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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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Enzo Chiefo
21 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Why do you think our pensioners should have the worst deal in Europe?

Different systems in different countries though. Something like 30% of pensioner earnings in the UK  come from private employer pensions compared with next to nothing in France,  Germany,  Spain etc.  We were encouraged, from 1988 onwards, to contract out of SERPS and pay reduced NI contributions in return.  I started working in pensions in that year and the idea was to reduce the future burden on the State and make people responsible for their own provision.

 

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Enzo Chiefo
5 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

We don't have a deficit in Scotland. The SNP will not be in power for any significant period in Scotland and those who wish a more market led approach to government will be as free as anybody else to put forward their ideas.

 

If Scotland can't be a fairer more equal society then there is no point in Indy but as we live in just about the most unequal society in the so called developed world the potential for greater fairness is massive. 

 

Why would you tell us that we are workshy if you didn't think that was a defining characteriasic of Scotland?

 

Freebies as you describe them have to be paid for as you frequently tell us in other posts. We pay for them and we get to decide which we want and which we dont. The NHS being the biggest freebie where malingerers of every description can get treated for any illness that takes their fancy without any personal cost. Indeed we even feed them when they are in hospital without charge which of course is an abuse of taxpayers money. We let them visit the general practitioner, again without charge if they think they might have something wrong with them. We give them free diagnostic tests and treatments just because they are unwell. Surely we should charge for the GPs time, the treatment and the prescription and abandon the notion of holistic care totally as it is clearly too expensive. Much better to have people make their own choices about whether to eat or buy their anti- psychotics instead. Same with the old people, why shoould they be supported to live independently at the taxpayers expense when they could just die of neglect instead if their relatives wont or can't look after them.

  Why should we feed the offspring of the poor surely that's the responsibilty of their workshy parents, if they have any? Why should we provide education and training for our youth at minimal expense to them? There is after all no such thing as society according to some of your ilk. We should make the poor pay for everything they get and make a profit out of it too just like student loans. 

  Seriously why is it that you can't see that these freebies as you call them are the hallmarks of a civilised society and are of mutual benefit. Keeping the people poor and hungry and in bad health may be the Tory way but that is what we are trying to get away from. Society benefits from social spending. All the most successful and happiest countries spend heavily on health and social care, if you dont you end up like the USA or Brazil.

 

The market economy has been an abject failure for many its primacy another Thatcher myth. The holy grail of economic growth is ending especially for low skill countries like the UK. We need to invest in our people instead of importing our skills from other countries.

 

  We had people sitting on stools pressing buttons too at the same time the SU did in government offices and department stores. Many were old soldiers incapable of doing much else. Nowadays our prisons, homeless shelters and mental institutions are full of them. Robbed of their dignity the best many can hope for is a hand out from a charity.

 

People liked living in the Soviet Union they understood that there is more to life than self interest and appreciated the different opportunities it afforded.

Your first sentence and last paragraph sum up your entire post, Doug.

We  have a NOTiONAL deficit that will become a REAL deficit if you and others vote for separation from rUK. Denying that fact should really mean the end of the debate but I'm glad I read your last paragraph too.

People enjoyed Communism and totalitarian control, really?? How does queuing all day for basic necessities square with your vision of a fairer Scotland?

Anyway what does "fair" actually mean? One of these useless words. Fair to whom? Who decides?

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coconut doug
4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Your first sentence and last paragraph sum up your entire post, Doug.

We  have a NOTiONAL deficit that will become a REAL deficit if you and others vote for separation from rUK. Denying that fact should really mean the end of the debate but I'm glad I read your last paragraph too.

People enjoyed Communism and totalitarian control, really?? How does queuing all day for basic necessities square with your vision of a fairer Scotland?

Anyway what does "fair" actually mean? One of these useless words. Fair to whom? Who decides?

 

No it's a notional deficit and that means it does not exist in reality. It will not become real either as we will not be doing the same things.

I'm not advocating we should model ourselves on the SU. I'm just telling you SU citizens supported its continuation in huge numbers in every part of it. I'm sure they did have queues but we didn't bother queuing when i was young because we didn't have any money. 

Fair is not a useless word just because the notion is incomprehensible to the average Tory. Things like equal opportunity, worker's rights, access to health care, freedom from discrimination, access to justice and a clean environment come to mind. Simple things really, basic human values so frequently disregarded in our pursuit of money.

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manaliveits105

The NHS up here don’t think the SG offer of 4% is FAIR 

2 unions advising members to reject

not a great start for fairness really 

SG thought they had one up on the toooooaries as usual but they’ve hibsed it again 

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Enzo Chiefo
6 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

No it's a notional deficit and that means it does not exist in reality. It will not become real either as we will not be doing the same things.

I'm not advocating we should model ourselves on the SU. I'm just telling you SU citizens supported its continuation in huge numbers in every part of it. I'm sure they did have queues but we didn't bother queuing when i was young because we didn't have any money. 

Fair is not a useless word just because the notion is incomprehensible to the average Tory. Things like equal opportunity, worker's rights, access to health care, freedom from discrimination, access to justice and a clean environment come to mind. Simple things really, basic human values so frequently disregarded in our pursuit of money.

It WILL become a real deficit on day 1 of independence.  A magic wand won't make it disappear nor stop it coming back the next year. We will also have our share of rUK debit to service. You're right, we can make different choices but looking at a breakdown of the 81bn that Scotland spent last year, I'm not sure which parts you would advocate cutting. The obvious one would be "social protection" which is our largest expenditure, 30%, and 7.5 times higher than the amount we spend, or is spent on our behalf,  on "defence ". Would that be fair?

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Smithee
38 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Different systems in different countries though. Something like 30% of pensioner earnings in the UK  come from private employer pensions compared with next to nothing in France,  Germany,  Spain etc.  We were encouraged, from 1988 onwards, to contract out of SERPS and pay reduced NI contributions in return.  I started working in pensions in that year and the idea was to reduce the future burden on the State and make people responsible for their own provision.

 

 

Germany and France, like the Netherlands, have a three pillar system consisting of state, private and occupational. In France and Netherlands all 3 are mandatory while in Germany the occupational contributions are not, but around half the country get them. Spain I don't know.

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14 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

The NHS up here don’t think the SG offer of 4% is FAIR 

2 unions advising members to reject

not a great start for fairness really 

SG thought they had one up on the toooooaries as usual but they’ve hibsed it again 


The unions don’t think it’s fair. The NHS staff opinions don’t necessarily follow that same belief. 
 

The first Union to come out and recommend it’s members don’t go against it was GMB. And the Union officer pushing that is Richard Leonard’s wife. 
 

4% is a cracking deal under the circumstances. 

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manaliveits105

Pensioners get 100% increase 

the people who look after their health only 4%  and we don’t know how either will be funded-  krankienomics 

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Mikey1874

A key thing we need to distinguish ourselves is the time zone.

 

Since early morning winter light is the key determinant here minus 1 GMT would do it. 

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2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Pensioners get 100% increase 

the people who look after their health only 4%  and we don’t know how either will be funded-  krankienomics 

I think pensioners need a bigger pay bump than nurses. 
 

Maybe Nicola has found Mrs De Vil’s magic money tree. 

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Private pensions are a bit of a lottery. **** knows the situation of mine when I do get to retire, it's currently unsustainable without me paying more now to fund the already rich ***** who are retiring on nearly double my salary (while having already paid off their mortgage).

 

A better state pension makes more sense.

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Mikey1874
45 minutes ago, kila said:

Private pensions are a bit of a lottery. **** knows the situation of mine when I do get to retire, it's currently unsustainable without me paying more now to fund the already rich ***** who are retiring on nearly double my salary (while having already paid off their mortgage).

 

A better state pension makes more sense.

 

So does a general tax rate of more than 20%.

 

Around 40% would be more like it. 

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2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

So does a general tax rate of more than 20%.

 

Around 40% would be more like it. 

 

But those earning double my salary would burden it more than I would. If I entered that bracket I wouldn't mind paying more tax.

 

A private pension is a lot more risky. Mine is essentially an investment fund for some other loonies to play with and try get a return to make the whole thing work. And it's failing.

 

 

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Konrad von Carstein
2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

The NHS up here don’t think the SG offer of 4% is FAIR 

2 unions advising members to reject

not a great start for fairness really 

SG thought they had one up on the toooooaries as usual but they’ve hibsed it again 

image.png.67bd15ff540e6ab66589894b910d8336.png

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Enzo Chiefo
2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Germany and France, like the Netherlands, have a three pillar system consisting of state, private and occupational. In France and Netherlands all 3 are mandatory while in Germany the occupational contributions are not, but around half the country get them. Spain I don't know.

Thanks for the info.👍 It's certainly not easy to survive only on the state pension here. Hopefully auto enrolment helps the younger age groups but for others it's prob come late in the day

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Governor Tarkin
53 minutes ago, kila said:

 

But those earning double my salary would burden it more than I would. If I entered that bracket I wouldn't mind paying more tax.

 

 

 

 

You say that now.

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AlimOzturk

kinda pisses me off that basically the older generation are always the ones to get the best of everything. They have had the jobs for life, cheap housing, excellent private pensions and it seems the younger generation and now they are talking and about doubling their state pensions. Are meant to just pick up the fecking tab for it all? Doubt by the time retire I will ever see a penny of state pension because will be about 100 years old by the time. 

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Konrad von Carstein
1 minute ago, AlimOzturk said:

kinda pisses me off that basically the older generation are always the ones to get the best of everything. They have had the jobs for life, cheap housing, excellent private pensions and it seems the younger generation and now they are talking and about doubling their state pensions. Are meant to just pick up the fecking tab for it all? Doubt by the time retire I will ever see a penny of state pension because will be about 100 years old by the time. 

The older generation, who have paid tax and NIC for thier working life? And some who fought in a war?

 

The cheap housing wasn't cheap in thier day, and company, private pensions are not aways all they are cracked up to be...

 

OAPs choosing between heat or eat is an actual thing...you come across as a wee bit selfish in the above post...IMO and no offence meant...

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Mikey1874
19 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

kinda pisses me off that basically the older generation are always the ones to get the best of everything. They have had the jobs for life, cheap housing, excellent private pensions and it seems the younger generation and now they are talking and about doubling their state pensions. Are meant to just pick up the fecking tab for it all? Doubt by the time retire I will ever see a penny of state pension because will be about 100 years old by the time. 

 

Its safer now generally. There are more opportunities. It isn't all so bad for younger generations. 

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AlimOzturk
18 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

The older generation, who have paid tax and NIC for thier working life? And some who fought in a war?

 

The cheap housing wasn't cheap in thier day, and company, private pensions are not aways all they are cracked up to be...

 

OAPs choosing between heat or eat is an actual thing...you come across as a wee bit selfish in the above post...IMO and no offence meant...


I don’t begrudge them it I far from it. Just wish the same pattern of every generation should be better than the last generation thing was real. 
 

Fully appreciate how the post comes across as selfish though it really wasn’t intended that way. 

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Konrad von Carstein
6 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


I don’t begrudge them it I far from it. Just wish the same pattern of every generation should be better than the last generation thing was real. 
 

Fully appreciate how the post comes across as selfish though it really wasn’t intended that way. 

👍

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John Findlay
17 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

kinda pisses me off that basically the older generation are always the ones to get the best of everything. They have had the jobs for life, cheap housing, excellent private pensions and it seems the younger generation and now they are talking and about doubling their state pensions. Are meant to just pick up the fecking tab for it all? Doubt by the time retire I will ever see a penny of state pension because will be about 100 years old by the time. 

At what age would you call someone old?

I left school 31st of May 1979 after sitting my O Grades. I wanted to go to Edinburgh University and do a degree in Geography, but my dad said I cant afford that son you have to go and earn a wage.

Started work 4th of June 1979 full time delivering juice for Bon Accord. Earned between £24/£27 a week for a 60hr week at 16. That was after deductions of income tax and NI.

Knew I was Joining the Navy on September the 4th 1979 which was a Tuesday. So finished with Non Accord Saturday the 1st of September after my last 12hr day.

Served in the Navy from the 4th of September 79 until 16th of April 1990. Between then and the 28th of June 1990, I worked for [email protected] cross channel ferries, Mike Scott's bakery, and Tambrands who produced female hygiene products.

28th of June 1990 joined IBM and was there until 22nd July 2005, still paying my income tax and national insurance. Was unemployed between 22nd July 2005 and the 5th of November 2005, when I started working for Scotrail at less than half the annual salary I was earning at IBM. 5th of November 2005 until the present day I'm still with Scotrail. 4th of June this year I will have been a working man for forty two years apart from the little blip between July the 22nd 2005 and November the 5th 2005 and I paid my income tax and National Insurance. I can safely say I have put far more into the system than I have taken out.

So please forgive me if this old git believes he has worked and earned his pension when i start claiming it.

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AlimOzturk
23 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

At what age would you call someone old?

I left school 31st of May 1979 after sitting my O Grades. I wanted to go to Edinburgh University and do a degree in Geography, but my dad said I cant afford that son you have to go and earn a wage.

Started work 4th of June 1979 full time delivering juice for Bon Accord. Earned between £24/£27 a week for a 60hr week at 16. That was after deductions of income tax and NI.

Knew I was Joining the Navy on September the 4th 1979 which was a Tuesday. So finished with Non Accord Saturday the 1st of September after my last 12hr day.

Served in the Navy from the 4th of September 79 until 16th of April 1990. Between then and the 28th of June 1990, I worked for [email protected] cross channel ferries, Mike Scott's bakery, and Tambrands who produced female hygiene products.

28th of June 1990 joined IBM and was there until 22nd July 2005, still paying my income tax and national insurance. Was unemployed between 22nd July 2005 and the 5th of November 2005, when I started working for Scotrail at less than half the annual salary I was earning at IBM. 5th of November 2005 until the present day I'm still with Scotrail. 4th of June this year I will have been a working man for forty two years apart from the little blip between July the 22nd 2005 and November the 5th 2005 and I paid my income tax and National Insurance. I can safely say I have put far more into the system than I have taken out.

So please forgive me if this old git believes he has worked and earned his pension when i start claiming it.


I don’t begrudge anyone their pension money mate. I think I wrote something that is coming across totally differently than what I meant. Of course if you work and pay into a system you deserve your retirement money. 
 

Just wondering where the money is going to come from to double the state pension fund. I think that’s incredibly bold and will be demanding on the younger generation to pay for said pension rises. As they say they don’t save up the money to pay people their pensions. 

Edited by AlimOzturk
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John Findlay
36 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


I don’t begrudge anyone their pension money mate. I think I wrote something that is coming across totally differently than what I meant. Of course if you work and pay into a system you deserve your retirement money. 
 

Just wondering where the money is going to come from to double the state pension fund. I think that’s incredibly bold and will be demanding on the younger generation to pay for said pension rises. As they say they don’t save up the money to pay people their pensions. 

No problem. Everyone will pay apart from the politicians.

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Cairneyhill Jambo
2 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

kinda pisses me off that basically the older generation are always the ones to get the best of everything. They have had the jobs for life, cheap housing, excellent private pensions and it seems the younger generation and now they are talking and about doubling their state pensions. Are meant to just pick up the fecking tab for it all? Doubt by the time retire I will ever see a penny of state pension because will be about 100 years old by the time. 

Seriously??

 

I've worked for the Scottish Government for 33 years now and thanks to the Westminster Government, I'll have to work another 16 years before I can claim my full pension. 

 

Welcome to the Real world. 

 

Edited by Cairneyhill Jambo
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5 hours ago, Cairneyhill Jambo said:

Seriously??

 

I've worked for the Scottish Government for 33 years now and thanks to the Westminster Government, I'll have to work another 16 years before I can claim my full pension. 

 

Welcome to the Real world. 

 

When would you have been able to collect your full pension otherwise? 

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Enzo Chiefo
5 hours ago, Cairneyhill Jambo said:

Seriously??

 

I've worked for the Scottish Government for 33 years now and thanks to the Westminster Government, I'll have to work another 16 years before I can claim my full pension. 

 

Welcome to the Real world. 

 

16 years??? 

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10 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

The older generation, who have paid tax and NIC for thier working life? And some who fought in a war?

 

The cheap housing wasn't cheap in thier day, and company, private pensions are not aways all they are cracked up to be...

 

OAPs choosing between heat or eat is an actual thing...you come across as a wee bit selfish in the above post...IMO and no offence meant...

 

As a proportion of annual salary it was. My dad's first flat in the Edinburgh was about a years salary.

 

My first flat was 5x my annual salary for a 1 bedroom flat in a village.

 

Yes, the interest rates were higher but I'd rather pay 11% on something that was 1 year of my salary than 2% on something 5x my salary. Also, with interest rates high came better/safer returns on savings.

 

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Konrad von Carstein
14 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

As a proportion of annual salary it was. My dad's first flat in the Edinburgh was about a years salary.

 

My first flat was 5x my annual salary for a 1 bedroom flat in a village.

 

Yes, the interest rates were higher but I'd rather pay 11% on something that was 1 year of my salary than 2% on something 5x my salary. Also, with interest rates high came better/safer returns on savings.

 

Happy to stand corrected on that... 👍

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5 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Happy to stand corrected on that... 👍

 

As will I be (if somebody does) as I appreciate that's just a single example!!

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2462753/amp/How-items-cost-risen-line-house-prices.html

 

That's quite an interesting article on it. Average salary now would be £88k if it has risen in line with house prices 😂😂

 

I'm on roughly the average UK salary...and sadly, it's nowhere near that!!

 

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Konrad von Carstein
55 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

As will I be (if somebody does) as I appreciate that's just a single example!!

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2462753/amp/How-items-cost-risen-line-house-prices.html

 

That's quite an interesting article on it. Average salary now would be £88k if it has risen in line with house prices 😂😂

 

I'm on roughly the average UK salary...and sadly, it's nowhere near that!!

 

I was going by my parents living in council housing (until my then divorced mum took advantage of Thatchers sell off) and stories from my ex-inlaws about being treated with jealous  contempt by ex council neighbours because they bought thier home.

In any case pensuoners who have paid their dues should be treated a hell of a lot better by the government than they are...

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Cairneyhill Jambo
3 hours ago, Candy said:

When would you have been able to collect your full pension otherwise? 

When I would be 58. I would have got my full pension after 40 years service but then they moved the goalposts. 

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AlimOzturk

Salmond getting tv tike this morning on good morning Britain. Got the host told for constantly interrupting as well which was pleasing. 

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Ron Burgundy

I would love my state pension doubled when I retire but I am curious as to how this will be implemented and who will fund it. Also they might get round to abolishing the unfair council tax like they promised in 2011. Who knows maybe Nicola just forgot about that.

Tories -Bad lying corrupt sneaky 

SNP - See above.

 

 

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Smithee
4 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I would love my state pension doubled when I retire but I am curious as to how this will be implemented and who will fund it. Also they might get round to abolishing the unfair council tax like they promised in 2011. Who knows maybe Nicola just forgot about that.

Tories -Bad lying corrupt sneaky 

SNP - See above.

How does every other country in Europe fund it?

 

They make their citizens' lives and wellbeing a priority and fit everything else in around that.

 

We're the crappiest country in Europe for pensions, we can surely accept it's affordable to do better for Scottish pensioners 

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1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

I was going by my parents living in council housing (until my then divorced mum took advantage of Thatchers sell off) and stories from my ex-inlaws about being treated with jealous  contempt by ex council neighbours because they bought thier home.

In any case pensuoners who have paid their dues should be treated a hell of a lot better by the government than they are...

 

100% agree.

 

Unfortunately they tend to vote for it so I don't have much sympathy really. In doing so they also have made it very hard for my generation.

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Ron Burgundy
9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

How does every other country in Europe fund it?

 

They make their citizens' lives and wellbeing a priority and fit everything else in around that.

 

We're the crappiest country in Europe for pensions, we can surely accept it's affordable to do better for Scottish pensioners 

I honesty don't know how they afford it and would love to see it increase. If it's viable then the SNP should surely explain how they would do this.

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AlimOzturk

Talk of Salmond and Galloway debating with Andrew Neil hosting. That’ll be interesting. 

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4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Talk of Salmond and Galloway debating with Andrew Neil hosting. That’ll be interesting. 

 

There's something quute disheartening about these old men continuing to cling on to past glories and looking for relevance. I agree it could be entertaining and they'd both destroy some of the other leaders in an open debate if they're given the chance. Which is probably why they won't be.

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8 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Talk of Salmond and Galloway debating with Andrew Neil hosting. That’ll be interesting. 

I’ll regain more respect for Salmond if he dresses up as a cat for this. 

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AlimOzturk
2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

There's something quute disheartening about these old men continuing to cling on to past glories and looking for relevance. I agree it could be entertaining and they'd both destroy some of the other leaders in an open debate if they're given the chance. Which is probably why they won't be.


All about air time for them both. This will gather more interest than the leaders debate the other week. 

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3 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:


All about air time for them both. This will gather more interest than the leaders debate the other week. 

 

I think you're probably right about that.

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Pans Jambo
19 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Different systems in different countries though. Something like 30% of pensioner earnings in the UK  come from private employer pensions compared with next to nothing in France,  Germany,  Spain etc.  We were encouraged, from 1988 onwards, to contract out of SERPS and pay reduced NI contributions in return.  I started working in pensions in that year and the idea was to reduce the future burden on the State and make people responsible for their own provision.

 

But I thought we lived in the 5th richest country in the world?

 

Our pension is shite because we have a "different system"? Lets change it back then? Do they WANT to change it back? Do they feck! Tories gonna tory!

 

Is this also the "different system" that has meant Scottish oil is worth LESS than equivalent oil from any other country on the face of the planet?

 

A state pension is NOT a Burden...it's a responsibility to their citizens for paying into their coffers for 50 odd years!

Some folk really do zip up the back!

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Pans Jambo
16 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

The older generation, who have paid tax and NIC for thier working life? And some who fought in a war?

 

The cheap housing wasn't cheap in thier day, and company, private pensions are not aways all they are cracked up to be...

 

OAPs choosing between heat or eat is an actual thing...you come across as a wee bit selfish in the above post...IMO and no offence meant...

I think I read that if AVERAGE salaries had kept up with house prices the UK's average pay would be £88,000 P/A.

 

Houses are ridiculously expensive and for many reasons but mainly Thatchers right to buy was supercharged in the 80's which led to a lack of social housing, greedy land owners selling green belt land at a premium to housing developers, rip off private landlords who charge an absolute fortune for private rents meaning folk cant even save for a deposit and the fact that not enough houses are being built to satisfy demand.

 

Everyone knows it but as long as the cash keeps rolling in the powers that be wont do anything about it.

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Smithee
36 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

A state pension is NOT a Burden...it's a responsibility to their citizens for paying into their coffers for 50 odd years!

 

Exactly. And the How do we pay for it question is missing the point - no one asks how you find the rent money, it's the priority. You pay that first and fit everything else around it. And that's how it should be for the citizens of our country, treat them right and then fit everything else in.

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Captain Slog

Im 52, and as i understand it, I've been paying for the pension paid out to all the existing pensioners all my working life, and been happy to do so.  I may be wrong, please correct if i am, but i think current pensions are paid from by a proportion of the current years total NI contributions for the uk.

 

And while I fully expect the younger generation to contribute to my pension when i hit 67, because that's how the system works, I do think it is completely unfair on them.  The working population by age is getting smaller, the amount of pensioners to pay for is getting much larger, and even though i collect my pension two years later than originally promised by the government, this system is a huge burden to place on those younger than us.

 

If only we had to Norges bank set up in the sixties to help with this.

 

And also - my German company pension still pays out at 60, and i know France pays out their state pension at 60 - does anyone know what their state models are to fund it, always struck me as hugely unfair people in the UK have to work 7 years longer than Europeans.

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Ron Burgundy
31 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Exactly. And the How do we pay for it question is missing the point - no one asks how you find the rent money, it's the priority. You pay that first and fit everything else around it. And that's how it should be for the citizens of our country, treat them right and then fit everything else in.

I think everyone would love a bigger state pension but to not question how it's paid for and what we would have to sacrifice is naïve.

 

Do the other countries that pay out earlier and bigger amounts have their own version of the NHS? Genuine question, and would people be willing to sacrifice that for a larger and earlier pension?

 

Not looking for a cyber pagger just genuinely wondering.

 

I would happily see councils held more accountable for their gross mismanagement of funds and unnecessary vanity projects cancelled in order to pay for it.

 

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Smithee
4 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I think everyone would love a bigger state pension but to not question how it's paid for and what we would have to sacrifice is naïve.

 

Do the other countries that pay out earlier and bigger amounts have their own version of the NHS? Genuine question, and would people be willing to sacrifice that for a larger and earlier pension?

 

Not looking for a cyber pagger just genuinely wondering.

 

I would happily see councils held more accountable for their gross mismanagement of funds and unnecessary vanity projects cancelled in order to pay for it.

 

It's a secondary question for me, practically everything is less important than giving our pensioners a half decent quality of life.

 

 

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Auld Reekin'
28 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I think everyone would love a bigger state pension but to not question how it's paid for and what we would have to sacrifice is naïve.

 

Do the other countries that pay out earlier and bigger amounts have their own version of the NHS? Genuine question, and would people be willing to sacrifice that for a larger and earlier pension?

 

Not looking for a cyber pagger just genuinely wondering.

 

I would happily see councils held more accountable for their gross mismanagement of funds and unnecessary vanity projects cancelled in order to pay for it.

 

 

I'm no expert on this, but as far as I know both Germany and Spain - to give two examples - have state-run healthcare systems, paid for by NI contributions, or their equivalent of that. In both countries, as long as you are a citizen or have residency rights and your NI / NI-equivalent contributions are up-to-date, you get whatever healthcare you need, "free" at the point of delivery.

 

Both countries pay higher state pensions than the UK.

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Pans Jambo
37 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

I'm no expert on this, but as far as I know both Germany and Spain - to give two examples - have state-run healthcare systems, paid for by NI contributions, or their equivalent of that. In both countries, as long as you are a citizen or have residency rights and your NI / NI-equivalent contributions are up-to-date, you get whatever healthcare you need, "free" at the point of delivery.

 

Both countries pay higher state pensions than the UK.

I think Zimbabwe pays a better state pension than Boris and Co does...

 

(Not really but you get the point I'm driving here).

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