Levein’s time is up...

[leginten]

38 minutes ago, Mort said:

Its strange to me that people think we have progressed this year. If you want to call progress getting an easy run in cup draws then that's about all it covers. Still see the same turgid rubbish on the park week in week out and that's with 18 signings in the summer!

 

We need an urgent change of direction on the park.

 

You can only beat who you’re drawn against in the cups, and we’ve done that. Partick was nearly our banana skin, but thankfully we made it through. We should have beaten everyone we’ve encountered, yes. We’ve been favourites in every cup game we’ve played this season. It’s a bit like putting on a four-team accumulator - even though you choose teams which should win, usually the odds are still against all four to win, and one usually lets you down. (There’s also the technicality of whether we should have been dumped out of the LC for the ineligible player - 2 points was a highly unusual punishment - but that’s an off-field matter.) 

 

Agree about the turgid rubbish we’re watching. Dreadful football which would just about be tolerable if it was bringing results. But it isn’t, and the team looks directionless and demotivated. Our points total since we first lost at Ibrox this season is appalling. Anyone talking about progress probably doesn’t sit through matches and must have very low standards indeed. I hope we get through the rest of the season without being absolutely mauled in the two most important games but unless there’s a bit more fight about the team, I’m not optimistic.

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, Mort said:

Its strange to me that people think we have progressed this year. If you want to call progress getting an easy run in cup draws then that's about all it covers. Still see the same turgid rubbish on the park week in week out and that's with 18 signings in the summer!

 

We need an urgent change of direction on the park.

 

The reason people are in disagreement is because we have progressed in some areas and regressed in other areas. In terms of points achieved, league wins and cup runs we’ve progressed. In terms of goals scored, goals conceded and general watchability, we’ve regressed. Just depends what you put more weight on.

[Robbo-Jambo]

8 hours ago, siegementality said:

A defeat at the weekend will be the end for Levein. 

No it wont.

 

He will leading the team out at Hampden no matter what.

[Robbo-Jambo]

21 minutes ago, leginten said:

 

You can only beat who you’re drawn against in the cups, and we’ve done that. Partick was nearly our banana skin, but thankfully we made it through. We should have beaten everyone we’ve encountered, yes. We’ve been favourites in every cup game we’ve played this season. It’s a bit like putting on a four-team accumulator - even though you choose teams which should win, usually the odds are still against all four to win, and one usually lets you down. (There’s also the technicality of whether we should have been dumped out of the LC for the ineligible player - 2 points was a highly unusual punishment - but that’s an off-field matter.) 

 

Agree about the turgid rubbish we’re watching. Dreadful football which would just about be tolerable if it was bringing results. But it isn’t, and the team looks directionless and demotivated. Our points total since we first lost at Ibrox this season is appalling. Anyone talking about progress probably doesn’t sit through matches and must have very low standards indeed. I hope we get through the rest of the season without being absolutely mauled in the two most important games but unless there’s a bit more fight about the team, I’m not optimistic.

Good post.

[Finlay James]

5 hours ago, RudiHMFC said:

 

Ok yeh, perfect sense as ever.

 

Far too easy to wind you up

[Romulus]

1 hour ago, To Be Frank said:

 

The reason people are in disagreement is because we have progressed in some areas and regressed in other areas. In terms of points achieved, league wins and cup runs we’ve progressed. In terms of goals scored, goals conceded and general watchability, we’ve regressed. Just depends what you put more weight on.

Regardless of the points, goals for and against stats, we are 6th in the league for yet another season and that is unacceptable for Hearts. In terms of watchability, if the football improves then the results should follow. We have watched too much of the same performances for nearly 2 seasons now and its time for drastic change.

[Alex Kintner]

4 minutes ago, Mort said:

Regardless of the points, goals for and against stats, we are 6th in the league for yet another season and that is unacceptable for Hearts. In terms of watchability, if the football improves then the results should follow. We have watched too much of the same performances for nearly 2 seasons now and its time for drastic change.

 

Like I said, everyone has their own interpretation of the facts. There are some who believe his first spell was turgid but we finishing 3rd back to back so that doesn’t really tie in with the quality of football = results. It’s about finding a winning formula that works most weeks. I don’t buy into the whole minset of having to play silky, attacking football but also acknowledge the standard of football for two thirds of this season has been poor.

 

It’s about finding the balance and if he stays in charge then he will need to make sure he balances the robustness of the team with creativity/matchwinners to get the job done.

[mitch41]

13 minutes ago, To Be Frank said:

 

Like I said, everyone has their own interpretation of the facts. There are some who believe his first spell was turgid but we finishing 3rd back to back so that doesn’t really tie in with the quality of football = results. It’s about finding a winning formula that works most weeks. I don’t buy into the whole minset of having to play silky, attacking football but also acknowledge the standard of football for two thirds of this season has been poor.

 

It’s about finding the balance and if he stays in charge then he will need to make sure he balances the robustness of the team with creativity/matchwinners to get the job done.

You can get all the creative/matchwinners you want but when the management of the team is out of their depth  Hearts will get nowhere.

[sandylejambo]

A balance of points, effort and talent is not too much to ask for, is it? Points have been very hard to come by lately, effort is severely lacking these days and the talent he has brought to the club is not of any note, he is failing on any basic level of management and as such should be gone from his job.

[SuperstarSteve]

Regardless if we finish 6th and lose the final levein is staying untill end of next season minimum. 

[siegementality]

8 hours ago, Austin MacGlee said:

You reckon? Even with a cup final only weeks away? I can't see it. I want him gone but what's the point at this stage in the season?

I don’t mean that he’ll be sacked immediately thereafter. I mean that a defeat will mean the end of him having any future as Hearts manager. He’ll get to the end of the season, but he’ll be gone after that.

[siegementality]

6 minutes ago, SuperstarSteve said:

Regardless if we finish 6th and lose the final levein is staying untill end of next season minimum. 

I certainly hope not.

[siegementality]

14 minutes ago, sandylejambo said:

A balance of points, effort and talent is not too much to ask for, is it? Points have been very hard to come by lately, effort is severely lacking these days and the talent he has brought to the club is not of any note, he is failing on any basic level of management and as such should be gone from his job.

With a wee certificate celebrating his achievements.

[SuperstarSteve]

32 minutes ago, siegementality said:

I certainly hope not.

110%. Maybe no guaranteed the end of next season, as who knows how it will go, he will be leading us out first home game of the season though. 

[andydog]

Cathro in the league: W5 - D4 - L13

last 24 league games - W7 - D4 - L13 

 

If Cathro is accepted as the worst ever manager then they way things are going don't look good for Levein at the moment.

 

I've been reluctant to turn on Levein but the last few games have taken it beyond the point where I can give him the benefit of the doubt and a trying to take into account injuries etc. 

 

CL is here util the end of the season, if we lose the cup final as expected I hope he is moved on although it is by no means a certainty. If we win hopefully he bows out in the glory of bringing a trophy back to gorgie.

[merseyjambo]

8 hours ago, Finlay James said:

Here's a radical thought, why don't we all support the team, encourage them to win as many games as possible between now and the end of the season and hopefully see us lift the cup.

 

We need a change of manager, that is clear but it won't happen between now and May 25th so why don't those of us on here who actually support Hearts, get behind the team and stop whinging.

 

Heres a radical thought, people pay money to watch Hearts through season tickets, FOH, merchandise etc so they do support the club financially and get behind their team at the game

 

It doesn’t mean they have to be happy with the product on the park.

 

So maybe you need to wind it in a little and look at the reality of where our club is ON THE PARK which is where there needs to be vast improvement 

 

[leginten]

We’ve been poor for seven months now. Wonderful progress in August and September, then Naismith gets injured and it immediately becomes clear that without him there is no spark or creativity in the squad. As someone said the other day, building your squad around one player - especially an injury-prone one - does not amount to a strategy. No Plan B.

 

Each month since then has contained performances that were unacceptable. And we are shit to watch. Masses of empty seats last Saturday. Struggling to sell out ER.

 

People who come out with the “progress” chat just make themselves look daft. Especially in the context of a football forum. Seven months of regression. 

 

And the “I can see the bigger picture” merchants -  don’t you just love them - have no more idea than anyone else what the future holds. Speculation. Jam tomorrow. 

[innerjambo]

24 minutes ago, leginten said:

We’ve been poor for seven months now. Wonderful progress in August and September, then Naismith gets injured and it immediately becomes clear that without him there is no spark or creativity in the squad. As someone said the other day, building your squad around one player - especially an injury-prone one - does not amount to a strategy. No Plan B.

 

Each month since then has contained performances that were unacceptable. And we are shit to watch. Masses of empty seats last Saturday. Struggling to sell out ER.

 

People who come out with the “progress” chat just make themselves look daft. Especially in the context of a football forum. Seven months of regression. 

 

And the “I can see the bigger picture” merchants -  don’t you just love them - have no more idea than anyone else what the future holds. Speculation. Jam tomorrow. 

 

This is exactly the reality of the situation. The Happy Clappers members club clutching at straws, hoping we win a game of football so they can all come out the woodwork and say, told you so, Craig Levein has this covered. 

[JamboAl]

2 hours ago, mitch41 said:

You can get all the creative/matchwinners you want but when the management of the team is out of their depth  Hearts will get nowhere.

I'm amazed you haven't mentioned this before.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, merseyjambo said:

 

Heres a radical thought, people pay money to watch Hearts through season tickets, FOH, merchandise etc so they do support the club financially and get behind their team at the game

 

It doesn’t mean they have to be happy with the product on the park.

 

So maybe you need to wind it in a little and look at the reality of where our club is ON THE PARK which is where there needs to be vast improvement 

 

 

Let's be honest here. Some folk have wanted Levein out from day 1 for some reason. And Neilson, simply because he was seen as Levein's appointment.

 

In reality a 5 year period containing a Championship win (ahead of predictions), a 3rd, a couple of 5ths and a cup final is an average to good 5 year period. Without the Cathro debacle we would have done better, tat set us back. A cup win would make it well above average. It's certainly not been this disastrous period some make it out to be, considering we've also been recovering from admin, building a stand and installing a new pitch at the same time, not to mention experiencing the worst season or two for injuries to key players probably any of us can remember.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Guest

[tcjambo]

12 hours ago, heartandsoul said:

This

Rubbish. The final is all that counts now.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, leginten said:

We’ve been poor for seven months now. Wonderful progress in August and September, then Naismith gets injured and it immediately becomes clear that without him there is no spark or creativity in the squad. As someone said the other day, building your squad around one player - especially an injury-prone one - does not amount to a strategy. No Plan B.

 

Each month since then has contained performances that were unacceptable. And we are shit to watch. Masses of empty seats last Saturday. Struggling to sell out ER.

 

People who come out with the “progress” chat just make themselves look daft. Especially in the context of a football forum. Seven months of regression. 

 

And the “I can see the bigger picture” merchants -  don’t you just love them - have no more idea than anyone else what the future holds. Speculation. Jam tomorrow. 

 

This is an important point. If you've been following Hearts for any length of time, you'll know we're as likely to finish 3rd after finishing 5th or 6th as we are to finish 5th or 6th after finishing 3rd. No-one can predict what any new season will bring - that's the fun of it for me anyhow. We're never going to get constant progress and we're never going to see constant decline. We'll be shuffling up and down between 3rd and 6th for eternity no matter who our manager is, maybe with odd amazing season or disastrous season thrown in.

 

This however is an unusual season as it's a cup final season. Putting the bickering about managers and styles aside, and especially the booing, and just backing the team for a few weeks doesn't seem too much to ask for.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Guest

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

1 hour ago, leginten said:

We’ve been poor for seven months now. Wonderful progress in August and September, then Naismith gets injured and it immediately becomes clear that without him there is no spark or creativity in the squad. As someone said the other day, building your squad around one player - especially an injury-prone one - does not amount to a strategy. No Plan B.

 

Each month since then has contained performances that were unacceptable. And we are shit to watch. Masses of empty seats last Saturday. Struggling to sell out ER.

 

People who come out with the “progress” chat just make themselves look daft. Especially in the context of a football forum. Seven months of regression. 

 

And the “I can see the bigger picture” merchants -  don’t you just love them - have no more idea than anyone else what the future holds. Speculation. Jam tomorrow. 

 

Our fundamental issue is recruitment. It’s been so bad for so long that we now have a squad with no coherent thread running through, no stock of players who are proven in delivering for this club (something our better sides over the years always, always had), a massive derth of basic talent and, quite honestly, limited motivation.

 

Levein isn’t cutting it, that’s obvious, and it’s not healthy having someone at the club who looks untouchable from the owner’s point of view but our lack of backroom expertise goes much deeper. We’ve coasted and been complacent for three years, always seeming to comfortable, and we’re now and out and out mid table team.

[innerjambo]

3 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

This is an important point. If you've been following Hearts for any length of time, you'll know we're as likely to finish 3rd after finishing 5th or 6th as we are to finish 5th or 6th after finishing 3rd. No-one can predict what any new season will bring - that's the fun of it for me anyhow. We're never going to get constant progress and we're never going to see constant decline. We'll be shuffling up and down between 3rd and 6th for eternity no matter who our manager is, maybe with odd amazing season or disastrous season thrown in.

 

Such a terrible attitude.  So, it's always been this way, and it will probably always be this way.

 

Wow, speechless.

 

[leginten]

5 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

This is an important point. If you've been following Hearts for any length of time, you'll know we're as likely to finish 3rd after finishing 5th or 6th as we are to finish 5th or 6th after finishing 3rd. No-one can predict what any new season will bring - that's the fun of it for me anyhow. We're never going to get constant progress and we're never going to see constant decline. We'll be shuffling up and down between 3rd and 6th for eternity no matter who our manager is, maybe with odd amazing season or disastrous season thrown in.

 

This however is an unusual season as it's a cup final season. Putting the bickering about managers and styles aside, and especially the booing, and just backing the team for a few weeks doesn't seem too much to ask for.

 

 

We have an opportunity right now of the kind that doesn’t come along very often in a club’s history. A clean slate. And the perception of a lot of people is that it’s being wasted. That’s the frustration. We may not win leagues. But there’s no way we should be putting out teams that perform the way ours has in certain games this season. At the moment we’re not in a good place at all.

 

I’m of the opinion that Hearts fans in general are pretty tolerant and patient. I think the support has again been good this season. We’re quite a docile lot - sometimes I wish we would make more noise. But it really takes quite a lot to get a Tynecastle crowd booing, and when it does happen it’s time for those running the club to worry.

[leginten]

14 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Our fundamental issue is recruitment. It’s been so bad for so long that we now have a squad with no coherent thread running through, no stock of players who are proven in delivering for this club (something our better sides over the years always, always had), a massive derth of basic talent and, quite honestly, limited motivation.

 

Levein isn’t cutting it, that’s obvious, and it’s not healthy having someone at the club who looks untouchable from the owner’s point of view but our lack of backroom expertise goes much deeper. We’ve coasted and been complacent for three years, always seeming to comfortable, and we’re now and out and out mid table team.

 

I think your point about complacency is a good one. Are we smug and self-satisfied? Too much mutual back-slapping about all the off-field stuff we’re told will lead to increased revenue and greater success in years to come? This is very much a here-and-now business. 

[Debut 4]

23 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Our fundamental issue is recruitment. It’s been so bad for so long that we now have a squad with no coherent thread running through, no stock of players who are proven in delivering for this club (something our better sides over the years always, always had), a massive derth of basic talent and, quite honestly, limited motivation.

 

Levein isn’t cutting it, that’s obvious, and it’s not healthy having someone at the club who looks untouchable from the owner’s point of view but our lack of backroom expertise goes much deeper. We’ve coasted and been complacent for three years, always seeming to comfortable, and we’re now and out and out mid table team.

 

4 minutes ago, leginten said:

 

I think your point about complacency is a good one. Are we smug and self-satisfied? Too much mutual back-slapping about all the off-field stuff we’re told will lead to increased revenue and greater success in years to come? This is very much a here-and-now business. 

Was just skimming and these caught my eye.  Spot on for me.  

[Nookie Bear]

20 minutes ago, leginten said:

 

We have an opportunity right now of the kind that doesn’t come along very often in a club’s history. A clean slate. And the perception of a lot of people is that it’s being wasted. That’s the frustration. We may not win leagues. But there’s no way we should be putting out teams that perform the way ours has in certain games this season. At the moment we’re not in a good place at all.

 

I’m of the opinion that Hearts fans in general are pretty tolerant and patient. I think the support has again been good this season. We’re quite a docile lot - sometimes I wish we would make more noise. But it really takes quite a lot to get a Tynecastle crowd booing, and when it does happen it’s time for those running the club to worry.

 

Spot on, especially the first paragraph. 

 

We are falling short of our potential, regardless of whether we have more points that’s last season or are in a Cup Final. The momentum of post-admin has been well and truly lost. 

[rick witter]

 

Wonder what excuses he will use after we lose on Sunday? 

Started slow

Didnt press high enough

Gave the ball away to easily 

Berra didn’t punt it long enough. 

[mitch41]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

I'm amazed you haven't mentioned this before.

At least once that I can remember.

[John mcCartney]

there needs to be moves being made to chrystallize the real concerns and unsatisfaction from the support,
is it an Edinburgh thing to be so fecking passive in this type of situation ?

 ridiculous that there hasnt been anything done at this stage,maybe were all too busy being busy and
online in downtime.or maybe were just shit.......

would love to se the hearts support galvanise publicly for change at the club

 

[thegreatsd]

It’s been a really weird season from the blistering start to a run of really poor form with a good cup run and a potentially brilliant one as well. I know the injury thing has been used a lot which got me thinking about our best starting eleven.

 

Bobby - gk

Demi, Smith, Berra and  Souttar - def

Djoum, Haring, Clare and Lee - mid

Naismith and Uche - fwd

 

Its arguably our three weakest in that side that are the only ones that haven’t suffered serious long term injuries. Our main problem has been the lack of depth in the squad to deal with multiple injuries. I think we can deal with one or two but we have had dreadful luck with injuries.  The downturn in luck has led to confidence going down as well. Even the guys coming back from injury haven’t found their previous form.

 

We need to find that confidence again quickly. I would love Levein to do well as he loves hearts as much as the rest of us. He needs a couple of big results. One on Sunday and one in the final. It can be done, although it does look like a colossal task. If he can hang in there I see no reason we can’t build on that team that had such a fine start this season. 

 

We’ve a decent core of players as we’ve seen previously and some depth in quality would make all the difference. Hopefully a fit healthy squad next season after a trip to gullane with Levein as manager parading the cup too!  But..... a bad result Sunday and a skelping in the final and it’s time up. 

 

I hope we we can do the unthinkable and we can all do our bit as supporters too. Mon the JT’s. 

 

 

 

[Alex Kintner]

5 minutes ago, John mcCartney said:

there needs to be moves being made to chrystallize the real concerns and unsatisfaction from the support,
is it an Edinburgh thing to be so fecking passive in this type of situation ?

 ridiculous that there hasnt been anything done at this stage,maybe were all too busy being busy and
online in downtime.or maybe were just shit.......

would love to se the hearts support galvanise publicly for change at the club

 

 

Hyperbole seems to be the order of the day.

[Neon]

8 minutes ago, thegreatsd said:

It’s been a really weird season from the blistering start to a run of really poor form with a good cup run and a potentially brilliant one as well. I know the injury thing has been used a lot which got me thinking about our best starting eleven.

 

Bobby - gk

Demi, Smith, Berra and  Souttar - def

Djoum, Haring, Clare and Lee - mid

Naismith and Uche - fwd

 

Its arguably our three weakest in that side that are the only ones that haven’t suffered serious long term injuries. Our main problem has been the lack of depth in the squad to deal with multiple injuries. I think we can deal with one or two but we have had dreadful luck with injuries.  The downturn in luck has led to confidence going down as well. Even the guys coming back from injury haven’t found their previous form.

 

We need to find that confidence again quickly. I would love Levein to do well as he loves hearts as much as the rest of us. He needs a couple of big results. One on Sunday and one in the final. It can be done, although it does look like a colossal task. If he can hang in there I see no reason we can’t build on that team that had such a fine start this season. 

 

We’ve a decent core of players as we’ve seen previously and some depth in quality would make all the difference. Hopefully a fit healthy squad next season after a trip to gullane with Levein as manager parading the cup too!  But..... a bad result Sunday and a skelping in the final and it’s time up. 

 

I hope we we can do the unthinkable and we can all do our bit as supporters too. Mon the JT’s. 

 

 

 

Demi was absolutely brutal this year(maybe down to position - he was never a left back), which was unfortunate (injury at the end of last season and again this year) so another left back would have been needed or another formation with a 3-5-2

 

Just shows how ravaged we have been this year, everyone with the exception of Bobby has been out due to injury.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Neon

[Martin_T]

Injuries have been unfortunate and have without doubt had a negative impact.

 

But we have a big squad and should still be able to put out a competitive side regardless. Despite several transfer windows where there has been significant recruitment, the squad is still very unbalanced. We have two senior wingers in the squad, both of whom had no significant game time at premier League level prior to this season. We seem to stockpile right backs (Smith, Godinho, Brandon, and Dikamona have all played there this season) but despite several attempts, have yet to sign a unquestionably first choice left back. We play direct football to a target man, yet only have one senior centre forward who can play that role.

 

Injuries do not also explain the lack of any obvious game plan for how the team goes forward. We seem to set up to try and limit the opposition but have no idea as to how to break teams down.

 

I think CL has earned a crack at the cup final, but I think we need fresh ideas beyond that.

[shaun.lawson]

4 hours ago, SuperstarSteve said:

Regardless if we finish 6th and lose the final levein is staying untill end of next season minimum. 

 

If so, this is both crackers, and completely unacceptable. He should go in the summer, whether we win or lose the final.

 

1 hour ago, ToqueJambo said:

We'll be shuffling up and down between 3rd and 6th for eternity no matter who our manager is, maybe with odd amazing season or disastrous season thrown in.

 

 

See this though? It's true. It was as good as true under Mercer, Robinson, and Romanov. Three people who ran the club in completely different ways - but neither Celtic nor Rangers are ever going anywhere, and both will start every season with every chance of finishing way above everyone else.

 

56 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Spot on, especially the first paragraph. 

 

We are falling short of our potential, regardless of whether we have more points that’s last season or are in a Cup Final. The momentum of post-admin has been well and truly lost. 

 

Here's a question though. What is Hearts' 'potential'?

 

It's certainly not finishing 6th or playing horribly dull, uncreative football. But what is the potential of any club with gates of under 20,000, in a poor league (which means there's no chance of much progress in Europe) with two giants? 

 

Plenty said that 2005/6 showed our 'potential'. No it didn't. It just showed what spending double what we could afford could bring. If Hearts showed our 'potential' then, we might as well argue Fulham showed theirs by piling up 200m of debt and reaching the Europa League Final. 

 

I think Hearts' potential is to play attractive, passing football under a young, driven manager, and develop an effective youth system which makes us self-sufficient. I think Hearts' potential *could* involve doing it all differently: first and foremost, with a manager from overseas with very different ideas. But we'll always sell players; we'll always have to break up good sides and start again; and we're unlikely to win all that much. That's just the reality.

 

I've often wondered about the part 1986 plays in all this. A whole generation saw Hearts almost win the league. Many of them won't feel fulfilled unless we do someday win it. But winning it is essentially impossible. Budge's only real crime is to as good as acknowledge that.

 

We can dream about a different owner coming in and demanding nothing less than the title. That's how it'd work in other sports. But not in Greed Is Good football. Financial reality is financial reality, sadly.

[Nookie Bear]

7 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

If so, this is both crackers, and completely unacceptable. He should go in the summer, whether we win or lose the final.

 

 

See this though? It's true. It was as good as true under Mercer, Robinson, and Romanov. Three people who ran the club in completely different ways - but neither Celtic nor Rangers are ever going anywhere, and both will start every season with every chance of finishing way above everyone else.

 

 

Here's a question though. What is Hearts' 'potential'?

 

It's certainly not finishing 6th or playing horribly dull, uncreative football. But what is the potential of any club with gates of under 20,000, in a poor league (which means there's no chance of much progress in Europe) with two giants? 

 

Plenty said that 2005/6 showed our 'potential'. No it didn't. It just showed what spending double what we could afford could bring. If Hearts showed our 'potential' then, we might as well argue Fulham showed theirs by piling up 200m of debt and reaching the Europa League Final. 

 

I think Hearts' potential is to play attractive, passing football under a young, driven manager, and develop an effective youth system which makes us self-sufficient. I think Hearts' potential *could* involve doing it all differently: first and foremost, with a manager from overseas with very different ideas. But we'll always sell players; we'll always have to break up good sides and start again; and we're unlikely to win all that much. That's just the reality.

 

I've often wondered about the part 1986 plays in all this. A whole generation saw Hearts almost win the league. Many of them won't feel fulfilled unless we do someday win it. But winning it is essentially impossible. Budge's only real crime is to as good as acknowledge that.

 

We can dream about a different owner coming in and demanding nothing less than the title. That's how it'd work in other sports. But not in Greed Is Good football. Financial reality is financial reality, sadly.

 

I’ll come back to the rest of that post later perhaps but I can unequivocally state that 1986 has nothing to do with where we are now and I don’t know anyone who sees winning the league as an ambition in the current circumstances (those circumstances being two huge clubs in our league and ever diminishing returns from Euro qualification etc)

[Guest]

2 hours ago, innerjambo said:

 

Such a terrible attitude.  So, it's always been this way, and it will probably always be this way.

 

Wow, speechless.

 

 

What attitude? In what way can I influence how Hearts do other than supporting the team through thick and thin and being realistic about what we can achieve every year? Withdraw my support every time we have a meh season? 

 

Of course we can build another great team with a great manager. How long do you think that team will stay together and how long would we keep the manager? That’s the reality for every club our size. A couple of good seasons, a couple of meh seasons and a very good or very bad season. Thats our usual 5 year period.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, leginten said:

 

We have an opportunity right now of the kind that doesn’t come along very often in a club’s history. A clean slate. And the perception of a lot of people is that it’s being wasted. That’s the frustration. We may not win leagues. But there’s no way we should be putting out teams that perform the way ours has in certain games this season. At the moment we’re not in a good place at all.

 

I’m of the opinion that Hearts fans in general are pretty tolerant and patient. I think the support has again been good this season. We’re quite a docile lot - sometimes I wish we would make more noise. But it really takes quite a lot to get a Tynecastle crowd booing, and when it does happen it’s time for those running the club to worry.

 

It does come back to injuries to key players doesn't it to an extent surely? There are always influencing factors in every season. How good would JJ's best team without Cameron have been for example? Who would have replaced him? Or Doddie's team without Robbo? Or even Sergio's without Skacel? Would we have beaten Celtic in the semi with no Rudi?Would those teams have picked up after losing momentum the way we did this season? 

 

At our level in this league, injuries to these sorts of outstanding, irreplaceable players would have cost us cups and 10 or 15 more points a season potentially, like this season.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Guest

[shaun.lawson]

43 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I’ll come back to the rest of that post later perhaps but I can unequivocally state that 1986 has nothing to do with where we are now and I don’t know anyone who sees winning the league as an ambition in the current circumstances (those circumstances being two huge clubs in our league and ever diminishing returns from Euro qualification etc)

 

So as even 2nd place gets essentially nothing now, what is the ambition?

 

That's why I think Hearts need to look at our whole approach to football and style of play. If we can't win the league and can't make tracks in Europe, it has to be about entertainment, no? 

 

As for what I meant about 1986: how many Hearts fans were delighted by finishing 3rd in 2011 or 2016? There were constant complaints. Even though in 2011, we finished as high as was humanly possible... and 2016 was our first season back up! Plenty of complaints about Sergio too - even though he won the Cup against a backdrop of our players not being paid at all for weeks on end.

 

Complain about a Cup-winning manager. Complain when finishing 3rd. Complain, bitterly in many cases, about a manager, Robbie, whose record was superb.

 

So - what is our ambition and what in the world will it take to make us happy?

[Nookie Bear]

27 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

So as even 2nd place gets essentially nothing now, what is the ambition?

 

That's why I think Hearts need to look at our whole approach to football and style of play. If we can't win the league and can't make tracks in Europe, it has to be about entertainment, no? 

 

As for what I meant about 1986: how many Hearts fans were delighted by finishing 3rd in 2011 or 2016? There were constant complaints. Even though in 2011, we finished as high as was humanly possible... and 2016 was our first season back up! Plenty of complaints about Sergio too - even though he won the Cup against a backdrop of our players not being paid at all for weeks on end.

 

Complain about a Cup-winning manager. Complain when finishing 3rd. Complain, bitterly in many cases, about a manager, Robbie, whose record was superb.

 

So - what is our ambition and what in the world will it take to make us happy?

 

At this current time it’s impossible to visualise is sustaining a league challenge but who knows how things will unfold 5/10/15 years down the line and we need to be ready for it. 

 

When we emerged from Admin we had a team of academy talent and some shrewd purchases that seemed to fit the style of play and the positions they were asked to play in. That is the model for pretty much every club on the planet but we have, relatively speaking, a bigger financial clout than most of our competitors so we need to make that advantage work. 

 

As for entertainment, I’m not sure I could define what makes a style of play attractive and, if I could, it would probably be different from yours. 

[leginten]

58 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

It does come back to injuries to key players doesn't it to an extent surely? There are always influencing factors in every season. How good would JJ's best team without Cameron have been for example? Who would have replaced him? Or Doddie's team without Robbo? Or even Sergio's without Skacel? Would we have beaten Celtic in the semi with no Rudi?Would those teams have picked up after losing momentum the way we did this season? 

 

At our level in this league, injuries to these sorts of outstanding, irreplaceable players would have cost us cups and 10 or 15 more points a season potentially, like this season.

 

I think in terms of the season falling apart as spectacularly as it has done we’re talking injury, singular. And the wisdom or otherwise of building your team around that player, as well as the astonishing lack of quality amongst the very many players who have been brought in. Sometimes you can cope with lack of quality if you are well organised and play with urgency, determination and the will to win. None of that is on show at the moment. We are pedestrian, shambolic and look as if nobody really gives a toss. We’re a soft touch. That is unacceptable.

[merseyjambo]

9 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Let's be honest here. Some folk have wanted Levein out from day 1 for some reason. And Neilson, simply because he was seen as Levein's appointment.

 

In reality a 5 year period containing a Championship win (ahead of predictions), a 3rd, a couple of 5ths and a cup final is an average to good 5 year period. Without the Cathro debacle we would have done better, tat set us back. A cup win would make it well above average. It's certainly not been this disastrous period some make it out to be, considering we've also been recovering from admin, building a stand and installing a new pitch at the same time, not to mention experiencing the worst season or two for injuries to key players probably any of us can remember.

 

I had absolutely no issue with Neilson. His football in the Championship and for about 10 games in the first season back in SPL was as good as that we payed under Burley with a lower quality of player. The beating from Aberdeen sent his football into a more defensive style and protecting a lead. 

 

I certainly didn't want CL for several reasons 

 

- his style of football first time round was very much safety first

- the Cathro experiment was his and his alone and for that reason he should have gone. Football is a business and you don’t keep an appointment who had personally recruited a disaster and cost the company a lot of money in the form of a salary and release fee 

- the boot room philosophy is completely outdated and harks back to an era where things were different

- if we had all these ‘quality’ applicants after Cathro, how come the shortlist was 2 ex players with extremely average managerial careers, an odious little twerp who had been out of management for a while and is probably as outdated in his methods as CL and Jon Daly. What had he done to deserve being on the list. He had zero managerial experience and AB had said prior to recruiting that we were not going to go with inexperience again so why did he even make the short list for interview. 

 

Its nothing against CL from the player that he was and what he did for the club and I don’t buy into the serial loser bollocks. 

 

Since his appointment, we’ve lumbered along playing football that is quite frankly horrendous at times.

 

What I don’t get is that CL played in teams under Doddie that might not have had the best players but they were by in large always competitive and didn’t give the opponents a minutes peace. If he’s trying to emulate the style under Doddie by using the target man, he’s forgotten that we had a poacher who could feed off the knockdowns and score 20 goals a season, a winger who could beat a man and cross a ball, a midfielder who would go box to box and run in behind the forwards and an enforcer. Other than the enforcer-ish and target man we have none of the rest. 

 

His is apparent lack of a Plan B is frightening, his continual we didn’t start quickly enough or didn’t press chat after every defeat is becoming tedious and his ability to have our owner believing everything coming out his mouth is scary. 

 

We we are at present a mediocre soft touch team that has been given an almost hand picked draw to get to a major final, the ones we usually complain about Celtic or Rangers getting. 

 

Off the the park as a business things are probably as good as I’ve seen in all my years of supporting the club, on the park which is where most punters want to see product, well I’m sorry but things are going downhill. You point to Cathro as a debacle and a setback. Whose recommendation got him appointed and when it failed, who should have carried the can for it. Far from fixing the issue, he’s morphed us into Cathro’s team, no urgency, imbalanced and playing boring football most weeks. 

 

As a Hearts fan, I’ve seen us take beatings before but at leat we’ve put up a fight but the last team I remember having this little fight was the one that got relegated in 79/80 and the one that lost to Forfar in the Scottish Cup playing in front of a couple of thousand fans.

 

I don’t expect right and entitlement or to be winning every game or challenging for the title but I do expect us to go out give teams a game even if we get beat and play with a bit of heart and pride. Something that at present is not evident

 

[siegementality]

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

If so, this is both crackers, and completely unacceptable. He should go in the summer, whether we win or lose the final.

 

 

See this though? It's true. It was as good as true under Mercer, Robinson, and Romanov. Three people who ran the club in completely different ways - but neither Celtic nor Rangers are ever going anywhere, and both will start every season with every chance of finishing way above everyone else.

 

 

Here's a question though. What is Hearts' 'potential'?

 

It's certainly not finishing 6th or playing horribly dull, uncreative football. But what is the potential of any club with gates of under 20,000, in a poor league (which means there's no chance of much progress in Europe) with two giants? 

 

Plenty said that 2005/6 showed our 'potential'. No it didn't. It just showed what spending double what we could afford could bring. If Hearts showed our 'potential' then, we might as well argue Fulham showed theirs by piling up 200m of debt and reaching the Europa League Final. 

 

I think Hearts' potential is to play attractive, passing football under a young, driven manager, and develop an effective youth system which makes us self-sufficient. I think Hearts' potential *could* involve doing it all differently: first and foremost, with a manager from overseas with very different ideas. But we'll always sell players; we'll always have to break up good sides and start again; and we're unlikely to win all that much. That's just the reality.

 

I've often wondered about the part 1986 plays in all this. A whole generation saw Hearts almost win the league. Many of them won't feel fulfilled unless we do someday win it. But winning it is essentially impossible. Budge's only real crime is to as good as acknowledge that.

 

We can dream about a different owner coming in and demanding nothing less than the title. That's how it'd work in other sports. But not in Greed Is Good football. Financial reality is financial reality, sadly.

Leicester City.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Ann Budge's benchmark is 4th place and we are nowhere near that. Ergo, Levein has failed and needs to go at the end of the season UNLESS he wins the cup.

 

If Levein does go, so does the whole shooting match of coaches around him. We need a fresh start.

[Hairdryer]

9 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Ann Budge's benchmark is 4th place and we are nowhere near that. Ergo, Levein has failed and needs to go at the end of the season UNLESS he wins the cup.

 

If Levein does go, so does the whole shooting match of coaches around him. We need a fresh start.

Agree with this but feel even if we win the cup he should still go

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, merseyjambo said:

 

his style of football first time round was very much safety first

 

 

It really wasn’t. Safety first football doesn’t result in winning matches 5-1, 4-2, 4-1 etc or drawing matches 4-4, 3-3 etc or losing matches 2-4, 1-6 etc.

 

Those seasons were some of the most exciting and enjoyable times to have been a Hearts fan in the past thirty years. I pity anyone who either didn’t enjoy them or who did but now feels the need to pretend they didn’t.

[shaun.lawson]

7 hours ago, siegementality said:

Leicester City.

 

Who were 5000/1. And what they did probably won't happen again for 100 years!

[Gambo]

6 hours ago, To Be Frank said:

 

It really wasn’t. Safety first football doesn’t result in winning matches 5-1, 4-2, 4-1 etc or drawing matches 4-4, 3-3 etc or losing matches 2-4, 1-6 etc.

 

Those seasons were some of the most exciting and enjoyable times to have been a Hearts fan in the past thirty years. I pity anyone who either didn’t enjoy them or who did but now feels the need to pretend they didn’t.

It really was. It was poor then especially on our travels.

[soonbe110]

6 hours ago, To Be Frank said:

 

It really wasn’t. Safety first football doesn’t result in winning matches 5-1, 4-2, 4-1 etc or drawing matches 4-4, 3-3 etc or losing matches 2-4, 1-6 etc.

 

Those seasons were some of the most exciting and enjoyable times to have been a Hearts fan in the past thirty years. I pity anyone who either didn’t enjoy them or who did but now feels the need to pretend they didn’t.

Exactly. People just make things up to support their argument. It was decent stuff and a lot of it  played out to off-field challenges as well. Just ask some of the fans who were in places like Braga or who attended MDV debut. Of course we also had to suffer boring players like Jean Louis Valois and Paul Hartley. - very boring negative types brought in by Levein first time round.