Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[graygo]

4 minutes ago, husref musemic said:

We have a world beating death rate. 

But 0.0001% better than England so all's good.

 

 

Jesus!!  You had him, you really had him. Then you used some random made up shite percentage and blew it. ☹️

[Ray Gin]

7 minutes ago, husref musemic said:

We have a world beating death rate. 

But 0.0001% better than England so all's good.

 

 

So what should we be doing instead to improve the death rate, other than just making up random percentages like yourself? 

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 hour ago, Brian Dundas said:

Except that the all these scientists were telling us it was going to get worse in the winter, they predicted it. In the first wave with no restrictions it took only a few days to make that jump in deaths. 

Hospitals are as full every winter and deaths, unfortunately,  increase. We don't need scientists to tell us that. We do need them to stop making up figures like 4k deaths a day, purely to scaremonger. 

[frankblack]

30 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

What would you like to see the SG doing?

 

How about breaking down the track and trace data by sector? Then explain why they left regions such as Glasgow on tier 3 for weeks when their data was 3 times the infection rates of other tier 3 cities.

Edited November 17, 2020 by frankblack

[Malinga the Swinga]

5 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

So what should we be doing instead to improve the death rate, other than just making up random percentages like yourself? 

Someone a few pages back posted figures from other European countries similar to us in size. Compared to them, our death total was horrendous and they haven't stumbled from lockdown to smaller restrictions to a 16 day break that became a never ending tiered system. Should we not look at them and see what we could learn. Taking what England do and tweaking it is our only ambition. It simply isn't good enough. 

[SE16 3LN]

17 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

More illiterate journalism than a misprint. A bit like this - "The travel ban does not prevent people travelling between tier one or two areas, but does cover these people going into theirs three and four."

I noticed that 😀

[Malinga the Swinga]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

How about breaking down the track and trace data by sector? Then explain why they left regions such as Glasgow on tier 3 for weeks when their data was 3 times the infection rates of other tier 3 cities.

Why be transparent when you can do whatever you want. No justification apart from We said so. 

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

42 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

What would you like to see the SG doing?

An apology for their mistakes of how they have handled the Covid-19 pandemic Announcing how they plan to rescue the economy in Scotland and next year's pending unemployment and health crisis for starters 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Ma Roon

[hughesie27]

2 minutes ago, Ma Roon said:

Ann apology for their mistake s of how they have handled the Covid-19 pandemic Announcing how they plan to rescue the economy in Scotland and next year's pending unemployment and health crisis for starters 

So you have no idea is the answer. 

[hughesie27]

8 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Someone a few pages back posted figures from other European countries similar to us in size. Compared to them, our death total was horrendous and they haven't stumbled from lockdown to smaller restrictions to a 16 day break that became a never ending tiered system. Should we not look at them and see what we could learn. Taking what England do and tweaking it is our only ambition. It simply isn't good enough. 

How does our general population health compare to those countries? Presumably has an impact.  A like for like comparison isn't exactly helpful.

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

How does our general population health compare to those countries? Presumably has an impact.  A like for like comparison isn't exactly helpful.

Fair enough but we must look beyond being slightly better than England which is all we ever look to do. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

1 minute ago, Brian Dundas said:

Go and look at the number of deaths and the rate of increase of deaths before you ridicule that figure too much. 

4k a day😲. What rates do you want me to look at? It was made up garbage. The highest daily deaths I have seen were about a 7th of that figure. London, for example,  in recent  weeks is recording 0% extra deaths over and above the 5 year average. 

[Governor Tarkin]

7 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

That’s the problem with devolution, you are tied together in so many ways that other than tinkering round the edges all you’ll ever be is slightly better/worse than England. Which is fine when they get things right . 

 

 

 

Absolutely, it's been a disaster, as was pointed out recently.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Governor Tarkin

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

That’s the problem with devolution, you are tied together in so many ways that other than tinkering round the edges all you’ll ever be is slightly better/worse than England. Which is fine when they get things right . 

 

I do not mean to use that to dismiss the failings there has been in Scotland. 

 

I'm not buying that excuse.

 

They have their furlough in place till March.  This is all down to an abject failure of political management.

[SE16 3LN]

8 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Absolutely, it's been a disaster, as was pointed out recently.

 

 

😄

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

The recent furlough shambles exactly backs up my point. 

 

Fault lies on both sides as the SG is always trying to pick a fight with WM.

 

So, given that furlough has remained in place and will be till March at least, why have the SG been an abject failure at managing the virus?

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

The Covid deaths trajectory was going to be close to the 4K deaths a day by Christmas as was reported in the press. Now that doesn’t mean it would have got there, nor will it now as they have increased measures nationwide. 
 

As to excess deaths it is increasing but this wave there is an overlap with Covid deaths. 1700 excess deaths in the UK last week. 

But that's why modelling means nothing. It used outdated figures and it assumed the growth rate would continue at the current rate. Extend the trajectory and we'll all die. It's simplistic nonsense. There are limited numbers susceptible to the virus and of vulnerable people who will suffer severe illness. It doesn't follow a trajectory. Recent modelling suggested hospital patients in Lanarkshire, I think, would be between 330 - 1100 in a few weeks (capacity around 1k). What  possible use do figures like that have?

[Ray Gin]

56 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Someone a few pages back posted figures from other European countries similar to us in size. Compared to them, our death total was horrendous and they haven't stumbled from lockdown to smaller restrictions to a 16 day break that became a never ending tiered system. Should we not look at them and see what we could learn. Taking what England do and tweaking it is our only ambition. It simply isn't good enough. 

 

Which countries in Europe are doing things radically different from us with great success? 

[Robbofan99]

28 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

But that's why modelling means nothing. It used outdated figures and it assumed the growth rate would continue at the current rate. Extend the trajectory and we'll all die. It's simplistic nonsense. There are limited numbers susceptible to the virus and of vulnerable people who will suffer severe illness. It doesn't follow a trajectory. Recent modelling suggested hospital patients in Lanarkshire, I think, would be between 330 - 1100 in a few weeks (capacity around 1k). What  possible use do figures like that have?

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

21 minutes ago, Robbofan99 said:

 

🤣🤣

[Cairneyhill Jambo]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Fault lies on both sides as the SG is always trying to pick a fight with WM.

 

So, given that furlough has remained in place and will be till March at least, why have the SG been an abject failure at managing the virus?

Really?? https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-furlough-scheme-in-england-extended-until-december-at-80-but-critics-say-move-is-overdue-12120363

 

But it wasn't offered to the other devolved administrations when they needed it. 

 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Which countries in Europe are doing things radically different from us with great success? 

 

Is anyone?  We're currently on level 5 restrictions.  Hospitality and non-essential retail are closed, and people have to work from home unless you're listed as essential.  Schools are open, religious services are closed, and travel is restricted to 5 km except for a limited list of specified purposes.  We had a 14-day incidence rate of over 300 per 100,000 three weeks ago.  That has fallen to about 125, but our 5-day rate is now rising again.  We've had 85 deaths in 17 days in November.  That's for a population of not quite 5 million.

[frankblack]

3 hours ago, Cairneyhill Jambo said:

Really?? https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-furlough-scheme-in-england-extended-until-december-at-80-but-critics-say-move-is-overdue-12120363

 

But it wasn't offered to the other devolved administrations when they needed it. 

 

 

Read my reply again.  I wasn't defending either side.

 

This is going off topic from the argument I was debating over whether being devolved rather than independent is an excuse for the SG's handling of covid.

[frankblack]

4 hours ago, Brian Dundas said:

Has it even been two weeks since the furlough was extended. 

 

Furlough didn't stop so I am curious in what ways being independent would have avoided the chaos we are in?

 

How would it have caused the SG to act quicker over Glasgow and surrounding areas?

[GinRummy]

8 hours ago, the general said:

 

Fair points .. recycling though? Like I say crazy stuff! That is pandering

I find a lot of it a bit silly. 

[Weakened Offender]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

This is going off topic from the argument 

 

Shameless. 🤣

[GinRummy]

4 hours ago, Cairneyhill Jambo said:

Really?? https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-furlough-scheme-in-england-extended-until-december-at-80-but-critics-say-move-is-overdue-12120363

 

But it wasn't offered to the other devolved administrations when they needed it. 

 

How can you say that when it never really ended. I get that it’s continuation was because England needed it but furlough didn’t end. 

[Brighton Jambo]

8 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

What would you like to see the SG doing?

I would like to see them be consistent and actually get this right. 

 

Nicola Sturgeon said that where they weren’t certain on which Tier an area should be in they would err on the side of caution.  By that logic and based on the data Lanarkshire and Glasgow should have been in Tier 4 weeks ago.  Instead she ignored her own guidance and now after being in restrictions for longer than any other part of Scotland we are only just going into Tier 4.  I can’t be bothered with why they did that I will leave that to others to speculate all I know is that the decision making is shambolic.  

[Weakened Offender]

57 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

How can you say that when it never really ended. I get that it’s continuation was because England needed it but furlough didn’t end. 

 

It was ending in October. Wales and Scotland almost begged for it to be extended, as did the North East and North West. 

 

When it was announced that the South East was facing the same restrictions as the rest of the country it was extended. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Weakened Offender

[mutley]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Furlough didn't stop so I am curious in what ways being independent would have avoided the chaos we are in?

 

How would it have caused the SG to act quicker over Glasgow and surrounding areas?

I thought sturgeon wanted to close the borders and airports but didn’t have the power to do it

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

Some rumours going there will be a five day relaxation period over Christmas. The view seems to be multiple households will be allowed to form a bubble for five days. Then back to where you were, with increased restrictions likely after this period, 

 

Measures will be U.K. wide.

Just more bollocks making it up as they go along, Covid-19 is having a Christmas 🤶 holiday now 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Ma Roon

[Ray Gin]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I would like to see them be consistent and actually get this right. 

 

Nicola Sturgeon said that where they weren’t certain on which Tier an area should be in they would err on the side of caution.  By that logic and based on the data Lanarkshire and Glasgow should have been in Tier 4 weeks ago.  Instead she ignored her own guidance and now after being in restrictions for longer than any other part of Scotland we are only just going into Tier 4.  I can’t be bothered with why they did that I will leave that to others to speculate all I know is that the decision making is shambolic.  

 

She said from the outset that tier 4 is a last resort and she wanted to give places a chance in tier 3 first to see if they could get the numbers down. 

 

You are now enraged that mini Hitler Sturgeon hasn't been draconian enough. Some serious flip flopping going on in here from the attitudes shown several weeks ago. 

 

'We should open everything up! She's power mad and just wants to kill everyone's fun!' 

 

to

 

'This is a shambles! We should have been in tier 4 weeks ago!'

[frankblack]

43 minutes ago, mutley said:

I thought sturgeon wanted to close the borders and airports but didn’t have the power to do it

 

You can't close the borders as we have no physical border controls with England.  How are you going to stop people getting across?  That has to be UK or not at all.

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

It was ending in October. Wales and Scotland almost begged for it to be extended, as did the North East and North West. 

 

When it was announced that the South East was facing the same restrictions as the rest of the country it was extended. 

 

The point is it didn't end so furlough has nothing to do with the rise in infections and mismanagement of the virus by the SG.

 

The SG chose to allow Universities to operate without scrutiny of their accomodation or testing of the students, and schools seem to be riddled notably in the west coast.

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

She said from the outset that tier 4 is a last resort and she wanted to give places a chance in tier 3 first to see if they could get the numbers down. 

 

You are now enraged that mini Hitler Sturgeon hasn't been draconian enough. Some serious flip flopping going on in here from the attitudes shown several weeks ago. 

 

'We should open everything up! She's power mad and just wants to kill everyone's fun!' 

 

to

 

'This is a shambles! We should have been in tier 4 weeks ago!'

 

Some serious backtracking from you here.

 

Any excuse will do as no blame can ever fall on the SG.  How are you getting on with finding the stats on hospitality related infections in Scotland to back your claims yesterday?

[Dazo]

3 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

She said from the outset that tier 4 is a last resort and she wanted to give places a chance in tier 3 first to see if they could get the numbers down. 

 

You are now enraged that mini Hitler Sturgeon hasn't been draconian enough. Some serious flip flopping going on in here from the attitudes shown several weeks ago. 

 

'We should open everything up! She's power mad and just wants to kill everyone's fun!' 

 

to

 

'This is a shambles! We should have been in tier 4 weeks ago!'

Why was it the last resort ? The numbers in the west suggested it should have been a very easy decision sooner. 
 

I don’t really want to see schools closed but the fact schools are open in our top tier is a joke and is clearly a political decision. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

Some rumours going there will be a five day relaxation period over Christmas. The view seems to be multiple households will be allowed to form a bubble for five days. Then back to where you were, with increased restrictions likely after this period, 

 

Measures will be U.K. wide.

😂

 

Given the strategy so far, I'd reckon that sounds about right. 

 

Clueless and increasingly dangerous. 

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

The point is it didn't end so furlough has nothing to do with the rise in infections and mismanagement of the virus by the SG.

 

The SG chose to allow Universities to operate without scrutiny of their accomodation or testing of the students, and schools seem to be riddled notably in the west coast.

 

Take a look around the world. This is a global problem, not one only happening in Scotland. How do you test tens of thousands of students on a regular basis?

[Victorian]

6 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

She said from the outset that tier 4 is a last resort and she wanted to give places a chance in tier 3 first to see if they could get the numbers down. 

 

You are now enraged that mini Hitler Sturgeon hasn't been draconian enough. Some serious flip flopping going on in here from the attitudes shown several weeks ago. 

 

'We should open everything up! She's power mad and just wants to kill everyone's fun!' 

 

to

 

'This is a shambles! We should have been in tier 4 weeks ago!'

 

The virus mutates and so does the narrative.  

[Ray Gin]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Some serious backtracking from you here.

 

Any excuse will do as no blame can ever fall on the SG.  How are you getting on with finding the stats on hospitality related infections in Scotland to back your claims yesterday?

 

Can you find any stats to show that pubs staying open leads to a drop in cases due to reduced house parties? 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Take a look around the world. This is a global problem, not one only happening in Scotland. How do you test tens of thousands of students on a regular basis?

 

Other countries are managing the situation better and didn't make political decisons on recklessly prioritising education over suppressing the virus.

[Ray Gin]

3 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Why was it the last resort ? The numbers in the west suggested it should have been a very easy decision sooner. 
 

I don’t really want to see schools closed but the fact schools are open in our top tier is a joke and is clearly a political decision. 

 

Why is it a joke? They are open in England and they've gone beyond our tier 4 into full lockdown.

[Ray Gin]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Other countries are managing the situation better and didn't make political decisons on recklessly prioritising education over suppressing the virus.

 

Examples? 

[mutley]

8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You can't close the borders as we have no physical border controls with England.  How are you going to stop people getting across?  That has to be UK or not at all.

You said “I’m curious in to what way being independent would have avoided the chaos we are in”

so if we were independent then we could have closed the borders surely.

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Can you find any stats to show that pubs staying open leads to a drop in cases due to reduced house parties? 

 

Sorry, but not answering that as you refuse to back up your allegation that hospitality was the cause of the rise of infections.  I assume you don't have any evidence and just made it up.

 

Once you give the answer to hospitality I'll find some research on the house parties for you. 👍

[Dazo]

Just now, Ray Gin said:

 

Why is it a joke? They are open in England and they've gone beyond our tier 4 into full lockdown.

Why do you always refer back to England? You’re thoughts on how they have handled things are pretty clear so they aren’t the barometer. I mess of course you are happy just to appear to be doing better than them. You are allowed to judge Nicola as a stand-alone  leader and Scotland as its own country. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, mutley said:

You said “I’m curious in to what way being independent would have avoided the chaos we are in”

so if we were independent then we could have closed the borders surely.

 

Do you know how long the border is with England?  Even the Romans couldn't maintain Hadrian's wall FFS!

[Ray Gin]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Sorry, but not answering that as you refuse to back up your allegation that hospitality was the cause of the rise of infections.  I assume you don't have any evidence and just made it up.

 

Once you give the answer to hospitality I'll find some research on the house parties for you. 👍

 

Quote the part where I said that.

[The Mighty Thor]

7 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

The virus mutates and so does the narrative.  

So should the SG strategy.

 

Instead they are dogmatically adhering to a strategy which hasn't put a dent in the figures in 6 weeks. 

 

 

 

[mutley]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Do you know how long the border is with England?  Even the Romans couldn't maintain Hadrian's wall FFS!

96 miles according to google which in border terms isn’t that big.