How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[Roxy Hearts]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That is complete and utter bollocks.

 

 

You sound like someone from the Green Brigade.  Give it up, you are not helping your cause.  FYI everyone born in the UK is by default a citizen of the United Kingdom, including yourself I assume.  The people voted to reject Independence and Yes won't get a better chance in the near future.

The Green Brigade, give it a rest, I don't think they would like my masonic tendencies. Of course we are all citizens of the UK and absolutely nothing wrong with it. Why don't those who wish to be governed by Westminster say they are British first and nothing wrong with that either. 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

I presume you meant the other way around here, Boris ?  If so I agree.  Too much pigeon holing and generalising going on, some of it quite ridiculous. There is a usually a full spectrum of opinion on any given subject. There are certainly plenty of Yes supporters around who don't particularly like the SNP. Even a small slice of Tories support Yes!

 

Em, I think so.  I guess what I was trying to say that people will vote yes or no, but to pigeon hole them as x or y because of that is wrong.  As well as being lazy and hard of thinking.

 

 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

The Green Brigade, give it a rest, I don't think they would like my masonic tendencies. Of course we are all citizens of the UK and absolutely nothing wrong with it. Why don't those who wish to be governed by Westminster say they are British first and nothing wrong with that either. 

 

Because it's not as simple as that.

[Roxy Hearts]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Because it's not as simple as that.

I know that Boris but the demands on the Indy supporters for everything gets on my wick. I'm trying to establish what the No side consider when feeling British. 

[coconut doug]

On ‎22‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 13:30, Thunderstruck said:

 

Back from leave and have now seen this peach. 

 

A point on your selection of reviews - it is a nice example of confirmation bias. You disagree with his thesis and so looked for negative reviews. Fine, but some balance might be informative; I can’t see the Guardian being entirely open to the views of a former nuclear strategist for a US Administration. 

 

On a Market/Economic State - you can’t think of an example, not a single example?

 

Bear in mind that these entities don’t simply pop up overnight, they evolve. For example, it may start with some collaboration on strategic industry, then grow that into a trading agreement (a ‘common market’ if you like), then remove of barriers to movement, then form ever closer governmental arrangements as individual states cede power to the centre, then establish a supreme court and a military. 

 

If that describes something that is ‘nihilistic’, I might be needing a new dictionary. 

 

I heard it said, in a discussion on the subject, that the World’s largest economy is an example of a highly developed market state. I’m not sure that is why the USA developed as it did but there is certainly merit in the argument. 

 

 

It seems you cannot even follow your own arguments. What is this nonsense about “confirmation bias”? You were the one who claimed ‘Bizarre’ is not an adjective that I have seen associated with his work.  Didn’t you understand that the reviews I quoted were in response to your claim and not my confirmation bias? These reviews were selected specifically to refute your point. Why would you expect balance, I am using these reviews to refute your claim and they are obviously going to support my point of view.

           I didn’t select any of the lesser known reviews because I considered the London Review of Books to be the best informed and most objective reviewer of books. It’s what they do, they are very good at it and I am familiar with them. I also chose The Observer imagining that its literary section had some residual status, apparently not though. There are lots who like Bobbitt’s book and many others who criticise elements of it. There are at least two sides to every argument including this one.  I know this because there are differing views expressed from reviewers and because I have a different view to you, confirmation bias does not enter into at all.

       On a Market/Economic State - you can’t think of an example, not a single example?  Which one are you going for market or economic they are not the same? No, I can’t think of one, that’s why I asked you to provide an exemplar for your assertion.  I expect you will not be forthcoming.

        Of course I understand that societies change but not in the way described by Bobbit. The opposite is true, there are more nation states now than ever before with strong pressure in some areas for more still.

            The entities you talk of do not exist as far as I can see. The EU is not a market state in the way described by Bobbitt as far as I can tell. I have to go on the reviews of others who tell me what the book is about and what it means.

                      I also consider Bobbitt’s view of the future to be nothing more than an attempt at cheerleading for the military industrial complex and some sort of justification for the USA’s aggression around the world.  The end state of Bobbitt’s theory has been described as amoral and presented by him as a natural progression and so has no real meaning.  That is why I used the term nihilistic. I disagree with his particular characterisation of the future (and the past and present too) as do many others but that is not to say that I do not recognise significant threats to democracy and security.  IMO the real threat to society comes from people who have had life experiences similar to his, and from people who think like him i.e.the real far right.

[Phil Dunphy]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I know that Boris but the demands on the Indy supporters for everything gets on my wick. I'm trying to establish what the No side consider when feeling British. 

 

No, you’re trying to belittle people who hold a different ideal to you. It’s pathetic. 

[ri Alban]

8 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

No, you’re trying to belittle people who hold a different ideal to you. It’s pathetic. 

He doesn't have to try. They do it all by themselves. Anybody who classes themselves as British before Scottish is a total £&@#, who needs a watching. 

[Phil Dunphy]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

He doesn't have to try. They do it all by themselves. Anybody who classes themselves as British before Scottish is a total £&@#, who needs a watching. 

 

To those of us who aren’t total mouth breathers, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. 

[jack D and coke]

26 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

No, you’re trying to belittle people who hold a different ideal to you. It’s pathetic. 

He’s not he’s a fair poster on the subject. Most people on here are. 

[redjambo]

Well it appears that Highlander's aim a month ago of reigniting the referendum debate on here has been highly successful.

[Phil Dunphy]

9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

He’s not he’s a fair poster on the subject. Most people on here are. 

 

Most 'fair' people don't feel the need to talk about how they're more Scottish than someone because of their political leanings.

[jack D and coke]

48 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

Most 'fair' people don't feel the need to talk about how they're more Scottish than someone because of their political leanings.

What’s your views on a united ireland?

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

5 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Yes, I did. Destroyed the fabric of GB. IMO. 

 

All infantile I expect? Trump doesn't speak ill of his independent country. 

 

You're having a bit of a mare mate. Take off the kilt, finish your haggis and dram and jump into bed. 

 

 

[Phil Dunphy]

7 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

What’s your views on a united ireland?

 

I don't particularly see how that's comparable.

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I don't particularly see how that's comparable.

It’s just a question and I’m assuming you have an opinion on it no? If there was ever a referendum on it what way would you vote and why? Supposing you were eligible to vote. 

[Phil Dunphy]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s just a question and I’m assuming you have an opinion on it no? If there was ever a referendum on it what way would you vote and why? Supposing you were eligible to vote. 

 

I'd vote against my country being absorbed into another one. And for the outcome that would produce the least possible bloodshed.

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I'd vote against my country being absorbed into another one. And for the outcome that would produce the least possible bloodshed.

Because you feel more British than Irish?

[Phil Dunphy]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Because you feel more British than Irish?

 

I'm not Irish, I'm from Northern Ireland.

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I'm not Irish, I'm from Northern Ireland.

But there’s people from NI who consider themselves irish why not you? 

[Phil Dunphy]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

But there’s people from NI who consider themselves irish why not you? 

 

You'd need to ask them. I'm no more Irish than I am Canadian.

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

You'd need to ask them. I'm no more Irish than I am Canadian.

Good deflection. 

You were born on the island of Ireland yes? In Northern Ireland or the North depending on what foot you kick with. Clearly you consider yourself British and in the event of a vote you’d vote to remain British. That’s fair enough. There could be no nonsense about NI not benefitting economically if it joined ROI as their economy is far better than most parts of the uk and NI is relatively poor, not poor but poorer in comparison. My point being is you, like people who vote for the status quo here consider themselves British first the same as you. That’s not a crime or anything to be ashamed of but it my take on it the thing too. You, and them are British first and Scottish second and maybe in your case not Irish at all. 

[Phil Dunphy]

11 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Good deflection. 

You were born on the island of Ireland yes? In Northern Ireland or the North depending on what foot you kick with. Clearly you consider yourself British and in the event of a vote you’d vote to remain British. That’s fair enough. There could be no nonsense about NI not benefitting economically if it joined ROI as their economy is far better than most parts of the uk and NI is relatively poor, not poor but poorer in comparison. My point being is you, like people who vote for the status quo here consider themselves British first the same as you. That’s not a crime or anything to be ashamed of but it my take on it the thing too. You, and them are British first and Scottish second and maybe in your case not Irish at all. 

 

I'm Northern Irish first, British 2nd and Irish not at all. No deflecting about that.

 

However this is all irrelevant, Roxys point was that someone who voted No is less Scottish than s/he is because s/he voted Yes. Which is nonsense.

[Brighton Jambo]

On a separate point I am wondering now if Brexit might actually harm the independence cause.  If, and I concede it’s a big if, a deal is struck that is almost palatable (fudged) and or the whole thing is kicked further down the line for years will the people of Scotland really have the appetite for more whole scale change.

 

 My gut instinct and I concede I am biased is that for lot of people a period of stability and normality will be much more preferable to more years of uncertainty and deal making which would result from an independence referdum/yes vote.  

[OTT]

Yes then, yes now. 

 

Fundamentally disagree being ruled by another country. This Brexit shambles highlights it, we're not 'equal partners', a Partnership to me implies parity and England is a significantly bigger country than Scotland so it would be wrong to English voters to have Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as equal partners as their own say would be worth much less. I think its in everyones interest for the political union to dissolve and some sort of special relationship be set up between the nations. I think Scotland is a very different country with a very different culture which needs to be able to properly implement policies which reflect that. I'd also like to see what a Scottish Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems party could offer when they're not implementing policies dictated to them by their English counterparts much like as Johann Lamont called it, a 'branch office'.

 

My patience with the SNP is running thin though, as I see things its a means to an end. Hypothetically, in a post indy Scotland I'd probably vote Lib dems - This is actually a question I'd love to ask folk. I think they have an awful lot of work to do to convince people that Independence is the way forward particularly as any financial talk is pure best guess and folk need more than that especially when such beliefs are so entrenched in peoples thinking. 

[JamboX2]

5 minutes ago, OTT said:

Yes then, yes now. 

 

Fundamentally disagree being ruled by another country. This Brexit shambles highlights it, we're not 'equal partners', a Partnership to me implies parity and England is a significantly bigger country than Scotland so it would be wrong to English voters to have Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as equal partners as their own say would be worth much less. I think its in everyones interest for the political union to dissolve and some sort of special relationship be set up between the nations. I think Scotland is a very different country with a very different culture which needs to be able to properly implement policies which reflect that. I'd also like to see what a Scottish Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems party could offer when they're not implementing policies dictated to them by their English counterparts much like as Johann Lamont called it, a 'branch office'.

 

My patience with the SNP is running thin though, as I see things its a means to an end. Hypothetically, in a post indy Scotland I'd probably vote Lib dems - This is actually a question I'd love to ask folk. I think they have an awful lot of work to do to convince people that Independence is the way forward particularly as any financial talk is pure best guess and folk need more than that especially when such beliefs are so entrenched in peoples thinking. 

 

Probably much the same as they are now on devolved issues. After all identifying as a Labour member or a Liberal is a political ideology. So if you think certain industries should be nationalised or that power is best exercised locally you won't change those views or policies post independence. 

 

It'll be a lot of tinkering at the edges frankly. The key one being the constitutional agenda evaporates. All the parties are pro-EU. All the parties are fairly centrist. Most are pro-NATO.

 

I don't think there'll be much of a change in what you'll be offered. 

[JamboX2]

34 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

On a separate point I am wondering now if Brexit might actually harm the independence cause.  If, and I concede it’s a big if, a deal is struck that is almost palatable (fudged) and or the whole thing is kicked further down the line for years will the people of Scotland really have the appetite for more whole scale change.

 

 My gut instinct and I concede I am biased is that for lot of people a period of stability and normality will be much more preferable to more years of uncertainty and deal making which would result from an independence referdum/yes vote.  

 

I think either outcome (no deal or deal) is not great for independence. One will result in the SNP needing to advocate why a hard border is palatable at Berwick and the other is why leaving to join the EU or EEA and adhering to the terms hat deal would be better than staying in the UK. 

 

In effect neither option is a eminently palatable. 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

 

You're having a bit of a mare mate. Take off the kilt, finish your haggis and dram and jump into bed. 

 

 

In your opinion... I've had a couple of glasses of Cotes du Rhone and I assume your a No voter and British/Scottish? 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I'm Northern Irish first, British 2nd and Irish not at all. No deflecting about that.

 

However this is all irrelevant, Roxys point was that someone who voted No is less Scottish than s/he is because s/he voted Yes. Which is nonsense.

I've stated an opinion and you are from the island if Ireland. Southern or Northern all just the same like the UK is one country for some. Let me say again, if you believe Westminster governance is more important than self governance for Scotland you must surely feel more British. 

[Phil Dunphy]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I've stated an opinion and you are from the island if Ireland. Southern or Northern all just the same like the UK is one country for some. Let me say again, if you believe Westminster governance is more important than self governance for Scotland you must surely feel more British. 

 

 

People seem to be obsessed with this 'island of Ireland' stance. That makes me as Irish as being from here makes you English.

 

You've stated your opinion, we know. And, as a couple of people have said now, that opinion is laughably childish.

 

"AHM MOAR SCOATTISH THAN YOO"

 

[Roxy Hearts]

3 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

 

People seem to be obsessed with this 'island of Ireland' stance. That makes me as Irish as being from here makes you English.

 

You've stated your opinion, we know. And, as a couple of people have said now, that opinion is laughably childish.

 

"AHM MOAR SCOATTISH THAN YOO"

 

I'm not obsessed by it as couldn't care less. But I'm childishly more Scottish than you. By the way I'm part Irish on my Dad's side. Great grandmother and grandfather born in Dublin. 

[Phil Dunphy]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm not obsessed by it as couldn't care less. But I'm childishly more Scottish than you. By the way I'm part Irish on my Dad's side. Great grandmother and grandfather born in Dublin. 

 

Couldn't care less, yet you brought it up? Ok then.

 

You're definitely more Scottish than me, because I'm not Scottish.

[SwindonJambo]

3 hours ago, redjambo said:

Well it appears that Highlander's aim a month ago of reigniting the referendum debate on here has been highly successful.

 

No argument there, I don’t think  

[Roxy Hearts]

28 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

Couldn't care less, yet you brought it up? Ok then.

 

You're definitely more Scottish than me, because I'm not Scottish.

I didn't bring up Ireland, you did. I wasn't aware you were from NI hence why I jokingly said I was more Scottish. 

[pablo]

7 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I didn't bring up Ireland, you did. I wasn't aware you were from NI hence why I jokingly said I was more Scottish. 

 

I'm not sure what nationality you are either, but I was born in Simpson's like most Edinburgh children of the 70s. What's obvious is this that you are a charmless individual, and timid. We Scots who contribute fiscally and culturally to your environment aren't quite ready to disown you yet though.  

[Roxy Hearts]

10 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

I'm not sure what nationality you are either, but I was born in Simpson's like most Edinburgh children of the 70s. What's obvious is this that you are a charmless individual, and timid. We Scots who contribute fiscally and culturally to your environment aren't quite ready to disown you yet though.  

I was born in the Eastern General in the 60's. I'm neither timid nor charmless, thanks! Married with kids and grandchildren with great friends of differing opinions. We all contribute to the UK pot and given our budget. Great! It's people like you that make me loath Westminster governance. 

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I'm Northern Irish first, British 2nd and Irish not at all. No deflecting about that.

 

However this is all irrelevant, Roxys point was that someone who voted No is less Scottish than s/he is because s/he voted Yes. Which is nonsense.

Sorry to break the bad news. You're no more British than you are Canadian. It's The United Kingdom of GB and NI. You're Irish, suck it up.

It's shite being British anyway, in an other couple of years like you, I won't be British 2nd either. 

 

8 hours ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

You'd need to ask them. I'm no more Irish than I am Canadian.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by ri Alban

[Phil Dunphy]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Sorry to break the bad news. You're no more British than you are Canadian. It's The United Kingdom of GB and NI. You're Irish, suck it up.

It's shite being British anyway, in an other couple of years like you, I won't be British 2nd either. 

 

 

 

I wasn’t born in Ireland. I’m about as Irish as you are English. 

[Boris]

13 hours ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I'd vote against my country being absorbed into another one. And for the outcome that would produce the least possible bloodshed.

 

Hi Phil,  interesting comment, and one I can appreciate.  Interesting in that I suspect that a lot of people who vote Yes would use the same reasoning for their stance.  Right or wrong, I think that some of those wishing independence do so because they have seen "their country" (Scotland) absorbed into another one (UK), and they simply want out of that.

 

All IMO, of course.

[Phil Dunphy]

13 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Hi Phil,  interesting comment, and one I can appreciate.  Interesting in that I suspect that a lot of people who vote Yes would use the same reasoning for their stance.  Right or wrong, I think that some of those wishing independence do so because they have seen "their country" (Scotland) absorbed into another one (UK), and they simply want out of that.

 

All IMO, of course.

 

That’s an interesting point. Although, whether Scotland was in the UK or not, it would continue as a country in its own right. 

 

A united Ireland would see my country cease to exist. I’d hope that people would see a clear difference between Scotland remaining in the UK and Northern Ireland becoming the R.O.I. 

[Boris]

21 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

That’s an interesting point. Although, whether Scotland was in the UK or not, it would continue as a country in its own right. 

 

A united Ireland would see my country cease to exist. I’d hope that people would see a clear difference between Scotland remaining in the UK and Northern Ireland becoming the R.O.I. 

 

A fair point, although (and I mean no disrespect) isn't there an argument that Ireland existed as one previously so the country would still exist?  I don't mean to go off at a tangent - Ireland and its history could be a thread of its own...

[Phil Dunphy]

28 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

A fair point, although (and I mean no disrespect) isn't there an argument that Ireland existed as one previously so the country would still exist?  I don't mean to go off at a tangent - Ireland and its history could be a thread of its own...

 

At the risk of following you off on this tangent, I don’t think you could say Northern Ireland would still exist. The places would still be there, but it wouldn’t be the same country. 

 

And it’s prettly likely that unifying Ireland would see a return of the violence and bloodshed that was far too common in the 70’s and 80’s. Far too many innocent lives have been lost for that cause and things, in my eyes, have no need to change as long as there is that threat hanging over people’s heads. 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

At the risk of following you off on this tangent, I don’t think you could say Northern Ireland would still exist. The places would still be there, but it wouldn’t be the same country. 

 

And it’s prettly likely that unifying Ireland would see a return of the violence and bloodshed that was far too common in the 70’s and 80’s. Far too many innocent lives have been lost for that cause and things, in my eyes, have no need to change as long as there is that threat hanging over people’s heads. 

It’s a moot point but I’m not sure ROI would neccessarily want to absorb NI anyway. It truly is a basket case of a region in more ways than one and I think the Irish are quite happy to let Britain deal with it and the loonies that inhabit the place. 

[Unknown user]

13 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Probably much the same as they are now on devolved issues. After all identifying as a Labour member or a Liberal is a political ideology. So if you think certain industries should be nationalised or that power is best exercised locally you won't change those views or policies post independence. 

 

It'll be a lot of tinkering at the edges frankly. The key one being the constitutional agenda evaporates. All the parties are pro-EU. All the parties are fairly centrist. Most are pro-NATO.

 

I don't think there'll be much of a change in what you'll be offered. 

I'm not so sure. Being labour has changed hugely in my lifetime, from mass workers' action against their employers to neo liberalism, to Corbyn's attempts to move back.

Depending on your actual ideaology you could have drifted in and out of labour's catchment pretty easily over the last few decades, so it's far too simplistic to say identifying as a labour member is a political ideaology when in truth it encompasses a wide range of often clashing viewpoints. 

Labour in Scotland has always had to think about the party line and electorate in the uk as a whole, I think they'd be a different beast if actually truly independent and only thinking about winning votes in Scotland.

[Phil Dunphy]

6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It’s a moot point but I’m not sure ROI would neccessarily want to absorb NI anyway. It truly is a basket case of a region in more ways than one and I think the Irish are quite happy to let Britain deal with it and the loonies that inhabit the place. 

 

Hasnt spent very much time in Northern Ireland type post. 

[jack D and coke]

9 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

Hasnt spent very much time in Northern Ireland type post. 

Been plenty in Ireland. Spent over 2 years working all over, Northern and republic. Just giving my opinion from speaking to people over there. 

[Phil Dunphy]

40 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Been plenty in Ireland. Spent over 2 years working all over, Northern and republic. Just giving my opinion from speaking to people over there. 

 

Then you’re speaking to the wrong people if you think the country is ‘full of loonies’. 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Phil Dunphy said:

 

Then you’re speaking to the wrong people if you think the country is ‘full of loonies’. 

But when I asked you a few posts back how you’d vote on the United ireland question you said you’d vote the way that would cause the least bloodshed! That seems you were admitting there is loonies there. Was there bloodshed here during our indyref despite people like yourself saying it’s all poison? Jim Murphy got hit with an egg whilst standing on a box and shouting like an arsehole in towns and sometimes people say bad words on twitter or FB yet to you that is poison?  

Listen it’s like anything the majority of people are sound, Protestant and Catholic but to say there isn’t a hard core of complete and utter lunatics is laughable man.

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

But when I asked you a few posts back how you’d vote on the United ireland question you said you’d vote the way that would cause the least bloodshed! That seems you were admitting there is loonies there. Was there bloodshed here during our indyref despite people like yourself saying it’s all poison? Jim Murphy got hit with an egg whilst standing on a box and shouting like an arsehole in towns and sometimes people say bad words on twitter or FB yet to you that is poison?  

Listen it’s like anything the majority of people are sound, Protestant and Catholic but to say there isn’t a hard core of complete and utter lunatics is laughable man.

 

You are also forgetting that a lot of the same "loonies" are also over here if you throw NI under a bus.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

I'm not so sure. Being labour has changed hugely in my lifetime, from mass workers' action against their employers to neo liberalism, to Corbyn's attempts to move back.

Depending on your actual ideaology you could have drifted in and out of labour's catchment pretty easily over the last few decades, so it's far too simplistic to say identifying as a labour member is a political ideaology when in truth it encompasses a wide range of often clashing viewpoints. 

Labour in Scotland has always had to think about the party line and electorate in the uk as a whole, I think they'd be a different beast if actually truly independent and only thinking about winning votes in Scotland.

 

But the Scottish electorate based on who it elects to govern and on social attitude surveys is in no hugely different place from the wider electorate.

 

The SNP are centrists by trade and not all that different from where the Labour moderates are. In fact there's more cross over in policy than not.

 

So where's this huge difference?

 

Policies designed by devolved parties already account for devolved powers and application to Scotland's needs. So I have never fully grasped this point. I think people aren't looking at this objectively.

 

I agree Labour have shifted. But it shifted with societal change. What's wrong with that? All parties do. The idea independence is transformative is a high hope. It will shift a centre of power to a another one. That is that. There is little to suggest a huge difference of opinion exists in how that power is exercised. 

 

In effect - if you are a centralizing socialist you will still be that with independence. If you advocate free schools you will still advocate free schools. 

 

A social democrat in Germany shares a lot of the same ideas beliefs and policy aims as one in Greece. Application may differ. But even then I think there won't be a huge departure on a lot of issues from now. The only substantive change is the lancing of the constitutional issue and a return to a wholly policy based debate. But that won't do much either as the main parties are broadly aligned.

[jack D and coke]

29 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You are also forgetting that a lot of the same "loonies" are also over here if you throw NI under a bus.

Frank I ain’t forgetting mate. I’m well aware they’re here. Still don’t recall anybody dying here or bombs going off, people getting shot over it. Do you? You can’t compare the lunatics in NI to here, here they’re just more often just mouthy bigoted arseholes whereas they’ll kill and maim over there. 

These people vote for the union come hell or high water cos they’re British first. Like a lot of unionists here.