The rise and fall of The SNP.

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Whilst those who were proven to have lied in court are protected by the same system that saw him jailed.

Meanwhile anti AS bloggers and reporters were allowed, and in some cases encouraged to broadcast and leak the prosecution case into public eye, all under the safe protection of Scottish judiciary. 

Seems fair. 

Should he not have got jail for blatant contempt of court?

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Fair enough, and you'll carry the credibility that your stance commands.

 

Too right 👍

 

Don't get suckered in by people- everyone is in it for themselves

[coconut doug]

35 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

He was warned and basically gave the courts the finger with his actions. 

Sends a clear message like they did down South with Yaxley Lennon.

 

Absolute rubbish.

[Jeffros Furios]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

SNP losing Regional List Share and Regional List Seats, the big bloody losers.

All those graphs are good numbers for the SNP but not good enough to call another referendum. 

If the want nearer 60% of the vote before calling thats a long way off .

As I've said previously let's get a vote in 18mths so the country can move on from the endless bickering .

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, Jeffros Furios said:

All those graphs are good numbers for the SNP but not good enough to call another referendum. 

If the want nearer 60% of the vote before calling thats a long way off .

As I've said previously let's get a vote in 18mths so the country can move on from the endless bickering .

 

Why can't everyone who wants Independence have their own parliament set up in Glasgow ? iScotland is going to be run by Glasgow anyway.

 

Take the Weeg vote out and Indyref2 is nothing.

[coconut doug]

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Should he not have got jail for blatant contempt of court?

 

He went to considerable lengths to avoid jigsaw identification. Other people actually named some of the alphabet women and others left little to the imagination regarding their identity. He commissioned a survey to find out where people had learned of the alphabet women's identities and found that those who knew had found out from the papers and Dani Garavelli in particular. 

    She appeared on TV and wrote various articles repeatedly inferring that Salmond was guilty as well as providing detail about the women's identity. You have a first minister demanding that he apologise for things he was found not to have done. These acts constitute contempt of court but these people will never be prosecuted. Murray is a danger to the establishment and a warning to anybody else who thinks they might get ideas above their station. 

[Unknown user]

42 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

He went to considerable lengths to avoid jigsaw identification. Other people actually named some of the alphabet women and others left little to the imagination regarding their identity. He commissioned a survey to find out where people had learned of the alphabet women's identities and found that those who knew had found out from the papers and Dani Garavelli in particular. 

    She appeared on TV and wrote various articles repeatedly inferring that Salmond was guilty as well as providing detail about the women's identity. You have a first minister demanding that he apologise for things he was found not to have done. These acts constitute contempt of court but these people will never be prosecuted. Murray is a danger to the establishment and a warning to anybody else who thinks they might get ideas above their station. 

 

44 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

He went to considerable lengths to avoid jigsaw identification. Other people actually named some of the alphabet women and others left little to the imagination regarding their identity. He commissioned a survey to find out where people had learned of the alphabet women's identities and found that those who knew had found out from the papers and Dani Garavelli in particular. 

    She appeared on TV and wrote various articles repeatedly inferring that Salmond was guilty as well as providing detail about the women's identity. You have a first minister demanding that he apologise for things he was found not to have done. These acts constitute contempt of court but these people will never be prosecuted. Murray is a danger to the establishment and a warning to anybody else who thinks they might get ideas above their station. 

I read that two courts, four judges found him guilty, are we saying that all were corrupt or is it that he's been charged and others haven't? I'm not arguing that others shouldn't face charges but he must have known at least how close to the wind he was sailing, he chose how to write his blog, and being so high profile of course those prosecuting would go after him first and make the an example of him.

What's of more interest to me is if that's the end of it or if there'll be any other convictions, that'll tell us if he's been targeted.

[Konrad von Carstein]

On 11/05/2021 at 07:23, weehammy said:

Relax mate. You’re only the second most self-regarding and intellectually superior poster on here. 

 

 To quote one poster's sig, I am "intensely relaxed". 

If you think I'm intellectually superior to you then that's on you my dear fellow.  

[Unknown user]

On 11/05/2021 at 07:23, weehammy said:

Relax mate. You’re only the second most self-regarding and intellectually superior poster on here. 

 

Aw that's nice

[Cade]

1 hour ago, Mysterion said:

Thanks for sharing this. 

 

Great way of visualising the vote share. 

It really shows how Proportional Representation helps to get a wide variety of opinions. 

 

I am of the opinion that a coalition of some form is better for the country and allows for a better variety of ideas. I am not anti SNP but i think political parties need to be kept in check. 

Really shows that Labour have been in constant decline ever since the Scottish Parliament was reconvened in 1999.

 

And you can really see the effect that going into coalition with the Tories had on the LibDems in 2010.

 

And that the Tories only started going upwards after they remodelled themselves as a single issue party of protest with their one and only policy being "independence never", with their raise only happening after the 2014 IndyRef.

 

 

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Really shows that Labour have been in constant decline ever since the Scottish Parliament was reconvened in 1999.

 

And you can really see the effect that going into coalition with the Tories had on the LibDems in 2010.

 

And that the Tories only started going upwards after they remodelled themselves as a single issue party of protest with their one and only policy being "independence never", with their raise only happening after the 2014 IndyRef.

 

 

 

I hadn't really though about Labour being in permanent vote decline since 99 and that visual shows why as the PR list vote obscured their performance from 2011. 

 

Lib Dems going native killed their support base in Scotland and UK - they had an opportunity and gave the Tories a free ride for the most part to impose austerity policies.  I understand change was their factor but they had UK Labour over a barrel and could have significantly shaped policy instead of token plastic bags policies in the South. 

 

The Tory single party issue is effective and blindsides people on their actual policies and their own MP incompetence. Can't argue that it gets votes but Labour need to be ruthless and make a decision in Scotland to attack the Tories to take votes back.

 

I'd argue that if Scottish Labour want to get back into power they should probably start supporting Indie now - if they delivered it they'd probably take a significant chunk of SNP vote back in the 2026 parliament.

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 hours ago, Smithee said:

Should he not have got jail for blatant contempt of court?

I would have hoped he would have been treated exactly the same as every other Blogger. I don't believe this is the case. 

However, we can all have own opinions and I am not going to disagree or argue anymore about anything. It's not worth it. 

[Cade]

 

[felix]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I read that two courts, four judges found him guilty, are we saying that all were corrupt or is it that he's been charged and others haven't? I'm not arguing that others shouldn't face charges but he must have known at least how close to the wind he was sailing, he chose how to write his blog, and being so high profile of course those prosecuting would go after him first and make the an example of him.

What's of more interest to me is if that's the end of it or if there'll be any other convictions, that'll tell us if he's been targeted.

Craig Murray has a history of being targeted. His latest conviction's another example. He's also been accused of sexual misconduct , with no grounds or basis in fact. ...

 

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I read that two courts, four judges found him guilty, are we saying that all were corrupt or is it that he's been charged and others haven't? I'm not arguing that others shouldn't face charges but he must have known at least how close to the wind he was sailing, he chose how to write his blog, and being so high profile of course those prosecuting would go after him first and make the an example of him.

What's of more interest to me is if that's the end of it or if there'll be any other convictions, that'll tell us if he's been targeted.

 

I'm not sure about 2 courts and having read his blog and seen the lengths he went to to avoid jigsaw identification i know that what he said was deliberately framed within the statements made by Dani Garavelli i.e. he did not say anything that she had not said. He did this deliberately to protect himself from prosecution in the mistaken view that if they prosecuted him they would have to prosecute others. A bit naive certainly but other bloggers sought clarification of what they could and could not say but no guidance was offered. 

        Lady Dorrian the judge respnsible for sending Murray to jail stated that  Murray's actions risked compromising women who had been the victims of sexual crimes but he did not as Salmond was not convicted of any. The same Lady Dorrian is trying to convince the justiciary that sexual offence trials including rape should be carried out without a jury presumably because of the jury failing to convict Salmond. 

  If Salmond is anything at all he will now give his support to somebody who supported him in what appears to be a perversion of natural justice. 

 Its not in any way clear how Murray has shown contempt. The prosecution cannot be explicit about how it might have happened without revealing identities. The best they could do was find two pieces of unrelated information one of which was something that might apply to almost anybody and link that to a specific piece of information given in the evidence. The prosecution cannot demonstrate the contempt without committing it themselves and have chosen to progress the prosecution on information that does not specifically identify an individual and so would imo defeat the prosecution. 

[Don Dan]

I wonder if Murray has grounds to appeal this sentence. 

[XB52]

43 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

  If Salmond is anything at all he will now give his support to somebody who supported him in what appears to be a perversion of natural justice. 

 

I think I've found a flaw in your plan. AS cares about AS. Also, on the case, Murray was told to remove his blogs but refused and left them up for weeks. He deserves all he gets

[coconut doug]

2 hours ago, XB52 said:

I think I've found a flaw in your plan. AS cares about AS. Also, on the case, Murray was told to remove his blogs but refused and left them up for weeks. He deserves all he gets

 

I don't have a plan why would i?   Of course As cares about AS everybody cares about themselves why should he be any different? I think your implication is that he only cares about himself which is a different thing. I am aware this is a widely held view which is why i said  

If Salmond is anything at all he will now give his support to somebody who supported him in what appears to be a perversion of natural justice.  Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

Who told Murray to remove his blog and on whose authority did they issue this warning? Do you not wish to live in country where people are free to report on both sides of court cases. he didn't reveal anything that hadn't already been revealed in the papers. The very same papers that were subsidised by millions of pounds of taxpayers money at the behest of the FM. Did you read his blog? Do you know how he managed to avoid jigsaw identification? Do you know what he did to demonstrate that his blog was not reponsible for the jigsaw identification?

 Do you think he deserved all he got when he exposed extraordinary rendition and the UK's part in torture. 

 

[Ulysses]

16 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I'm afraid neither the SNP or Westminster make that easy. Both spout lies and misinformation.

 

Yet neither Westminster nor the SNP spouted lies and misinformation about the Greek debt crisis.  People need to take responsibility for their own critical faculties rather than being swept up in whatever propaganda bubble others would make for them.

[Ulysses]

16 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Im old enough to remember when the IMF bailed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland out.

 

The wait what now?

[Ulysses]

15 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

As do all politicians, apart from those in EU apparently. 

They are friends and partners, act honourably and are bastions of morality. 

 

 

 

The EU are friends and partners of Greece, Portugal and Ireland - and we are friends and partners of theirs.  That's why the EU helped them get over problems with their public finances.  You don't have to like that, you just have to understand that it happened.

[Ulysses]

14 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Why do you need to do that ?

 

Do you believe eveything you read / only what you want to believe ?

 

You seem to have very strong opinions about the Union but are not part of it. Why is that ?

 

Why do I need to do what?

 

I don't believe everything I read.  I don't only believe what I want to believe.

 

What Union?  The UK?  Or the EU?

[Ulysses]

12 hours ago, weehammy said:

Relax mate. You’re only the second most self-regarding and intellectually superior poster on here. Justin beats you hands down.

 

 

Not second, third.  Sheesh.

[Swahili Jambo]

Why can't people just accept the people of Scotland have voted and voted big for Pro Indy parties with a big, nae huge majority vote in politic terms.  Tick tock.   

[John Findlay]

6 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

The wait what now?

My apology i of course meant Northern Ireland. 

[Maroon Sailor]

5 hours ago, Swahili Jambo said:

Why can't people just accept the people of Scotland have voted and voted big for Pro Indy parties with a big, nae huge majority vote in politic terms.  Tick tock.   

 

Maybe because some people voting for an iScotland are unaware of the challenges it faces. It's not going to be a land of milk and honey. But go it alone, no safety net of a Union whether it be the UK or EU.

[AlimOzturk]

I think if Labour said they support a second referendum but still support the union they would take a significant chunk of the green list vote. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by AlimOzturk

[Konrad von Carstein]

7 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Not second, third.  Sheesh.

[Maroon Sailor]

1 hour ago, AlimOzturk said:

I think if Labour said they support a second referendum but still support the union they would take a significant chunk of the green list vote. 

 

They shouldn't have to

 

We are supposed to be voting to have a decent government.

[Jeffros Furios]

7 hours ago, Swahili Jambo said:

Why can't people just accept the people of Scotland have voted and voted big for Pro Indy parties with a big, nae huge majority vote in politic terms.  Tick tock.   

When do you want a referendum ? 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Maybe because some people voting for an iScotland are unaware of the challenges it faces. It's not going to be a land of milk and honey. But go it alone, no safety net of a Union whether it be the UK or EU.

 

You pretty much said yourself yesterday that you're only arguing what you believe, that you haven't done anything to educate yourself on the subject. 'You either believe in something or you don't.'

 

Now you're raising awareness about a scenario that you haven't even bothered to raise your own awareness of?

 

This happened.

 

 

On 11/05/2021 at 00:00, Ulysses said:

Argue against independence, or for it if that's your thing, but either way try to do it from an informed position.

 

23 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Why do you need to do that ?

 

Do you believe eveything you read / only what you want to believe ?

 

You seem to have very strong opinions about the Union but are not part of it. Why is that ?

 

22 hours ago, Smithee said:

What, are you asking why you need to avoid arguing from a position of ignorance?

 

22 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Why argue ?

 

You either believe in something or you don't.

 

22 hours ago, Smithee said:

Fair enough, and you'll carry the credibility that your stance commands.

 

 

[Maroon Sailor]

4 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

You pretty much said yourself yesterday that you're only arguing what you believe, that you haven't done anything to educate yourself on the subject. 'You either believe in something or you don't.'

 

Now you're raising awareness about a scenario that you haven't even bothered to raise your own awareness of?

 

This happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So all I've said it's going to have challenges and it's not going to be this land of milk and honey.

 

You don't need to be educated on anything to know this FFS !

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Maroon Sailor

[Boris]

3 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

So all I've said it's going to have challenges and it's not going to be this land of milk and honey.

 

You don't need to be educated on anything to know this FFS !

 

 

I think folk realise that. They may also be of the opinion that neither is the UK. So stick or twist it's going to be shitty either way. Taking responsibility for the situation is maybe the first step forward. As it stands, Scotland has no say.

[Auld Reekin']

17 minutes ago, Boris said:

I think folk realise that. They may also be of the opinion that neither is the UK. So stick or twist it's going to be shitty either way. Taking responsibility for the situation is maybe the first step forward. As it stands, Scotland has no say.

 

Exactly. Unlike in 2014, there is no status-quo to stick with: Brexit changed all that.

 

There are already many "challenges" becoming all too evident as a result of it and - in my opinion - those we are encountering just now are merely the tip of an enormous iceberg. Maybe in 40 or 50 years time, as Rees-Mogg candidly (for once) admitted, the UK will start to see the benefits of Brexit, but that's not a timescale I'm going to see-out and nor will a lot of the current population of the UK.

 

I would much rather take my chances with the challenges an independent Scotland would indeed face rather than continue to be be comprehensively lied to, misgoverned, and treated with contemptuous dismissal by the current Westminster government.

[Cade]

Brexit is going to cause huge upheaval over many years.

Independence may also cause upheaval.

So if we're going to be exposed to upheaval anyways, why not go Independent and have the upheaval on our own terms and with full powers to address it in the best interests of those that live and work here instead of in the best interests of people that live and work in the Home Counties of England?

 

It's perfectly logical.

Smaller nations are more adaptable and quicker to change and overcome challenges than monolithic entities like the UK.

[DETTY29]

33 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Exactly. Unlike in 2014, there is no status-quo to stick with: Brexit changed all that.

 

There are already many "challenges" becoming all too evident as a result of it and - in my opinion - those we are encountering just now are merely the tip of an enormous iceberg. Maybe in 40 or 50 years time, as Rees-Mogg candidly (for once) admitted, the UK will start to see the benefits of Brexit, but that's not a timescale I'm going to see-out and nor will a lot of the current population of the UK.

 

I would much rather take my chances with the challenges an independent Scotland would indeed face rather than continue to be be comprehensively lied to, misgoverned, and treated with contemptuous dismissal by the current Westminster government.

It would be an intriguing prospect if we (I.e all UK) were given an option.

 

You are either 4 nations to go your own way, or we become 1 'full' UK state.  No more England, Scotland  Wales, Northern Ireland (bit more complicated).  We are in absolutely everything together as one in every aspect of our lives.

 

England imo couldn't jettonise the other 3 quick enough to maintain their own individual identity.

 

Can't remember his name but an English political commentator was on 5L yesterday saying beware Scotland. You are now part of United Kingdom of England.

 

Johnson pre PM days would have got rid of us in a heartbeat.  He just doesn't want to be the PM that would be held responsible for it's break up.  That's on someone else.

Edited May 12, 2021 by DETTY29

[Weakened Offender]

10 hours ago, Jeffros Furios said:

When do you want a referendum ? 

 

Tomorrow. 

[Jeffros Furios]

41 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Tomorrow. 

I would prefer one in approx 18 months ,  wouldn't really want to drag it out for 2/3 years .

[Auld Reekin']

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Brexit is going to cause huge upheaval over many years.

Independence may also cause upheaval.

So if we're going to be exposed to upheaval anyways, why not go Independent and have the upheaval on our own terms and with full powers to address it in the best interests of those that live and work here instead of in the best interests of people that live and work in the Home Counties of England?

 

It's perfectly logical.

Smaller nations are more adaptable and quicker to change and overcome challenges than monolithic entities like the UK.

 

Yep.  

 

1 hour ago, DETTY29 said:

It would be an intriguing prospect if we (I.e all UK) were given an option.

 

You are either 4 nations to go your own way, or we become 1 'full' UK state.  No more England, Scotland  Wales, Northern Ireland (bit more complicated).  We are in absolutely everything together as one in every aspect of our lives.

 

England imo couldn't jettonise the other 3 quick enough to maintain their own individual identity.

 

Can't remember his name but an English political commentator was on 5L yesterday saying beware Scotland. You are now part of United Kingdom of England.

 

Johnson pre PM days would have got rid of us in a heartbeat.  He just doesn't want to be the PM that would be held responsible for it's break up.  That's on someone else.

 

An intriguing scenario (although thankfully only a theoretical one!), as you say Detty29, particularly with English nationalism now very much on the rise. 

[Maroon Sailor]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

I think folk realise that. They may also be of the opinion that neither is the UK. So stick or twist it's going to be shitty either way. Taking responsibility for the situation is maybe the first step forward. As it stands, Scotland has no say.

 

Scotland has no say ?

 

Feck off

 

We've had our own parliament for 22 years

[Auld Reekin']

5 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Scotland has no say ?

 

Feck off

 

We've had our own parliament for 22 years

 

Scotland certainly had / has no say over the implementation of Brexit, how it is supposed to work, and any future UK trade deals with Outer Mongolia, Papua New Guinea, and Upper Volta. 

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Scotland certainly had / has no say over the implementation of Brexit, how it is supposed to work, and any future UK trade deals with Outer Mongolia, Papua New Guinea, and Upper Volta. 

 

Scotland did have an influence over the implementation of Brexit.

[Auld Reekin']

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Scotland did have an influence over the implementation of Brexit.

 

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

 

As part of the UK Scotland were part of the vote

 

So giggle away

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Maroon Sailor

[Auld Reekin']

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

As part of the UK they were part of the vote

 

   

[Maroon Sailor]

2 minutes ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

   

 

Oh dear

 

It was a UK vote

 

Does that need explaining to you ?

 

Auld Reekin ?

 

How about Just Reekin

[Auld Reekin']

8 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Oh dear

 

It was a UK vote

 

Does that need explaining to you ?

 

Auld Reekin ?

 

How about Just Reekin

 

Yeah, you know what, you're absolutely right: Scotland did have an influence over the implementation of Brexit...

 

"OK, Scotland - do you want Brexit to go ahead?"

 

"No - absolutely not!"

 

"Oh well, tough titty, we're implementing it anyway..."

 

Yep - that sure is some influence, right enough!  

 

(Oh, and by the way, reading the pish you post certainly makes me want to have a few drinks, but I am - sad to say - stone cold.  )

Edited May 12, 2021 by Auld Reekin'

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Yeah, you know what, you're absolutely right: Scotland did have an influence over the implementation of Brexit...

 

"OK, Scotland - do you want Brexit to go ahead?"

 

"No - absolutely not!"

 

"Oh well, tough titty, we're implementing it anyway..."

 

Yep - that sure is some influence, right enough!  

 

(Oh, and by the way, reading the pish you post certainly makes me want to have a few drinks, but I am - sad to say - stone cold.  )

 

It wasn't a Scotland issue 

 

It was a UK national vote - but any excuse eh ?

 

Always the victims

[Auld Reekin']

Just now, Maroon Sailor said:

 

It wasn't a Scotland issue 

 

It was a UK national vote - but any excuse eh ?

 

Always the victims

 

Well, it sure as feck is a "Scotland issue" now that we've been landed with it against our wishes!

 

England and Wales get exactly what they (thought) they wanted, Northern Ireland gets a Brexit-lite / not-really-Brexit-at-all, Scotland gets shafted. Which leads me nicely back to original point that the sooner Scotland becomes independent the better.

 

Anyway, fun though this has all been, I've got better things to do with the rest of my evening than argue the toss with you: there's some good Scandi-noir on catch-up, therefore I bid you good night.  

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Auld Reekin' said:

 

Well, it sure as feck is a "Scotland issue" now that we've been landed with it against our wishes!

 

England and Wales get exactly what they (thought) they wanted, Northern Ireland gets a Brexit-lite / not-really-Brexit-at-all, Scotland gets shafted. Which leads me nicely back to original point that the sooner Scotland becomes independent the better.

 

Anyway, fun though this has all been, I've got better things to do with the rest of my evening than argue the toss with you: there's some good Scandi-noir on catch-up, therefore I bid you good night.  

 

Oh dear

 

Against our wishes !

 

Who's wishes ?

 

Your wishes ?

 

Joe Bloggs wishes ?

 

Pure and utter Sturgeon talk

 

Laughable not to mention pathetic

 

BRexit

 

BRitain