General Election 2019

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Any working class man who votes for Labour need only refer to the mps as a guide to how much disdain they have for us.

Vote expected but they dont like us.

 

They only like you until they get your vote, after that it's piss-off plebs.

[Mikey1874]

11 minutes ago, jake said:

Hasn't NHS spending been spared cost cuts ?

 

 

It's not had the same cuts local government for example especially in England has had. Actual money has not reduced. 

 

But with increased demands its struggling all over. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Mikey1874

[jake]

4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Need someone to interpret that.

 

It's a basic thing. Of course money can be spent in efficiently. But the NHS is relatively good at the productivity thing due to investment in drugs and treatments. Massively under funded. 

We spend less as a proportion of GDP compared to quite a few countries.

The NHS is a good thing but it's no safer under Labour.

We also have to ask ourselves what the NHS should provide and what if any should be taken up by private insurance.

 

Ideally it would be funded to the max.

What other services would you take money from ?

6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's not had the same cuts local government for example especially in England has had. Actual money has not reduced. 

 

But with increased demands its struggling all over. 

Increases that are mostly due to an ageing population.

It's just punch and Judy politics to avoid asking real questions about the direction we all want to go.

 

Brexit bad tory scum etc.

 

Just a total turn off .

[jake]

9 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

They only like you until they get your vote, after that it's piss-off plebs.

But but that's cos we are thick and vote brexit.

 

The labour party has abandoned the North of England and Scotland.

Votes taken for granted by a party littered with the type of Dianne Abbot.

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

We spend less as a proportion of GDP compared to quite a few countries.

The NHS is a good thing but it's no safer under Labour.

We also have to ask ourselves what the NHS should provide and what if any should be taken up by private insurance.

 

Ideally it would be funded to the max.

What other services would you take money from ?

Increases that are mostly due to an ageing population.

It's just punch and Judy politics to avoid asking real questions about the direction we all want to go.

 

Brexit bad tory scum etc.

 

Just a total turn off .

 

You've got a point.

 

But NHS funding under Labour 1997 to 2010 basically brought it back to parity after years of underfunding. 

 

Pattern on repeat. 

[jake]

14 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

There's honestly misreading somethibt and then there's going out of your way to make rubbish out of what someone wrote.

 

Try again, Sparky.

So you say politicians that you disagree with lie.

But the politicians you agree with lie but the politicians you disagree with only tell us that the politicians you agree with lie so that we ignore their lies.

 

Barry.

[jake]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

You've got a point.

 

But NHS funding under Labour 1997 to 2010 basically brought it back to parity after years of underfunding. 

 

Pattern on repeat. 

Or boom and bust capitalism.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the gap between rich and poor grew in those years of tory light.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

Or boom and bust capitalism.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the gap between rich and poor grew in those years of tory light.

 

 

 

A complex picture overall. A lot of indicators improved too under Labour. 

 

We can see where we are after 5 years of Boris. 

[jake]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

A complex picture overall. A lot of indicators improved too under Labour. 

 

We can see where we are after 5 years of Boris. 

Dont see much difference tbh.

Still the same areas suffer.

Same folk go without.

 

Only difference is under Labour we had a global growth  economy wise.

And still the rich benefitted.

 

 

[Victorian]

NHS funding cannot just be left to a dumb,   linear,   correlative relationship with macro-economic indicators,   such as GDP or inflation or economic growth or such like.     It cannot be pretended to be just one of many,  equally treated budgets to be neglected or protected on a whim.      The cost base of the NHS is growing exponentially,   therefore it's funding must be viewed dynamically and given the utmost priority.     We're not that far away from a profound breakdown.     Beyond the event horizon.

[Pans Jambo]

16 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Hi @Pans Jambo hope you and yours are doing well.

 

I wanted to tell you my opinion about your use of the nomenclature 'UKOK morons'. 

It is obviously meant as an insult. An insult from a passionate believer in Scottish independence, toward many who don't share that belief. 

 

I think and feel, that if you have to name and categorise people, me for instance, as a set, in order for you to insult them collectively, then you have already lost the argument. 

I think and feel this because my understanding is that all human beings are all of us, and yet we are all unique expressions of that shared human experience too.

 

When folk in Scotland began to call me a 'Unionist' and other names, I hated it. I am me, and an individual. It was distressing to be reduced to a word like that.

 

Now,  I am ok with you calling me names. Your language is your language. Your need to insult me, is ok too.

Because I do the same thing to you and other people that believe and want Scotland to be independent. 

 

So, @Pans Jambo, feel free to call me all the worst things under the sun. I just don't believe Scotland becoming an independent country, is a solution to the problems working class people in Scotland suffer from. 

Chill big lad. Not called you anything. Appreciate you are still on the dark side but to be fair, youre not one of the complete moth frothing roasters I was referring to. Nope, your OK lad. One of the better posters on here. 
Just dont try and convince me tory supporters are not utter filth though eh. 

[Governor Tarkin]

56 minutes ago, jake said:

So you say politicians that you disagree with lie.

But the politicians you agree with lie but the politicians you disagree with only tell us that the politicians you agree with lie so that we ignore their lies.

 

Barry.

 

Interested to see whether the cultural assimilation of @Justin Z has stretched to the subtleties of term 'barry'.

 

🤔

 

P.S. nice to see you back posting shite, Jake. 👍

[TheOak88]

1 hour ago, jake said:

We spend less as a proportion of GDP compared to quite a few countries.

The NHS is a good thing but it's no safer under Labour.

We also have to ask ourselves what the NHS should provide and what if any should be taken up by private insurance.

 

 

completely agree mate. It’s the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about.

 

The NHS was designed and implemented for population and needs of the UK in the 1940/50s. A completely different world to the one that we live in today. 

 

The sad thing is, it’s the public that are holding this debate back, if anyone even talks of adapting the system, people start losing their sh!t about it. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by TheOak88

[jake]

12 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Interested to see whether the cultural assimilation of @Justin Z has stretched to the subtleties of term 'barry'.

 

🤔

 

P.S. nice to see you back posting shite, Jake. 👍

😄 

 

Consistently

[Justin Z]

15 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Interested to see whether the cultural assimilation of @Justin Z has stretched to the subtleties of term 'barry'.

 

🤔

 

P.S. nice to see you back posting shite, Jake. 👍

 

Jake's shite? Barry it is not.

 

2 minutes ago, jake said:

😄

 

Consistently

 

I mean this with all sincerity: "Barry" aside I don't even have any idea what language your previous post was written in.

 

Can you hook me up with your dealer? I need an escape like that especially after how shit of a day this was. **** me.

[Justin Z]

19 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Interested to see whether the cultural assimilation of @Justin Z has stretched to the subtleties of term 'barry'.

 

Oh, and that's easy

 

 

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Jake's shite? Barry it is not.

 

 

I mean this with all sincerity: "Barry" aside I don't even have any idea what language your previous post was written in.

 

Can you hook me up with your dealer? I need an escape like that especially after how shit of a day this was. **** me.

You posted that all political parties lie?

Yes/no

But that your preferred parties lies were not as big as the ones you dislike ?

Yes /no.

 

So that concludes with you saying that's what the party you disagree with wants?

Yes / no

 

Bit shit no?

 

Yes /no

🤔

[Justin Z]

Yes, no, still no idea on that one, barry.

[Justin Z]

Mate, seriously, I've really honestly had a coont of a day. I'm in no mood for jake's remedial reading class. Either go back and figure it out on your own or let it go.

[jake]

On 13/11/2019 at 14:04, Justin Z said:

 

No one can fault you that! But putting them all on equal footing, as if they're all the same, just because they all aren't truthful 100% of the time is to let the worst of the lot off. It's exactly what the worst want you to do, in all honesty.

Just because they all are not truthful.

 

 

What lies are worse Justin?

 

And are we to accept shite because all we get is worse shite?

 

Your reasoning .

So please what language is this ?

[jake]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Mate, seriously, I've really honestly had a coont of a day. I'm in no mood for jake's remedial reading class. Either go back and figure it out on your own or let it go.

Ok mate .

Chill out and rip me later buddy.

[jack D and coke]

2 hours ago, jake said:

But but that's cos we are thick and vote brexit.

 

The labour party has abandoned the North of England and Scotland.

Votes taken for granted by a party littered with the type of Dianne Abbot.

They had to abandon Scotland and north of England to get back into power.  
You have to woo the south of England to get elected. 
The rest just have to accept it. 
Well Scotland doesn’t but a lot of people here are hell bent on making sure that’s remains the case. 

[Jambo, Goodbye]

8 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

I agree it did happen. I was more trying to say, I hope it doesn't turn into a thread that is filled with graphics from Wings or someone else. 

 

I would prefer to hear peoples individual opinions rather than forwarded on propaganda jpgs.  

 

The definition of propaganda is that it's biased or misleading. If it happened, it's by definition, not propaganda. 

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

Should do what they did in Canada after the Quebec Referendum and make it 80% pass mark for leaving the Union. 

Better rerun 2014 as the staying in the Union didn't better 80%. Goose and Gander.

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Better rerun 2014 as the staying in the Union didn't better 80%. Goose and Gander.

Doesn't need to. The separatists are the ones wanting to change the status quo so the onus is on them achieving the required number. Incidentally the Canadian Referendum was alot closer than the Scottish one in 2014 yet the losing side, those wanting self autonomy for Quebec, accepted the result with no calls for a rerun. 

[ri Alban]

7 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Doesn't need to. The separatists are the ones wanting to change the status quo so the onus is on them achieving the required number. Incidentally the Canadian Referendum was alot closer than the Scottish one in 2014 yet the losing side, those wanting self autonomy for Quebec, accepted the result with no calls for a rerun. 

Separatists? Really! What were the same Scots back in 1306/07 when quislings who were goldenised to threaten the Scottish parliament into union whilst England's Army stood on the border? 

Support your union, by all means. But remember this is a union of 4 countries, where only one country kept their parliament and political structure and the other was made to kneel. I'll not kneel to no foreign occupation, you can, if you want.

Edited November 15, 2019 by ri Alban

[Brighton Jambo]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Separatists? Really! What were the same Scots back in 1306/07 when quislings who were goldenised to threaten the Scottish parliament into union whilst England's Army stood on the border? 

Support your union, by all means. But remember this is a union of 4 countries, where only one country kept their parliament and political structure and the other was made to kneel. I'll not kneel to no foreign occupation, you can, if you want.

Foreign occupation? Hahaha what a load of nonsense.  I get the call for independence and do understand the arguments but that is total and utter nonsense.  How many counties occupied by a foreign force get to have their own parliament, vote in free elections in the parliament of the occupier, have their own citizens as the leader of the occupiers parliament etc etc 

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Separatists? Really! What were the same Scots back in 1306/07 when quislings who were goldenised to threaten the Scottish parliament into union whilst England's Army stood on the border? 

Support your union, by all means. But remember this is a union of 4 countries, where only one country kept their parliament and political structure and the other was made to kneel. I'll not kneel to no foreign occupation, you can, if you want.

Quislings? Foreign occupation? Kneeling? What are you on about? Seriously? The parliament is based in London as that is the capital where the majority of the population live. The US have based their legislative capital in DC but all 50 sates accept it with each having their own regional governments. No complaints from them. As a supporter of the EU no doubt you would be happy to have your parliament in Brussels much further away than London. But I suppose that is acceptable and a small price to pay for being part of the European Super State and no longer part of the UK. 

[Class of 75]

8 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Foreign occupation? Hahaha what a load of nonsense.  I get the call for independence and do understand the arguments but that is total and utter nonsense.  How many counties occupied by a foreign force get to have their own parliament, vote in free elections in the parliament of the occupier, have their own citizens as the leader of the occupiers parliament etc etc 

Hi Brighton. Totally agree my friend. Unfortunately these views are quite common up here and despite being Scottish I find them childish. 

[Brighton Jambo]

17 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

I find it interesting that you think that there should be profit available on other peoples suffering/illness. Instead of providing wealth for owners of insurance companies why not increase taxes to pay for further NHS funding?

Fair enough point.  Increase taxes for who though, everyone, the wealthy etc?

 

if the latter please give your view on what constitutes wealthy and so who should pay more.  What salary constitutes wealthy?! 

[jake]

36 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

I find it interesting that you think that there should be profit available on other peoples suffering/illness. Instead of providing wealth for owners of insurance companies why not increase taxes to pay for further NHS funding?

Where did I say there should be profit?

 

We live in a capitalist society and unless we have total change that system cannot afford the level of care enjoyed just now given the demography of our country.

 

As for higher taxes.

I pay out 26% of my wage which includes a private pension.

People in general are already squeezed by heavy taxation.

If you want to start going after the rich and corporation tax then capitalism will punish that as well.

 

I'm just pointing out that 

The NHS is no safer in or out the EU

And no safer under Laboir or Tory rule.

 

I also think we should have debate about what the NHS should deliver.

But wont happen.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by jake

[jake]

7 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

 

I'm a poor working class man. People like me helped create The Labour Party. 

 

Poor, working class people, that organise, have been on the receiving end of physical/verbal attacks on our right to organise, since forever.

 

The SNP/Scottish Green Party have stolen the energy and power that poor, working class people have worked for generations, to express. IMO

Your opinion is solid mate.

The Labour party is not anymore.

Filled with Oxbridge mps now mate.

 

[jack D and coke]

3 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

Doesn't need to. The separatists are the ones wanting to change the status quo so the onus is on them achieving the required number. Incidentally the Canadian Referendum was alot closer than the Scottish one in 2014 yet the losing side, those wanting self autonomy for Quebec, accepted the result with no calls for a rerun. 

It’s funny that someone from your side thinks it’s an Indy supporter who has the extreme views yet this isn’t really challenged. 
You basically want to make it literally impossible to leave. Scotland is and should remain a prisoner of this “union”
An absolutely incredible point of view. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by jack D and coke

[Adam Murray]

20 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s funny that someone from your side thinks it’s an Indy supporter who has the extreme views yet this isn’t really challenged. 
You basically want to make it literally impossible to leave. Scotland is and should remain a prisoner of this “union”
An absolutely incredible point of view. 

 

I'm all for a rerun JD, after a period of time.

The trouble is though, the campaign for a rerun seemed to happen the day after the referendum result, and from what I've seen and heard, there's been absolutely no attempt from the broader Independence movement to convince people who voted no, to change their minds.

The main vehicle for Independence, the SNP, have done nothing to try and convince people that Independence is the way forward, their only angle seems to be that of one of grievance, with both Westminster and Brexit being the cause of all things bad to Scotland.

I'd like to see them concentrate on the positives that they can offer.

We had the National Listening exercise from the SNP, which we never got to know the results off, which i'm sure we would have heard a lot more about if they had been favourable towards Independence.

We had the SNP's own Growth Report, which was also filed away quietly as the findings weren't favourable toward Independence.

We also had claims from the FM that there would be no push for a second Indy ref until polls showed that there was a want for one, 60% i'm sure was the figure, a figure which I don't think has been anywhere near reached .

I'd love to see the SNP and the broader Independence movement  move toward a strategy of positives, to move away from the blame game, to promote the positives that an Independent Scotland can deliver, to have answers to all the similar difficulties that have arisen over Brexit.

A lot will be unclear, that is the nature of any divorce/break up, but please, let's start getting away from this blame game and negativity, from all sides, and start promoting positives, truthful policies which will have a positive effect on people's lives.

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Foreign occupation? Hahaha what a load of nonsense.  I get the call for independence and do understand the arguments but that is total and utter nonsense.  How many counties occupied by a foreign force get to have their own parliament, vote in free elections in the parliament of the occupier, have their own citizens as the leader of the occupiers parliament etc etc 

Get to? How many free citizens get thrown off their lands, their language replaced, currency binned, prohibited from trading with Europe twice! Their laws overruled (Brexit anyone?) Their capital city moved to another country's. Don't give me the auld allowed pish. The gladiators and slaves were fed and watered back in good auld Rome. Probably had a vote, just as long as it didn't matter to Rome.  Thanks for letting us!

 

England couldn't even hack 40 year of Europe. At least they had the baws to say, feck you very much!

 

 

News just in! A document has been found that states"Scotland and England must have dibs each at being the top dug of the union" image what England would say to that.

Edited November 15, 2019 by ri Alban

[dobmisterdobster]

4 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

Doesn't need to. The separatists are the ones wanting to change the status quo so the onus is on them achieving the required number. Incidentally the Canadian Referendum was alot closer than the Scottish one in 2014 yet the losing side, those wanting self autonomy for Quebec, accepted the result with no calls for a rerun. 

That's because people had a lot more respect for their political opponents in 1995 compared to today.

[redjambo]

15 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

Should do what they did in Canada after the Quebec Referendum and make it 80% pass mark for leaving the Union. 

 

Do you have any source for this unusual claim about Québec?

[dobmisterdobster]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Do you have any source for this unusual claim about Québec?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

[jack D and coke]

18 minutes ago, Adam Murray said:

 

I'm all for a rerun JD, after a period of time.

The trouble is though, the campaign for a rerun seemed to happen the day after the referendum result, and from what I've seen and heard, there's been absolutely no attempt from the broader Independence movement to convince people who voted no, to change their minds.

The main vehicle for Independence, the SNP, have done nothing to try and convince people that Independence is the way forward, their only angle seems to be that of one of grievance, with both Westminster and Brexit being the cause of all things bad to Scotland.

I'd like to see them concentrate on the positives that they can offer.

We had the National Listening exercise from the SNP, which we never got to know the results off, which i'm sure we would have heard a lot more about if they had been favourable towards Independence.

We had the SNP's own Growth Report, which was also filed away quietly as the findings weren't favourable toward Independence.

We also had claims from the FM that there would be no push for a second Indy ref until polls showed that there was a want for one, 60% i'm sure was the figure, a figure which I don't think has been anywhere near reached .

I'd love to see the SNP and the broader Independence movement  move toward a strategy of positives, to move away from the blame game, to promote the positives that an Independent Scotland can deliver, to have answers to all the similar difficulties that have arisen over Brexit.

A lot will be unclear, that is the nature of any divorce/break up, but please, let's start getting away from this blame game and negativity, from all sides, and start promoting positives, truthful policies which will have a positive effect on people's lives.

Look man I’m not an SNP supporter I don’t particularly agree with a lot of what they say but I can’t get on board with literally anything the unionist parties say anymore. 
And let’s not kid on they don’t suppress reports etc too that don’t fit with their narrative. 
The tories have pretty much the media doing all their work for them regardless of whether it’s damaging or not. No other party has that. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

When a party’s got a knob like Owen Jones speaking for it, you know to vote for someone else.

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, jake said:

Your opinion is solid mate.

The Labour party is not anymore.

Filled with Oxbridge mps now mate.

 

 

20% of Labour MPs elected in 2017 were Oxbridge. Contrast with 34% Tory, 17% Liberal Democrat, 0% SNP.

 

Edit: source removed until I can get the link to work!

Edited November 15, 2019 by redjambo

[redjambo]

6 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

 

I can't see "80%" indicated anywhere therein?

[dobmisterdobster]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

I can't see "80%" indicated anywhere therein?

I mentioned earlier in the thread that the federal government had to agree on a percentage threshold. I never said that it had to be 80%.

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s funny that someone from your side thinks it’s an Indy supporter who has the extreme views yet this isn’t really challenged. 
You basically want to make it literally impossible to leave. Scotland is and should remain a prisoner of this “union”
An absolutely incredible point of view. 

Not at all, I don't really see Scotland as a prisoner of a Union we set up.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, dobmisterdobster said:

I mentioned earlier in the thread that the federal government had to agree on a percentage threshold. I never said that it had to be 80%.

 

My original comment was in reply to Class of 75 who commented "Should do what they did in Canada after the Quebec Referendum and make it 80% pass mark for leaving the Union." I asked him for a source backing up that claim, and you replied to that.

[Adam Murray]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Look man I’m not an SNP supporter I don’t particularly agree with a lot of what they say but I can’t get on board with literally anything the unionist parties say anymore. 
And let’s not kid on they don’t suppress reports etc too that don’t fit with their narrative. 
The tories have pretty much the media doing all their work for them regardless of whether it’s damaging or not. No other party has that. 

 

I agree, it's lie after lie by many, all the time, with the media there to help.

That is why i'm saying that the Independence movement should be concentrating on the positives.

We know politicians are economical with the truth, and in this age of digital media/social media, they just can't get away with it anymore.

That is why i'm saying, rather than a tit for tat, whataboutery kind of argument, start convincing people what an Independent Scotland can offer, and not what misery Westminster or Brexit will bring us.

 

[redjambo]

Got it. The source for the info on the social background of MPs is (pdf):

 

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf

[Class of 75]

15 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Do you have any source for this unusual claim about Québec?

Sorry I think my statement was misread. What I meant was that after the Quebec Referendum the Canadian Government wanted to make these votes harder to pass so decided to have ceiling, which they could set which those wanting to upset the status quo would have to achieve. I would like to see that replicated in the UK. 

[redjambo]

Just now, Class of 75 said:

Sorry I think my statement was misread. What I meant was that after the Quebec Referendum the Canadian Government wanted to make these votes harder to pass so decided to have ceiling, which they could set which those wanting to upset the status quo would have to achieve. I would like to see that replicated in the UK. 

 

Ah, I get you. The 80% was just an example. No problem.

[Mikey1874]

One thing in the Scottish context is that if there is going to be big increases in public spending whether its Conservatives or Labour then that means a lot more money for Scotland too.

 

Presumably everyone here should be happy about that.