General Election 2019

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Most won't get the opportunity to vote for the Brexit Party. This despite Farage describing Johnson's deal as worse than remaining in the EU. You have to wonder why he changed his mind and decided to support the deal, might it just be that he knows it has no chance of happening? Tactical voting by the Leave side will surely see them return a substantial majority.  

 

You could be right, there is not a Brexit party candidate standing in my constituency Dumfries Clydesdale & Tweeddale as it was Mundell who won last time and I can't see him losing this time around, won with a 9,000+ majority over the SNP and I just can't see the SNP overturning that size of majority.

[jambos are go!]

3 hours ago, coconut doug said:

The Labour party is currently promising to negotiate a new  Brexit deal in three months and then have a referendum on that deal. How can that be opposing Brexit? The Labour party is allegedly pro union but do you honestly believe that if by some miracle they become players in a hung parliament they are going to prevent a referendum? Nicola has made it clear No referendum = No cross party agreement.

 

   "Some of the smaller parties surely", well who are they and where are they significant in the marginals? They don't exist and their is no likelyhood of any appearing in the immediate future.

 

   You seem to think that the SNP are trying to hoodwink the electorate by clearly outlining where they stand. It's a novel approach then. The SNP want independence from the UK, who knew? I think you are alluding to the dilemma that some voters may face which is how to help stop Brexit without voting for independence. They should vote Lib Dem if they find independence so unpalatable and for those less opposed to independence then they should vote for the SNP.

 

  A vote for the SNP is a vote in support of their manifesto and independence however if you think voting SNP will be the most effective way to stop Brexit (and lets face it the others have done very little) and don't want independence then you can vote against independence in the next referendum. Independence will not happen without a majority of the popular vote, surely you know this.

 

 Whichever party you vote for will entail some compromise on the voter's part despite all parties trying to be all things to all men.

Your real dilemma is that nobody is currently going to stop the SNP and that their closest rivals are the Brexit facilitators. That's not the SNP's fault.

the gist of what you are saying is that the SNP are not asking you to lend them your vote to stop Independence but stealing your vote to promote independence. Do you agree.

 

I think the S NP took North Fife by 2 or 3 votes after several recounts. Just a few switching to any other part y/candidate  could deny them victory. There are couple of dozen marginal seats in Scotland I have been told.

 

In 2017 the S NP and the polls thought they were on course to sweep the board they but lost around 20 seats. Let's see more of the same.

[manaliveits105]

What’s that comin over the hill 

a Tory landslide

a Tory landslide

[coconut doug]

23 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

the gist of what you are saying is that the SNP are not asking you to lend them your vote to stop Independence but stealing your vote to promote independence. Do you agree.

 

I think the S NP took North Fife by 2 or 3 votes after several recounts. Just a few switching to any other part y/candidate  could deny them victory. There are couple of dozen marginal seats in Scotland I have been told.

 

In 2017 the S NP and the polls thought they were on course to sweep the board they but lost around 20 seats. Let's see more of the same.

 

Once again you seem unable to comprehend what i am saying. Let me try again. If you vote for the SNP at this election you may be voting for the most effective opposition to Brexit. Many people would want to vote for the party best disposed to resist Brexit but would not do so if that party were the SNP. For others there is not so much of a problem in voting SNP as they would see their vote as a vote against Brexit and not necessarily in favour of independence. These people would be savvy enough to realise that independence cannot be achieved without victory in another referendum. The SNP do not intend to declare an independent Scotland even if they win every single seat. it would of course be possible to win every seat with around 40% of the vote but that would not necessarily equate to a majority in favour of Indy even though other parties support Independence.

 

    If non indy supporters decided to vote SNP because of the Brexit situation only and the SNP then produced a majority of MPs in Scotland then that would be a mandate for another referendum IMO. We are already in this situation with Indy parties having gained the majority at Holyrood and in Westminster elections. What you are suggesting is that the Unionist element of the  Scottish electorate are too stupid to be able to work out what their priorities are and how best to express them.

 

    The justification for a second referendum is based on the principle that Scotland is being removed from the EU against her will despite explicit promises from numerous Unionist politicians that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No. As yet we have not left the EU and so this particular justification for Indyref2 cannot be applied. Should you or anybody else wish to resist the oncoming Indyref 2 it might be a good idea to vote for the party that has proved itself committed to resisting Brexit. The only realistic contenders for this are the SNP and the Lib Dems.  The latter are unlikely to win many seats in Scotland and so Nicola's request seems absolutely logical and correct. If voters desert the SNP it is the Tories and Labour who will benefit most as the Lib Dems are contenders in only a very few seats. If the Tories win, and they probably will, it's Hard Brexit followed by an upsurge for the SNP and an inevitable Indyref 2.

 

   

 The SNP are not stealing anybodies vote as you suggest. I don't know how you can steal a vote anyway .

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

What’s that comin over the hill 

a Tory landslide

a Tory landslide

Couldn't ask for a better situation. Boris and a no deal Tory Government. Music to my Ears.

[Brighton Jambo]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Couldn't ask for a better situation. Boris and a no deal Tory Government. Music to my Ears.

Not sure why, a conservative majority guarantees no second independence referendum for the length of the next government.

 

 Boris isn’t going to suddenly change his mind so if he wins, no new vote.  And the likes of Blackford screaming about democratic outrage aren’t going to make the blindest bit of difference.

 

you should be wishing for a hung parliament where Corbyn needs the SNP. 

[Pans Jambo]

31 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Not sure why, a conservative majority guarantees no second independence referendum for the length of the next government.

 

 Boris isn’t going to suddenly change his mind so if he wins, no new vote.  And the likes of Blackford screaming about democratic outrage aren’t going to make the blindest bit of difference.

 

you should be wishing for a hung parliament where Corbyn needs the SNP. 

Can we just put this "we wont allow another independence referendum" shite to bed please?

 

So Scotland votes in the SNP in a landslide victory with the full clear majority of seats on a ticket of "oppose Brexit" and "a second Independence referendum in 2020".

 

How can ANYONE deny the Scottish people who have legitimately and democratically just voted for the very same thing?

 

Who would dare oppose the will of the Scottish people when the Scottish government will have a clear and legal mandate?

 

The unionist and English nationalist parties are sabre rattling. Sure they could try but I think you would find Westminster being hauled through the courts again and imagine the fall-out from that. No, they will allow it then tell us the oil is worthless, the English invented whisky and the whole "Scotland is shite unless its being ran by Westminster" will start again (not that its ever stopped).

[jambos are go!]

11 hours ago, coconut doug said:

 

Once again you seem unable to comprehend what i am saying. Let me try again. If you vote for the SNP at this election you may be voting for the most effective opposition to Brexit. Many people would want to vote for the party best disposed to resist Brexit but would not do so if that party were the SNP. For others there is not so much of a problem in voting SNP as they would see their vote as a vote against Brexit and not necessarily in favour of independence. These people would be savvy enough to realise that independence cannot be achieved without victory in another referendum. The SNP do not intend to declare an independent Scotland even if they win every single seat. it would of course be possible to win every seat with around 40% of the vote but that would not necessarily equate to a majority in favour of Indy even though other parties support Independence.

 

    If non indy supporters decided to vote SNP because of the Brexit situation only and the SNP then produced a majority of MPs in Scotland then that would be a mandate for another referendum IMO. We are already in this situation with Indy parties having gained the majority at Holyrood and in Westminster elections. What you are suggesting is that the Unionist element of the  Scottish electorate are too stupid to be able to work out what their priorities are and how best to express them.

 

    The justification for a second referendum is based on the principle that Scotland is being removed from the EU against her will despite explicit promises from numerous Unionist politicians that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No. As yet we have not left the EU and so this particular justification for Indyref2 cannot be applied. Should you or anybody else wish to resist the oncoming Indyref 2 it might be a good idea to vote for the party that has proved itself committed to resisting Brexit. The only realistic contenders for this are the SNP and the Lib Dems.  The latter are unlikely to win many seats in Scotland and so Nicola's request seems absolutely logical and correct. If voters desert the SNP it is the Tories and Labour who will benefit most as the Lib Dems are contenders in only a very few seats. If the Tories win, and they probably will, it's Hard Brexit followed by an upsurge for the SNP and an inevitable Indyref 2.

 

   

 The SNP are not stealing anybodies vote as you suggest. I don't know how you can steal a vote anyway .

Firstly,  the SNP made a firm and clear commitment that  the  referendum in 2014 would settle the issue for at least a generation. They  did not say that they reserved the right to abandon that commitment in certain circumstances and onward election results based on wider policies. Is that right?.

 

NO got 55% of the vote in the referendum and the YES side have got nowhere near that in any election in terms of percentages or total votes. Is that right?

 

Despite this I have called on this board  for a few years for another referendum to put nonsense on stilts back to the people to end the unrest and division being fostered by the SNP in Scotland. I'm no feart.

 

You say that voting for the SNP would be a mandate  for another referendum then surely you would agree that the SNP should say this clearly so that folk who do not want another referendum never mind independence know exactly what they are voting for?

 

I return to my question  about Nicola asking unionists to lend their vote to block Brexit but saying she will not talk to any other party that will not grant another referendum. So if a coalition offers a real prospect of stopping Brexit she will refuse to speak to them? Is that not deception?

 

 

[Don Dan]

21 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

Is that not deception?

The deception will be and is clear to me if you vote SNP to stop Brexit as Sturgeon is asking she will then use that vote to stop Brexit as weapon to push for independence. I want to stop Brexit but I don’t want independence. To that end I won’t vote SNP.

 

[Justin Z]

25 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

Firstly,  the SNP made a firm and clear commitment that  the  referendum in 2014 would settle the issue for at least a generation. They  did not say that they reserved the right to abandon that commitment in certain circumstances and onward election results based on wider policies. Is that right?.

 

No

 

25 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

NO got 55% of the vote in the referendum and the YES side have got nowhere near that in any election in terms of percentages or total votes. Is that right?

 

We all know the result of the 2014 referendum

 

26 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

You say that voting for the SNP would be a mandate  for another referendum then surely you would agree that the SNP should say this clearly so that folk who do not want another referendum never mind independence know exactly what they are voting for?

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election-2019-second-indyref-vote-at-heart-of-snp-campaign-1-5035727

 

Nicola Sturgeon has put a second Scottish independence referendum front and centre of the SNP's general election campaign.  The First Minister today said that if the SNP won in Scotland in the December election, it would be an "unequivocal and irresistible demand" for a second independence vote.

 

Not sure how much clearer she could have been than that.

 

2 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

The deception will be and is clear to me if you vote SNP to stop Brexit as Sturgeon is asking she will then use that vote to stop Brexit as weapon to push for independence. I want to stop Brexit but I don’t want independence. To that end I won’t vote SNP.

 

i.e. There is no deception, the path for you is clear and it was quite easy to arrive at.

[Brighton Jambo]

2 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Can we just put this "we wont allow another independence referendum" shite to bed please?

 

So Scotland votes in the SNP in a landslide victory with the full clear majority of seats on a ticket of "oppose Brexit" and "a second Independence referendum in 2020".

 

How can ANYONE deny the Scottish people who have legitimately and democratically just voted for the very same thing?

 

Who would dare oppose the will of the Scottish people when the Scottish government will have a clear and legal mandate?

 

The unionist and English nationalist parties are sabre rattling. Sure they could try but I think you would find Westminster being hauled through the courts again and imagine the fall-out from that. No, they will allow it then tell us the oil is worthless, the English invented whisky and the whole "Scotland is shite unless its being ran by Westminster" will start again (not that its ever stopped).

It’s not shite it is the law.  Scotland cannot have another referendum unless granted the power to do so by Westminster.

 

Your are right that they could go through the courts and maybe they would win and maybe they wouldn't.  

 

If Boris wins frankly I see that as being the only way they get another referendum as I actually think he will take great delight in saying no and maybe hoping that the Scottish government do something rash and hold an unofficial vote which would not help their cause.  

 

 

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election-2019-second-indyref-vote-at-heart-of-snp-campaign-1-5035727

 

Nicola Sturgeon has put a second Scottish independence referendum front and centre of the SNP's general election campaign.  The First Minister today said that if the SNP won in Scotland in the December election, it would be an "unequivocal and irresistible demand" for a second independence vote.

 

Not sure how much clearer she could have been than that.

 

 

 

Clear certainly. Clearly wrong too. Unless the SNP  runs its campaign on the single issue of an Indyref2  it will not be an "unequivocal" outcome.

[Don Dan]

5 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

No

 

 

We all know the result of the 2014 referendum

 

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election-2019-second-indyref-vote-at-heart-of-snp-campaign-1-5035727

 

Nicola Sturgeon has put a second Scottish independence referendum front and centre of the SNP's general election campaign.  The First Minister today said that if the SNP won in Scotland in the December election, it would be an "unequivocal and irresistible demand" for a second independence vote.

 

Not sure how much clearer she could have been than that.

 

 

i.e. There is no deception, the path for you is clear and it was quite easy to arrive at.

the path as you describe it is clear but it’s a deception. The SNP want to stop Brexit as do I. The SNP want independence I do not. The SNP will use anyone’s vote (My vote) who voted for the SNP to stop Brexit but don’t want Independence and turn it into an endorsement for independence. 
Looking at the options on the ballot paper the only party that match my preference is the LibDems not a great option when you look at all there policies but they are the only option I’ve got. 
Regarding the GE IMO we should have had a referendum first on leave or stay and not another election. 
Regarding independence I’m in no doubt if we had or have another referendum No would agin be the outcome. 
 

[Brighton Jambo]

16 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

No

 

 

We all know the result of the 2014 referendum

 

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election-2019-second-indyref-vote-at-heart-of-snp-campaign-1-5035727

 

Nicola Sturgeon has put a second Scottish independence referendum front and centre of the SNP's general election campaign.  The First Minister today said that if the SNP won in Scotland in the December election, it would be an "unequivocal and irresistible demand" for a second independence vote.

 

Not sure how much clearer she could have been than that.

 

 

i.e. There is no deception, the path for you is clear and it was quite easy to arrive at.

It’s interesting to me that she declares a win for the SNP, a win she knows is 100% guaranteed, is a clear demand for another referendum when the polls do not indicate that is actually the case, something she had previously said would be used as a clear indicator of when the time is right for another one.  Seems that claim has been conveniently forgotten.  

 

Anyway it’s clear she wants one and clear Boris doesn’t so that’s going to be interesting if he wins a majority.   

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

the path as you describe it is clear but it’s a deception.

 

The First Minister today said that if the SNP won in Scotland in the December election, it would be an "unequivocal and irresistible demand" for a second independence vote.

 

If you say so. Seems as plain as day from over here.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

15 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

The deception will be and is clear to me if you vote SNP to stop Brexit as Sturgeon is asking she will then use that vote to stop Brexit as weapon to push for independence. I want to stop Brexit but I don’t want independence. To that end I won’t vote SNP.

 

 

The SNP have one aim in life and they always have since the day they were formed and that is Independence for Scotland, therefore it doesn't matter which election, referendum or vote that there is and that the SNP gain the largest share of the said vote, then the SNP will always claim that it's a mandate & support for an Independant Scotland.

 

You know what you will get with the SNP, so not sure about them trying to deceive to the public.

 

P.S. I'm not an SNP drone.

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Anyway it’s clear she wants one and clear Boris doesn’t so that’s going to be interesting if he wins a majority.   

 

This is definitely the far more relevant and, I agree, interesting bit. The other is simply the calculated casting of aspersions on politicians people don't like and it's a bore.

Edit:

 

Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The SNP have one aim in life and they always have since the day they were formed and that is Independence for Scotland, therefore it doesn't matter which election, referendum or vote that there is and that the SNP gain the largest share of the said vote, then the SNP will always claim that it's a mandate & support for an Independant Scotland.

 

You know what you will get with the SNP, so not sure about them trying to deceive to the public.

 

Exactly. This has been their sole raison d'être from the beginning, and pretending it hasn't always been is the height of silliness.

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Justin Z

[Francis Albert]

10 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

The First Minister today said that if the SNP won in Scotland in the December election, it would be an "unequivocal and irresistible demand" for a second independence vote.

 

If you say so. Seems as plain as day from over here.

Plain but a distortion of the truth. Why  would SNP winning an election (winning by a majority of seats or a certain winning margin of seats or a majority of votes cast … not exactly "plain as day" to me … be unequivocal as far as Indyref2 is concerned  if as others have said people will vote SNP for different reasons. 

Nicola is not arguing a principled position but a self-interested one which given the prime objective of the SNP is understandable. She is a politician after all.

I suspect too high focus on Inderef2 as the outcome may backfire.

 

Sorry have I just cast aspersions on a politician. Perish the thought.

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Don Dan]

General election: Hung parliament would give SNP ‘significant influence and power’, says Sturgeon

 

Scottish first minister wants to use leverage at Westminster to push for early independence referendum

•  

• Andrew WoodcockPolitical Editor @andywoodcock
• Friday 8 November 2019 

Ms Sturgeon said a vote for the SNP was “a vote to escape Brexit” and “a vote to put Scotland’s future firmly in Scotland’s hands”.

SNP MPs would back any efforts to bring about a second EU referendum and would vote to revoke Brexit if the alternative was a no-deal crash-out, she said.

“We will not give up trying to stop Brexit for the whole of the UK,” said Ms Sturgeon. “I think the positions of the other parties make Brexit look ever more inevitable, but other parties are deeply split and we will see what the arithmetic is in the House of Commons after the election.

[AlphonseCapone]

18 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

the path as you describe it is clear but it’s a deception. The SNP want to stop Brexit as do I. The SNP want independence I do not. The SNP will use anyone’s vote (My vote) who voted for the SNP to stop Brexit but don’t want Independence and turn it into an endorsement for independence. 
Looking at the options on the ballot paper the only party that match my preference is the LibDems not a great option when you look at all there policies but they are the only option I’ve got. 
Regarding the GE IMO we should have had a referendum first on leave or stay and not another election. 
Regarding independence I’m in no doubt if we had or have another referendum No would agin be the outcome. 
 

 

You've just proven it's not a deception because you've set out logically that while the SNP are against Brexit, they are for independence and you know this, therefore you'll vote for the Lib Dems as the only unionist party against Brexit. 

 

If it was actually a deception, you wouldn't be aware of all the above that leads you to not voting SNP.

[Don Dan]

2 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

You've just proven it's not a deception because you've set out logically that while the SNP are against Brexit, they are for independence and you know this, therefore you'll vote for the Lib Dems as the only unionist party against Brexit. 

 

If it was actually a deception, you wouldn't be aware of all the above that leads you to not voting SNP.

Some are not as aware as we are as I’ve found out in recent discussions with other people. When I pointed out that a vote for the SNP to stop Brexit would be used to support the clamour for another independence referendum the penny dropped. 
 

[Taffin]

39 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

the path as you describe it is clear but it’s a deception. The SNP want to stop Brexit as do I. The SNP want independence I do not. The SNP will use anyone’s vote (My vote) who voted for the SNP to stop Brexit but don’t want Independence and turn it into an endorsement for independence. 
Looking at the options on the ballot paper the only party that match my preference is the LibDems not a great option when you look at all there policies but they are the only option I’ve got. 
Regarding the GE IMO we should have had a referendum first on leave or stay and not another election. 
Regarding independence I’m in no doubt if we had or have another referendum No would agin be the outcome. 
 

 

It's the Scottish National Party. What's deceptive about them using votes for them as a mandate for independence? It's literally why they exist.

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

It’s not shite it is the law.  Scotland cannot have another referendum unless granted the power to do so by Westminster.

 

Your are right that they could go through the courts and maybe they would win and maybe they wouldn't.  

 

If Boris wins frankly I see that as being the only way they get another referendum as I actually think he will take great delight in saying no and maybe hoping that the Scottish government do something rash and hold an unofficial vote which would not help their cause.  

 

 

Be a brave (or stupid) politician who defies a legitimate mandate.

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Be a brave (or stupid) politician who defies a legitimate mandate.

 

Neither. Boris' short tenure has been a case study in defying accepted, age-old democratic norms for the UK. Trying on fascism the way Donald Trump has. It's a feature, not a bug.

[Pans Jambo]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Neither. Boris' short tenure has been a case study in defying accepted, age-old democratic norms for the UK. Trying on fascism the way Donald Trump has. It's a feature, not a bug.

Thats true. Not worked as well as he may have thought though. I'm not sure what the score is but it must be Govt 1 Parliament 14 as far as winning votes goes.

[Justin Z]

3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Thats true. Not worked as well as he may have thought though. I'm not sure what the score is but it must be Govt 1 Parliament 14 as far as winning votes goes.

 

True, Trump saw a lot more success up until the last month or two, and he still has a devoted cult that has not wavered. Here, some people seem to give Johnson the benefit of the doubt to an extent that is just ludicrous and that would never be extended to members of other parties, but a massive, dangerous, loyal following--nah, he's not got that at least.

[dobmisterdobster]

2 hours ago, Dannie Boy said:

General election: Hung parliament would give SNP ‘significant influence and power’, says Sturgeon

 

Scottish first minister wants to use leverage at Westminster to push for early independence referendum

•  

• Andrew WoodcockPolitical Editor @andywoodcock
• Friday 8 November 2019 

Ms Sturgeon said a vote for the SNP was “a vote to escape Brexit” and “a vote to put Scotland’s future firmly in Scotland’s hands”.

SNP MPs would back any efforts to bring about a second EU referendum and would vote to revoke Brexit if the alternative was a no-deal crash-out, she said.

“We will not give up trying to stop Brexit for the whole of the UK,” said Ms Sturgeon. “I think the positions of the other parties make Brexit look ever more inevitable, but other parties are deeply split and we will see what the arithmetic is in the House of Commons after the election.

The stuff of nightmares.

[Brighton Jambo]

I know I am traditionally SNP bad for all things but this is a honestly a genuine question and not loaded!!

 

what do we think about them going to court to challenge being part of the debate?

 

On the one hand they are the third largest party so that works in their favour

 

on the other they are a party that only stands in 10% of all seats and by their very definition will never look to stand across the UK.  So why should they be part of a UK level debate?

 

what is people’s views?? 

[doctor jambo]

10 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I know I am traditionally SNP bad for all things but this is a honestly a genuine question and not loaded!!

 

what do we think about them going to court to challenge being part of the debate?

 

On the one hand they are the third largest party so that works in their favour

 

on the other they are a party that only stands in 10% of all seats and by their very definition will never look to stand across the UK.  So why should they be part of a UK level debate?

 

what is people’s views?? 

they should be part of it.

They have a fair old % of the total vote, and a significant number of seats.

What they would bring to the debate is, however, questionable.

Maybe they could join in with the caveat that they don't mention independence?

After all the conservatives will not allow it, libdems wont allow it, labour I suspect wont either as it would mean they never saw power in the UK for the indefinite future.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

9 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I know I am traditionally SNP bad for all things but this is a honestly a genuine question and not loaded!!

 

what do we think about them going to court to challenge being part of the debate?

 

On the one hand they are the third largest party so that works in their favour

 

on the other they are a party that only stands in 10% of all seats and by their very definition will never look to stand across the UK.  So why should they be part of a UK level debate?

 

what is people’s views?? 

 

If the SNP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, DUP or any other of the smaller parties are likely to either prop-up or go into full on coalition with either the Tories or Labour, then yes, people should at least know what the smaller parties stand for, because their policies might affect their coalition partners policies, either by being watered down or scrapped altogether both ways.

[maroonlegions]

And folk still see no wrong here and go out and vote for these utter reptiles

 

This is Tory Britain.

 

A man collapsed while waiting for an appointment in a job centre in south Wales.

 

After being found FIT to work..

 

“The man, 65, was found slumped in his chair at 9.30am on Friday in Llanelli.”

 

Why was a 65 year old man even required to to jobsearch?
 

Oh yeah because the tories   want us to work til we drop so they can swipe all those hard earned pension contributions .😡😢

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by maroonlegions

[RobboM]

13 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I know I am traditionally SNP bad for all things but this is a honestly a genuine question and not loaded!!

 

what do we think about them going to court to challenge being part of the debate?

 

On the one hand they are the third largest party so that works in their favour

 

on the other they are a party that only stands in 10% of all seats and by their very definition will never look to stand across the UK.  So why should they be part of a UK level debate?

 

what is people’s views?? 

I'm not an SNP supporter but I would be inclined to support their inclusion. To exclude them on the basis of not standing across the UK is to implicitly support a view that support for the continuing UK is a fundamental given. Also, of course, Scottish Independence would have enormous implicaitons for the remainder of the UK and should be acknowledged and discussed at  a UK level.

I'm honestly not sure what the criteria should be for inclusion is debates but wouldn't agree with the reasoning you have suggested above.

[dobmisterdobster]

I want to see Boris vs Jeremy. Everyone else is an irrelevance.

[manaliveits105]

Correct wee Jimmy ain’t even a real politician 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, manaliveits105 said:

Correct wee Jimmy ain’t even a real politician 

[Boab]

Just now, dobmisterdobster said:

I want to see Boris vs Jeremy. Everyone else is an irrelevance.

Not if they need someone to prop up a minority government, which is highly likely. 

The DUP were such an irrelevance, the Tories bribed them into supporting them.

[Adam Murray]

On 15/11/2019 at 13:32, coconut doug said:

 

Clearly there was not a demand for a rerun the day after the referendum result. In this article Nicola is being accused of 

"playing down the prospect of an imminent re-run of last year's ballot". https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13877169.snp-want-polls-to-show-60-support-for-independence-for-a-whole-year-before-calling-referendum/ 

   The article goes on to point out that in order to justify a new referendum the SNP state there would have to be sustained support of around 60% for independence unless Scotland was pulled out of the EU against Scotland's wishes. I think that maybe about to happen and so the SNP on this basis at least would be entitled to push for a second referendum. 

    We are constantly told that the SNP and Indy supporters base their arguments on grievance perhaps you could be more specific as to which areas these grievances are being pursued and why you think they are not justified. 

 

I did say 'the campaign for a re-run seemed to happen the day after the referendum result'.

And it's the SNP, it's their main goal in politics, if they weren't planning for an Indyref 2 the day after they lost the first one, they wouldn't be doing their job properly.

Maybe it's just in my mind, but it seems as though we've been in a constant state of neverendum since about 2011, and if Nicola Sturgeon has her way there'll be another two next year.

But then that suits the SNP, it's nationalism, it creates barriers between people, and divisiveness.

 

With regards the grievance claim, there's literally too many to mention, but the thing is, you and other Independence supporters wont see them as being grievances, you'll see them as being genuine concerns, whilst Unionist and No voters see them as being mock grievance, that's the way it is, and by the looks of people's entrenched views, it's not going to change.

 

And round and round we go.

[Brighton Jambo]

1 minute ago, Boab said:

Not if they need someone to prop up a minority government, which is highly likely. 

The DUP were such an irrelevance, the Tories bribed them into supporting them.

Nicola Sturgeon has very publicly  said that any leader who wants her support should even ‘pick up the phone’ if they won’t offer a second referendum.

 

thats her demand and fair enough.

 

not sure why it worse for the DUP to demand additional cash to support their agenda in NI.  

 

Its how how it works, you want our support what’s in it for us, all minority parties do it.

[Boab]

Just now, Brighton Jambo said:

Nicola Sturgeon has very publicly  said that any leader who wants her support should even ‘pick up the phone’ if they won’t offer a second referendum.

 

thats her demand and fair enough.

 

not sure why it worse for the DUP to demand additional cash to support their agenda in NI.  

 

Its how how it works, you want our support what’s in it for us, all minority parties do it.

Of course. The DUP might be odious with bad hair but no different to any other party looking to further their party.

[Brighton Jambo]

26 minutes ago, Boab said:

Of course. The DUP might be odious with bad hair but no different to any other party looking to further their party.

Haha that ‘bad hair’ line wins post of the day!  Too funny 

[Justin Z]

44 minutes ago, Adam Murray said:

But then that suits the SNP, it's nationalism, it creates barriers between people, and divisiveness.

 

Not following this at all

[Adam Murray]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Not following this at all

 

Maybe just my opinion, I just think most forms of nationalism creates divisiveness.

[doctor jambo]

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

I want to see Boris vs Jeremy. Everyone else is an irrelevance.

I would say that Jeremy is an irrelevance.

He is hamstringing his own party.

There is not a cat in hells chance that he will find himself in power on his own.

Its Boris against everyone else.

Labour are at present just another struggling minority party

[Pasquale for King]

42 minutes ago, Adam Murray said:

 

I did say 'the campaign for a re-run seemed to happen the day after the referendum result'.

And it's the SNP, it's their main goal in politics, if they weren't planning for an Indyref 2 the day after they lost the first one, they wouldn't be doing their job properly.

Maybe it's just in my mind, but it seems as though we've been in a constant state of neverendum since about 2011, and if Nicola Sturgeon has her way there'll be another two next year.

But then that suits the SNP, it's nationalism, it creates barriers between people, and divisiveness.

 

With regards the grievance claim, there's literally too many to mention, but the thing is, you and other Independence supporters wont see them as being grievances, you'll see them as being genuine concerns, whilst Unionist and No voters see them as being mock grievance, that's the way it is, and by the looks of people's entrenched views, it's not going to change.

 

And round and round we go.

The only people who started the campaign was Cameron and every unionist party since September 19th 2019. It’s the Tories up here who talk about Independence more than the SNP, closely followed by Labour and Lib Dem’s. They all use the 2014 referendum to gain voted for themselves, have little in the way of actual progressive policies and can’t marry their own objections to another referendum with Brexit. The Tories are saying let’s get Brexit done, ignoring as usual the average of 62% who voted remain. Labour don’t want another Indy ref but might “allow” one and want another Brexit ref but don’t know 🤔🤷🏾‍♂️? Libs want another EU ref and will impose one if they can, but under no circumstances want another Indy ref? Democrats 🤔?

 

Most Yes activists are actually alarmed at how little preparation the SNP and the two people who run it have done. As for their significance or power they will yield they’ve won every election in all forms recently and have been in power for 12 years.

British nationalism is far more destructive, as history shows, than the civic nationalism espoused by most people that want Scotland to simply run its own affairs, and use its resources for the good of its people not the 1%.

[Pasquale for King]

53 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Nicola Sturgeon has very publicly  said that any leader who wants her support should even ‘pick up the phone’ if they won’t offer a second referendum.

 

thats her demand and fair enough.

 

not sure why it worse for the DUP to demand additional cash to support their agenda in NI.  

 

Its how how it works, you want our support what’s in it for us, all minority parties do it.

Not quite, she has specifically said no deal will be done with the Tories.

It would be interesting to see if Johnson offered another Indy ref within the next two years for her support.

[Justin Z]

Just now, Adam Murray said:

Maybe just my opinion, I just think most forms of nationalism creates divisiveness.

 

Ah okay.

 

I mean, it's a pretty deep question, isn't it? Maybe they do. The struggle for rights and freedoms and the like are rarely gentle affairs, but are often extremely worthwhile. So it then becomes a question of whether the divisiveness created is ultimately worth the trouble.

 

And well, I feel like the status quo in the UK is pretty divisive, and as well, that all forms of non-representative rule are divisive. Or even taking my own experience of trying to immigrate: I've spent countless amounts of money and time, taken a master's degree, I want to be here, want to be a part of this place, and yet the current masters of the home office say no, not unless you can jump through hoops W, X, Y and Z, find yourself a visa sponsor, and we're still not guaranteeing anything, even though you can clearly contribute to the society and economy.

 

Well I just had my only two prospects after two months of searching, fall through in the span of 90 minutes last week, and I'm back to square one with three months to go before I'm chucked out. Boy, do I feel completely estranged from all of you right now. Divisive indeed.

 

By contrast, Sturgeon has consistently hammered the ideal that if you want to be Scottish, you can be--full stop. That's about the least divisive thing I can think of.

 

So . . . yes, I don't think it's unreasonable to posit a degree of divisiveness inherent in any sort of struggle for self-determination--you're right, that's probably an inevitable effect. I do think it's unreasonable if it's not compared against the backdrop of the status quo.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I know I am traditionally SNP bad for all things but this is a honestly a genuine question and not loaded!!

 

what do we think about them going to court to challenge being part of the debate?

 

On the one hand they are the third largest party so that works in their favour

 

on the other they are a party that only stands in 10% of all seats and by their very definition will never look to stand across the UK.  So why should they be part of a UK level debate?

 

what is people’s views?? 

Scotland debates only for me. But they should not be mentioned by the other parties. Otherwise they should be represented to fight their corner. 

And I think Ian Blackford should be debating, not the FM.

[coconut doug]

5 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

Firstly,  the SNP made a firm and clear commitment that  the  referendum in 2014 would settle the issue for at least a generation. They  did not say that they reserved the right to abandon that commitment in certain circumstances and onward election results based on wider policies. Is that right?.

 

NO got 55% of the vote in the referendum and the YES side have got nowhere near that in any election in terms of percentages or total votes. Is that right?

 

Despite this I have called on this board  for a few years for another referendum to put nonsense on stilts back to the people to end the unrest and division being fostered by the SNP in Scotland. I'm no feart.

 

You say that voting for the SNP would be a mandate  for another referendum then surely you would agree that the SNP should say this clearly so that folk who do not want another referendum never mind independence know exactly what they are voting for?

 

I return to my question  about Nicola asking unionists to lend their vote to block Brexit but saying she will not talk to any other party that will not grant another referendum. So if a coalition offers a real prospect of stopping Brexit she will refuse to speak to them? Is that not deception?

 

 

 

Taking your last point first and repeating the observation I made in my previous response to you. Inviting people to vote SNP in order to help prevent Brexit is not in any way deception. The SNP has made it clear that they will not enter into any agreements with any party that stands in the way of a second referendum. This is clearly stated and if you people are not aware of it then the SNP cannot be blamed for those people who are ignorant of it. There now seems to be a sizeable body of uninformed people in this category according to some on here but it still does not make it a deception.

 

   I already explained that if you do not want a second Indyref then perhaps you should vote Lib Dem if you feel so strongly about preventing Brexit. The problem you have if you do vote Lib Dem is that you will be unlikely to have contributed to any seat gains from pro Brexit parties and will be likely to have helped the Tories to victory in some cases.

 

For the poster who thinks he cannot vote for the SNP but wants another referendum before the GE, I have news for you, you’re not getting one and if you want to stop Brexit at all you will most likely need a 3 way coalition with Labour, Lib Dems and the SNP. The likelihood of that happening is much reduced if Scottish voters do not vote SNP. It’s almost as if the Brexit brigade realise this and are trying to discourage the less active unionists in Scotland from lending their vote to the SNP. As usual they are being played by the Tories and Farage’s mob and many will fall for it all over again.

 

  In any case why should this 3 way coalition not support another referendum if Scotland’s biggest party is the SNP? It’s not very democratic if you oppose it,is it?  You might not be feart but there are many who are. Labour and the Libdems know the SNP position and in this scenario just like individual voters they will have to decide whether they think leaving the EU is a price worth paying in order to prevent Scottish voters having their democratic rights and determining their own future.

 

      Nicola’s other point is that the SNP have been the most effective party at opposing Brexit with the efforts of Cherry and others getting UK wide recognition. I’m not sure what the LibDems have done other than abandon their policy of a second EU referendum for an undemocratic revoke article 50 policy and now I think they have reinstated their second referendum policy. A bit like Labour their policies are undemocratic, inconsistent and all over the place.

 

 The best way to resist Brexit IMO is to vote SNP and you might think that the possibility of Independence could lead to a softening of Tory attitudes to the EU. It might put pressure on their negotiating team but maybe the reality is that they would be happy to get rid of the EU and Scotland in one fell swoop. It’s been interesting to see that English voters now value the union with Scotland much less than they value those with Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

 As for your statements about the last referendum being settled for a generation and that being a clear and firm commitment by the SNP then I don’t recognise it. I heard AS and NS talking about a once in generation chance or opportunity but these statements were not manifesto commitments they were attempts to persuade people to vote indy in 2014 and not put off their decision making until later.

 

 In fact the SNP manifesto stated that in the event of the UK being taken out of the EU and Scotland not wishing to do so “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.” You should also note that Indyref2 can be justified on the basis of clear and sustained evidence that indy is the preferred option of the majority of the Scottish people which totally contradicts your notion that the matter has been settled for a generation. Do you really think that the SNP were going to throw the towel in for a generation after taking independence support from 20 odd percent to almost 45% during the indyref campaign.

 

 You’re asking me if I the Yes side got anywhere near the No sides 55% well it depends on whether you think 50% is near but that’s not the issue any more. The issue now is which union do you want to remain in and that is a material change whether you like it or not. You will. I hope be aware that the No side promised us that voting No was the only way to stay in the EU. Some people in Scotland think that what happened was a betrayal by No and would now vote for Scottish independence if offered the chance. It seems they are to be denied this opportunity if Unionist parties are to be believed. Was it a deception to ask us to vote No on the basis that was the only way to remain in the EU? Significant numbers of people in Labour and the Tories campaigned to leave after their parties promised us that a No vote meant staying in the EU.

 

    Do you think there is anybody in Scotland who votes SNP, or is considering doing so, who does not know that they are in favour of independence and that they will push the independence agenda at every opportunity?

[doctor jambo]

19 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Not quite, she has specifically said no deal will be done with the Tories.

It would be interesting to see if Johnson offered another Indy ref within the next two years for her support.

There is  no way she would take any deal from the Tories, her entire raison d'etre is that they are super evil and to blame for everything.

It would be political suicide in Scotland

[maroonlegions]