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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?


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coconut doug
9 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

And that isn't going to be a cheap thing to do.

What is the price of a Central Bank? 

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SwindonJambo
17 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

I'm not so sure. People are generally speaking risk-averse when it comes to their salaries, pensions and property values.

 

An independent Scotland would have the start up costs, a huge budget deficit and an annual payback to the UK for our share of debt.

 

Then set up a central bank and launch a new currency in a bitterly divided country.

 

I guess if enough people have nothing left to lose, it could happen.

 

 

 

I am opposed for all the same reasons as you but I’m trying to be fair minded and even handed about it. I think there would be a lot of scope for negotiations on the debt share by, say, giving up our proportion of national assets, especially overseas territories. We may even be able to do so on a ‘call if quits’ basis I.e. let rUK have all shared assets in exchange for walking away with no debt. But we would be left with a structural deficit of some sort and cuts would be needed to address it, in the early years of the independence. An unaddressed large deficit would simply mean that Scotland would   build up a fresh debt, compromising its creditworthiness. The early years would be very tough and no walk in the park, before levelling out later, which I believe they would ,but tough leadership would be needed and unpopular decisions made..

 

Most people are risk averse, especially when they get older and depend on the security of their pensions. The country would be very bitterly divided I agree and the first and most important job of any post independence government would be to get disgruntled No supporters on board to get behind the new state. It’s not like waking up in the aftermath of a Cup Final Win v Hibs and gloating. It’s a serious business which would need serious heads to put their differences aside and work together for the common good.  No supporters tend to be older and wealthier and if they’re not confident of the new state, they can very easily up sticks and move out with little difficulty, which would be disastrous if enough of them do so.

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Jambo-Jimbo
18 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

What is the price of a Central Bank? 

 

According to 'The National' a SMI (Scottish Monetary Institute) which is more limited than a central bank would cost £77.6m to initially set up, this was on the premise that there would be a monetary union with the Bank of England, that would look unlikely now given that at the recent SNP conference there was a vote for Scotland to have a completely new Scottish currency.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/15631730.an-independent-scotland-could-set-up-a-central-bank-that-would-pay-for-itself/

 

So the setting up of a central bank would cost a lot more than the above figure which is also over 2 years old, you also have the problem that a completely new Scottish currency issued by a new Scottish Central Bank would need to be guaranteed probably by the Scottish Government that the amount printed on the note is not only worth that amount of money but that the Scottish Central bank has enough liquidity to cover that amount by the assets which the new Scottish Central Bank would hold.

Edited by Jambo-Jimbo
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16 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Scotland has no budget deficit. Scotland may well inherit some of the national debt but we would also have to acquire a proportionate amount of assets making us no better or worse off than the UK generally. The debt of course is not accrued by Scotland and so Scotland would have no legal obligation to pay it. That is the privilege of the continuing state apparently.

 

New currencies have been launched before without crippling the countries that did it and it goes without saying that there will be start up costs but these will be partially offset at least by our no longer having to contribute to a massive, moribund government monolith perhaps best exemplified by the House of Lords.

 

We need a new central bank anyway the current one serves the interests of capital and not the country.

 

If people do not want to accept an independent Scotland that is their problem. they could of course migrate to rUk if the meet the entry requirements of that country post Brexit. 

 

 

It's like your growth commission report never happened :notsure:

 

 

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Pans Jambo
8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

This thing about Scottish notes not being accepted down south is easily rectified.  Take money out an English Bank's cashline machine or just pay by card.  I have only ever had a note rejected once in England and that was Manchester Piccadilly station getting something to eat for the train home last year. I have been to many places down south frequently.

 

Its not unionists changing their tune, its the SNP shooting itself in both feet.

 

 

Working quite a lot in Birmingham recently & I can tell you Scottish notes are not welcome. 

SNP’s fault? How? Scottish notes have been unwelcome down there long before the Scottish Parliment even opened for business 20 years ago. 

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frankblack
3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Working quite a lot in Birmingham recently & I can tell you Scottish notes are not welcome. 

SNP’s fault? How? Scottish notes have been unwelcome down there long before the Scottish Parliment even opened for business 20 years ago. 

 

There were two different things in the thread you replied to.

 

I was referring to the conference overruling the leadership to vote for a Scottish currency as shooting itself in both feet.  Just read the replies above to see how easy it will be for the other parties to do serious damage campaigning against any Indy Ref 2 vote if one ever happens.

 

The Scottish notes thing wasn't directed at the SNP at all.

Edited by frankblack
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coconut doug
58 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

We have seen the pound devalued by the complete shambles at Westminster, and the remoaners non-stop scaremongering.  That should have been over a long time ago yet the stalemate at Westminster and failure to negotiate a deal is prolonging problems.  The tories should have fired TM after the last General Election but she stayed and made things even worse.

The devaluation of the pound was an immediate and obvious consequence of the Brexit vote. The shambles at Westminster to which you refer is of course real but is also constant. Westminster didn't suddenly become a shambles after the Brexit vote. We are and have been for some considerable time governed by idiots and self serving chancers in the main.

58 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I think leaving the UK wil devalue any Scottish currency far more than the UK leaving the EU.  Scotland would have to set up a hard border with all the controls Ireland is trying to avoid along a very large border.

 

What evidence do you have to support your view? Where is this very large border? Don't you think Scotland could benefit by being the largest English speaking EU member? would companies not want to come here to facilitate their trading with the EU, a bit like Ireland.

 

As pointed out above a Scottish currency would have no credit worthiness and be managing a huge budget deficit and imminent inflation problems.

 

Why would a Scottish currency have no credit worthiness? Is it not true that the value of goods and services we produce is higher than most EU countries and in particular RUK?

 

London isn't a country, so your analogy is flawed.

 

My analogy is enhanced i.e. the inequality of which you consider being a natural consequence of Indy already exists to a greater degree within the u.k than in any other developed country

 

Lack of credit worthiness, budget deficit, and inherited share of UK national debt to pay off.

 

See above

 

The pound is a long established currency guaranteed by the Bank of England.

 

In what way does the Bank of England guarantee the pound? I think they no longer promise to pay the bearer anything. It would be good to know whether the Bank of England is a private company like the Federal reserve or whether it is underwritten by the state. I suspect that it may be about privatised profits and socialised losses, in any case the role of the B of E in the UK's economy is vastly open to question at the very least.

 

Who is Scotland's central bank and how has their financial security been?  My guess is RBS would be your suggestion, but that is still owned by the UK government.

 

Scotland does not have a central bank and RBS is a clearing bank and so a totally different entity. you seem to think it has though so perhaps you could tell me who they are and how their financial security has been.

Nope.

I'm afraid that the imbalance in our economy is desperately bad and that our reliance on financial services and other footloose industries has left us exposed to exploitation.

 

I don't disagree here.  Tax avoidance and evasion needs to be stamped out, but there is a lack of political will from any party to do anything serious about it.

 

 

Just ask Greece and Italy why the Euro has been so good for them.

  I'm not advocating the Euro and neither are the SNP It's a separate Scottish currency we are talking about. 

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Pans Jambo
1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

There were two different things in the thread you replied to.

 

I was referring to the conference overruling the leadership to vote for a Scottish currency as shooting itself in both feet.  Just read the replies above to see how easy it will be for the other parties to do serious damage campaigning against any Indy Ref 2 vote if one ever happens.

 

The Scottish notes thing wasn't directed at the SNP at all.

Ok

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SwindonJambo
7 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Working quite a lot in Birmingham recently & I can tell you Scottish notes are not welcome. 

SNP’s fault? How? Scottish notes have been unwelcome down there long before the Scottish Parliment even opened for business 20 years ago. 

 

Agreed. It’s been the case for decades. Contactless payments and cards help a lot to deal with that problem. 

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frankblack
2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

The devaluation of the pound was an immediate and obvious consequence of the Brexit vote. The shambles at Westminster to which you refer is of course real but is also constant. Westminster didn't suddenly become a shambles after the Brexit vote. We are and have been for some considerable time governed by idiots and self serving chancers in the main.

  I'm not advocating the Euro and neither are the SNP It's a separate Scottish currency we are talking about. 

 

Not really, others have answered that point above.  The pound was overvalued and an adjustment was due.

 

You need to address the issues discussed above about setting up a central bank that can cover the national debt and any crisis situation.  Essentially you need to replicate the Bank of England.

 

All the signs point to a Scottish currency starting life considerably weaker than its cousin down south, and you need to explain why voters will accept being worse off to vote for it.

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Pans Jambo
10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Not really, others have answered that point above.  The pound was overvalued and an adjustment was due.

 

You need to address the issues discussed above about setting up a central bank that can cover the national debt and any crisis situation.  Essentially you need to replicate the Bank of England.

 

All the signs point to a Scottish currency starting life considerably weaker than its cousin down south, and you need to explain why voters will accept being worse off to vote for it.

Just asking but how did every other country that left Britain behind do it? And were they as “first country” as Scotland with as much resources and potential? As I said, just asking?

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frankblack
6 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Just asking but how did every other country that left Britain behind do it? And were they as “first country” as Scotland with as much resources and potential? As I said, just asking?

 

Do you have a comparable example?  Former colonies on the other side of the world are completely different from ourselves, who have a land border and 300 years of legal, financial, and political integration.

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coconut doug
20 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

According to 'The National' a SMI (Scottish Monetary Institute) which is more limited than a central bank would cost £77.6m to initially set up, this was on the premise that there would be a monetary union with the Bank of England, that would look unlikely now given that at the recent SNP conference there was a vote for Scotland to have a completely new Scottish currency.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/15631730.an-independent-scotland-could-set-up-a-central-bank-that-would-pay-for-itself/

 

So the setting up of a central bank would cost a lot more than the above figure which is also over 2 years old, you also have the problem that a completely new Scottish currency issued by a new Scottish Central Bank would need to be guaranteed probably by the Scottish Government that the amount printed on the note is not only worth that amount of money but that the Scottish Central bank has enough liquidity to cover that amount by the assets which the new Scottish Central Bank would hold.

Well of course the bank would have to work, you cant have a bank that reneges on it's obligations. I'm intrigued as to what you mean by "that the amount printed on the note is not only worth that amount of money but that the Scottish Central bank has enough liquidity to cover that amount by the assets which the new Scottish Central Bank would hold." Isn't the potential problem the exchange rate and isnt it the case that should a Scottish currency or any other currency fail then the value of that currency in relation to other currencies is the key. The failing currency has no intrinsic value it is merely a promissory note to pay in one currency that may well become worthless i.e. Zimbabwe, inter war Germany. No currency is backed by gold anymore and no country as far as i am aware backs the entirety of its currency with national assets. What we have now is huge amounts of money being printed by almost all currency providers supporting each other because they are all unsecured and weak.

 

The cost seems cheap. For that kind of money in Edinburgh you could acquire 1/6th of a parliament building or less than a mile of Edinburgh's tram network.

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Jambo-Jimbo
3 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Well of course the bank would have to work, you cant have a bank that reneges on it's obligations. I'm intrigued as to what you mean by "that the amount printed on the note is not only worth that amount of money but that the Scottish Central bank has enough liquidity to cover that amount by the assets which the new Scottish Central Bank would hold." Isn't the potential problem the exchange rate and isnt it the case that should a Scottish currency or any other currency fail then the value of that currency in relation to other currencies is the key. The failing currency has no intrinsic value it is merely a promissory note to pay in one currency that may well become worthless i.e. Zimbabwe, inter war Germany. No currency is backed by gold anymore and no country as far as i am aware backs the entirety of its currency with national assets. What we have now is huge amounts of money being printed by almost all currency providers supporting each other because they are all unsecured and weak.

 

The cost seems cheap. For that kind of money in Edinburgh you could acquire 1/6th of a parliament building or less than a mile of Edinburgh's tram network.

 

I think you've answered your own question in relation to the strength of the currency being dependant upon it's value in relation to other currencies.

Inflation also has a major impact does it not, in asmuch as the higher the rate of inflation the less value the currency has and is then worth less on the currency markets and thus creates more inflation and round and round we go.

 

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Class of 75
6 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

If the SNP took this currency into an Indy vote it would be ripped to shreds.

Rightly so. Cloud cuckoo land again from the Nats 

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Pans Jambo
53 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Do you have a comparable example?  Former colonies on the other side of the world are completely different from ourselves, who have a land border and 300 years of legal, financial, and political integration.

We do but we also have our own laws, education system and a ready made parliment. The rest is a divorce negotiation. 

Seems to me the only concern is some sort of central bank. I dont have the answers but I know the Scotgov are currently setting up an investment bank & a central bank may take a few years but I dont think its beyond a country of our ilk to create one. An indy Scotland in the EU (if we chose to rejoin) would surely have huge investment potential. First world, infrastructure, English speaking, EU member etc. 

 

Funny folk dont seem overly concerned that the UK pays billions in interest payments to service a debt of Trillions whilst leaving the largest trading bloc in the world with many companies jumping ship unyet the current lack of a Scottish Central bank is a great worry. 

 

As I said, I dont have the answers but I know the union is a busted flush and wont ever be repaired by Westminster. Its done!

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Pans Jambo
1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

Rightly so. Cloud cuckoo land again from the Nats 

Why?

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AlphonseCapone
2 hours ago, JackLadd said:

Greece unemployment 18%. Scotland 3.5%.

 

Tell me the benefits of life on the EU fringes again. What has Brussels done for them?

 

Ah selective choosing. Excellent way to argue. 

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Class of 75
1 minute ago, Pans Jambo said:

Why?

Becsuse the Bank of England will not permit Scotland to use Sterling and the setting up of any independent Scottish Bank will cost millions. A new Scottish currency will be worth next to nothing as there will be nothing to back it up with the country running a fiscal defecit. Remember also that Scotland if independent, would be required to take its share of the UK national debt. Scotland would end up a third world country just so a few could exercise their 'dream' of independence. 

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Unknown user
3 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Becsuse the Bank of England will not permit Scotland to use Sterling and the setting up of any independent Scottish Bank will cost millions. A new Scottish currency will be worth next to nothing as there will be nothing to back it up with the country running a fiscal defecit. Remember also that Scotland if independent, would be required to take its share of the UK national debt. Scotland would end up a third world country just so a few could exercise their 'dream' of independence. 

The bank of England can't stop Scotland using sterling. 

Isn't the UK running a fiscal deficit by the way? Sterling's a fiat currency, so only backed by the economy, is it worthless like the Scottish currency would be?

 

Edited by Smithee
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Class of 75
5 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Ah selective choosing. Excellent way to argue. 

However, that is Scotland and as part of the UK. If independent we would be worse than Greece. The only reason the SNP wants to pursue EU membership as they know that they will bail there out financially. Countries such as Greece receive these handouts and Scotland would be no different. 

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Class of 75
4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The bank of England can't stop Scotland using sterling. 

Yes they can. It is the UK currency. Places such as Gibraltar have agreements to use it. The Bank of England would and should prevent Scotland from using it. Without their approval currency would be worthless. The Central Bank would be based in London therefore not fiscal independence. If you don't believe me google it. 

Edited by Class of 75
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Unknown user
Just now, Class of 75 said:

Yes they can. It is the UK currency. Places such as Gibraltar have agreements to use it. The Bank of England would and should prevent Scotland from using it. Without their approval currency would be worthless. 

They don't own the money mate, it's out there circulating and out of their control. I edited my post by the way, I'll paste the extra here for your attention

 

Isn't the UK running a fiscal deficit by the way? Sterling's a fiat currency, so only backed by the economy, is it worthless like the Scottish currency would be?

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coconut doug
30 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Not really, others have answered that point above.  The pound was overvalued and an adjustment was due.

 

You need to address the issues discussed above about setting up a central bank that can cover the national debt and any crisis situation.  Essentially you need to replicate the Bank of England.

 

All the signs point to a Scottish currency starting life considerably weaker than its cousin down south, and you need to explain why voters will accept being worse off to vote for it.

So you and others are claiming that sterling was overvalued by 20%. How and why did this come about. Did the Bank of England not know. Were market forces not working? Were speculators not aware? 

 

 The same source says the pound might be undervalued now or overvalued. It''s rubbish, the value of the pound is what people were prepared to pay for it. there is no such thing as an real or even an optimal value. How do they know what the real value is?

 

Central banks do not cover national debts. Debts are managed. 

 

The last thing we need to do is replicate the Bank of England. We do not need or want an organisation that works with clearing banks, shady financiers and the like to rip off the taxpayer. The margins taken by these organisations are massive and actually inhibit the competitiveness and diversity of the British economy not least in restricting the buying power of the public.

 

I don't know what signs you are seeing regarding the weakness or otherwise of a Scottish currency but what i do know is that if we can set up a bank that responds to the needs of the population rather than a tax dodging elite we can free ourselves from usury such as pfi and keep interest rates down. 

 

BTW Scotland does not have national debt

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Class of 75
Just now, Smithee said:

They don't own the money mate, it's out there circulating and out of their control. I edited my post by the way, I'll paste the extra here for your attention

 

Isn't the UK running a fiscal deficit by the way? Sterling's a fiat currency, so only backed by the economy, is it worthless like the Scottish currency would be?

Yes but you need a bank to set the rates and produce more currency thereby providing a back up to your money. Without it you would be stagnant 

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Pans Jambo
1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

Becsuse the Bank of England will not permit Scotland to use Sterling and the setting up of any independent Scottish Bank will cost millions. A new Scottish currency will be worth next to nothing as there will be nothing to back it up with the country running a fiscal defecit. Remember also that Scotland if independent, would be required to take its share of the UK national debt. Scotland would end up a third world country just so a few could exercise their 'dream' of independence. 

Zimbabwe could use sterling if it wanted! Any country can. Thats been discussed since before 2014 and been admitted to by the NO lot. 

Millions to set up a bank. So? The UK already runs a fiscal deficit. Most countries do these days. 

Third world country is a bit of a stretch. Why would that happen? Would there not be huge investment opportunities in a newly indy Scotland? Would some businesses consider moving from other parts of the UK to allow them to remain in the UK?

’Dream’? Its just ‘normal’ to run your own country. Theres hundreds of independent countries!

Its just the same negativity as the last time round from the union support. I just dont understand why unionists cant look at whats happened the last 3-4 years and see Westminster does not have Scotlands best interests at heart. 

 

 

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Unknown user
7 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Yes but you need a bank to set the rates and produce more currency thereby providing a back up to your money. Without it you would be stagnant 

The point is that the bank of England can't stop Scotland using sterling. 

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Class of 75
2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Zimbabwe could use sterling if it wanted! Any country can. Thats been discussed since before 2014 and been admitted to by the NO lot. 

Millions to set up a bank. So? The UK already runs a fiscal deficit. Most countries do these days. 

Third world country is a bit of a stretch. Why would that happen? Would there not be huge investment opportunities in a newly indy Scotland? Would some businesses consider moving from other parts of the UK to allow them to remain in the UK?

’Dream’? Its just ‘normal’ to run your own country. Theres hundreds of independent countries!

Its just the same negativity as the last time round from the union support. I just dont understand why unionists cant look at whats happened the last 3-4 years and see Westminster does not have Scotlands best interests at heart. 

 

 

You are right any country could use Sterling but without the agreement of the Bank of England and the setting up of an HQ in Harire the economy would stagnate. They would not have financial independence and so would be pointless. In terms of investment why would UK companies spend millions moving from settled places down south to come up here? The currency would be a mess and as no Sterling adopted would cost them millions again in trade to transfer between the Groat and Sterling.  There is no negativity, I just don't see why those wanting Independence want to swap a government in Edinburgh and London and being part of the UK to being ruled by Brussels. I think there is more to it than that to honest 

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I think you've answered your own question in relation to the strength of the currency being dependant upon it's value in relation to other currencies.

Inflation also has a major impact does it not, in asmuch as the higher the rate of inflation the less value the currency has and is then worth less on the currency markets and thus creates more inflation and round and round we go.

 

I might be answering my own question but i think i did so  because you offered a different interpretation which seemed to contradict what you are saying now.

The trouble with your inflation argument is that all currencies are deliberately printing huge amounts of money to support speculative lending and are all potentially very weak but the widespread weakness allows the relationships to remain broadly stable. We are in danger of repeating on a bigger scale the events of 2007/8. What price then a new currency backed by natural resources and free from widespread debt defaulters?

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coconut doug
2 hours ago, pablo said:

 

It's like your growth commission report never happened :notsure:

 

 

I don't have a growth commission. If you think my points are not serious why don't you explain why?

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2 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

You are right any country could use Sterling but without the agreement of the Bank of England and the setting up of an HQ in Harire the economy would stagnate. They would not have financial independence and so would be pointless. In terms of investment why would UK companies spend millions moving from settled places down south to come up here? The currency would be a mess and as no Sterling adopted would cost them millions again in trade to transfer between the Groat and Sterling.  There is no negativity, I just don't see why those wanting Independence want to swap a government in Edinburgh and London and being part of the UK to being ruled by Brussels. I think there is more to it than that to honest 

 

 

Who is ruled by Brussels?

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Class of 75
2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The point is that the bank of England can't stop Scotland using sterling. 

Scotland wouldn't get anywhere though. Who would print more Sterling when required? How would you stop inflation? You need a central bank and if that is the Bank of England you do not have fiscal independence. This was the issue in 2014 and will be again. 

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Unknown user
4 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Scotland wouldn't get anywhere though. Who would print more Sterling when required? How would you stop inflation? You need a central bank and if that is the Bank of England you do not have fiscal independence. This was the issue in 2014 and will be again. 

Those are separate arguments though, you said "the Bank of England will not permit Scotland to use Sterling" - it's just not true, it's not possible. 

 

It's also not true to say that a Scottish currency would be worthless because it would be backed by an economy running a fiscal deficit - this perfectly describes sterling, yet that has value. 

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AlphonseCapone
29 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

However, that is Scotland and as part of the UK. If independent we would be worse than Greece. The only reason the SNP wants to pursue EU membership as they know that they will bail there out financially. Countries such as Greece receive these handouts and Scotland would be no different. 

 

Why would Scotland be Greece? 

 

Also I thought unionists stopped the Scotland couldn't be independent chat because it was acknowledged how stupid an argument it was?

Edited by AlphonseCapone
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Pans Jambo
8 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

You are right any country could use Sterling but without the agreement of the Bank of England and the setting up of an HQ in Harire the economy would stagnate. They would not have financial independence and so would be pointless. In terms of investment why would UK companies spend millions moving from settled places down south to come up here? The currency would be a mess and as no Sterling adopted would cost them millions again in trade to transfer between the Groat and Sterling.  There is no negativity, I just don't see why those wanting Independence want to swap a government in Edinburgh and London and being part of the UK to being ruled by Brussels. I think there is more to it than that to honest 

Same shit different day. 

This is a waste of time so I will save you the trouble. 

Folk who want Scotland to take care of their own affairs are dreamers. 

Scotland is too wee & poor. 

Nobody would want to invest in Scotland. 

EU wont have us (& Why would they). 

Any form of a Scottish currency is doomed before its even given a name. 

 

The trouble is, thats all shite & the unionists know it. 

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9 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

I don't have a growth commission. If you think my points are not serious why don't you explain why?

 

Your party set up a Growth Commission to look at Scotland's economy and what opportunity and risk the country would face if independent. Your party didn't like the findings,  so have spent the last year ignoring it. Your post contradicted some of it's key points. You'll need to dust it off if you ever start campaigning officially, rather than the campaign you've ran every day since 2014 without making much headway. 

 

 

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Class of 75
6 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Same shit different day. 

This is a waste of time so I will save you the trouble. 

Folk who want Scotland to take care of their own affairs are dreamers. 

Scotland is too wee & poor. 

Nobody would want to invest in Scotland. 

EU wont have us (& Why would they). 

Any form of a Scottish currency is doomed before its even given a name. 

 

The trouble is, thats all shite & the unionists know it. 

Each to their own. I could say the converse regarding the nonsense published by those in favour of independence 

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Pans Jambo
1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

Each to their own. I could say the converse regarding the nonsense published by those in favour of independence 

Just swap it round then. Give us the positives in staying in this union any longer!

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Class of 75
14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Those are separate arguments though, you said "the Bank of England will not permit Scotland to use Sterling" - it's just not true, it's not possible. 

 

It's also not true to say that a Scottish currency would be worthless because it would be backed by an economy running a fiscal deficit - this perfectly describes sterling, yet that has value. 

The Bank of England could if they wished stop Scotland using Sterling. However, to save them the trouble they just have to refuse to back it up. Why would they put an HQ in a separate country? That would mean Scotland would have to produce their own currency backed by their own central bank. The difference here is that Sterling has hundreds of years of history to back it up. 

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coconut doug
2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Your party set up a Growth Commission to look at Scotland's economy and what opportunity and risk the country would face if independent. Your party didn't like the findings,  so have spent the last year ignoring it. Your post contradicted some of it's key points. You'll need to dust it off if you ever start campaigning officially, rather than the campaign you've ran every day since 2014 without making much headway. 

 

 

Not my party. I'm not and never have been a member of the SNP. I'm not running any campaign and i'm perfectly entitled to contradict some of the key points of the growth commission. 

 I notice that you still haven't told me which of my views you disagree with.

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Jambo-Jimbo
31 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

I might be answering my own question but i think i did so  because you offered a different interpretation which seemed to contradict what you are saying now.

The trouble with your inflation argument is that all currencies are deliberately printing huge amounts of money to support speculative lending and are all potentially very weak but the widespread weakness allows the relationships to remain broadly stable. We are in danger of repeating on a bigger scale the events of 2007/8. What price then a new currency backed by natural resources and free from widespread debt defaulters?

 

Well we can agree on one thing, and that is when it all goes pop, this crash will make the 2008 one look like a sunday school party.

 

Re: Pound being overvalued.

Not me or others claiming it was overvalued, that was the claim being made by the IMF as per the link I posted.

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55 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Becsuse the Bank of England will not permit Scotland to use Sterling and the setting up of any independent Scottish Bank will cost millions. A new Scottish currency will be worth next to nothing as there will be nothing to back it up with the country running a fiscal defecit. Remember also that Scotland if independent, would be required to take its share of the UK national debt. Scotland would end up a third world country just so a few could exercise their 'dream' of independence. 

Nonsense.

 

Any country could use sterling if it so desired. The BoE can’t prevent that. 

 

Regards share are of UK debt, equally we would be entitled to our share of the assets. Part of which would be our share of the nuclear deterrent. How much is that worth? 

 

A third world country? Really? I get you don’t fancy independence but comments like that do your argument no good. Or should we just be thankful that we aren’t living in mud huts, with no clean water or electricity?

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Unknown user
27 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

The Bank of England could if they wished stop Scotland using Sterling. However, to save them the trouble they just have to refuse to back it up. Why would they put an HQ in a separate country? That would mean Scotland would have to produce their own currency backed by their own central bank. The difference here is that Sterling has hundreds of years of history to back it up. 

Bollocks

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frankblack
1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

So you and others are claiming that sterling was overvalued by 20%. How and why did this come about. Did the Bank of England not know. Were market forces not working? Were speculators not aware? 

 

 The same source says the pound might be undervalued now or overvalued. It''s rubbish, the value of the pound is what people were prepared to pay for it. there is no such thing as an real or even an optimal value. How do they know what the real value is?

 

Central banks do not cover national debts. Debts are managed. 

 

The last thing we need to do is replicate the Bank of England. We do not need or want an organisation that works with clearing banks, shady financiers and the like to rip off the taxpayer. The margins taken by these organisations are massive and actually inhibit the competitiveness and diversity of the British economy not least in restricting the buying power of the public.

 

I don't know what signs you are seeing regarding the weakness or otherwise of a Scottish currency but what i do know is that if we can set up a bank that responds to the needs of the population rather than a tax dodging elite we can free ourselves from usury such as pfi and keep interest rates down. 

 

BTW Scotland does not have national debt

 

You seem to have some trouble understanding  the role of the central bank, such as lender of last resort.

 

A quick Google search would have helped you:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_bank

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On 18/09/2018 at 21:24, superjack said:

If there was a second vote and the country voted yes, would it be seen as 1 each and have a deciding vote for the beat of three?

If the country voted no again, would the "45" be demanding another vote?

My personnel opinion is that we already voted so we shouldn't have another 1 so soon.

By the way, I would vote no again. 

How many times has Theresa May tried to get her Brexit deal  approved by the UK Parliament?

Edited by wavydavy
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Pasquale for King
1 hour ago, Class of 75 said:

Scotland wouldn't get anywhere though. Who would print more Sterling when required? How would you stop inflation? You need a central bank and if that is the Bank of England you do not have fiscal independence. This was the issue in 2014 and will be again. 

It would only be for three years until a central bank would be set up.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/8911/new-report-scottish-currency-options-post-brexit 

Even David Cameron agreed Scotland can be an Independent country, estimates show we would be the 14th richest country in the world.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26614122

Edited by Pasquale for King
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frankblack
14 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

It would only be for three years until a central bank would be set up.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/8911/new-report-scottish-currency-options-post-brexit 

Even David Cameron agreed Scotland can be an Independent country, estimates show we would be the 14th richest country in the world.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26614122

 

:rofl:

David Cameron's judgement is hardly something to use to support your case, and neither do your other links, one of which is from what appears to be an indy blogger.

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coconut doug
39 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You seem to have some trouble understanding  the role of the central bank, such as lender of last resort.

 

A quick Google search would have helped you:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_bank

I don't think so. I think it is you that doesn't understand. I've read some of your link and stand by what i have said.

 

Just to remind you here is what you said "You need to address the issues discussed above about setting up a central bank that can cover the national debt and any crisis situation" my response to that was "Central banks do not cover national debts. Debts are managed." There is nothing in your link that refutes the point i made as far as i can see but if there is i will be happy to admit that i did not understand the role of central banks.  

   You seemed to think i did not understand what lender of last resort means. Of course i did that's why i refuted your notion that the RBS could be Scotland's central bank. 

 

 After having read your own link, do you still think "Central banks cover the national debt"? 

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Well we can agree on one thing, and that is when it all goes pop, this crash will make the 2008 one look like a sunday school party.

 

Re: Pound being overvalued.

Not me or others claiming it was overvalued, that was the claim being made by the IMF as per the link I posted.

It's funny they never noticed it at the time. Were they not paying attention? Maybe it was just a story designed to prevent a run on the pound. seriously do you honestly believe the pound was overvalued by as much as 20% and nobody in the financial world spotted it until afterwards? Are these people not paid extremely well for their financial acumen? 

   Do you not think that the devaluation of the pound immediately after the Brexit vote was a consequence of the vote? Maybe you think that the hedge fund managers who made billions on the drop in the pound's value just got lucky? 

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Where is the SNP's independently costed case for overturning the No thanks vote in 2014 that remotely says Scotland could retain the same levels of public expenditure, taxation, employment and look after all the necessary start up costs of independence? Brent Crude is $70 a barrel today, the White Fantasy Paper in 2014 costed it at $114. If enough dunderheeds had voted aye 5 years ago what would have filled the £15bn per year hole in their budgeting forecast? Don't vote with your head seems to be the only message they have. 

Edited by JackLadd
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