How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[jack D and coke]

8 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

 

These same stupid people you speak of, also vote on who runs the country. Whether we like it or not, they are entitled to an opinion/vote the same as everyone. How would you decide how the country is able to gain independence, other than giving the people who live their the choice to decide if that is their wish?  

It’s only people who vote Yes and the SNP who should be seen and not heard though mate, obviously. 

Theres absolutely no complete and utter weapons who vote No. 

[AlphonseCapone]

45 minutes ago, Jim Weir said:

Not for me. I'm not a fan of referendums, largely because there are an inordinate amount of stupid people out there who should be seen and not heard 

 

Do you consider yourself in that bracket? Or are you saying there are an inordinate amount of people you think you are better than? How did you decide?

[stevie]

1 hour ago, luckyBatistuta said:

 

 

Not having a dig, but do either of you think we should have another referendum on Brexit. Lost count of how many people I’ve heard say that there shouldn’t be another Indy ref, as it’s already been voted on and we should all accept the outcome, yet they then turn around two minutes later and say they want another vote on Brexit and they don’t want to accept the outcome.

 

 

 

I don't think there should be another vote.

.FWIW I think if there was another vote it'd be a landslide vote for leave.

[luckyBatistuta]

15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s only people who vote Yes and the SNP who should be seen and not heard though mate, obviously. 

Theres absolutely no complete and utter weapons who vote No. 

 

Oh no, definitely no weapons in that lot, we should all strive to be just like them ?

[luckyBatistuta]

37 minutes ago, stevie said:

 

I don't think there should be another vote.

.FWIW I think if there was another vote it'd be a landslide vote for leave.

 

I agree with your first point, but on your second, I think it would be close but in favour of remain.

[Coolio]

12 hours ago, coconut doug said:

I ask again, what are these dire consequences?

 

I'd be interested to see you answer some questions.

 

I have to admit cd that I wasn't really enjoying some of the playground chat on this thread but then your post made me realise that an informed opinion did exist.

 

I am, like you, equally looking forward to reading the answers from JW in reply to your final line.

[Coolio]

16 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

You should try the sober, measured and objective analysis of those that use and work in Scotland’s NHS. That it works at all is a testament to those that work there who go ‘above and beyond’. 

 

At least you now accept that the front-line NHS in Scotland was starved of funds by the SNP government, not Westminster, the SNP. However, you glibly dismiss the fact be saying it has been restored. Has it? Has the damage been repaired? Don’t you think that such diversion of funds was, at best, very poor judgement and, more likely, criminal given the impact on lives. 

 

Last word on this matter comes from the Nursing Times - 

 

‘The annual review of the health service by the Auditor General for Scotland found performance continued to decline in 2017-18, with the health service achieving just one out of eight key national targets.’

 

You said, ‘I know you don’t believe in austerity.’ 

 

Quite the contrary - I believe that the SNP introduced austerity in Scotland 3 years before the Tories got to power. The SNP badly miscalculated the cost of their headline manifesto and instead of replacing Council Tax they introduced their Freeze. It has been downhill all the way since then. 

 

Anyhow, how is the Prospectus coming along? You know, your party’s plan for how an independent Scotland will survive.

 

I know that planning for such is anathema to many of the Nats in this forum (who seem to fly into a rage at the mere mention) but don’t you think that having the courtesy to tell the people about the anticipated outcome of the referendum would be an important first step - a step to be taken before launching any timetable? After all, the lack of any identification of the post-Brexit landscape has gone down a storm, hasn’t it. 

 

Does this ring any bells?

 

 

As opposed to the No version - (The 'Vow' is written on the back)

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

14 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

I'm really not convinced that there are enough people who voted Remain but voted No to Indie that would change their mind.

 

I base that on the view of two tribes of people who voted No: 

1. There are those who voted no because they felt the economy/standard of living would be hammered

2. People who absolutely despise the SNP. 

 

The SNP could have incredible success governing Scotland and month before an Indie ref 2 vote announce they'd had backed a company that has made a world changing scientific discovery that would create billions for decades (or substitute that for Oil) and they would still say No.

 

I am open minded about Indie, i lean more positively towards it but i do see a lot of people who are absolutely close minded to the idea due to their toxic outlook on the SNP.

FFS! There would be a Scottish general election. SNP would get voted out as new parties with different policies would be after the votes. People think it would be SNP in perpetuity, it wouldn't. I don't think yes would win as too many non thinkers and Stockholm syndrome types. 

[Roxy Hearts]

13 hours ago, Jim Weir said:

Do you think SNP have performed well on devolved matters? 

 

Presumably you feel their fixation on Independence hasn't been to the detriment of other crucial aspects within the economic and social landscape in Scotland? 

 

Let's turn our backs on the largest trading partner we have and be part of an EU who have behaved in an interesting manner towards the UK over the past 2 years. 

 

It's purely opportunism and I suspect you know that full well. They'll attach themselves to whatever cause or subject imaginable in order to pursue Independence objective. 

 

What we are experiencing in Scotland is the dire consequences of a protest party obtaining power 

 

You cannot reason with nationalism 

Dearie me! Cringe right there. Can you not think what Scotland can do and not view everything through the SNP? Ffs. We will still trade just like Eire. Honestly, what is wrong with you and your ilk? 

[CavySlaveJambo]

14 hours ago, Ray Gin said:

 

Two of the major campaign points for 'no' were promises that we'd be getting 'Devo-Max' (bull****) and that it would guarantee that we kept our place in the EU (also bull****). Why should voters be held to their vote forever when the politicians don't stick to their pledges?

 

I would actually say that these two claims are the major reasons for some people voting No. 

 

In any case I’d say try and get independence and then try and find the best relationship for scotland with the EU. 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

I would actually say that these two claims are the major reasons for some people voting No. 

 

In any case I’d say try and get independence and then try and find the best relationship for scotland with the EU. 

True and good idea. Still a lot of people believe the propaganda from the media. A lot of NO voters are not the most considerate and I include family and friends. Some of the stuff I hear is beyond any normal comprehension and from fairly intelligent folk!

[frankblack]

28 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

I would actually say that these two claims are the major reasons for some people voting No. 

 

In any case I’d say try and get independence and then try and find the best relationship for scotland with the EU. 

 

The infamous white paper was one of the main reasons people voted Yes.  That proved to be a complete and utter work of fiction, and showed the SNP up to be completely lacking in credibility.

 

This latest attempt at resusitating the SNP Indy Ref 2 campaign is an act of desperation by a failing SNP government that realises it has every chance of losing control at Holyrood at the next election up here.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

The infamous white paper was one of the main reasons people voted Yes.  That proved to be a complete and utter work of fiction, and showed the SNP up to be completely lacking in credibility.

 

This latest attempt at resusitating the SNP Indy Ref 2 campaign is an act of desperation by a failing SNP government that realises it has every chance of losing control at Holyrood at the next election up here.

What like? TM and the Tories at Wm. They're still in power and making a great job of EU withdrawal. Don't you think? But hey, Britain will be Great and Scotland will be shite.  Why? Just because, Rrrrrriiiiight!

 

Tell me, why is Brexit so great for British Sovereignty, laws, currency, Trade and taking back control of the borders, but Scottish Independence isn't? Because if EU membership is lack of sovereignty for The UK, what the Donald duck is the Union for Scottish sovereignty. Gove and Fox need to explain that one day.

 

Maybe it's better to do all the dirty laundry at the same time. Maybe It's time Scotland fashioned an economy to suit it's size, maybe Scotland can take it's place in the world,as the small country it is, maybe it can forge new trades and alliances with countries it's own size , maybe it can have some degree of membership in the EU and maybe, just maybe, it can have a new relationship with England.

 

I'm sure a federal UK would have kept both sides happy, but it's too late for that, Independence is just months away. And Tory arrogance and English nationalism through Brexit was the key to the title deeds.

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by ri Alban

[Thunderstruck]

5 hours ago, Coolio said:

 

Does this ring any bells?

 

 

As opposed to the No version - (The 'Vow' is written on the back)

 

 

 

Hopefully, your post is an attempt at humour but in case not:-

 

The first thing to say is that nationalists are pressing for change from the status quo. It is incumbent upon them to make the case for change. 

 

The second thing to say to say is that you have quite clearly never opened the work of fiction entitled “Scotland’s Future”. 

[Brighton Jambo]

19 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Exactly. Why some people utterly refuse to accept circumstances have changed and we were lied to is bizarre. 

Nobody wants constant referendums but circumstances have shifted quite measurably. Denying that makes you sound like an absolute idiot. 

But poll after poll has said the Scottish people don’t want another referendum on this.  Consistnestly for more than 4 years that has been the case.   Why not actually listen to the voters of Scotland? 

[Brighton Jambo]

19 hours ago, coconut doug said:

I ask again, what are these dire consequences?

 

I'd be interested to see you answer some questions.

Too many points in there to challenge so I will just pick two:

 

the fact that that you don’t believe they are overly fixated on independence is literally incredible and shows me you can never and will never accept any view that critises the SNP. 

 

You state are that we are doing better than rest of UK but frankly who cares.  The test should be how things are performing for Scotland and major areas such as education standards have declined compared to where they were.  Do you deny that compared to previous years Scottish education standards have fallen? 

 

That said if we use your let’s compare us to UK test please can you explain why the Scottish economy has consistently grown more slowly than the rest of UK?  

 

 

[Ibrahim Tall]

21 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Too many points in there to challenge so I will just pick two:

 

the fact that that you don’t believe they are overly fixated on independence is literally incredible and shows me you can never and will never accept any view that critises the SNP. 

 

You state are that we are doing better than rest of UK but frankly who cares.  The test should be how things are performing for Scotland and major areas such as education standards have declined compared to where they were.  Do you deny that compared to previous years Scottish education standards have fallen? 

 

That said if we use your let’s compare us to UK test please can you explain why the Scottish economy has consistently grown more slowly than the rest of UK?  

 

 

 

“Rest of the UK” isn’t exactly a fair comparison, e.g. it includes London which massively skewes the statistics. 

If you compare Scotland against Wales, N Ireland, England(-London) id imagine statistics are a lot healthier.

London is a world city, it makes 99% of the planet look shit.

[AlphonseCapone]

7 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

The infamous white paper was one of the main reasons people voted Yes.  That proved to be a complete and utter work of fiction, and showed the SNP up to be completely lacking in credibility.

 

This latest attempt at resusitating the SNP Indy Ref 2 campaign is an act of desperation by a failing SNP government that realises it has every chance of losing control at Holyrood at the next election up here.

 

Not a single poll has suggested that. Ironically I think the only way the SNP haters will get them out of power is through independence. 

 

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

But poll after poll has said the Scottish people don’t want another referendum on this.  Consistnestly for more than 4 years that has been the case.   Why not actually listen to the voters of Scotland? 

 

Not strictly true, there has been several polls that have found the majority would want a second independence referendum depending on the outcome of Brexit. So exactly, why not actually listen to the voters of Scotland? 

[Brighton Jambo]

3 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Not a single poll has suggested that. Ironically I think the only way the SNP haters will get them out of power is through independence. 

 

 

Not strictly true, there has been several polls that have found the majority would want a second independence referendum depending on the outcome of Brexit. So exactly, why not actually listen to the voters of Scotland? 

But we don’t know the outcome so why are nationalists pushing for one now?? 

[Sarah O]

Any chance of making this question a poll?

[Toggie88]

12 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

But we don’t know the outcome so why are nationalists pushing for one now?? 

 

There's also a democratic mandate for another referendum and a majority in the Scottish Parliament for another referendum - something which Westminster is clearly incapable of cobbling together on anything Brexit. This has been the case since the last Scottish Parliament elections. 

 

Ironically, it's not 'the nationalists' that have been 'pushing for one'. It's the Tories who constantly go on about the SNP's obsession with 'another referendum' yet they're the ones who bring it up at every opportunity - and that is just a tactic to entice former Labour voters to the Tories. They're the ones seeking to further the divide along the lines of independence. 

 

The SNP's position has been clear since before the EU referendum, this is from their manifesto before the Brexit vote: 

 

Quote

We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there
is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.

Source: SNP manifesto 2016, page 23

 

So the second criteria has already been met. The SNP were elected on a manifesto commitment to hold another referendum, if they don't they'd actually be breaking their promise to the electorate. If it had been a commitment on the NHS, education or anything else, every other party in the parliament would be jumping up and down demanding action by now. 

 

We also shouldn't forget the unbelievable argument by some that 'we had our say in 2014 and Nicola Sturgeon should instead be focused on another Brexit referendum (which was voted on in 2016)'. It's the literal definition of hypocrisy. 

 

 

[XB52]

23 hours ago, coconut doug said:

I ask again, what are these dire consequences?

 

I'd be interested to see you answer some questions.

I would suggest not holding your breath. Anyone who uses 'wee nippy' is hardly going to take part in intelligent debate

[Coolio]

3 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Hopefully, your post is an attempt at humour but in case not:-

 

The first thing to say is that nationalists are pressing for change from the status quo. It is incumbent upon them to make the case for change. 

 

The second thing to say to say is that you have quite clearly never opened the work of fiction entitled “Scotland’s Future”. 

 

My post was not, in any way, meant to be humorous. 

 

The first thing - Wrong - As was seen by Cameron's panic in coming to Scotland at the last minute when he thought he might lose the vote, it is incumbent on both sides to convince the voters. Hence 'Vow' hastily written in an attempt to placate.

 

The second thing - Do not make statements/assumptions about people you do not know. You have no insight whatsoever of my knowledge of the “Scotland’s Future” document so refrain from telling me what I've done.

If I was to 'guess' I'd say you have absolutely no idea of the content within said document other than the skewed paraphrasing of it that you read in your Daily Mail or via Mail online (for clarification - no attempt at humour intended).

[Thunderstruck]

3 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Too many points in there to challenge so I will just pick two:

 

the fact that that you don’t believe they are overly fixated on independence is literally incredible and shows me you can never and will never accept any view that critises the SNP. 

 

You state are that we are doing better than rest of UK but frankly who cares.  The test should be how things are performing for Scotland and major areas such as education standards have declined compared to where they were.  Do you deny that compared to previous years Scottish education standards have fallen? 

 

That said if we use your let’s compare us to UK test please can you explain why the Scottish economy has consistently grown more slowly than the rest of UK?  

 

 

 

These threads are starting to show tacit agreement by nationalists that the SNP isn't really much cop at the ‘day job’. 

 

More and more of them now argue that the SNP will not be in power on day 1 of independence and that, having delivered its aim, it will disband.

 

Clearly, even hardened nationalists are growing weary of trying to defend the indefensible in terms of that party’s competence. 

 

I’m not sure how the notion that the SNP will walk away is meant to reassure as it is adding a layer of doubt over political direction on top of a divorce that not a single one of them wants to plan for. 

 

Of course, we all know that the SNP will not go quietly into the night. Like all politicians they crave power and will do their utmost to keep it. 

[Toggie88]

44 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

Any chance of making this question a poll?

 

Done: 

 

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Not a single poll has suggested that. Ironically I think the only way the SNP haters will get them out of power is through independence. 

 

 

Not strictly true, there has been several polls that have found the majority would want a second independence referendum depending on the outcome of Brexit. So exactly, why not actually listen to the voters of Scotland? 

 

Polls are unreliable.  In any case it doesn't look like Brexit has the remotest chance of happening, which is going exactly as TM wanted as a remainer.

 

With Brexit soon to be kicked into touch that leaves little for the SNP to build an Indy Ref 2 campaign on.

 

I strongly doubt the Tories would authorise another Independence Ref when they are in complete meltdown.

[Thunderstruck]

7 minutes ago, Coolio said:

 

My post was not, in any way, meant to be humorous. 

 

The first thing - Wrong - As was seen by Cameron's panic in coming to Scotland at the last minute when he thought he might lose the vote, it is incumbent on both sides to convince the voters. Hence 'Vow' hastily written in an attempt to placate.

 

The second thing - Do not make statements/assumptions about people you do not know. You have no insight whatsoever of my knowledge of the “Scotland’s Future” document so refrain from telling me what I've done.

If I was to 'guess' I'd say you have absolutely no idea of the content within said document other than the skewed paraphrasing of it that you read in your Daily Mail or via Mail online (for clarification - no attempt at humour intended).

 

You are quite correct, your level of understanding of “Scotland’s Future” is a mystery to me.

 

If, however, you think it was in any way a cogent plan for the future, I can surmise that reading and comprehension are not good bedfellows in your skill set. 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

These threads are starting to show tacit agreement by nationalists that the SNP isn't really much cop at the ‘day job’. 

 

More and more of them now argue that the SNP will not be in power on day 1 of independence and that, having delivered its aim, it will disband.

 

Clearly, even hardened nationalists are growing weary of trying to defend the indefensible in terms of that party’s competence. 

 

I’m not sure how the notion that the SNP will walk away is meant to reassure as it is adding a layer of doubt over political direction on top of a divorce that not a single one of them wants to plan for. 

 

Of course, we all know that the SNP will not go quietly into the night. Like all politicians they crave power and will do their utmost to keep it. 

My support for the SNP is stronger than ever. They are the only party that stands up for Scotland especially in WM. Who else am I supposed to vote for? 

 

Some of the mud slinging is just about the dislike for them without foundation. They stand up well with their governance against all other parts of the UK. 

 

I would probably vote for a real Scottish Conservative party if we achieved independence not that lot with the moronic Davidson. 

[Coolio]

2 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

These threads are starting to show tacit agreement by nationalists that the SNP isn't really much cop at the ‘day job’. 

 

More and more of them now argue that the SNP will not be in power on day 1 of independence and that, having delivered its aim, it will disband.

 

Clearly, even hardened nationalists are growing weary of trying to defend the indefensible in terms of that party’s competence. 

 

I’m not sure how the notion that the SNP will walk away is meant to reassure as it is adding a layer of doubt over political direction on top of a divorce that not a single one of them wants to plan for. 

 

Of course, we all know that the SNP will not go quietly into the night. Like all politicians they crave power and will do their utmost to keep it. 

 

2 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

You are quite correct, your level of understanding of “Scotland’s Future” is a mystery to me.

 

If, however, you think it was in any way a cogent plan for the future, I can surmise that reading and comprehension are not good bedfellows in your skill set. 

 

Re the highlighted above -

 

It is clear that you have 'your' opinion on 'everything'. This in itself should never be viewed as a bad thing.

 

However, Forums/Threads like this are designed for the discussion of opinions in relation to the subject matter and can regularly lead to contributors simply agreeing to disagree when opposing views are so far apart. I like that approach as it ensures healthy discourse.

 

I have highlighted some areas of just a sample of your posts simply to make you aware that your manner is very patronising and as such significantly weakens any point you are arguing by making the recipient switch off.

 

That said however, your audience is completely lost when you 'quote' non substance matter. There is no expectation of people on here that everyone should produce PowerPoint presentations with full statistical analysis therein but to simply state your opinion as being fact is poor and lazy.

 

The 'Yes Voters' church is open to all, repent and you will be welcomed.

[Don Dan]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit-has-not-moved-minds-on-indyref-question-says-sir-john-curtice-1-4859147

 

“The country’s leading pollster has insisted there is no evidence to support claims by the SNP that there has been a rise in support for a second independence referendum despite the ongoing turmoil surrounding Brexit.”

 

[Mysterion]

14 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

FFS! There would be a Scottish general election. SNP would get voted out as new parties with different policies would be after the votes. People think it would be SNP in perpetuity, it wouldn't. I don't think yes would win as too many non thinkers and Stockholm syndrome types. 

 

Parties will have to rebrand (you’ll not have a Conservative & Unionist party for example, however I’d suggest outside some minor name changes you’ll probably not see new parties turn up. We already have effectively a right wing party, left wing party, 2 centrist party and Green Party for starters. 

 

Unless the the communists are making a comeback or one offs like Sheridan I don’t think new parties are likely in an Indie Scotland. 

 

I’m not rubbishing your suggestion - what I think is much more likely is that if Indie happened you would see a small % of voters shuffle around (as mad as it sounds you will have Nats who feel fiscally Conservative, some who feel Labours socialism fits them better once the objective of leaving the union is achieved).

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

14 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

Parties will have to rebrand (you’ll not have a Conservative & Unionist party for example, however I’d suggest outside some minor name changes you’ll probably not see new parties turn up. We already have effectively a right wing party, left wing party, 2 centrist party and Green Party for starters. 

 

Unless the the communists are making a comeback or one offs like Sheridan I don’t think new parties are likely in an Indie Scotland. 

 

I’m not rubbishing your suggestion - what I think is much more likely is that if Indie happened you would see a small % of voters shuffle around (as mad as it sounds you will have Nats who feel fiscally Conservative, some who feel Labours socialism fits them better once the objective of leaving the union is achieved).

 

 

There needs to be a better balance and learn to compromise. We don't want party politics, what we need is a grown up parliament to represent everyone's views and endeavour to create harmony. I like my naive thoughts but being governed by WM really does suck the life out of you. Scotland needs better representation as a so called "equal partner"! 

[Thunderstruck]

48 minutes ago, Coolio said:

 

 

Re the highlighted above -

 

It is clear that you have 'your' opinion on 'everything'. This in itself should never be viewed as a bad thing.

 

However, Forums/Threads like this are designed for the discussion of opinions in relation to the subject matter and can regularly lead to contributors simply agreeing to disagree when opposing views are so far apart. I like that approach as it ensures healthy discourse.

 

I have highlighted some areas of just a sample of your posts simply to make you aware that your manner is very patronising and as such significantly weakens any point you are arguing by making the recipient switch off.

 

That said however, your audience is completely lost when you 'quote' non substance matter. There is no expectation of people on here that everyone should produce PowerPoint presentations with full statistical analysis therein but to simply state your opinion as being fact is poor and lazy.

 

The 'Yes Voters' church is open to all, repent and you will be welcomed.

 

I’m not sure how highlighting those random sections of text makes your point.

 

If, however, you disagree with any of the points, please feel free to contradict what was written; doing that might be more in the interests of healthy discourse than ad hominem attacks. 

 

In the section I have highlighted:- 

 

Please explain what the ‘quoted non substance matter’ might be. 

 

As for your reference to PowerPoint and statistical analysis - looking at the quoted posts, I can only assume that you are referring to having a plan (or not) for running Scotland if it were ever to be independent. Is it too much to ask that those pressing for independence should have the integrity to present the voting public with a programme for withdrawal from the U.K.  Surely, the lessons of Brexit are not to be ignored so soon. 

 

 

[Coolio]

39 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I’m not sure how highlighting those random sections of text makes your point.

 

If, however, you disagree with any of the points, please feel free to contradict what was written; doing that might be more in the interests of healthy discourse than ad hominem attacks. 

 

In the section I have highlighted:- 

 

Please explain what the ‘quoted non substance matter’ might be. 

 

As for your reference to PowerPoint and statistical analysis - looking at the quoted posts, I can only assume that you are referring to having a plan (or not) for running Scotland if it were ever to be independent. Is it too much to ask that those pressing for independence should have the integrity to present the voting public with a programme for withdrawal from the U.K.  Surely, the lessons of Brexit are not to be ignored so soon. 

 

 

 

 

You're not really getting this are you?

 

"integrity" - You are seriously having a laugh here - Priceless - Have a look at any dictionary's definition of this word and ask yourself if the No campaign and it's MASS media bias in any way acted with integrity.

 

The level of lying and constant barrage of, sometimes personal, abuse aimed at Scotland's FM was way beyond acceptable. Some will no doubt claim that the end justifies the means but if you want to claim "integrity" is a core value in relation to your 'side's' argument then  this  to infinity.

 

"The lessons of Brexit.........." - You are, without a doubt, at it to use this example. 

 

 

 

[Thunderstruck]

9 minutes ago, Coolio said:

 

 

You're not really getting this are you?

 

"integrity" - You are seriously having a laugh here - Priceless - Have a look at any dictionary's definition of this word and ask yourself if the No campaign and it's MASS media bias in any way acted with integrity.

 

The level of lying and constant barrage of, sometimes personal, abuse aimed at Scotland's FM was way beyond acceptable. Some will no doubt claim that the end justifies the means but if you want to claim "integrity" is a core value in relation to your 'side's' argument then  this  to infinity.

 

"The lessons of Brexit.........." - You are, without a doubt, at it to use this example. 

 

 

 

 

So, you really aren’t interested in healthy discourse, are you. Just another Nat with no answers, a keenness to indulge in whataboutery and a very one-sided view of the misdeeds in politics. 

 

If you think diving into another referendum without offering up some form of prospectus is the way to go, you crack on. The outcome will not be good from your point of view. 

 

The truth is that their isn’t a plan out there that makes good reading from a nationalist point of view. That much was demonstrated by the recent output by the SNP’s tame experts which pointed to at least 10 years of difficult or challenging economic times. Good luck selling that. 

 

The lesson of Brexit is that the Leave side appealed to nationalism and regaining control while offering no notion of how the withdrawal might be managed. If you missed that, you really haven’t been paying attention.  

[Roxy Hearts]

5 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

So, you really aren’t interested in healthy discourse, are you. Just another Nat with no answers, a keenness to indulge in whataboutery and a very one-sided view of the misdeeds in politics. 

 

If you think diving into another referendum without offering up some form of prospectus is the way to go, you crack on. The outcome will not be good from your point of view. 

 

The truth is that their isn’t a plan out there that makes good reading from a nationalist point of view. That much was demonstrated by the recent output by the SNP’s tame experts which pointed to at least 10 years of difficult or challenging economic times. Good luck selling that. 

 

The lesson of Brexit is that the Leave side appealed to nationalism and regaining control while offering no notion of how the withdrawal might be managed. If you missed that, you really haven’t been paying attention.  

Why do you call all independence voters, nationalists? SNP has national in their party meaning but it's construed in a negative manner. Any intelligent person knows that supporting Scotland over WM is putting our country's interest first. If I'm am a nationalist or a patriot then so what. My belief is that we can manage our affairs better than anyone else and anything other than that is dense to me. Honestly can't get my head round the negativity of people when discussing our country. Why don't they live somewhere else if they have no belief. 

[frankblack]

31 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Why do you call all independence voters, nationalists? SNP has national in their party meaning but it's construed in a negative manner. Any intelligent person knows that supporting Scotland over WM is putting our country's interest first. If I'm am a nationalist or a patriot then so what. My belief is that we can manage our affairs better than anyone else and anything other than that is dense to me. Honestly can't get my head round the negativity of people when discussing our country. Why don't they live somewhere else if they have no belief. 

 

The problem is with your point of view is that No voters are not convinced that the SNP are competent to take the country into Independence - its nothing against Scotland but everything against the SNP.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

The problem is with your point of view is that No voters are not convinced that the SNP are competent to take the country into Independence - its nothing against Scotland but everything against the SNP.

They exist to take us there. I will vote in a Scottish General Election and choose the party I think best represents the  policies that suits Scotland needs. Surely that's more democratic. No voters are hard to convince as most have entrenched views, unfortunately. 

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

They exist to take us there. I will vote in a Scottish General Election and choose the party I think best represents the  policies that suits Scotland needs. Surely that's more democratic. No voters are hard to convince as most have entrenched views, unfortunately. 

 

Everyone's entitled to vote for whoever they choose.  However, you need to respect others rights to disagree with the SNP and have a different vision for Scotland - you call No voters entrenched yet then go on to criticise them for not sharing your views.

[coconut doug]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Everyone's entitled to vote for whoever they choose.  However, you need to respect others rights to disagree with the SNP and have a different vision for Scotland - you call No voters entrenched yet then go on to criticise them for not sharing your views.

In what way is your vision for Scotland different to that of the SNP and independence supporters? Genuine question.

[Roxy Hearts]

38 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Everyone's entitled to vote for whoever they choose.  However, you need to respect others rights to disagree with the SNP and have a different vision for Scotland - you call No voters entrenched yet then go on to criticise them for not sharing your views.

What's your vision for Scotland? I will always criticise No voters as they have no vision for our country. As I said they have entrenched views. For goodness sake, surely we can govern ourselves better. 

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

In what way is your vision for Scotland different to that of the SNP and independence supporters? Genuine question.

 

I prefer not to deal in idealism and fantasy and deal with cold hard facts.

 

The SNP's plan for Independence is to throw the country under a bus and walk away.

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I prefer not to deal in idealism and fantasy and deal with cold hard facts.

 

The SNP's plan for Independence is to throw the country under a bus and walk away.

I'm not asking about the SNP's vision. I want what's best for Scotland and I don't think that's best served under WM. I presume you think we can't govern ourselves as a hard fact? I believe we can be better than say, Ethiopia. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm not asking about the SNP's vision. I want what's best for Scotland and I don't think that's best served under WM. I presume you think we can't govern ourselves as a hard fact? I believe we can be better than say, Ethiopia. 

 

I don't think the SNP are capable of governing us, and having full fiscal control.  Your comparison with Ethiopia is nonsense.

 

The fact is that our economy is heavily intertwined with London in particular with Edinburgh being a financial hub where many thousands of jobs exist because of being part of the UK.  The SNP failed spectacularly at the last Indy Ref with their white paper littered with fiction dressed up as fact.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

I don't think the SNP are capable of governing us, and having full fiscal control.  Your comparison with Ethiopia is nonsense.

 

The fact is that our economy is heavily intertwined with London in particular with Edinburgh being a financial hub where many thousands of jobs exist because of being part of the UK.  The SNP failed spectacularly at the last Indy Ref with their white paper littered with fiction dressed up as fact.

Why do you keep on mentioning the SNP? They will not be in power after independence. Never read the white paper and it wouldn't matter what they produced, would it? What did the stupid lot produce for the stupid? Edinburgh intertwined with London and other major cities too. Stop being so typically insular. 

 

Ethiopia is a poor country and I used that as an example of what No voters think Scotland would become eg. Third world!

[frankblack]

8 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Why do you keep on mentioning the SNP? They will not be in power after independence. Never read the white paper and it wouldn't matter what they produced, would it? What did the stupid lot produce for the stupid? Edinburgh intertwined with London and other major cities too. Stop being so typically insular. 

 

Ethiopia is a poor country and I used that as an example of what No voters think Scotland would become eg. Third world!

 

There lies your problem.  After Brexit you seriously think that the SNP can sell the view that they won't tell what the divorce bill will be in terms of share of national debt, new infrastructure such as computer systems, etc and just walk away and hold a Scottish election with nothing resolved up front?

 

Edinburgh financial instituions are tied to working with London more than any other countries.

 

The public are never going to buy into something that makes them poorer and most likely costs them their jobs if they work in Financial Services, and the SNP will never be allowed to walk away after winning an independence vote like you mention - they will be held to account.

[Roxy Hearts]

Divorce bill! We own assets worth multi billions as % of the stinking UK. Why does WM want to keep us if we are not viable? Financial services is that it? UK has nowt without Scotland. Stop mentioning the SNP and think about us, the people and what we could achieve. 

 

May and Corbyn and their ilk. We can't do better than that? 

 

 

[Ricardo Shillyshally]

Before I answer, can someone tell me what currency we will have?

[ri Alban]

18 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Parties will have to rebrand (you’ll not have a Conservative & Unionist party for example, however I’d suggest outside some minor name changes you’ll probably not see new parties turn up. We already have effectively a right wing party, left wing party, 2 centrist party and Green Party for starters. 

 

Unless the the communists are making a comeback or one offs like Sheridan I don’t think new parties are likely in an Indie Scotland. 

 

I’m not rubbishing your suggestion - what I think is much more likely is that if Indie happened you would see a small % of voters shuffle around (as mad as it sounds you will have Nats who feel fiscally Conservative, some who feel Labours socialism fits them better once the objective of leaving the union is achieved).

 

 

The SNP as you have highlighted are a coalition. They will join new Parties of Labour, Conservative, Liddem, but I think the Greens will be quite successful in an indy Scotland, if they're not mental.

Edited January 20, 2019 by ri Alban

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Agent Salmond outed at last