Levein’s time is up...

[soonbe110]

4 minutes ago, Gambo said:

It really was. It was poor then especially on our travels.

So you weren’t in Braga or Bordeaux or Easter Road during his first time round? 

[Alex Kintner]

10 minutes ago, Gambo said:

It really was. It was poor then especially on our travels.

 

 

Then you’re supporting the wrong team. 

[shaun.lawson]

6 hours ago, To Be Frank said:

 

It really wasn’t. Safety first football doesn’t result in winning matches 5-1, 4-2, 4-1 etc or drawing matches 4-4, 3-3 etc or losing matches 2-4, 1-6 etc.

 

Those seasons were some of the most exciting and enjoyable times to have been a Hearts fan in the past thirty years. I pity anyone who either didn’t enjoy them or who did but now feels the need to pretend they didn’t.

 

I remember arguing on here a few years back with someone about the 7-1 v Dunfermline. He insisted, contrary to anything approaching reality, that Levein had eleven men behind the ball throughout.  

 

His first spell in charge wasn't rivetingly exciting. But it was bloody good: 2002/3 especially. The spirit in the side was immense; the football very good at times.

[shaun.lawson]

30 minutes ago, Gambo said:

It really was. It was poor then especially on our travels.

 

OK Gambo, I have two questions for you. You've been following the club for decades. In your view, which Hearts managers in that time:

 

1. Oversaw exciting football?

 

2. Delivered on your expectations for the club?

[merseyjambo]

4 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

OK Gambo, I have two questions for you. You've been following the club for decades. In your view, which Hearts managers in that time:

 

1. Oversaw exciting football?

 

2. Delivered on your expectations for the club?

 

I don’t know about Gambo but for me it was Jeffries first spell when we had guys like Cameron and McCann in the team. I’d go as far to say up to the point we got the SMG money

 

CL’s football wasn’t great, you can take some results and twist it to suit whatever your point of view is but his brand of football want that great IMO

[shaun.lawson]

7 minutes ago, merseyjambo said:

 

I don’t know about Gambo but for me it was Jeffries first spell when we had guys like Cameron and McCann in the team. I’d go as far to say up to the point we got the SMG money

 

CL’s football wasn’t great, you can take some results and twist it to suit whatever your point of view is but his brand of football want that great IMO

 

I think Levein's brand of football suited our reduced circumstances. Not only that - but while our ceiling of potential was obviously higher under JJ, we were more consistent under CL. We had a 'B' game under Levein which meant we'd win while not playing well. Under Jefferies, in both his spells in charge, we were streaky: from the sublime to the ridiculous. 

 

Just to bear that out: the consistency we achieved under Levein between 2002 and 2004 was remarkable. He delivered our best post-split return ever in 03/4; and the second half of 02/3 was superb. Under JJ:

 

- We were bottom after 10 games in 95/6, before a tremendous run which encompassed the Magic Johnston game at Ibrox

 

- We were 7th at Xmas in 96/7, before another very good run immediately afterwards

 

- Three superb quarters in 97/8 gave way to a very disappointing final one

 

- Top after three games in 98/9. Bottom heading into April. Then an amazing, goals galore run to move away from danger.

 

- Great start to 99/0. Appalling run over the next 2 or 3 months. Brilliant third quarter.

 

- Incredible, extraordinary run between November 2010 and January 2011. We were very briefly title contenders. Then... total collapse! 

Edited April 25, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[soonbe110]

3 minutes ago, merseyjambo said:

 

I don’t know about Gambo but for me it was Jeffries first spell when we had guys like Cameron and McCann in the team. I’d go as far to say up to the point we got the SMG money

 

CL’s football wasn’t great, you can take some results and twist it to suit whatever your point of view is but his brand of football want that great IMO

It was, we had players like MDV, Valois, with Hartley and Hammill and others breaking through. Just check the results, plenty of goals, plenty of away wins, certainly not boring negative football as has been portrayed by some. 

[Gambo]

18 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

OK Gambo, I have two questions for you. You've been following the club for decades. In your view, which Hearts managers in that time:

 

1. Oversaw exciting football?

 

2. Delivered on your expectations for the club?

We are not talking about any other manager, we are talking about Leveins time.

[innerjambo]

His brand was football wasn't quite as shocking as it is this time around. But I remember being bored watching many of the games, and losing a bit of interest. Fast forward to 2019 and what we have now is enough to make you turn your attention to the local chess tournament for under 7s. 

[Jodami]

Managers are quite naturally of their time. The irony of Levein this season is some of the things he was particularly good at, like building a defence for instance, have been weaknesses. A spanking at Livingston of all places and sloppy goals conceded home and away against everyone. Have Dundee gained a point since we gift wrapped their win at Tynie?

We need new ideas and I don't see how Levein and the inexperienced coaches we have at the club can deliver them.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, Gambo said:

We are not talking about any other manager, we are talking about Leveins time.

 

The reason I asked is because I'm not sure any Hearts manager has ever delivered on your expectations - because your expectations of Hearts are too high.

[Inch Hearts]

9 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I think Levein's brand of football suited our reduced circumstances. Not only that - but while our ceiling of potential was obviously higher under JJ, we were more consistent under CL. We had a 'B' game under Levein which meant we'd win while not playing well. Under Jefferies, in both his spells in charge, we were streaky: from the sublime to the ridiculous. 

 

Plan B was Moose up top.  Lack of adventure or imagination in Glasgow or down at the docks.  Pressley and Webster covered his arse in many many big games.  

 

Lets not not pretend the first time round was Burley esq football, more like the Caaba fire fighting and unlike Csaba he knew when to get out first time around.  Barry basketball in a semi aside nowhere near anything trophy wise either.

 

I really hope for Craig we go on and win in May, (obviously for me and everyone I know too) but I can’t help feel it will be spoiled by “get it up you Craig haters” who seem to want us to win to get it over some than for the club to win itself.

[iwasthere1954]

1 hour ago, To Be Frank said:

 

 

Then you’re supporting the wrong team. 

Lets forget what happened 15 or so years ago. Football is a now business. It's what happens this weekend  that matters not something from the past. And if your happy with this brand of football it's you that's following the wrong team. You would be fine with Raith Rovers or Alloa perhaps.

[Guest]

I can’t believe some of the stuff about Levein in the last few posts from supposed Hearts fans.

 

His “style” is not safety first, defensive, long ball and dull - not first time around and not now. Aside from the fact his Hearts and D Utd teams were often good to watch with attacking players and got results, why on earth would he appoint two coaches in Cathro and Neilson who have stated they want to play football if that’s his preferred style?

 

The biggest flat out lie though is he’s not competitive. I can’t think of a more competitive player or manager who wanted to

win so much and hated losing.

 

He may not be making his team as competitive as they should be right now but the idea that that’s because of Levein is so stupid. 

 

Are folk forgetting the performances he got out of injured players like dikamona and haring to win the derby? Or the massive improvements in Mulraney and Clare?

 

Yes another 5th would be shit, but without a couple of the worse match deciding decisions i’ve ever seen and the injuries - all out of leveins hands - we’d be easily 5-10 Pts better off.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Guest

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I remember arguing on here a few years back with someone about the 7-1 v Dunfermline. He insisted, contrary to anything approaching reality, that Levein had eleven men behind the ball throughout.  

 

His first spell in charge wasn't rivetingly exciting. But it was bloody good: 2002/3 especially. The spirit in the side was immense; the football very good at times.

 

I would argue rivetingly exciting would be the perfect description of  02/03, especially the 5-1, 4-4 and 2-1 derbies. Football just doesn’t get much more exciting than that. 

[Gambo]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

The reason I asked is because I'm not sure any Hearts manager has ever delivered on your expectations - because your expectations of Hearts are too high.

It is too high to ask us to go out to win games as opposed not to lose them???

Really?

[Alex Kintner]

1 hour ago, merseyjambo said:

 

I don’t know about Gambo but for me it was Jeffries first spell when we had guys like Cameron and McCann in the team. I’d go as far to say up to the point we got the SMG money

 

CL’s football wasn’t great, you can take some results and twist it to suit whatever your point of view is but his brand of football want that great IMO

 

1 hour ago, innerjambo said:

His brand was football wasn't quite as shocking as it is this time around. But I remember being bored watching many of the games, and losing a bit of interest. Fast forward to 2019 and what we have now is enough to make you turn your attention to the local chess tournament for under 7s. 

 

1 hour ago, Inch Hearts said:

 

Plan B was Moose up top.  Lack of adventure or imagination in Glasgow or down at the docks.  Pressley and Webster covered his arse in many many big games.  

 

Lets not not pretend the first time round was Burley esq football, more like the Caaba fire fighting and unlike Csaba he knew when to get out first time around.  Barry basketball in a semi aside nowhere near anything trophy wise either.

 

I really hope for Craig we go on and win in May, (obviously for me and everyone I know too) but I can’t help feel it will be spoiled by “get it up you Craig haters” who seem to want us to win to get it over some than for the club to win itself.

 

I genuinely pity you. Must be dreadful being a Hearts fan when your expectations are set so high that you didn’t enjoy 02/03 or 03/04 ??‍♂️

[Pasquale for King]

20 hours ago, neonjambo said:

Demi was absolutely brutal this year(maybe down to position - he was never a left back), which was unfortunate (injury at the end of last season and again this year) so another left back would have been needed or another formation with a 3-5-2

 

Just shows how ravaged we have been this year, everyone with the exception of Bobby has been out due to injury.

 

 

Same as last season 

[Pasquale for King]

19 hours ago, Martin_T said:

Injuries have been unfortunate and have without doubt had a negative impact.

 

But we have a big squad and should still be able to put out a competitive side regardless. Despite several transfer windows where there has been significant recruitment, the squad is still very unbalanced. We have two senior wingers in the squad, both of whom had no significant game time at premier League level prior to this season. We seem to stockpile right backs (Smith, Godinho, Brandon, and Dikamona have all played there this season) but despite several attempts, have yet to sign a unquestionably first choice left back. We play direct football to a target man, yet only have one senior centre forward who can play that role.

 

Injuries do not also explain the lack of any obvious game plan for how the team goes forward. We seem to set up to try and limit the opposition but have no idea as to how to break teams down.

 

I think CL has earned a crack at the cup final, but I think we need fresh ideas beyond that.

Who are the two senior wingers? Mulraney is 23 and Morrison 19?

We have played Smith/Dikamona/Brandon/Godhino/Souttar/Hughes/Clare and Morrison at RB this season. At LB we’ve played Smith/Brandon/Godhino/Burns/Mulraney/Garuccio/Shaughnessy/Mitchell. There can’t be many clubs that have played so many players at FB this season, or last where it was just as bad. 

As you say we only have one striker that can play the style the manager prefers, after signing 20 players. 

 

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

Are people still banging on about the injuries?

#1 question why we've had so many injuries, there has been too many for it to have just been bad luck

#2 Question why we brought in so many players that weren't good enough to step up to the plate when we needed them. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by BOBTHEBRUCE

[Neon]

22 minutes ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

Are people still banging on about the injuries?

#1 question why we've had so many injuries, there has been too many for it to have just been bad luck

#2 Question why we brought in so many players that weren't good enough to step up to the plate when we needed them. 

I think everyone is scratching their head on point one, so it is a valid point.

Point two if we had not brought in so many players we would be back playing the kids - not saying that would be a bad thing but see point one in reference to them also.

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

1 minute ago, neonjambo said:

I think everyone is scratching their head on point one, so it is a valid point.

Point two if we had not brought in so many players we would be back playing the kids - not saying that would be a bad thing but see point one in reference to them also.

 

I'd have no problem with the amount of players we've brought in if they were good enough. 

A few of them aren't even as good as cochrane and Mcdonald. 

 

[Neon]

Just now, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

I'd have no problem with the amount of players we've brought in if they were good enough. 

A few of them aren't even as good as cochrane and Mcdonald. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with you but if you want seasoned pro's you need to pay for it which then leaves gaps in the squad.

If that was to happen where do we get the players to fill the inevitable injuries.

 

From Christophe doing his hamstring I have been worried about what was happening behind the scenes, we started tremendously well and fitness is a big thing for CL so I am

left thinking he is pushing too hard after the failings of Cathro not pushing them hard enough.

 

It is all supposition though - I can't believe it is just down to bad luck, maybe someone could compile a list of last seasons injuries also.

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

10 minutes ago, neonjambo said:

I'm not disagreeing with you but if you want seasoned pro's you need to pay for it which then leaves gaps in the squad.

If that was to happen where do we get the players to fill the inevitable injuries.

 

From Christophe doing his hamstring I have been worried about what was happening behind the scenes, we started tremendously well and fitness is a big thing for CL so I am

left thinking he is pushing too hard after the failings of Cathro not pushing them hard enough.

 

It is all supposition though - I can't believe it is just down to bad luck, maybe someone could compile a list of last seasons injuries also.

 

There's questions marks over so many things going on at Hearts right now. 

I think that's why a lot of us just want someone else in to take over and shake things up. 

 

[merseyjambo]

2 hours ago, To Be Frank said:

 

I would argue rivetingly exciting would be the perfect description of  02/03, especially the 5-1, 4-4 and 2-1 derbies. Football just doesn’t get much more exciting than that. 

 

You want to talk about results. Ok 4-0 gubbing at Falkirk in Scottish Cup under him or 3-1 gubbing  at Tynecastle in Scottish Cup by Inverness or a 6-1 at Motherwell or the numerous gubbings in Glasgow by the OF. 

 

Lets not kid ourselves that his first time in charge was Utopia. It wasn’t. 

 

 

[merseyjambo]

3 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I think Levein's brand of football suited our reduced circumstances. Not only that - but while our ceiling of potential was obviously higher under JJ, we were more consistent under CL. We had a 'B' game under Levein which meant we'd win while not playing well. Under Jefferies, in both his spells in charge, we were streaky: from the sublime to the ridiculous. 

 

Just to bear that out: the consistency we achieved under Levein between 2002 and 2004 was remarkable. He delivered our best post-split return ever in 03/4; and the second half of 02/3 was superb. Under JJ:

 

- We were bottom after 10 games in 95/6, before a tremendous run which encompassed the Magic Johnston game at Ibrox

 

- We were 7th at Xmas in 96/7, before another very good run immediately afterwards

 

- Three superb quarters in 97/8 gave way to a very disappointing final one

 

- Top after three games in 98/9. Bottom heading into April. Then an amazing, goals galore run to move away from danger.

 

- Great start to 99/0. Appalling run over the next 2 or 3 months. Brilliant third quarter.

 

- Incredible, extraordinary run between November 2010 and January 2011. We were very briefly title contenders. Then... total collapse! 

 

You asked what someone’s favourite spell from a manager was. I enjoyed that period. It might have been streaky but I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the football we played and the players we had in the team at the time. 

 

I didn't particularly enjoy CLs first period, yes there were decent results but also some truly horrendous ones and lumping the ball up to McKenna wasn’t exactly free flowing classic football. 

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

I'd like to add my favourite spell at Hearts in recent years. 

 

RUDI SKACEL. 

 

Who was the guy that didn't give him a new contract...

 

Aye, he was at the end of his career

It's alright to sign the likes of Hughes and Mclean though eh?

It's fine to offer coaching roles to every other tom dick and harry!

 

If anyone deserved another years contract and a coaching role, it was Skacel!

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by BOBTHEBRUCE

[Voiceofreasonfortheseason]

17 minutes ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

I'd like to add my favourite spell at Hearts in recent years. 

 

RUDI SKACEL. 

 

Who was the guy that didn't give him a new contract...

 

Aye, he was at the end of his career

It's alright to sign the likes of Hughes and Mclean though eh?

It's fine to offer coaching roles to every other tom dick and harry!

 

If anyone deserved another years contract and a coaching role, it was 

I have never thought of it that way until you put it like that. It's a good point you make

[JamboAl]

23 hours ago, leginten said:

 

I think your point about complacency is a good one. Are we smug and self-satisfied? Too much mutual back-slapping about all the off-field stuff we’re told will lead to increased revenue and greater success in years to come? This is very much a here-and-now business. 

 

You're absolutely right.

And "here and now" we don't have the finance to satisfy many people's expectations nor do we/should we have the inclination to get into debt and replicate the mess we were in just a few short years ago.

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

6 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

You're absolutely right.

And "here and now" we don't have the finance to satisfy many people's expectations nor do we/should we have the inclination to get into debt and replicate the mess we were in just a few short years ago.

 

We see the jobs that other managers do at clubs in the same league on a quarter of our budget... 

don't talk about us going into debt to be better, we just want a decent set up and  better manager to make us better. 

 

[JamboAl]

2 minutes ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

We see the jobs that other managers do at clubs in the same league on a quarter of our budget... 

don't talk about us going into debt to be better, we just want a decent set up and  better manager to make us better. 

 

Can you name these clubs with a quarter of our (PLAYING) budget and give us the figures.

That should help people to understand better.

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Can you name these clubs with a quarter of our (PLAYING) budget and give us the figures.

That should help people to understand better.

 

Tommy Wright has had St Johnstone punching above their weight for years

Steve Clarke has done wonders at Kilmarnock

The boy at Livi had them firing for a while and managed to do us 5-0

They all have budgets around the quarter of ours. 

It's easy enough to find the figures. 

 

[redjambo]

5 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Can you name these clubs with a quarter of our (PLAYING) budget and give us the figures.

That should help people to understand better.

 

I don't think he'll be able to name them.

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15686552.survey-reveals-stark-financial-gap-between-celtics-wage-budget-and-the-rest-of-scottish-premiership/

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

Tommy Wright has had St Johnstone punching above their weight for years

Steve Clarke has done wonders at Kilmarnock

The boy at Livi had them firing for a while and managed to do us 5-0

They all have budgets around the quarter of ours. 

It's easy enough to find the figures. 

 

 

Good. Do it then.

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Good. Do it then.

 

I take it you're a happy clapper and a levein to stay man?

That link you posted was from 2017 and you can still get my point from that. 

No point even arguing with you. 

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

I take it you're a happy clapper and a levein to stay man?

That link you posted was from 2017 and you can still get my point from that. 

No point even arguing with you. 

 

No, I'm not. I'm just a guy who doesn't like folk who bandy about statistics that are shite.

 

If you'd said "a half our playing budget", you would have been fairly accurate. But "a quarter"?

 

Come on. You said it was easy enough to find the figures. Do it, or are you just making things up as you go along to try and justify your argument?

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by redjambo

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

Just now, redjambo said:

 

No, I'm a not. I'm just a guy who doesn't like folk who bandy about statistics that are shite.

 

If you'd said "a half our playing budget", you would have been fairly accurate. But "a quarter"?

 

Come on. You said it was easy enough to find the figures. Do it, or are you just making things up as you go along to try and justify your argument?

 

 

 

So you're arguing with me over exact figures instead of the actual point i was making?

Are you an accountant or a Hearts fan?

 

[redjambo]

Just now, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

So you're arguing with me over exact figures instead of the actual point i was making?

Are you an accountant or a Hearts fan?

 

 

I'm still waiting for those figures that show that other SPFL teams operate on a quarter of our playing budget.

 

I don't know, making up "facts" to suit your arguments, saying it is easy to find stats to back up those "facts", and then trying to turn the argument when you are called out on it. Pathetic.

[Austin MacGlee]

55 minutes ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

I'd like to add my favourite spell at Hearts in recent years. 

 

RUDI SKACEL. 

 

Who was the guy that didn't give him a new contract...

 

Aye, he was at the end of his career

It's alright to sign the likes of Hughes and Mclean though eh?

It's fine to offer coaching roles to every other tom dick and harry!

 

If anyone deserved another years contract and a coaching role, it was Skacel!

 

 

Hard to disagree.

[JamboAl]

1 minute ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

So you're arguing with me over exact figures instead of the actual point i was making?

Are you an accountant or a Hearts fan?

 

I take it that you were blethering a load of unsubstantiated old cobblers hence your reticence to answer the question directly.

If you are trying to make a point I would assume you would have the information to hand.

Maybe not.

[redjambo]

19 minutes ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

It's easy enough to find the figures. 

 

 

Still waiting...

 

[redjambo]

Just now, JamboAl said:

I take it that you were blethering a load of unsubstantiated old cobblers hence your reticence to answer the question directly.

If you are trying to make a point I would assume you would have the information to hand.

Maybe not.

 

I know how much trust I'll be putting in anything that Bob quotes in his posts from now on, that's for sure. 

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

Just now, JamboAl said:

I take it that you were blethering a load of unsubstantiated old cobblers hence your reticence to answer the question directly.

If you are trying to make a point I would assume you would have the information to hand.

Maybe not.

 

I don't have the figures to hand, 

It was in the evening news a few months back. 

My point still stands,

Managers on substantially less of a budget (I'll put it that way) are doing a better job than Craig Levein is. 

 

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

Managers on substantially less of a budget (I'll put it that way) are doing a better job than Craig Levein is. 

 

 

 

I agree. :)

[BOBTHEBRUCE]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

I agree.

 

So why the hell are you arguing?

 

[JamboAl]

.

1 minute ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

 

I don't have the figures to hand, 

It was in the evening news a few months back. 

My point still stands,

Managers on substantially less of a budget (I'll put it that way) are doing a better job than Craig Levein is. 

 

Can you provide a link that shows these clubs and figures?

And remember, the relevant figures are for PLAYING budgets, not turnover.

[Forever Hearts]

6 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm still waiting for those figures that show that other SPFL teams operate on a quarter of our playing budget.

 

I don't know, making up "facts" to suit your arguments, saying it is easy to find stats to back up those "facts", and then trying to turn the argument when you are called out on it. Pathetic.

Livi's average wage is £670 per week, Hearts is £2,100. Close enough to a quarter? 

[jake]

There has to be a clear out of the "coaching staff" .

The club now has a losing mentality.

[7628mm]

59 minutes ago, BOBTHEBRUCE said:

I'd like to add my favourite spell at Hearts in recent years. 

 

RUDI SKACEL. 

 

Who was the guy that didn't give him a new contract...

 

Aye, he was at the end of his career

It's alright to sign the likes of Hughes and Mclean though eh?

It's fine to offer coaching roles to every other tom dick and harry!

 

If anyone deserved another years contract and a coaching role, it was Skacel!

 

 

It is a terrible thing when an EGO gets in the way of making good decisions for the benefit of the club.

We all knew that Vlad wanted to be the big cheese all the time and made decisions that reflected that to the detriment of the club.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely (or something like that)

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, Forever Hearts said:

Livi's average wage is £670 per week, Hearts is £2,100. Close enough to a quarter? 

 

Great. Source please.

 

And do remember that Bob also listed Killie and St Johnstone as those clubs with a quarter of our playing budget.