on to get elected in the first place. That's the circle that will never be squared. Our culture now shies away from hard choices, limits on benefits etc so a bit of reality needs to be faced before any constitutional changes are proposed.

I get that YOU want Independence for ideological reasons and because "other countries manage". That doesn't bother me, I prefer good decisions whatever side of an imaginary white line they take place on.


I want independence because there isn't a shred of doubt we can do far, far better for the people of this country without being stuck with the current unfair, classist system, governed by out of touch millionaires who believe the way to govern is to scrape off as much money for corporate bungs, cayman island bank accounts and ficticious companies that their friends/donors co-incidentally own, spending trillions on WMDs and having to be shamed into spending a few quid on keeping kids fed.

If that's what you are happy with, then I don't know what to say about your ambition except that the tories have managed to extend austerity to the point its impoverished your very soul. 

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scott herbertson

Scottish parliament voting intention(s):

Constituency:
SNP: 49% (-1)
CON: 21% (-)
LAB: 20% (-)
LDEM: 9% (+1)

List:
SNP: 37% (-2)
LAB: 19% (-1)
CON: 18% (-1)
GRN: 11% (-)
LDEM: 8% (+1)
ALBA: 3% (+3)

via @Survation

Chgs. w/ 18 M

 

 

Poll just published =- Alba = zero seats on this basis

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JackLadd

Interesting that Sturg-jong-un thinks vaccines come out of thin air. Maybe instead of sending 31 Christmas cards to eu commissioners she sends them get well soon cards. Back in lockdown while the ungrateful ginger enjoys the benefits of Britain.

Edited by JackLadd
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AlimOzturk
1 hour ago, scott herbertson said:

Scottish parliament voting intention(s):

Constituency:
SNP: 49% (-1)
CON: 21% (-)
LAB: 20% (-)
LDEM: 9% (+1)

List:
SNP: 37% (-2)
LAB: 19% (-1)
CON: 18% (-1)
GRN: 11% (-)
LDEM: 8% (+1)
ALBA: 3% (+3)

via @Survation

Chgs. w/ 18 M

 

 

Poll just published =- Alba = zero seats on this basis


only 6 days into the campaign. Will be much higher than that I’m coming week I would imagine. 

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Enzo Chiefo
8 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Interesting that Sturg-jong-un thinks vaccines come out of thin air. Maybe instead of sending 31 Christmas cards to eu commissioners she sends them get well soon cards. Back in lockdown while the ungrateful ginger enjoys the benefits of Britain.

Don't hold your breath, Jack. She has not changed her view about separation since she was a teenager, despite the world having moved beyond the idea of borders and inward looking nationalism. She is an intellectual luddite of the highest order.

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Konrad von Carstein
10 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Don't hold your breath, Jack. She has not changed her view about separation since she was a teenager, despite the world having moved beyond the idea of borders and inward looking nationalism. She is an intellectual luddite of the highest order.

Brexit?

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scott herbertson
34 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


only 6 days into the campaign. Will be much higher than that I’m coming week I would imagine. 

 

 

Personally I don't think so. Salmond has a popularity in polling of -71 which is even worse than Boris at -56. I think his leadership will do them no favours unless he gets a good media platform

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JackLadd
16 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Don't hold your breath, Jack. She has not changed her view about separation since she was a teenager, despite the world having moved beyond the idea of borders and inward looking nationalism. She is an intellectual luddite of the highest order.

 

A very dangerous to my personal well being luddite. If she does force Scotland through the ringer again with another even more divisive ref she can explain to us all why shrinking an economy 11bn that is already 15bn in the red is a good idea. This is per the London School of Economics of course, can be dismissed as yoons and nawbags by her and her natagandists. 

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Enzo Chiefo
19 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Brexit?

Yes, I agree KvC. I voted Remain but, yes,  I've always said Leave and Yes were exactly the same. The rhetoric and arguments were identical despite the attempts to paint one as "progressive " and the other not. 

Arguing, as Sturgeon does, to leave the UK but rejoin the EU is illogical. 

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Konrad von Carstein
Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

Yes, I agree KvC. I voted Remain but, yes,  I've always said Leave and Yes were exactly the same. The rhetoric and arguments were identical despite the attempts to paint one as "progressive " and the other not. 

Arguing, as Sturgeon does, to leave the UK but rejoin the EU is illogical. 

I fear we must agree to differ... Which is fine... Do you have the link I asked for yesterday? (He asks hoping it was this thread :lol:)

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Konrad von Carstein
Just now, Konrad von Carstein said:

I fear we must agree to differ... Which is fine... Do you have the link I asked for yesterday? (He asks hoping it was this thread :lol:)

 

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Enzo Chiefo
2 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

I fear we must agree to differ... Which is fine... Do you have the link I asked for yesterday? (He asks hoping it was this thread :lol:)

Fair comment. Yes, it was this thread but I thought I had "avoided" all doubtūü§£. No, unfortunately,¬† I don't have any link. I was just going by the last few years GERS figures. I'm happy to stand corrected if not the true picture. ūüĎć

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Konrad von Carstein
7 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Fair comment. Yes, it was this thread but I thought I had "avoided" all doubtūü§£. No, unfortunately,¬† I don't have any link. I was just going by the last few years GERS figures. I'm happy to stand corrected if not the true picture. ūüĎć

:lol:

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Mikey1874

Just caught a bit on the election survey putting Alba at 3%.

 

Bit of article I saw in shop said that will put Alex Salmond in Parliament. 

 

Suppose that would be quite a big deal on it's own. 

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31 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Just caught a bit on the election survey putting Alba at 3%.

 

Bit of article I saw in shop said that will put Alex Salmond in Parliament. 

 

Suppose that would be quite a big deal on it's own. 

 

3% and all he's done is a couple of interviews, a dodgy stream or two and obviously announce. AFI was launched months ago and didn't manage to poll even 1%.

 

I think if he can force his way into a leaders debate, he'll get the votes he's looking for. He wants to run a positive campaign, and I think when people see he's got no interest in attacking Sturgeon then I think they'll soften their stance (talking SNP voters, obviously unionists aren't for turning).

 

Point is, I don't think this is a disaster. Policies still to be announced as well, which may bring more in. I think once SNP1&2 becomes clear to be a busted flush then we'll see both the greens and Alba shoot up. 

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22 hours ago, JackLadd said:

 

A very dangerous to my personal well being luddite. If she does force Scotland through the ringer again with another even more divisive ref she can explain to us all why shrinking an economy 11bn that is already 15bn in the red is a good idea. This is per the London School of Economics of course, can be dismissed as yoons and nawbags by her and her natagandists. 

I know I'm wasting my time trying to have a sensible conversation with you but, if you are so sure the idea of our country being able to stand on it's own feet is a no goer, why not advocate for a referendum so you can shut these jumped up Jocks up for good 

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JackLadd
36 minutes ago, XB52 said:

I know I'm wasting my time trying to have a sensible conversation with you but, if you are so sure the idea of our country being able to stand on it's own feet is a no goer, why not advocate for a referendum so you can shut these jumped up Jocks up for good 

 

You are right on its viability and GERS, IFS, LSE are all wrong, eh. Why don't you have your sensible conversations with these bodies and their hard data on why the SNP are scoundrels. I will vote SNP only when 2 plus 2 make 5! Btw I see they were involved in ripping off UK covid grants. SNP are at the fiddle more than Farage was in the Brussels assembly. 

Edited by JackLadd
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BarneyBattles
45 minutes ago, XB52 said:

I know I'm wasting my time trying to have a sensible conversation with you but, if you are so sure the idea of our country being able to stand on it's own feet is a no goer, why not advocate for a referendum so you can shut these jumped up Jocks up for good 


Absolutely spot on. 
 

If we are too poor / stupid etc. surely the country will reject independence. 
 

If it is a yes vote surely that’s a win for rUK?

 

Get rid of the stupid financial burden colony?

 

Makes you wonder why the need for project fear and the clamour for us to stay in the union. 
 

Edit. It’s a bit like wanting Loic Damour to stay at Hearts. 
 

I’ve asked that question loads of times and never had an answer so not expecting one now. 

Edited by BarneyBattles
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weehammy
1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

See what happens

 

 

She’s looking more and more like Deputy Dawg as she gets older.:cornette_dog:

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weehammy
5 hours ago, OTT said:

 

3% and all he's done is a couple of interviews, a dodgy stream or two and obviously announce. AFI was launched months ago and didn't manage to poll even 1%.

 

I think if he can force his way into a leaders debate, he'll get the votes he's looking for. He wants to run a positive campaign, and I think when people see he's got no interest in attacking Sturgeon then I think they'll soften their stance (talking SNP voters, obviously unionists aren't for turning).

 

Point is, I don't think this is a disaster. Policies still to be announced as well, which may bring more in. I think once SNP1&2 becomes clear to be a busted flush then we'll see both the greens and Alba shoot up. 

If he gets into a debate will anyone have the balls to ask him about his history as ‚Äėsex pest‚Äô?
(His lawyer’s words.)

 

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JackLadd
3 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:


Absolutely spot on. 
 

If we are too poor / stupid etc. surely the country will reject independence. 
 

If it is a yes vote surely that’s a win for rUK?

 

Get rid of the stupid financial burden colony?

 

Makes you wonder why the need for project fear and the clamour for us to stay in the union. 
 

Edit. It’s a bit like wanting Loic Damour to stay at Hearts. 
 

I’ve asked that question loads of times and never had an answer so not expecting one now. 

 

 

Available facts and data is reality and not fear. SNP have a 15bn deficit and the economy would shrink over 10bn if torn away from UK. Where are you finding your missing 25bn a year from? Do not insult my intelligence that SNP can run a 25% deficit by any means. They have lived vicariously from English patronage since 2007 and would plunge Scotland into a death spiral if that was removed. 

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BarneyBattles
Just now, JackLadd said:

 

 

Available facts and data is reality and not fear. SNP have a 15bn deficit and the economy would shrink over 10bn if torn away from UK. Where are you finding your missing 25bn a year from? Do not insult my intelligence that SNP can run a 25% deficit by any means. They have lived vicariously from English patronage since 2007 and would plunge Scotland into a death spiral if that was removed. 


So still no answer as to why rUK are desperate for there not to be another referendum then. 
 

Given what you’ve posted, rUK could give its economy and citizens the biggest financial boost in years just by getting rid of the jock spongers. 

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JackLadd
Just now, BarneyBattles said:


So still no answer as to why rUK are desperate for there not to be another referendum then. 
 

Given what you’ve posted, rUK could give its economy and citizens the biggest financial boost in years just by getting rid of the jock spongers. 

 

Because we had one 7 years ago that gave a clear result that the SNP agreed was once in a generation. Their barefaced and opportunistic squeals over Brexit are without a shred of merit. And in case you missed the pandemic the last thing we need emerging from this is another extremely divisive and damaging referendum. On the pandemic you can thank being part of the UK for the vaccine and the furlough scheme. Two more things that would have been missing if they had won in 2014. No doubt you will claim that as fear also. 

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Konrad von Carstein
3 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

 

Because we had one 7 years ago that gave a clear result that the SNP agreed was once in a generation. Their barefaced and opportunistic squeals over Brexit are without a shred of merit. And in case you missed the pandemic the last thing we need emerging from this is another extremely divisive and damaging referendum. On the pandemic you can thank being part of the UK for the vaccine and the furlough scheme. Two more things that would have been missing if they had won in 2014. No doubt you will claim that as fear also. 

Bare. Faced. Lie.

 

 

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JackLadd
Just now, Konrad von Carstein said:

Bare. Faced. Lie.

 

 

 

 

Yes, from them. Liars then and liars now. 

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