Nucky Thompson Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said: Right chaps, recommendations for child friendly beer garden over the Forth, please. Ta. 👍 You should get the train down to Berwick. It takes 40 minutes and the fares are as cheap as chips just now. Most of the pubs are child friendly and a couple of decent restaurants do lunchtime specials. You can get a 2 course Indian for £8.99 and a 3 course Italian for £5.99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull's-eye Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 A vaccine out before Xmas would be a great idea, the gift of a vaccine under the tree would be bloody marvellous. Great times ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said: A vaccine out before Xmas would be a great idea, the gift of a vaccine under the tree would be bloody marvellous. Great times ahead. Rerr. Looking forward to a gift set box of EDT, body spray, shower gel & hypodermic needle. Hope mine's from Joop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 So do the pubs open Next Sunday or Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 33 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said: The access to data is not from the app, that is not available to anyone other than the app itself. The information is from the track and trace data from tests and the manual physical track and trace teams. Without wanting to get all Hamiltony on you, don’t spread misinformation. Read more than the headline. Also only in England so far. That's somewhat reassuring. What is it that makes them think someone isn't following the orders to self isolate and in turn pass the data on to police? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back to 2005 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said: So do the pubs open Next Sunday or Monday. March if we behave like good boys and girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull's-eye Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Victorian said: Rerr. Looking forward to a gift set box of EDT, body spray, shower gel & hypodermic needle. Hope mine's for my Hoop. Being sorted now with special instructions to make yours in enema form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Just now, Brian Dundas said: I think they will have access to everyone who should be isolating’s name and address. Yeh I just read a bit about it. I took it as read based on the posts on here that it was to do the app. Is it the norm that police have access to our medical data? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Jimbo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Taffin said: Yeh I just read a bit about it. I took it as read based on the posts on here that it was to do the app. Is it the norm that police have access to our medical data? Don't believe so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said: Being sorted now with special instructions to make yours in enema form. I'll take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And he’s not praying! Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 33 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said: You can get a 2 course Indian for £8.99 and a 3 course Italian for £5.99 Sounds great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 I would assume and hope that the police in England won't be using the data to trawl through it and systematically check up on folk - they don't have the resources to do this for a start. It could well be used instead if the question of someone's isolation arises through some other avenue and they can hit then the database to check that the person in question should in fact be isolating or not. Anyway, it won't affect us here in Scotland unless the SG decide to do similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Reynolds Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: I have hence why I was asking 🤷🏻♂️ All replies below are linking the app to the police. I didn't even get all the way down the page. Misinformation. Stop being ignorant. 3 hours ago, doctor jambo said: So, a government encourages the population to put a tracker on their phones, then shares this info with law enforcement ? That should lead to everyone deleting the app, frankly. Its all out of control. Really shows why Scotland needs an “upper house” to scrutinise what the sitting govt are doing, because this erosion of democracy and freedom is accelerating at pace 2 hours ago, jonesy said: Well blow me down...a movement and contact tracing app's information - which was heralded as being anonymous and for the benefit of the user only - will be used by the rozzers. Whodathunkit? 2 hours ago, Taffin said: Do we know what sort of saturation the app has on the populace? I wouldn't be surprised if most people don't have it anyway due to concerns about how the data would be used. Despite people professing otherwise, it's turned out that they can, and will, share the data. 2 hours ago, doctor jambo said: Don’t know, I intrinsically distrust tech, anything that can be hacked or used to trace me, record me or film me. I also get the fear anytime anyone does anything “ for my own good “ or to “keep me safe” Usually means treating me like a baby, and imposing something I don’t want. Now we might have the NHS app passing your movement and details of an illness you have to the police? So we will have people monitoring where you are via the app, and if your phone leaves the house the police come for you? Would be tempting to strap my phone to a drone And fly it up a mountain just for giggles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 minute ago, LMc said: All replies below are linking the app to the police. I didn't even get all the way down the page. Misinformation. Stop being ignorant. Now you know what we have to face on here sometimes. Seriously, some folk are just constantly: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Just now, LMc said: All replies below are linking the app to the police. I didn't even get all the way down the page. Misinformation. Stop being ignorant. Yeh apologies, I was just basing it on what others said. Not really sure it matters that much though, does it? The police are being given access your medical data based on you having caught a virus or been exposed to someone else who has. Whether that comes from the app or manual track and trace seems a bit by the by. Either way, it will discourage people from being tested and providing track and trace data which seems counter productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Such a shame we don't have a Swedish style government and populus 'social contract' where the populus does as asked by the government because the populus do believe what the government asks them to do, on the whole is in their best interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said: Louie Brown's. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: What person misinformation is another persons misunderstanding but fair enough. (Docs post was a a question. Taffins was a comment about people not downloading a app) Jonesy I’ll give you but even then. Spreading. Misinformation not for me but as I say fair enough @Brian Dundas or, any others, genuinely they are spreading misinformation you should report them to mods. Also if I have annoyed you wasn’t my intention I just dont see like you do that’s all 🤷🏻♂️ The Docs post despite having a question mark was not a question. It was an invitation to consider the statement he made. The reference to sharing medical info with the law in Scotland is wrong as it's not happening here. That makes it misinformation whether he was aware of that fact or not. You'd think he might know though if he is a doctor. Right wingers desperate to misrepresent at every opportunity imo as they cannot summon facts or reasoning to support their assertions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: Cool right wing conspiracy now 👍 It's so lazy viewing it through a political lens. I've no idea what your political persuasions are. I broadly agree with you on this topic however. I'm probably about as left wing as you'll find. If all of this was actually part of a shift to powerful left wing state control, I'd probably get on board with it. It's not though, it's a bizarre application of state control on a sliver of public health whilst maintaining all of the capitalist system for everything else. None of it makes any sense whatsoever. At a UK level I'd actually see support of it as more right wing, as let's be clear, the majority of people at risk from this, who all of the measures are designed to protect, make up a considerable chunk of the conservative and pro-brexit vote. Edited October 18, 2020 by Taffin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: The Swedish govt designed rules which are relatively easy to follow and not overly restrictive on people life’s. Restrictions which are easily followable and not overly onerous will always have much improved compliance. That said I doubt the behavioural scientists get that much time at SAGE or likes. It’s almost like Sweden’s policy of taking a long term view to balance restrictions, with economical and social concerns is being more successful in the long term. Time will tell I suppose. Over 70s asked to shield - be shielded Work from home if you can Take kids out of school if you can Social distancing Be more clean Significantly reduced venue attendances (50 at start max) Stay local but expect more restrictive local guidelines if infection rates increase. Wearing masks is being responsuble Population being prepped that these restrictions could be years unless the virus dies out and if it diesn't don't expect a miracle vaccine available to be available in 01 July 2021. And compliance while only an 'ask' is treated as good advice with high compliance rates. Night and day from what happens in the UK. (And not just Covid, no doubt) Edited October 18, 2020 by DETTY29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 11 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: Cool right wing conspiracy now 👍 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Reynolds Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, jonesy said: You have to be pretty naive to think that they don’t/ won’t share with the police through both T&T and the app. This is no longer about public health. This is about saving face. You're just making things up to save face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, LMc said: You're just making things up to save face. From a personal perspective, I'm ambivalent to it as I can't see a scenario where I end up going for a Covid test. The part I don't understand is that it says it is available on a case by case basis, what would make them think someone was breaking the self isolation in the first place and then access the information? Not the right post to respond to I know, but you seem quite clued up on how it will work. Edited October 18, 2020 by Taffin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taffin Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said: I think that are going to release more information about how they are sharing information this week. They need to get that 11% of compliance with isolation figure higher. Absolutely they do. Will be interesting to see how what they release about how they're going to do it. Cheers 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) Travelling Tabby is reporting that there were only 316 new cases reported today. The last time such a dramatic drop happened it was due to reporting issues, and of course it is the weekend, but fingers crossed that despite the weirdness of this figure, it is a good sign. The SG hasn't yet published the data on their daily data page. Will update here once it has done. Edited October 18, 2020 by redjambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, redjambo said: Travelling Tabby is reporting that there were only 316 new cases reported today. The last time such a dramatic drop happened it was due to reporting issues, and of course it is the weekend, but fingers crossed that despite the weirdness of this figure, it is a good sign. The SG hasn't yet published the data on their daily data page. Will update here once it has done. Yes, here’s hoping it’s genuine and unaffected by the weekend. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaliveits105 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Pandemic - lots of people out of jobs but we cant organise registrars offices etc to run over weekend so we can deal with accurate figures - disgraceful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 The SG have just published the following info: We were notified late last week of a testing capacity issue with the UK Government Lighthouse facility in Glasgow. This has meant around 64,000 tests from across the UK, including Scotland, will be rerouted this weekend (Fri-Sun) to other testing sites in the UK and Northern Ireland, including tests from our physical testing sites, for example Regional Tests sites. It is important to note that the majority of these tests are still well within the 24 and 48 hour timeframe for results albeit we do expect to see an increase in the level of positives on Monday and Tuesday when the results are reported. The Scottish Government is urgently trying to establish with the UK Government what exactly is causing the delay in testing but this is mainly due to demand from out with Scotland. We continue to reroute routine testing of care home staff through NHS Scotland testing facilities to ensure prompt turnaround times. So, the results will be delayed and that explains today's figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinRummy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said: Pandemic - lots of people out of jobs but we cant organise registrars offices etc to run over weekend so we can deal with accurate figures - disgraceful Said the same somewhere near the start of this thread. Comes under government getting a free pass imo. As you say it’s completely unacceptable. Let’s hope it’s not the case hear. Edit: just read red’s update. Absolutely shambles and the government simply letting the public down again. Edited October 18, 2020 by GinRummy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Ray Gin said: 24 reinfections according to this: https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/08/covid-19-reinfection-tracker/ Out of 40 million cases not 30, seeing as we're being picky. 24 out of 40 million might not be absolute zero but it's as near as damn it. Have we not been down this road already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Ray Gin said: 24 reinfections according to this: https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/08/covid-19-reinfection-tracker/ Wow 23 out of 30 million Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) So, with the above information about delayed reporting in mind: Scottish numbers: 18 October 2020 Summary 316* new cases of COVID-19 reported; this is 11.2%** of newly tested individuals 0 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive (noting that Register Offices are now generally closed at weekends) 62 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [same as day before] 703 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [+28] 15,791* new tests for COVID-19 that reported results * does not reflect the total number of new cases or new tests as there has been a processing delay as a result of a capacity issue. Any additional cases will be reported in the coming days ** the use of this percentage is under review. Further information is provided on the Data definitions and sources webpage. ----- I'll forego the per-board analysis for today. Edited October 18, 2020 by redjambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Regarding the shielding of the elderly. I was thinking why dont they have homes / units separated into two kinds. ? Some homes have older people who wish to shield and not go out...and have other homes with the residents able to go out and enjoy life. Both homes have regular testing to ensure things are ok? It gives the opportunity for older adults to make an informed choice about their current situation. May be impractical to do though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, redjambo said: So, with the above information about delayed reporting in mind: Scottish numbers: 18 October 2020 Summary 316* new cases of COVID-19 reported; this is 11.2%** of newly tested individuals 0 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive (noting that Register Offices are now generally closed at weekends) 62 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [same as yesterday] 703 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [+28] 15,791* new tests for COVID-19 that reported results * does not reflect the total number of new cases or new tests as there has been a processing delay as a result of a capacity issue. Any additional cases will be reported in the coming days ** the use of this percentage is under review. Further information is provided on the Data definitions and sources webpage. ----- I'll forego the per-board analysis for today. No doubt we will get the usual response from SG and those on this..." its the weekend figures"...Some people just cant deal with good news about this virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 15 minutes ago, JamesM48 said: Wow 23 out of 30 million 24 out of 40,056,558. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Lord BJ said: Cool right wing conspiracy now 👍 Nobody said anything about a conspiracy. You ere misrepresenting what I said. Its what people, especially on here, do when they have no valid counters. Almost all those who do this are those who support a right wing perspective. People from the right don't usually have sound moral arguments that's why they do it. A fact of life rather than conspiracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoncurMacdonaldMercer Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 13 minutes ago, JamesM48 said: Regarding the shielding of the elderly. I was thinking why dont they have homes / units separated into two kinds. ? Some homes have older people who wish to shield and not go out...and have other homes with the residents able to go out and enjoy life. Both homes have regular testing to ensure things are ok? It gives the opportunity for older adults to make an informed choice about their current situation. May be impractical to do though. the pragmatic but not-so-fabled shielding strategy is currently actually a real thing in Sweden - would be good to engage with them for successes and issues to try and build something as good as can be with the continued failure of testing and tracing I have little faith we’ll do it particularly well tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 25 minutes ago, redjambo said: So, with the above information about delayed reporting in mind: Scottish numbers: 18 October 2020 Summary 316* new cases of COVID-19 reported; this is 11.2%** of newly tested individuals 0 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive (noting that Register Offices are now generally closed at weekends) 62 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [same as day before] 703 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [+28] 15,791* new tests for COVID-19 that reported results * does not reflect the total number of new cases or new tests as there has been a processing delay as a result of a capacity issue. Any additional cases will be reported in the coming days ** the use of this percentage is under review. Further information is provided on the Data definitions and sources webpage. ----- I'll forego the per-board analysis for today. It's good that they managed to get 15,791 tests that reported results. The positive tests are roughly 2% of all the reported tests. That's a much better way of calculating the percentage and is the way that most other countries do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoncurMacdonaldMercer Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 23 minutes ago, redjambo said: So, with the above information about delayed reporting in mind: Scottish numbers: 18 October 2020 Summary 316* new cases of COVID-19 reported; this is 11.2%** of newly tested individuals 0 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive (noting that Register Offices are now generally closed at weekends) 62 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [same as day before] 703 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19 [+28] 15,791* new tests for COVID-19 that reported results * does not reflect the total number of new cases or new tests as there has been a processing delay as a result of a capacity issue. Any additional cases will be reported in the coming days ** the use of this percentage is under review. Further information is provided on the Data definitions and sources webpage. ----- I'll forego the per-board analysis for today. you’ve become the numbers man unfortunately/unintentionally im guessing the breakdowns of where folk catch the virus is not easily available (even if believable) ? also was wondering if a breakdown of fully-face masked versus filthy non-mask wearer present in the catching locations available my own experience is that too many people wearing face masks now believe themselves and the people they are 2cm from to be bomb-proof presumably due to the flimsy cloth shields if we had to choose only one do we know if distancing is more or less effective than face masks seems using both (arguably the ideal) is too much for a lot of people to take on board one of the key skills of managers etc (particularly in football) is judging how simple/clear introductions need to be for a player/employee/follower to carry out what is required the face mask thing needs a re-think or distancing properly ‘policed’ - just my experience maybe it’s working well elsewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Taffin said: It's so lazy viewing it through a political lens. I've no idea what your political persuasions are. I broadly agree with you on this topic however. I'm probably about as left wing as you'll find. If all of this was actually part of a shift to powerful left wing state control, I'd probably get on board with it. It's not though, it's a bizarre application of state control on a sliver of public health whilst maintaining all of the capitalist system for everything else. None of it makes any sense whatsoever. At a UK level I'd actually see support of it as more right wing, as let's be clear, the majority of people at risk from this, who all of the measures are designed to protect, make up a considerable chunk of the conservative and pro-brexit vote. You make a good point and demonstrate exactly why it is political in the narrowest of senses. If the Tory core vote were not disproportionately affected then the Tory Party would be totally aligned with the freedumb loving zealots on here. This why the Tories have made so many u-turns protecting the vulnerable goes against their instincts. We now have Burnham and others arguing against further protective measures to help business. Are the Tories now the nanny state? In Scotand it is easy just to blame the gov even though it appears they have had much better outcomes than England. It is not just lazy but also naive to see this whole thing as anything other than political. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Just now, jonesy said: Sorry Doug, that's pretty ignorant. Perhaps when you mature a little you'll come to appreciate the fact that other folk see things differently from you. Doesn't mean they don't have sound moral arguments. Argued with them for years,never heard one yet. There is a valid pragmatic argument for loosening the current restrictions however I don't think consigning the weak and vulnerable to an early death passes any moral test, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, jonesy said: Sorry if I'm missing something here. Why are they carrying out multiple tests on individuals on one day? I don't think they are. The SG calculate the percentage of people just newly tested instead of the total number of tests carried out that reports a result. Somebody might test negative 2 weeks ago but positive today. That positive test is still added to the figure, but the person is not counted as a newly tested person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 16 minutes ago, coconut doug said: In Scotand it is easy just to blame the gov even though it appears they have had much better outcomes than England. It is not just lazy but also naive to see this whole thing as anything other than political. There is not much of a difference on outcomes. Scotland are doing slightly better, but still not great Positive tests per 100,000 England 1,088.8 Scotland 855.1 Wales and NI are both higher Deaths per 100,000 England 88.7 Scotland 78.3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 16,982 new positive results in the UK 67 Deaths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 57 minutes ago, graygo said: 24 out of 40,056,558. 👍 oooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, jonesy said: No, we're in mid-October. It's 50,000. Laurel and Hardy told us it would be. Yes very true . Why arent those charlatans being held to account? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavySlaveJambo Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, jonesy said: Hmm, sounds messy. Cheers Nucky. I thought it only counted the first time someone tested positive. And repeat tests that are also positive are not counted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Just now, jonesy said: BoJo needs a fall guy(s). True Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Just now, jonesy said: BoJo needs a fall guy(s). There were a few on here who predicated it would be similar to their " predictions" too. The problem is if stats go down in the next 10 days Sturgeon may say this evidences the most recent restrictions ( which in some ways it may) and argue to maintain them for " another few weeks" to suppress it further? We really cant win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.