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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

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dobmisterdobster
2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Not particularly, to be honest.

You're right. I'm sure they would be fine with a do-over referendum if the Yes side won. 😆😆

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Justin Z
11 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

You're right. I'm sure they would be fine with a do-over referendum if the Yes side won. 😆😆

 

Calling a confirmatory referendum a "do-over" referendum is really pretty silly.

 

If the original question were structured in such a way as to make a second referendum an actual do-over, an exercise in political tactics, they'd be justified in objecting. I don't see them complaining if the original referendum were laid out similarly to Brexit and the final deal would need democratic confirmation to go forward, just as Brexit was, legally speaking, since it was advisory.

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Justin Z

That said, seeing as Brexit apparently doesn't need one, I could also see them responding "one rule for me, and one for thee?" which would also be fair, hardly the stuff of tantrums.

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ri Alban
Posted (edited)

SNP2 coming soon. A second pro indy party being set up to take the regional vote. 960,000 second votes gave the SNP 5 extra seats, while 1.08m votes combined, gave the Tories, Labour and the Libdems 45 extra seats.

Remember when the voting system was supposed to stop Majority Governments.

 

 

Not before time. Game over!

Edited by ri Alban

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ri Alban
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

SNP2 coming soon. A second pro indy party being set up to take the regional vote. 960,000 second votes gave the SNP 4 extra seats, while 1.08m votes combined, gave the Tories, Labour and the Libdems 46 extra seats.

Remember when the voting system was supposed to stop Majority Governments.

 

 

Not before time. Game over!

Edit.

Edited by ri Alban

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frankblack
2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Edit.

 

:rofl:

 

If you do that you will dilute your own vote.

 

Tactical voting will be evident next Holyrood elections to remove the Nationalist majority which the Greens are propping you up with. 👍

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Boris
26 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Tactical voting will be evident next Holyrood elections to remove the Nationalist majority which the Greens are propping you up with. 👍

 

You think?

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XB52
11 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

The fact is that it showed the SNP's plans for independence were written on the back of a fag packet, and the Scottish oil industry has never recovered.

???? Your post makes no sense. You are now blaming the snp for the oil industry collapsing???? It hasn't and what has the oil.price got to do with the SNP??  We get it, you are a unionist and don't want independence but try and stick to reality instead of making rubbish up. You know like, honest I voted snp/yes

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Boris
58 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Tactical voting will be evident next Holyrood elections to remove the Nationalist majority which the Greens are propping you up with. 👍

 

Greens propping up a nationalist majority?  Don't you mean that Scotland has elected a pro-independence majority? 

 

Surely the opposite of that is a majority unionist parliament made up of much more minority parties? 

 

The SNP would still be the largest party and therefore would try to run a minority government?

 

Only polls, but suggests more of the same.

 

http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/polls/scottish-parliament

 

 

 

 

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Pans Jambo
12 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

The infamous White Paper if not lies was a complete work of fiction that fell down within months as the oil price crashed.

If it was a "lie" when the oil price "crashed"...

 

Was it then true when it "recovered"?

 

How come oil benefits 60+ Million UK folk but is BAAAAAD for 5+ million Scots?

 

I never could work that one out.

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Pans Jambo
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

:rofl:

 

If you do that you will dilute your own vote.

 

Tactical voting will be evident next Holyrood elections to remove the Nationalist majority which the Greens are propping you up with. 👍

They can be as tactical as they like but the unionist vote will be what??? 40% at the Holyrood elections?

 

Labour is finished and nobody up here voted tory. most of their MSP's got in on the list vote. Useless.

 

Youre clutching at straws. It'll be an SNP whitewash, the unionists will be ragdolled aboot the place and whats more...YOU KNOW IT!

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frankblack
3 hours ago, XB52 said:

???? Your post makes no sense. You are now blaming the snp for the oil industry collapsing???? It hasn't and what has the oil.price got to do with the SNP??  We get it, you are a unionist and don't want independence but try and stick to reality instead of making rubbish up. You know like, honest I voted snp/yes

 

Try learning to read before replying with an incoherent rant.  That isn't what I said at all.

 

3 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

If it was a "lie" when the oil price "crashed"...

 

Was it then true when it "recovered"?

 

How come oil benefits 60+ Million UK folk but is BAAAAAD for 5+ million Scots?

 

I never could work that one out.

 

The oil industry in Scotland has not recovered to pre 2016 levels and anyone holding that up as the backbone of their economic policy is incompetent.

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frankblack
3 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

They can be as tactical as they like but the unionist vote will be what??? 40% at the Holyrood elections?

 

Labour is finished and nobody up here voted tory. most of their MSP's got in on the list vote. Useless.

 

Youre clutching at straws. It'll be an SNP whitewash, the unionists will be ragdolled aboot the place and whats more...YOU KNOW IT!

 

We will see.

 

You are overlooking where lost labour votes will go from anti-independence voters.

 

My argument is there will be enough seats taken against the SNP to block Independence.

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XB52
3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Try learning to read before replying with an incoherent rant.  That isn't what I said at all.

 

 

The oil industry in Scotland has not recovered to pre 2016 levels and anyone holding that up as the backbone of their economic policy is incompetent.

Its exactly what you said, not my fault if you can't understand your own posts in your rush to slag off the SNP

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frankblack
Just now, XB52 said:

Its exactly what you said, not my fault if you can't understand your own posts in your rush to slag off the SNP

 

:cornette: x 1 million 

 

Literacy clearly isn't your strong point.  Trying to defend yourself saying I don't understand what I posted. :rofl:

 

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Pans Jambo
14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

We will see.

 

You are overlooking where lost labour votes will go from anti-independence voters.

 

My argument is there will be enough seats taken against the SNP to block Independence.

Nope. Clear Independence majority and yet another mandate to hold one. 

 

You spewin???

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Pans Jambo
18 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Try learning to read before replying with an incoherent rant.  That isn't what I said at all.

 

 

The oil industry in Scotland has not recovered to pre 2016 levels and anyone holding that up as the backbone of their economic policy is incompetent.

Who says its Scotland backbone? One of many resources we should be pooling and sharing between 5 Million folk not 60Million. 

 

Is the oil only worthless when Scotland has anything to do with it? Seems to be OK for the rest of the planet. 

 

Funny that. 

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Justin Z
38 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

:cornette: x 1 million 

 

Literacy clearly isn't your strong point.  Trying to defend yourself saying I don't understand what I posted. :rofl:

 

Your wankery is really not a good look.

 

That post was written like actual shit--unclear structure and multiple possible meanings. XB's interpretation was entirely reasonable in trying to make sense out of that verbal diarrhea, especially given your history of one-sided guff and flat out lying about how you voted in the first referendum.

 

 

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frankblack
2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Your wankery is really not a good look.

 

That post was written like actual shit--unclear structure and multiple possible meanings. XB's interpretation was entirely reasonable in trying to make sense out of that verbal diarrhea, especially given your history of one-sided guff and flat out lying about how you voted in the first referendum.

 

 

 

:rofl:

 

Oh dear.  You seem to be having a meltdown and dishing out the personal abuse as usual.

 

Dry your eyes.   By the time Scotland gets anywhere near another shot at an Indy referendum, Corbyn will be gone and someone electable in place.

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Justin Z
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

:rofl:

 

Oh dear.  You seem to be having a meltdown and dishing out the personal abuse as usual.

 

Dry your eyes.   By the time Scotland gets anywhere near another shot at an Indy referendum, Corbyn will be gone and someone electable in place.

 

:kirklol:

Have yourself a wee break, Franky boy. And/or go back to school. :lol: Laughable grasp of how to write English. Veins bursting in your forehead at people for understandably misreading your poor attempt at the written word, and then trying to deflect your anger on others, "as usual".

 

:qqb006:

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frankblack
15 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

:kirklol:

Have yourself a wee break, Franky boy. And/or go back to school. :lol: Laughable grasp of how to write English. Veins bursting in your forehead at people for understandably misreading your poor attempt at the written word, and then trying to deflect your anger on others, "as usual".

 

:qqb006:

 

Oh dear.  You are having a mare.

 

The first person to resort to personal abuse has lost the argument. 👍

 

You sound really unconvincing in your belief that Independence is happening.  I am content knowing its got no chance.

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Justin Z
1 minute ago, frankblack said:

The first person to resort to personal abuse has lost the argument.

👍

 

5 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Try learning to read before replying with an incoherent rant.

 

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Adam Murray

Decent article in The Herald today.

I think this is where a lot of No voters are at the moment, along with a lot of undecided voters.

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17832792.win-no-voter-economy-stupid/?fbclid=IwAR1aa-4uVyvIUEYTrI4s12sJr2WS-vYdWciJk9R0Xr6DY6AuZCQc1Fq0SaE

 

Also, as is said in the article, the next Scottish Elections is likely to be campaigned for on the one issue, with Pro Independence parties looking for a majority to force another Indy ref.

 

Anyone know when the campaigning will start, has it already started, or will it be ramped up due to a possible No Deal Brexit? 2021 is not too far away.

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frankblack
2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

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giphy.gif

 

Selective quoting only makes you look an arse - and the smilies don't hide it.

 

Think you'll find the poster resorted to personal abuse inbetween those posts.  You however jumped straight in with personal abuse.

 

I'll accept your apology now.

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XB52
9 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

:cornette: x 1 million 

 

Literacy clearly isn't your strong point.  Trying to defend yourself saying I don't understand what I posted. :rofl:

 

I'll try one more time, and I'll write really slow to give you time to read the letters that make words so perhaps you might just comprehend them. You said, and I quote " The fact is that it showed the SNP's plans for independence were written on the back of a fag packet, and the Scottish oil industry has never recovered. " So the SNP plans on a fag packet (actually a pretty large number of pages in their white paper)meant the oil industry never recovered. It really isn't that hard you know but never mind; you cling to your precious union as it reaches it's dying days. 

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Justin Z
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

I'll accept your apology now.

 

:qqb006:

 

Please keep posting--the entertainment is much appreciated during these long days of dissertation writing.

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frankblack
31 minutes ago, XB52 said:

I'll try one more time, and I'll write really slow to give you time to read the letters that make words so perhaps you might just comprehend them. You said, and I quote " The fact is that it showed the SNP's plans for independence were written on the back of a fag packet, and the Scottish oil industry has never recovered. " So the SNP plans on a fag packet (actually a pretty large number of pages in their white paper)meant the oil industry never recovered. It really isn't that hard you know but never mind; you cling to your precious union as it reaches it's dying days. 

 

You still haven't got it.

 

I said it never recovered to pre 2016 levels, and the whole economic plan was written on a fag packet and a work of fiction put together to patch a huge gaping hole in their economic plans.  The entire backbone of the economy was to be propped up by the Oil industry and that was proven to be nonsense within months.

 

Once Brexit happens you will find the reality that all but the window lickers won't jump into Independence and sacrifice all their security.

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frankblack
16 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

:qqb006:

 

Please keep posting--the entertainment is much appreciated during these long days of dissertation writing.

 

giphy.gif

 

Stop posting, and have a lie down - you are embarassing yourself.

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Justin Z
1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

giphy.gif

 

Stop posting, and have a lie down - you are embarassing yourself.

 

Mate I have to hand it to you, training a pigeon to post for you on Kickback, that's brilliant stuff. I take back what I said about the quality of your earlier post--it was well above average level English for birds.

And thank you again for the hearty laugh. Keep them coming! :thumbsup:

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frankblack
9 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Mate I have to hand it to you, training a pigeon to post for you on Kickback, that's brilliant stuff. I take back what I said about the quality of your earlier post--it was well above average level English for birds.

And thank you again for the hearty laugh. Keep them coming! :thumbsup:

 

:cornette_dog:

 

The sad thing here is you don't realise you are acting like a bairn as your meltdown continues.

 

I need to get to work so if it makes you feel better you can keep pretending you won some kind of debate.  🤣

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Justin Z
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

The sad thing here is you don't realise you are acting like a bairn as your meltdown continues.

 

I need to get to work so if it makes you feel better you can keep pretending you won some kind of debate.  🤣

 

I can't decide which is more adorable--you playing pretend (just like a bairn) that big bad meanie Justin is having a meltdown, or your meltdown itself.

 

10 hours ago, frankblack said:

Once Brexit happens you will find the reality that all but the window lickers won't jump into Independence and sacrifice all their security.

You mean non-cowards like you. :qqb006:

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ri Alban
On 13/08/2019 at 08:07, frankblack said:

 

:rofl:

 

If you do that you will dilute your own vote.

 

Tactical voting will be evident next Holyrood elections to remove the Nationalist majority which the Greens are propping you up with. 👍

SNP first choice, SIP second choice. 80 seats, thank you very much. 👍

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Boris
17 hours ago, Adam Murray said:

Decent article in The Herald today.

I think this is where a lot of No voters are at the moment, along with a lot of undecided voters.

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17832792.win-no-voter-economy-stupid/?fbclid=IwAR1aa-4uVyvIUEYTrI4s12sJr2WS-vYdWciJk9R0Xr6DY6AuZCQc1Fq0SaE

 

Also, as is said in the article, the next Scottish Elections is likely to be campaigned for on the one issue, with Pro Independence parties looking for a majority to force another Indy ref.

 

Anyone know when the campaigning will start, has it already started, or will it be ramped up due to a possible No Deal Brexit? 2021 is not too far away.

 

Interesting article, but given the author of it isn't writing from a position of impartiality, it colours his argument (imo) and the obvious riposte would be "and Westminster is doing so well?"

 

Which, unfortunately as it may seem to some, fortunately to others, we are getting to the position where the current ineptitude from Westminster is critically affecting the economy so much, that Independence automatically appears to be a better/no difference option.  In other words "project fear", as it could be called, is now a spent force.

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pablo
10 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Interesting article, but given the author of it isn't writing from a position of impartiality, it colours his argument (imo) and the obvious riposte would be "and Westminster is doing so well?"

 

Which, unfortunately as it may seem to some, fortunately to others, we are getting to the position where the current ineptitude from Westminster is critically affecting the economy so much, that Independence automatically appears to be a better/no difference option.  In other words "project fear", as it could be called, is now a spent force.

 

Are you basing your view on the author's impartiality on the fact that his background appears to be rooted in the Scottish business community? As an opinion piece, I thought it was fairly balanced, especially compared with many other articles on the subject.

 

Of course,  that it roughly mirrors my own views, and (nearly 😉) everyone I know on a personal and professional basis, might have something to do with it! 

 

And which Government do you consider to be excelling at growing their economy? Obviously not Westminster, not Holyrood surely, can't be the Bundestag, as the German economy looks like it's about to nosedive.

 

You're kidding yourself on if you think most people won't again consider the risk and reward element, should there ever be a second referendum.

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Boris
25 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Are you basing your view on the author's impartiality on the fact that his background appears to be rooted in the Scottish business community? As an opinion piece, I thought it was fairly balanced, especially compared with many other articles on the subject.

 

He rights for Conservative Home and was a former Head of Comms for the Scottish Conservative Party.  The business community is and should be as vocal on these matters as any other section of society.  And I also get that if any future Yes campaign is to win, then they have to win over that community and win the argument. 

 

25 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Of course,  that it roughly mirrors my own views, and (nearly 😉) everyone I know on a personal and professional basis, might have something to do with it! 

 

And which Government do you consider to be excelling at growing their economy? Obviously not Westminster, not Holyrood surely, can't be the Bundestag, as the German economy looks like it's about to nosedive.

 

Doesn't that say that current economic thinking is passed it's sell by date?  

 

25 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

You're kidding yourself on if you think most people won't again consider the risk and reward element, should there ever be a second referendum.

 

That isn't what I was saying.  Totally agree that people will consider that, as they no doubt do at any election.

 

What I was trying to say was that given the omnishambles around us as is, the risk and reward element that previously had been an asset to the No campaign, may now seem less risky and potentially more or at least equally rewarding for the Yes campaign.

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JamboX2
1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

 

What I was trying to say was that given the omnishambles around us as is, the risk and reward element that previously had been an asset to the No campaign, may now seem less risky and potentially more or at least equally rewarding for the Yes campaign.

 

In a nutshell this is 100% correct. If no deal occurs then the economic and competency arguments evaporate for No.

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pablo
1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

He rights for Conservative Home and was a former Head of Comms for the Scottish Conservative Party.  The business community is and should be as vocal on these matters as any other section of society.  And I also get that if any future Yes campaign is to win, then they have to win over that community and win the argument. 

 

I didn't know that, and took him at his word about not having a leaning towards any particular party. In that case I'd agree that the journalist could be perceived as being somewhat disingenuous. 

 

1 hour ago, Boris said:

Doesn't that say that current economic thinking is passed it's sell by date?  

 

 

Maybe, but can anyone even remember a time when the Government priority was to grow the economy and the necessary infrastructure to do so? Day job please, and in both Parliaments.

 

1 hour ago, Boris said:

That isn't what I was saying.  Totally agree that people will consider that, as they no doubt do at any election.

 

What I was trying to say was that given the omnishambles around us as is, the risk and reward element that previously had been an asset to the No campaign, may now seem less risky and potentially more or at least equally rewarding for the Yes campaign.

 

Not sure about that. Look, I don't think many on the Leave side will care about the economic consequences, which is fair enough. But for Remainers , the big questions need addressed before a switch could be considered. IMO.

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Boris
34 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Not sure about that. Look, I don't think many on the Leave side will care about the economic consequences, which is fair enough. But for Remainers , the big questions need addressed before a switch could be considered. IMO.

Don’t disagree! Just meaning a no deal Boris boosted economic balls up may help answer those questions.

 

If the uk implodes due to no deal , previous no voters may just think Indy is the lesser of two evils.

 

But agree that case has to be made by yes campaign, warts and all.

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ri Alban

I'd just ask Scotland one question. Did the UK need permission for a Referendum? Well... Ye know!

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jack D and coke
2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I'd just ask Scotland one question. Did the UK need permission for a Referendum? Well... Ye know!

Imagine the UK had to ask for another one and the EU told us no. You had your referendum now get on with the day job and stfu....you could literally only imagine the seethe. What sort of union does that make ours? 

The uk has left a union where we all traded fairly in general, all had an equal say in decisions, all had a veto too.  We actually had the best deal out of many of the countries by still having our own currency etc yet we left which is fair enough but...

Is any of that comparable to Scotland in the uk union? 

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ri Alban
1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Imagine the UK had to ask for another one and the EU told us no. You had your referendum now get on with the day job and stfu....you could literally only imagine the seethe. What sort of union does that make ours? 

The uk has left a union where we all traded fairly in general, all had an equal say in decisions, all had a veto too.  We actually had the best deal out of many of the countries by still having our own currency etc yet we left which is fair enough but...

Is any of that comparable to Scotland in the uk union? 

The Union is finished. Scotland will be telt no more. There's nothing left, other than sectarianism. And that will be destroyed post independence. Roll on Scotland taking it's place back in the world. 

Scotland opens soon!

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redjambo
14 hours ago, ri Alban said:

The Union is finished. Scotland will be telt no more. There's nothing left, other than sectarianism. And that will be destroyed post independence. Roll on Scotland taking it's place back in the world. 

Scotland opens soon!

 

You don't half speak some rubbish on here, ri. There are many advantages to independence but sectarianism will continue on long after it. It's too ingrained in the psyche of too many people.

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jack D and coke
11 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

You don't half speak some rubbish on here, ri. There are many advantages to independence but sectarianism will continue on long after it. It's too ingrained in the psyche of too many people.

It would probably get worse post Indy. 

All I see on Twitter is unionist/rangers and some Hearts fans fans calling the SNP republicans, taigs, tarriers and Sinn Féin’s pals etc

I don’t imagine them being chuffed about independence tbh. 

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AlphonseCapone
1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

It would probably get worse post Indy. 

All I see on Twitter is unionist/rangers and some Hearts fans fans calling the SNP republicans, taigs, tarriers and Sinn Féin’s pals etc

I don’t imagine them being chuffed about independence tbh. 

 

Agree. It will get so much worse after independence as emotions run high. I think we are probably about 30 years away from it no longer being a thing. 

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JamboX2
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Imagine the UK had to ask for another one and the EU told us no. You had your referendum now get on with the day job and stfu....you could literally only imagine the seethe. What sort of union does that make ours? 

The uk has left a union where we all traded fairly in general, all had an equal say in decisions, all had a veto too.  We actually had the best deal out of many of the countries by still having our own currency etc yet we left which is fair enough but...

Is any of that comparable to Scotland in the uk union? 

 

This ignores reality.

 

The EU is a union of sovereign states. The EU does not have control over how the constitutions of those states operates.

 

Scotland is not sovereign and is a part of the UK. The constitution of the UK - i.e. Acts of Union - are reserved to the UK parliament.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

As for Scotland in the UK it can be said that it has enjoyed a hugely favourable position in the UK since 1707. Unlike Wales it retained all it's domestic institutions. Unlike Ireland it wasn't viewed as a colony. Scotland had its own law, courts, nobility, education system and commercial institutions. It benefitted more out of empire and post-war spending than most other areas of the UK ever did. Up till now it's arguably not really needed much more than devolution or its domestic separation from the UK pre-devolution as it's domestic institutions and traditions were respected.

 

Perhaps now that is changing because of Brexit and needs reassessed. 

Edited by JamboX2

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Roxy Hearts
9 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

This ignores reality.

 

The EU is a union of sovereign states. The EU does not have control over how the constitutions of those states operates.

 

Scotland is not sovereign and is a part of the UK. The constitution of the UK - i.e. Acts of Union - are reserved to the UK parliament.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

As for Scotland in the UK it can be said that it has enjoyed a hugely favourable position in the UK since 1707. Unlike Wales it retained all it's domestic institutions. Unlike Ireland it wasn't viewed as a colony. Scotland had its own law, courts, nobility, education system and commercial institutions. It benefitted more out of empire and post-war spending than most other areas of the UK ever did. Up till now it's arguably not really needed much more than devolution or its domestic separation from the UK pre-devolution as it's domestic institutions and traditions were respected.

 

Perhaps now that is changing because of Brexit and needs reassessed. 

You changing your mind again JX2? I get the feeling you're moving towards independence again. I hope you are. 😁

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JamboX2
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

You changing your mind again JX2? I get the feeling you're moving towards independence again. I hope you are. 😁

 

Ha, not quite. All I'm saying is the comparison made is not helpful and misses the point.

 

As for a vote I'm not opposed to a vote so long as it is through the proper constitutional means: agreement with the UK Parliament  and legal power handed off.

 

A Catalonia style situation would be illegitimate and hugely divisive. To be avoided at all costs.

Edited by JamboX2

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Boris
1 minute ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Ha, not quite. All I'm saying is the comparison made is not helpful and misses the point.

 

As for a vote I'm not opposed to a vote so long as it is through the proper constitutional means: agreement with the UK Parliament  and legal power handed off.

 

A Catalonia style situation would be illegitimate and hugely divisive. To be avoided at all costs.

 

Agree with you regards a Catalonia type situation, however Westminster should honour the wishes of the Scottish Parliament, regardless of their own view on the topic.

 

So Corbyn and McDonnell's comments are relatively refreshing, imo.

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Roxy Hearts
55 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Ha, not quite. All I'm saying is the comparison made is not helpful and misses the point.

 

As for a vote I'm not opposed to a vote so long as it is through the proper constitutional means: agreement with the UK Parliament  and legal power handed off.

 

A Catalonia style situation would be illegitimate and hugely divisive. To be avoided at all costs.

Cheers JX2. What about Scottish sovereignty? The disrespect Westminster shows Scotland is deplorable. I used to believe in Labour values but all of it appears a sham. I think it's time Scotland matured into a full sovereign state. 

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JamboX2
7 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Cheers JX2. What about Scottish sovereignty? The disrespect Westminster shows Scotland is deplorable. I used to believe in Labour values but all of it appears a sham. I think it's time Scotland matured into a full sovereign state. 

 

Simply it doesn't really exist whilst in the UK. The constitution is clear: Parliamentary sovereignty is the constitutional basis. There is a democratic mandate and that is different entirely.

 

What McDonnell has said should largely be where Labour is. But the whole thing requires an underpinning of respect and understanding that respect is a two way street. "Neverendums" are unhelpful. So there needs to be a tension.

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