U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[Maple Leaf]

This just in:

 

Trump has asked Japan about Pearl Harbor.  Japan says they didn't do it.

 

Trump said "OK, I can't think why you would."

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Geoff the Mince said:

Who cares about Clinton?  He won and he's making a fool of himself and his country. 

 

Exactly.

It seems to be only Trump & his apologists who are obsessed with Clinton, she's yesterday's news, but the more that they go on about her only shows their desperation to try and deflect attention away from the abomination that is Donald Trump.

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

32 minutes ago, Rocco_Jambo said:

 

 

Trumps not going anywhere, anytime soon.

 

Time will tell about that.

[jake]

4 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Nobody mentioned Clinton, and no Clinton is the subject of this thread. Please don't derail it.

 

As for your other post about thawing, if you think an autocratic Russia being coddled after cyberattacking a US election, annexing Crimea, and a host of other stuff, is good, then you're f****** insane.

Putin mentioned her.

 

If you think the US with its extrajudicial murder it's illegal wars it's hegemony it's interference in elections it's tapping of allied leaders is any better than Putin's Russia then I disagree with you.

Won't call you insane just because you have a different view.

 

But you feel free to debunk any of the above.

[jake]

11 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Exactly.

It seems to be only Trump & his apologists who are obsessed with Clinton, she's yesterday's news, but the more that they go on about her only shows their desperation to try and deflect attention away from the abomination that is Donald Trump.

 

No.

It's relevant.

Putin was asked if Russia would send over the 12 Russians who are accused of meddling in the election.

He said he would if the US returned the accused who took half a billion out of Russia and deposited much of it to the Clinton foundation.

Now I'm all for exposing Trump but if people are serious about the corruption and world peace then the lid needs lifted on the lot.

Not just what suits party politics.

Which is a joke anyway .

[Governor Tarkin]

3 minutes ago, jake said:

If you think the US with its extrajudicial murder it's illegal wars it's hegemony it's interference in elections it's tapping of allied leaders is any better than Putin's Russia then I disagree with you.

 

Oh you'll get no argument from most on that point Jake, but if you can cast your mind forward and try to picture to what Putin's Russia will become without the US to hold it in check then you'll get a clearer idea of why folk are shitting themselves.

 

I've got a lot of Russian mates and know loads of guys that grew up under the Soviet yoke. Believe me when I say that if they are worried about the way things are headed, then we should be worried about the way things are headed.

 

 

[jake]

Russian money found it's way to both presidential campaigns.

As did Saudi money and other foreign companies.

The American political system is for sale .

And that's the relevant thing we all have an interest in.

Because ultimately it shapes the world .

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

No.

It's relevant.

Putin was asked if Russia would send over the 12 Russians who are accused of meddling in the election.

He said he would if the US returned the accused who took half a billion out of Russia and deposited much of it to the Clinton foundation.

Now I'm all for exposing Trump but if people are serious about the corruption and world peace then the lid needs lifted on the lot.

Not just what suits party politics.

Which is a joke anyway .

 

I don't think he was asked that, I can't recall Trump asking Putin to extradite them.

[jake]

1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Oh you'll get no argument from most on that point Jake, but if you can cast your mind forward and try to picture to what Putin's Russia will become without the US to hold it in check then you'll get a clearer idea of why folk are shitting themselves.

 

I've got a lot of Russian mates and know loads of guys that grew up under the Soviet yoke. Believe me when I say that if they are worried about the way things are headed, then we should be worried about the way things are headed.

 

 

Russian politics is not what I'm putting forward.

But Russia's military spending is nothing compared to the West .

Let's not forget that NATO has in fact advanced towards Russian borders.

 

Are we to continue upgrading our weapons in a never ending cold war.

 

 

[jake]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I don't think he was asked that, I can't recall Trump asking Putin to extradite them.

It was asked by the press.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 minutes ago, jake said:

It was asked by the press.

 

So not by Trump and therefore not by the American Government.

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

Russian politics is not what I'm putting forward.

But Russia's military spending is nothing compared to the West .

Let's not forget that NATO has in fact advanced towards Russian borders.

 

Are we to continue upgrading our weapons in a never ending cold war.

 

 

 

So what's your solution?

 

[Bindy Badgy]

is there any evidence to support that the Clinton's received money from these people or is it another case of throw mud at the Clinton's and see what sticks?

 

Politifact rates it as pants on fire:

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jul/16/vladimir-putin/putins-pants-fire-claim-about-400-million-donation/

 

Quote

 

Putin said associates of Bill Browder gave $400 million to the Clinton campaign. The associates appear to be the Ziff brothers. According to public data, Ziff Brothers Investments gave about $315,000 to Clinton and the Democratic National Committee.

 

Overall, the firm gave about $1.1 million to Democratic committees around the country.

 

The exaggeration is so great, we rate this claim Pants on Fire.

 

 

[Governor Tarkin]

27 minutes ago, jake said:

Russian politics is not what I'm putting forward.

But Russia's military spending is nothing compared to the West .

Let's not forget that NATO has in fact advanced towards Russian borders.

 

Are we to continue upgrading our weapons in a never ending cold war.

 

 

 

But Russian politics are US politics, Jake.

 

If Russia can't match the US in terms of military spending what do you think it's next course of action might be?

 

Interfering with US domestic politics maybe?

Puting a useful idiot in the Whitehouse maybe?

 

[Sharpie]

5 hours ago, jake said:

So is no one pleased that the two nuclear superpowers are thawing the recent bad relations?

 

I thought when Trump was elected the consensus was we would all be in for ww3?

 

 

 

So Jake what hes he done exactly to avoid WW3.  He has Trumpeted about what he achieved in N.Korea, so far it has amounted to zero.  They have sent two hundred coffins to N.Korea for the remains of American dead. The ones that are for them will take three years to identify, there are five thousand missing Americans. 

He has pissed off NATO, and the European Union, has threatened to withdraw from NATO, he insulted Mengele in the press, he insulted Trudeau in the press, he insulted May in the press, and then contradicted himself in public, particularly when he was face to face with them. Remember that NATO is an invade one country that is a member, you invade us all union.  If the USA back out Russia will try it on, could lead to WW3. 

 

As a wee aside, Russia has for along time had its eye on the Artic, and its resources,  if they did attempt to land in there and claim the territory Canada who claim sovereinty would have to react, as a part of NATO the members would have to support Canada if there was conflict, would a U.S. Trump be included.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

27 minutes ago, Stokesy said:

is there any evidence to support that the Clinton's received money from these people or is it another case of throw mud at the Clinton's and see what sticks?

 

Politifact rates it as pants on fire:

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jul/16/vladimir-putin/putins-pants-fire-claim-about-400-million-donation/

 

 

 

$400m is no small amount of money, and especially since it allegedly involves Clinton you'd think the Trump propaganda news network (aka Fox News) would be all over it.

Zilch, nothing, or as Trump would say nyet, no big splash, no big story on their online version about this claim from Putin, nothing, that kinda tells it's own story right there.

 

[Sharpie]

7 minutes ago, Barack said:

Ftfy.

 

Mengele would be worth insulting anytime...

 

Thanks I am doing those mistakes pretty regular now, I am actually starting to worry a wee bit.

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, bobsharp said:

 

Thanks I am doing those mistakes pretty regular now, I am actually starting to worry a wee bit.

You can get tablets for that condition but I can’t remember what they are called

[Geoff the Mince]

47 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

$400m is no small amount of money, and especially since it allegedly involves Clinton you'd think the Trump propaganda news network (aka Fox News) would be all over it.

Zilch, nothing, or as Trump would say nyet, no big splash, no big story on their online version about this claim from Putin, nothing, that kinda tells it's own story right there.

 

Putin has an axe to grind with Bill Browder (the $400m guy) it was his Solicitor Sergei Magninsky killed by Putins inner circle for exposing corruption. The Magninsky Act threatens the Oligarchs/Mafias overseas funds .Back to Trump its not Clinton , Obama ,CNN or Fake News thats the issue , its him thinking being President is the same as The Apprentice !! Fat fake orange balloon !! 

[Justin Z]

3 hours ago, jake said:

Putin mentioned her.

 

If you think the US with its extrajudicial murder it's illegal wars it's hegemony it's interference in elections it's tapping of allied leaders is any better than Putin's Russia then I disagree with you.

Won't call you insane just because you have a different view.

 

But you feel free to debunk any of the above.

 

For all its ills and past history of abuse of its hegemony, the US has never shown any inclination to pull any of that shit in places like the UK.

 

Russia? Novichok, anyone? That's just in the last year. As already mentioned up above, plenty of other history to go on, and unfortunately the fall of the wall hasn't been all it was cracked up to be in old Soviet Russia, since we're back to autocracy, but this time it's the actual KGB in power, not just the KGB working for the guys in power.

 

Jesus Christ, man.

[ri Alban]

33 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

For all its ills and past history of abuse of its hegemony, the US has never shown any inclination to pull any of that shit in places like the UK.

 

Russia? Novichok, anyone? That's just in the last year. As already mentioned up above, plenty of other history to go on, and unfortunately the fall of the wall hasn't been all it was cracked up to be in old Soviet Russia, since we're back to autocracy, but this time it's the actual KGB in power, not just the KGB working for the guys in power.

 

Jesus Christ, man.

Everything he says will eventually circle back to the EU. 

It's all a conspiracy! 

[jake]

3 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

But Russian politics are US politics, Jake.

 

If Russia can't match the US in terms of military spending what do you think it's next course of action might be?

 

Interfering with US domestic politics maybe?

Puting a useful idiot in the Whitehouse maybe?

 

I've no doubt Russia attempted to influence the democratic vote in the US.

 

12 trolls on social media versus multi million dollars in adverts.

A msm which is just about unanimous in anti Trump rhetoric.

 

[Francis Albert]

59 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

For all its ills and past history of abuse of its hegemony, the US has never shown any inclination to pull any of that shit in places like the UK.

 

Russia? Novichok, anyone? That's just in the last year. As already mentioned up above, plenty of other history to go on, and unfortunately the fall of the wall hasn't been all it was cracked up to be in old Soviet Russia, since we're back to autocracy, but this time it's the actual KGB in power, not just the KGB working for the guys in power.

 

Jesus Christ, man.

How do you define "places like the UK"? You mean places with democratically elected governments? Places with a fairly open society and freedom of the press and of speech and of political expression and association, with reasonably honest political and legal systems? The sort of places, because they dared to elect socialist or left leaning governments who were somewhat hostile to the worst excesses of American Corporations in their countries  were overthrown with the support or direct intervention of the US and replaced by repressive and murderous military dictatorships well funded and supplied by the USA. It was called defending "Freedom" as I recall.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Francis Albert

[jake]

3 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

So not by Trump and therefore not by the American Government.

 

Don't get your point really.

[jake]

59 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

For all its ills and past history of abuse of its hegemony, the US has never shown any inclination to pull any of that shit in places like the UK.

 

Russia? Novichok, anyone? That's just in the last year. As already mentioned up above, plenty of other history to go on, and unfortunately the fall of the wall hasn't been all it was cracked up to be in old Soviet Russia, since we're back to autocracy, but this time it's the actual KGB in power, not just the KGB working for the guys in power.

 

Jesus Christ, man.

Sorry.

Did you miss the American intelligence under Obama bugging Merkel?

Do you honestly believe that UK foreign policy has not been shaped by US foreign policy?

 

Bit naive Justin.

 

Nobody is holding Russia up as a standard but to ignore the brutality of US CIA sponsored regime changing in South America alone really is something.

 

 

[jake]

3 hours ago, bobsharp said:

 

So Jake what hes he done exactly to avoid WW3.  He has Trumpeted about what he achieved in N.Korea, so far it has amounted to zero.  They have sent two hundred coffins to N.Korea for the remains of American dead. The ones that are for them will take three years to identify, there are five thousand missing Americans. 

He has pissed off NATO, and the European Union, has threatened to withdraw from NATO, he insulted Mengele in the press, he insulted Trudeau in the press, he insulted May in the press, and then contradicted himself in public, particularly when he was face to face with them. Remember that NATO is an invade one country that is a member, you invade us all union.  If the USA back out Russia will try it on, could lead to WW3. 

 

As a wee aside, Russia has for along time had its eye on the Artic, and its resources,  if they did attempt to land in there and claim the territory Canada who claim sovereinty would have to react, as a part of NATO the members would have to support Canada if there was conflict, would a U.S. Trump be included.

There's a lot to think on in your post.

 

Is it not better to have or at least attempt better relations.

And no Trump has not  dealt diplomatically with NATO.

But if the countries you speak of want protection from this alliance shouldn't they pay into it on a fairer scale?

Regarding the arctic bob I'm not up to scratch on that.

What I would say is that the only military advances seems to have come from NATO towards Russia.

Can you imagine if Russian troops advanced near US borders.

I know you can say Russian aggression around it's borders and interference in Ukraine .

Both are as bad is all I'm saying.

And the Russian bogeyman which was once the cry of the right has now been hijacked by mainstream.

 

I won't be surprised to hear of a Russian atrocity soon.

 

 

[Governor Tarkin]

14 minutes ago, jake said:

 

I won't be surprised to hear of a Russian atrocity soon.

 

 

 

And neither you should be, now that Putin has a free hand.

[Justin Z]

How in the world am I ignoring abuses in Central and South America by making the valid point that the US does not do stuff like try to assassinate people, or I dunno, wage cold wars and ongoing espionage for 70+ years, against big countries in the west? I sent this to my (Chilean!) flatmate just the other day for a laugh . . .

 

 

Do you think you're educating an ignorant American who's not aware what a bunch of bullshit his country spews about human rights and autonomy for all nations? Or are you just throwing random shit out there that the US has done that's bad because you don't have an argument that has been in any way considered or reasoned--as is often the case when you go on such rants--and want to look like you do?

 

Make a point. Don't just spew about the US' dismal record in some complete other part of the world and then tell me I'm naive or it's "really something".

[Jambo-Jimbo]

35 minutes ago, jake said:

I've no doubt Russia attempted to influence the democratic vote in the US.

 

12 trolls on social media versus multi million dollars in adverts.

A msm which is just about unanimous in anti Trump rhetoric.

 

 

You make it sound like it was 12 spotty faced teenagers sitting in their bedroom typing away, when in fact it was 12 Russian Military Intelligence operatives, working in a purpose built facility, sanctioned by and fully financed by the Russian State.  

 

Jake, this isn't some two bit amateur operation the Russians are running, this is a slick well run well financed dedicated cyber intelligence unit.

[ri Alban]

4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

You make it sound like it was 12 spotty faced teenagers sitting in their bedroom typing away, when in fact it was 12 Russian Military Intelligence operatives, working in a purpose built facility, sanctioned by and fully financed by the Russian State.  

 

Jake, this isn't some two bit amateur operation the Russians are running, this is a slick well run well financed dedicated cyber intelligence unit.

Only one troll. 

[Sharpie]

18 minutes ago, jake said:

I've no doubt Russia attempted to influence the democratic vote in the US.

 

12 trolls on social media versus multi million dollars in adverts.

A msm which is just about unanimous in anti Trump rhetoric.

 

 

Did you watch Carlson and Hannity last night Jake, a little bit of fake news there. Hannity on a one on one with Trump fed him the rehearsed lines for Trump to answer with his usual rhetoric we have all heard a million times before. I apologise for referring to it as news of any type, there is nothing further from the truth than that statement.

[jake]

3 minutes ago, bobsharp said:

 

Did you watch Carlson and Hannity last night Jake, a little bit of fake news there. Hannity on a one on one with Trump fed him the rehearsed lines for Trump to answer with his usual rhetoric we have all heard a million times before. I apologise for referring to it as news of any type, there is nothing further from the truth than that statement.

No I didn't.

Can only imagine how shit it was.

 

[jake]

37 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

You make it sound like it was 12 spotty faced teenagers sitting in their bedroom typing away, when in fact it was 12 Russian Military Intelligence operatives, working in a purpose built facility, sanctioned by and fully financed by the Russian State.  

 

Jake, this isn't some two bit amateur operation the Russians are running, this is a slick well run well financed dedicated cyber intelligence unit.

And they are not any more savvy than the media employed by their opposite number.

With resource that more than equals theirs.

It's a red herring.

 

 

[jake]

48 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

How in the world am I ignoring abuses in Central and South America by making the valid point that the US does not do stuff like try to assassinate people, or I dunno, wage cold wars and ongoing espionage for 70+ years, against big countries in the west? I sent this to my (Chilean!) flatmate just the other day for a laugh . . .

 

 

Do you think you're educating an ignorant American who's not aware what a bunch of bullshit his country spews about human rights and autonomy for all nations? Or are you just throwing random shit out there that the US has done that's bad because you don't have an argument that has been in any way considered or reasoned--as is often the case when you go on such rants--and want to look like you do?

 

Make a point. Don't just spew about the US' dismal record in some complete other part of the world and then tell me I'm naive or it's "really something".

My point is this.

You paint the Russians as bad guys because.

 

They interfered in US elections.

The US would never do that to their allies

They assassinate people.

They wage wars 

They practice espionage.

 

I'm not trying to educate you on anything ffs.

I dig holes for a living.

 

But I find the argument that Russia is bad because it does all these things and even though we do Russia is bad just a little bit flaky.

 

Random questions I don't think so .

There is vast evidence of the crimes we accuse Russia of being matched by the US.

The crimes that Trump is accused of are on par with previous regimes and his supposed backing from Russia is matched by his opposites  from equally repugnant regimes.

That he is a clown makes it convenient for everyone to take the high ground.

By all means call him out but the scale of opposition was nowhere to be seen before.

Why is that?

 

 

 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

And neither you should be, now that Putin has a free hand.

Touche

[jake]

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

For all its ills and past history of abuse of its hegemony, the US has never shown any inclination to pull any of that shit in places like the UK.

 

Russia? Novichok, anyone? That's just in the last year. As already mentioned up above, plenty of other history to go on, and unfortunately the fall of the wall hasn't been all it was cracked up to be in old Soviet Russia, since we're back to autocracy, but this time it's the actual KGB in power, not just the KGB working for the guys in power.

 

Jesus Christ, man.

And the poisoning on UK soil.

A horrible crime.

All fingers point to Russia.

 

And you say there is a lot of crimes to lay at Russia's door.

So that makes them the bad guy .

 

Meanwhile we have had regime change in quite a few countries at the hands of the CIA.

AND IT HAS LED TO THE DEATHS OF MILLIONS .

So if we are saying quite rightly that regimes are judged on these things then let's judge away.

[jake]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

And neither you should be, now that Putin has a free hand.

Although it could be argued that a weak Russia has given the US a free hand for military expansion and war.

Especially over the last 30 years.

 

But hey babies in incubators wmds regime changes sponsored terrorists.

 

That's just being the good guys.

 

[jake]

Anyway I'm nuts drunk or trolling because to some having a different opinion means those things.

Not all but some.

 

[Governor Tarkin]

29 minutes ago, jake said:

 

By all means call him out but the scale of opposition was nowhere to be seen before.

Why is that?

 

 

Social media. He makes himself a target with his outpourings and people are better connected than at any time in the past.

 

Name one other 'Leader of the Free World' who has publically shot their mouth off as much as Trump has.

 

You called it yourself when you called him a clown. He's a populist figurehead who's not socially qualified for the office he holds. If he wants to paint himself as the big man on an open forum like twitter then folk are going to (rightly) wade right in.

 

He struts about like a school bully who's just started learning about Il Duce in history class. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Governor Tarkin

[jake]

https://williamblum.org/chapters/rogue-state/trojan-horse-the-national-endowment-for-democracy

[jake]

7 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Social media. He makes himself a target with his outpourings and people are better connected than at any time in the past.

 

Name one other 'Leader of the Free World' who has publically shot their mouth off as much as Trump has.

 

You called it yourself when you called him a clown. He's a populist figurehead who's not socially qualified for the office he holds. If he wants to paint himself as the big man on an open forum like twitter then folk are going to (rightly) wade right in.

 

He struts about like a school bully who's just started learning about Il Duce in history class. 

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree.

It's not really the point though.

If Trump was the real problem and had the support of the machinations of the US then it would be a worry.

He doesn't.

Others do though and their goings on are ignored.

At least in comparison to the opposition to him.

[Governor Tarkin]

7 minutes ago, jake said:

I don't disagree.

It's not really the point though.

If Trump was the real problem and had the support of the machinations of the US then it would be a worry.

He doesn't.

Others do though and their goings on are ignored.

At least in comparison to the opposition to him.

 

This is a thread about Trump though.

 

You're labouring a point that really doesn't need laboured, mate. 

[Notts1874]

And there's the flip.

 

Saying that he said would instead of wouldn't about Russian meddling. Or some other such drivel.

 

Guys a genius though

[jake]

6 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

This is a thread about Trump though.

 

You're labouring a point that really doesn't need laboured, mate. 

Sorry.

Making my own heid spin .

Point taken

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

And there's the flip.

 

Saying that he said would instead of wouldn't about Russian meddling. Or some other such drivel.

 

Guys a genius though

 

A stable genius no less.

 

So the WH have let this go on for over 24 hours before trying to claim that Trump misspoke.

It's all been a simple misunderstanding, well that's that sorted then.

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, jake said:

By all means call him out but the scale of opposition was nowhere to be seen before.

Why is that?

 

Because people are shit.

[milky_26]

trump back pedals saying he accepts the fbi/cia conclusion that russia meddled with the election

[jake]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Because people are shit.

Cannot argue with that.

 

Unfortunately ?

[Bazzas right boot]

The Internet is fabby. 

[Francis Albert]

Skipping the ritual condemnations with which on the whole I agree he did at least three things on his European tour that were not lies but refreshingly honest and true statements though not diplomatic and were true in a "the king has got no clothes" naïve or childish simplicity.

That the May proposal on Brexit will preclude a free trade deal between the US and UK.

That German and other European nations underspending on defence while relying on US funding of NATO is indefensible, especially when Germany funds (probably against EU rules) the Nordstream 2 pipeline which ensures Germany being dependent on Russian imports for 80% of its gas supplies.

That the US and Russia shares responsibility for the deterioration in US/Russian relations.