U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[Cade]

8 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Would we not all be better getting on with the Russians?

And the North Koreans?

Is he not right in this?

Are we not more likely to gain peace and well being for the citizens of those nations by increasing trade and travel

vs cutting off their incomes/medication etc

 

Peace is always a good thing.

 

Ignoring chemical weapons attacks, cyber warfare, meddling in western elections, various human rights abuses and other breaches of international law is just plain daft.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Would we not all be better getting on with the Russians?

And the North Koreans?

Is he not right in this?

Are we not more likely to gain peace and well being for the citizens of those nations by increasing trade and travel

vs cutting off their incomes/medication etc

 

 

Of course it is, I don't think there are many people saying it's not a good idea, however countries such as Russia, North Korea & China and the likes only respect strengh.

Donald Trump is imo showing weakness by not taking Russia to task about all the shenagings they have been up to over the last few years, and China for it's human rights abuses amongst other things.

[doctor jambo]

5 minutes ago, Cade said:

Peace is always a good thing.

 

Ignoring chemical weapons attacks, cyber warfare, meddling in western elections, various human rights abuses and other breaches of international law is just plain daft.

The list of breaches -apart from chemical weapons attacks- are all things that the West indulge in  too.

 

Sure, the population of Syria don't want gassed, nor did the Iraqi Kurds

but nor did they want western manipulated rebellion, civil war and mass displacement

Nor do the Iranian people want sanctions to punish them

If you make a populace more affluent you may find that radicalism becomes rarer, and liberalism grows organically

I'd rather we were benevolent to all, then its easier to influence a friend than an enemy

[doctor jambo]

12 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Of course it is, I don't think there are many people saying it's not a good idea, however countries such as Russia, North Korea & China and the likes only respect strengh.

Donald Trump is imo showing weakness by not taking Russia to task about all the shenagings they have been up to over the last few years, and China for it's human rights abuses amongst other things.

China have become more democratic the MORE we traded with them

if you have a large affluent class, then the internal pressure they can apply on the government is massive- and then they BECOME the government

Why does the UK fear China?

 Or Russia?

Their people mean us no harm and governments come and go in time regardless of what we do

[Bindy Badgy]

15 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Why does the UK fear China?

 Or Russia?

 

 

Stevie Wonder could see why we fear Russia.

 

They influenced the US election, it looks like they did the same to the Brexit referendum and people in the know seem to think that they were behind the Novichok attack.

[doctor jambo]

17 minutes ago, Barack said:

China's Government will be going nowhere anytime in the lifetime of President Xi. In fact, the Communist party will have a succession now, due to Xi's lifetime gig. No votes for the common folk of China. 

 

Russia will have Putin in charge in some manner be it President or Prime Minister, until his death, also.

 

Can't see many of the affluent classes putting pressure on either, as they all are subservient to both. Added to the fact their wealth is inexorably linked to both leaders & their Government's whims.

 

 

Surgery a bit quiet today is it? Thought you'd be snowed under.

 

 

Not working today.

 

And by affluent class I was not meaning oligarchs.

I'm talking of a large affluent middle/working class- not gazilionaires

you know - who want things like good health care and education and some of the trappings enjoyed by the "influencers"

 

And yes, Xi and Putin will be around regardless of what we want or do- so should we punish billions of people or try and assist them until said fatalities?

 

 

[doctor jambo]

21 minutes ago, Stokesy said:

 

 

Stevie Wonder could see why we fear Russia.

 

They influenced the US election, it looks like they did the same to the Brexit referendum and people in the know seem to think that they were behind the Novichok attack.

So?

We meddle in all kinds of elections and conflicts

Our own parties rigged Brexit and broke funding rules and were thoroughly dishonest and manipulative.

I'd have thought that being a spy defector from any state would run the risk of death

We're drone striking our own traitors in Iraq after all without trial,

and the odd MI5 agent does turn up zipped into a holdall dead from time to time

- and that's before our participation in the torture and rendition of our own citizen traitors is taken into account

 

[JackLadd]

"No evidence there wasn't collusion between Trump and Russia" - Carl Bernstein.  

Edited July 19, 2018 by JackLadd

[Rocco_Jambo]

5 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

I never said that Armageddon is nigh.

I didn't even imply it.

You made that up.

 

What exactly is it that people are now “shitting themselves” about then?

 

Unless you or them are extreme drama queens you are certainly implying some kind of impending conflict with the west.

[Sharpie]

Peace is always a very commendable motivation, but can cause manipulation. Remember history, remember the proud old gentleman with the document announcing, Peace in Our Time, he was quite correct there was after six years of world wide carnage, which only finished after the use of atomic weapons. We have three nations at the moment who are negotiating peace, Russia, North Korea and the United States. The first is led by a former KGB man who rules with an iron fist, he is accused of murdering his own people who disagree with him, and wants more power and to restore his country to a former time of power and world threat. You have Kim, got power by birth, just like our much criticised Royal Family. He is a despot, a wicked man, and sat and made agreements with a completely unfit for his position individual.  To this time Kim has done absolutely none of the things he had agreed to, and may in fact be proliferating rather than reducing. Oh boy then we have the third leader, thats an oxymoron right there, the only things he has in common with the other two is he surrounded himself with characters of questionable character, just like the other two, except he just fires them, the other two dispose of them, like the other two he is a consumate liar, but even worse they are suggesting now that he even believes some of the things he says. He talks about his successes, in fairness he has had meetings/summits, but also true they so far have achieved nothing. He is making concesions, they are not, both have eyes on expanding their borders,  at some time one will do so and be met with hostile resisitance, this will trigger a bigger confrontation and possibly nuclear war, but Russia and North Korea both have powerful armies so this is less likely than probable, they only need the threat. Trump has suggested that he may not offer assistance or participate with organisations such as NATO, once their plans are achieved and things settle down the possibility is that they set their eyes now on the North American continent, Canada would I am sure fight, but it is a vast country to defend, so if it is lost next could be the United States and if Trump or someone like him is in charge a give all compromise would be drafted.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Barack said:

In China for example, those people, whom you speak of, don't have the sphere of influence historically. If there's a whiff of unhapiness, that gets into the proverbial government nostrils of The Communist Party, then those people's lives are made very difficult. Property can be taken away for example, by a corrupt local official. 

 

The middle-class of China is growing, of that there's no doubt. But as I say, as fantastic as it'd be to see China as a Democracy, in our lifetimes...no we'll never see that.

 

The middle-class, will, in all probability thank their relative good luck and fortune, in relation to the poorest in the country, and find themselves a somewhat dissenting, but ultimately happy lot, with the status-quo of their lives intact. Like a Lib Dem voter, if you will.

 

As a whole though, including Russia, no-one would rationally argue that the populations of the two mentioned, plus North Korea aren't entitled to betterment. No-one on here; would, I suspect, take issue with Trump if he achieved bilateral nuclear disarmament. Even if the negotiations would involve many senior politicians & state officials. He is the face, and signs the agreement. He'd get the acknowledgement of it. As he rightly should.

 

Peace and Democracy is what we all want to see. The manner in which Trump conducts himself in the Presidency however, is open to the most serious of scrutiny and he should be held accountable for his actions. Given that his country's dealings around the world, affects every other country's way of life in some facet.

 

Trade tariff wars, subservience to foreign powers, insults to countries with nuclear strike capabilities and insults to leaders of NATO, are not imo, the correct way to achieve the things we'd like a US President to achieve, never mind Trump.

 

 After two years almost, the time of pretending the Presidency is a business, & trying to bluff it out in meetings, press conferences & of course Twitter should be at an end. There's more at stake than his ego. Thankfully, after some internal moving within the White House, some of his advisors see this and try to alleviate potential issues that may arise. You try to outmanoeuvre Putin, without strong advice...the result is there to see.

 

 

 

That has to stop. 

If the Chinese look at the USA or UK or many other democracies why should their ultimate aspiration necessarily be to be a "Democracy". China like many parts of the world has never been a democracy and in many parts of the world grafting on  the Western ideal of democracy has been a disaster for the people of those countries.

[Governor Tarkin]

4 hours ago, Rocco_Jambo said:

 

What exactly is it that people are now “shitting themselves” about then?

 

Unless you or them are extreme drama queens you are certainly implying some kind of impending conflict with the west.

 

Maybe my Ukranian mate who used to live in the Ukraine but now lives in Russia without having moved house is just a drama queen.

 

Maybe all the folk that died on that Malaysian airliner that Putin's goons shot down were just being drama queens.

 

Like I said, maybe my Eastern European colleagues are just a bit worried about Putin getting a free hand to do WTF he likes due to having old Trumpy on a short leish. Or maybe they're just being drama queens.

 

No mention of Armageddon there, but you're free to infer whatever you like.

[trotter]

On 7/18/2018 at 15:39, jake said:

Alfa.

If a first strike nuclear attack is aimed at the US.

There will be nothing left.

There can be no winner even in a limited nuclear war.

 

Indeed. To quote Einstein back in the late 40s I believe:

 

"I know not what with weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones"

 

 

[JackLadd]

I see Trump's desire to hand over Obama appointees to Putin for interrogation is being booted out via Senate. Even the Reps know this is insanity.

[Sidelight]

 

[Rocco_Jambo]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Maybe my Ukranian mate who used to live in the Ukraine but now lives in Russia without having moved house is just a drama queen.

 

Maybe all the folk that died on that Malaysian airliner that Putin's goons shot down were just being drama queens.

 

Like I said, maybe my Eastern European colleagues are just a bit worried about Putin getting a free hand to do WTF he likes due to having old Trumpy on a short leish. Or maybe they're just being drama queens.

 

No mention of Armageddon there, but you're free to infer whatever you like.

 

So he’s interfered with Ukraine’s sovereignity and his goons shot down a Malaysian Airliner prior to Trump being in Office but it’s only now after Trump has had a positive meeting with him that he’s now being given a “free hand” and people are now shitting themselves as a result.

 

Okay makes sense.

[Sidelight]

19 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Armageddon outta here! 

It’d be a long way to Tipperary, even for Russian tanks.

[Sharpie]

43 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

 

 

When I was at Boroughmuir School a few of the kids lived with their parents  Gogarburn Mental Hospital where their father was employed, we went out there to play football against staff and some of the patients.  The other patients some of whom were sadly very far gone mentally used to watch the games. I watched this character  being intervieed by one of the other Fox news experts, they as usual had lots of advice to offer. I would actually have preferred to get advice from some of the Gogarburn  patients on how to walk through a minefield.

[The Real Maroonblood]

53 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

I see Trump's desire to hand over Obama appointees to Putin for interrogation is being booted out via Senate. Even the Reps know this is insanity.

What a fruit loop.

[Governor Tarkin]

43 minutes ago, Rocco_Jambo said:

 

So he’s interfered with Ukraine’s sovereignity and his goons shot down a Malaysian Airliner prior to Trump being in Office but it’s only now after Trump has had a positive meeting with him that he’s now being given a “free hand” and people are now shitting themselves as a result.

 

Okay makes sense.

 

Maybe many were hoping someone would stand up to Putin and not gargle his balls like a good little puppet.

 

But you know that.

 

 

[Cade]

“Montenegro is a tiny country with very strong people ... They’re very aggressive people. They may get aggressive, and congratulations, you’re in world war three.”

 

Montenegro is a member of NATO and has armed forces that number 2,000 regulars and 400 reservists.

Trump thinks they'll start WW3.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Cade

[Rocco_Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Maybe many were hoping someone would stand up to Putin and not gargle his balls like a good little puppet.

 

But you know that.

 

 

 

Standing up to him by calling them big bad Russia, alienating them from the international community, expelling diplomats and imposing sanctions?

 

That certainly kept Putin in check before.

 

Great idea to see if it works again.

[Sidelight]

1 hour ago, bobsharp said:

 

When I was at Boroughmuir School a few of the kids lived with their parents  Gogarburn Mental Hospital where their father was employed, we went out there to play football against staff and some of the patients.  The other patients some of whom were sadly very far gone mentally used to watch the games. I watched this character  being intervieed by one of the other Fox news experts, they as usual had lots of advice to offer. I would actually have preferred to get advice from some of the Gogarburn  patients on how to walk through a minefield.

 

[Governor Tarkin]

47 minutes ago, Rocco_Jambo said:

 

Standing up to him by calling them big bad Russia, alienating them from the international community, expelling diplomats and imposing sanctions?

 

That certainly kept Putin in check before.

 

Great idea to see if it works again.

 

Well it didn't work, did it, but that's not the point.

Time will tell if sucking his balls does any better.

In the meantime I'll let them know that you said they have nothing to worry about and Trumpy has it all in hand.

[Sharpie]

38 minutes ago, alfajambo said:

 

 

Yes I remember that day very well, as do I remember the deaths in Palestine, followed by again the deaths in Korea, and although now a limp dicked old would be hardman James Bond wannabe remember well standing guard with loaded weapons in a country that did not want us there and which manifested itself in violence and murder.  There are lots of things I can be told about but world war is not one I lived through one, and deaths in combat such as Korea are no news to me, and the lost in my own active service zone are well remembered. What is also fresh in my old mind is that from almost the end of WW2 Russia has been a thorn in the flesh of the west.  There have been many incidents, and I also remember well the threat of nuclear war as a result of Russia sending missiles to Cuba. I have watched and listened to Presidents and other politicians project their policies some good, some bad, but without a doubt I have never heard anyone like this man who lies, contradicts himself, demeans his own appointees, and depends on Fox news as a form of propaganda station.

I can handle the criticism, some of which is well deserved, but don't try to tell me about war ,I've lived through it, seen it and can assure you the last thing I would want to see is another one no matter the size or the enemy.

Edited July 19, 2018 by bobsharp

[Sidelight]

14 minutes ago, bobsharp said:

 

Yes I remember that day very well, as do I remember the deaths in Palestine, followed by again the deaths in Korea, and although now a limp dicked old would be hardman James Bond wannabe remember well standing guard with loaded weapons in a country that did not want us there and which manifested itself in violence and murder.  There are lots of things I can be told about but world war is not one I lived through one, and deaths in combat such as Korea are no news to me, and the lost in my own active service zone are well remembered. What is also fresh in my old mind is that from almost the end of WW2 Russia has been a thorn in the flesh of the west.  There have been many incidents, and I also remember well the threat of nuclear war as a result of Russia sending missiles to Cuba. I have watched and listened to Presidents and other politicians project their policies some good, some bad, but without a doubt I have never heard anyone like this man who lies, contradicts himself, demeans his own appointees, and depends on Fox news as a form of propaganda station.

I can handle the criticism, some of which is well deserved, but don't try to tell me about war ,I've lived through it, seen it and can assure you the last thing I would want to see is another one no matter the size or the enemy.

I know, not me, not me bob.

Edited July 19, 2018 by alfajambo

[Ulysses]

[jake]

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Maybe my Ukranian mate who used to live in the Ukraine but now lives in Russia without having moved house is just a drama queen.

 

Maybe all the folk that died on that Malaysian airliner that Putin's goons shot down were just being drama queens.

 

Like I said, maybe my Eastern European colleagues are just a bit worried about Putin getting a free hand to do WTF he likes due to having old Trumpy on a short leish. Or maybe they're just being drama queens.

 

No mention of Armageddon there, but you're free to infer whatever you like.

I've no Iraqi mates or Lybian mates.

I've no south American mates who were trade unionists.

I've no central African mates who live in Diamond rich countries.

I've no Afghanistan mates .

Vietnam mates Korean mates .

 

But I'd guess if I was not a brexit voting schemie and had the international mates you have they'd have plenty to say about world military powers and the tactics they employ.

 

[jake]

Has anyone noticed the desire to drop the dollar as currency for petrol results in a certain narrative.

Or are we only to believe conspiracy that suits ?

 

We on this thread are to believe that a nationality is bad because of their nationality .

Because the crimes they are accused of are no different to ours.

 

Let's hear it?

[jake]

Imagine if Russians were black ?

[jake]

I suppose I'm being unreasonable.

I mean Russian wealth surpasses every other nation on earth.

Russian hegemony controls the media.

Russian military spending deary me it's not even equivalent to France and the UK .

Never mind the colossal amount the US spends.

Did we mention the state funded US "independent political groups " that operate through our the world.

 

I have to laugh at the tin foil hat wearers on here who espouse every single conspiracy theory that suits western media's narrative.

 

 

Wobble wibble

[Sharpie]

Trump has made some approaches to Putin to have another meeting in the fall at the White House. Coates the Inteeligence chief was being interviewed oin TV and was told about this, something else that he had never been consulted about.  He had just explained that he had accepted the clarification about the otherr meeting statements by Trump, how he will feel about this has still to be seen. Wray the  F.B.I boss has also made comments, a couple of resignations would be no major surprise. 

[Sidelight]

6 hours ago, jake said:

I've no Iraqi mates or Lybian mates.

I've no south American mates who were trade unionists.

I've no central African mates who live in Diamond rich countries.

I've no Afghanistan mates .

Vietnam mates Korean mates .

 

But I'd guess if I was not a brexit voting schemie and had the international mates you have they'd have plenty to say about world military powers and the tactics they employ.

 

With friends and colleagues across the continents I can assure you that they surely don’t subscribe to every word that emanates from the mouth of the BBC Today programme.

I am also pleased to report that I voted against the dilution of nation state and the non-transparent, unelected, dictatorship lead EU resultant.

Against the wishes of the political establishment, here and in Brussels, Britain voted to leave the EU. However the gates of hell have been thrown at that decision. Who knows what may happen next.

With further future integration, how can any nation who wish to loosen the EU tentacle strangulation make that a reality and break free?

And to Russia, yes they may have the second largest nuclear strike capability, but with an economy the size of Italy’s, it makes no sense for them to perpetuate a contemporary cold war.

Edited July 20, 2018 by alfajambo

[Sidelight]

7 hours ago, jake said:

But I'd guess if I was not a brexit voting schemie and had the international mates you have they'd have plenty to say about world military powers and the tactics they employ.

 

A person’s self-worth and value should not be decided in terms of wealth and worldly status. Nor ones intelligence weighed by academic qualifications.

Jake, whatever way it falls, you are one of the most insightful and honest reads on here.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

7 hours ago, bobsharp said:

Trump has made some approaches to Putin to have another meeting in the fall at the White House. Coates the Inteeligence chief was being interviewed oin TV and was told about this, something else that he had never been consulted about.  He had just explained that he had accepted the clarification about the otherr meeting statements by Trump, how he will feel about this has still to be seen. Wray the  F.B.I boss has also made comments, a couple of resignations would be no major surprise. 

Was that the guy that burst out laughing and said something like that will go well? 

[Governor Tarkin]

8 hours ago, jake said:

I've no Iraqi mates or Lybian mates.

I've no south American mates who were trade unionists.

I've no central African mates who live in Diamond rich countries.

I've no Afghanistan mates .

Vietnam mates Korean mates .

 

But I'd guess if I was not a brexit voting schemie and had the international mates you have they'd have plenty to say about world military powers and the tactics they employ.

 

 

I get what your saying, Jake, and broadly agree, but fail to see what point you're trying to make apart from deploying a hearty dose of whattaboutery.

 

Can we not just call a spade a spade?

 

Trump is a fud, man.

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, alfajambo said:

A person’s self-worth and value should not be decided in terms of wealth and worldly status. Nor ones intelligence weighed by academic qualifications.

Jake, whatever way it falls, you are one of the most insightful and honest reads on here.

 

Agreed.

[Rocco_Jambo]

15 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Well it didn't work, did it, but that's not the point.

Time will tell if sucking his balls does any better.

In the meantime I'll let them know that you said they have nothing to worry about and Trumpy has it all in hand.

 

I never said that did I.

 

Just to clarify though is this now your Russian mates or you Eastern Earppean mates you are talking about? 

[Governor Tarkin]

34 minutes ago, Rocco_Jambo said:

 

I never said that did I.

 

Just to clarify though is this now your Russian mates or you Eastern Earppean mates you are talking about? 

 

 

I guess you didn't, but if it's not what you're getting at then you're not making yourself particularly clear.

 

It doesn't really matter who I'm talking about to be honest. Anyone with an ounce of political nous would be well within their rights to be concerned about recent developments. You can take from that what you will.

[doctor jambo]

3 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

I get what your saying, Jake, and broadly agree, but fail to see what point you're trying to make apart from deploying a hearty dose of whattaboutery.

 

Can we not just call a spade a spade?

 

Trump is a fud, man.

He may be a fud.

BUT he may actually be the best hope we have had in thawing the diplomatic hostilities we have with Russia and North Korea.

 

For all his suave cool, Obama  presided over a marked worsening of the global situation-

for all the supposed intelligence of the man and his government and all the plaudits he abjectly failed to improve this, nor did he improve things in Palestine or the middle east

 

I'd much rather we actually spoke to these guys- they are not going anywhere in the near future, so if we are going to help Koreans and Russians deal with their horrific problems we need to do this

You don't solve the problems of a nation by gutting their economy and trapping them in poverty- it would surely make them more radical and likely to support a hardline leader.

WW2 was started due to a bitter, poverty stricken populace turning to a leader who would stick up for them

 

[Governor Tarkin]

Just now, doctor jambo said:

He may be a fud.

BUT he may actually be the best hope we have had in thawing the diplomatic hostilities we have with Russia and North Korea.

 

 

I'm not going to quote your entire post, Doc, as it was a long one, but I hear what you're saying and can see the logic behind the thought process.

 

I guess my concern is that perhaps Obama and his predesessors didn't make much headway with Putin and the NK chap because they're a couple of murderous, sleekit, authoritarian, kents - with no real interest in any solution on terms that aren't exclusively theirs. 

 

Trump may well be getting suckered up and playing right into their hands.

 

It's a genuine concern.

 

[Sharpie]

4 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Was that the guy that burst out laughing and said something like that will go well? 

 

Yes he registered complete surprise when he first heard it, then he made a face that was open to opinion, he then laughed and I forget the exact comment I think it was something like " that should wprk out well"

I watched as I do Fox News later, Carlsonwas apopletic as usual, and asked what was Coates doing in Aspen being intervieweed on television, as if he should be chained to his, Coates, desk in Washington.  He was actually at a conference for Intelligence personnel.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Just now, bobsharp said:

 

Yes he registered complete surprise when he first heard it, then he made a face that was open to opinion, he then laughed and I forget the exact comment I think it was something like " that should wprk out well"

I watched as I do Fox News later, Carlsonwas apopletic as usual, and asked what was Coates doing in Aspen being intervieweed on television, as if he should be chained to his, Coates, desk in Washington.  He was actually at a conference for Intelligence personnel.

They showed it on BBC this morning. The head of Intel was in hysterics. 

[doctor jambo]

10 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

I'm not going to quote your entire post, Doc, as it was a long one, but I hear what you're saying and can see the logic behind the thought process.

 

I guess my concern is that perhaps Obama and his predesessors didn't make much headway with Putin and the NK chap because they're a couple of murderous, sleekit, authoritarian, kents - with no real interest in any solution on terms that aren't exclusively theirs. 

 

Trump may well be getting suckered up and playing right into their hands.

 

It's a genuine concern.

 

True,

But doing nothing caused a worsening

And if a country is to be run by a totalitarian dictator then its better we spoke to them.

That is better than when we remove such people and end with a power vacuum.

At least Putin keeps his boot on the throat of the Caucasus and Islamism in a way other leaders cannot.

Benign dictatorship is a not unreasonable system for some countries

 

[Sharpie]

Putin is a sixty five year old man. Born and raised in the heyday of the Soviet Union. As they were reported to do they watched young people during their formative years, and those seen suitable were selected for positions in the Soviet machination. Putin was one.  He became a highly succesful candidate and learned and was good at all the KGB tactics and actions, murder, torture,manipulation of subjects, was good at it and was succesful, as indicated by his present position and suggested tactics how to keep it.

 

Trump on the other hand was born into a fairly succesful business oriented family. His father  was a hard man to live with and I suspect often told the young Trump he was a failure, would never be any good, and to hell with you you are going to military school which at one time was seen as the way to soldier up rich kids who were not what the father wanted.

I now suspect that Putin may not have what we suspect on Trump, my guess being financial, but is it possible that Putins pople as they do saw this businessman who was somewhat loose in his business dealings, liked to be praised and flattered and could be manipulated in this manner, he was and enjoyed it so much that when he declared for the Presidency Putin jumped in and done what he could to assist this to happen. Trump has since been informed of this and in fact the only thing they have on him is that his election was not legitimate.  Makes some sense because of all the things that bother him, racism, abuse of women, adultery, the only one he harps on about is the Mueller investigation, collusion, and the possibility that he could lose it all, and then this would cause the final indignity, his fathers belief you are useless and will never succeed.

 

Hey take it easy I tried.

 

 

[Sharpie]

19 hours ago, JackLadd said:

I see Trump's desire to hand over Obama appointees to Putin for interrogation is being booted out via Senate. Even the Reps know this is insanity.

 

I heard it mentioned by the Ambassador in question that it is also against International law.

[Sharpie]

47 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

He may be a fud.

BUT he may actually be the best hope we have had in thawing the diplomatic hostilities we have with Russia and North Korea.

 

For all his suave cool, Obama  presided over a marked worsening of the global situation-

for all the supposed intelligence of the man and his government and all the plaudits he abjectly failed to improve this, nor did he improve things in Palestine or the middle east

 

I'd much rather we actually spoke to these guys- they are not going anywhere in the near future, so if we are going to help Koreans and Russians deal with their horrific problems we need to do this

You don't solve the problems of a nation by gutting their economy and trapping them in poverty- it would surely make them more radical and likely to support a hardline leader.

WW2 was started due to a bitter, poverty stricken populace turning to a leader who would stick up for them

 

 

There is no doubt that the concept of negotiation is vastly preferable to hostility. Unfortunately in history it has been shown that some dictators regardless of discussions will go ahead and do their own thing anyway.

You use WW2 as an example, and it would be totally wrong to suggest that Hitler did not do good things for Germany. However things like the autobahn created employment, but the main motivation was t0 enhance transportation of troops and supplies in case of war, also industry flourished, but a lot of it was the creation of military weapons and equipment again for an upcoming war, and were completely against the Versaille Treaty which Germany had signed after an unconditional 1918 surrender. His creation of the SS, and the subsequent pre war actions against Jews who were labelled as the complete cause of all German problems of the time, indicated a motivation other than economic recovery.

 

Even Britain suffered post war problems, including a depression, but did not see war as a solution.

 

World domination was what Hitler wanted, and he was prepared to use carnage and death as a solution, I am not sure Putin is any less ambitious towards total world domination, but does have some strategies to acheve it by annexation defiance of international rules, interference in others elections and if need be war. It is unfortunate for us all though that the man who is nominated to oppose this is one who has indicated a complete willingness to fall to his knees and comply with anything the master orders.

[doctor jambo]

15 minutes ago, bobsharp said:

 

World domination was what Hitler wanted, and he was prepared to use carnage and death as a solution, I am not sure Putin is any less ambitious towards total world domination, but does have some strategies to acheve it by annexation defiance of international rules, interference in others elections and if need be war. It is unfortunate for us all though that the man who is nominated to oppose this is one who has indicated a complete willingness to fall to his knees and comply with anything the master orders.

I'm not so sure Trump bends the knee to anybody. Ever.

 

[I P Knightley]

51 minutes ago, bobsharp said:

Putin is a sixty five year old man. Born and raised in the heyday of the Soviet Union. As they were reported to do they watched young people during their formative years, and those seen suitable were selected for positions in the Soviet machination. Putin was one.  He became a highly succesful candidate and learned and was good at all the KGB tactics and actions, murder, torture,manipulation of subjects, was good at it and was succesful, as indicated by his present position and suggested tactics how to keep it.

 

Trump on the other hand was born into a fairly succesful business oriented family. His father  was a hard man to live with and I suspect often told the young Trump he was a failure, would never be any good, and to hell with you you are going to military school which at one time was seen as the way to soldier up rich kids who were not what the father wanted.

I now suspect that Putin may not have what we suspect on Trump, my guess being financial, but is it possible that Putins pople as they do saw this businessman who was somewhat loose in his business dealings, liked to be praised and flattered and could be manipulated in this manner, he was and enjoyed it so much that when he declared for the Presidency Putin jumped in and done what he could to assist this to happen. Trump has since been informed of this and in fact the only thing they have on him is that his election was not legitimate.  Makes some sense because of all the things that bother him, racism, abuse of women, adultery, the only one he harps on about is the Mueller investigation, collusion, and the possibility that he could lose it all, and then this would cause the final indignity, his fathers belief you are useless and will never succeed.

 

Hey take it easy I tried.

 

 

I like that thinking, Bob. Very reasonable and highly possible.

 

Plus, of course, the Pee-pee tapes.

[Governor Tarkin]

57 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

True,

But doing nothing caused a worsening

And if a country is to be run by a totalitarian dictator then its better we spoke to them.

That is better than when we remove such people and end with a power vacuum.

At least Putin keeps his boot on the throat of the Caucasus and Islamism in a way other leaders cannot.

Benign dictatorship is a not unreasonable system for some countries

 

 

I'm not entirely sure we can call Putin's dictatorship 'benign'. 

 

Your point about power vacuums and the Caucases is spot on, however morally and idealistically repugnant.

 

It's all fun and games until it's your throat he needs to keep his boot on.