How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[jack D and coke]

A unionist claims he’s more Scottish than someone a bit further up the page yet Roxy gets rounded on?

Its like what I’ve always said unionists to me are like Neymar, the slightest touch and they’re rolling about looking for a foul. They can sling any amount of accusations back too yet it's the nasty poisonous nats again. 

Anybody claiming things are more poisonous now have short memories or are too young (mibbe watching Norman Whiteside videos in their nappies I don’t know) but the labour attacks on John Major when he was going for PM were shocking, the mobs that followed him around hounding him and nowhere near what the easily offended call poison now. They’re in fear and look for anything to cling on to to make indy supporters look like maddies.

Alex Massie (good unionist)sums it up perfectly for me here...

 

[Roxy Hearts]

32 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

That's big of you. Scots who don't support Independence can still consider themselves Scottish, but are of a lesser quality than those in favour? 

Once again, it's only my opinion and you can disagree as is your prerogative. People living in Scotland are Scottish regardless of nationality as far as I'm concerned. If they wish to feel more  British then fair enough and I believe as I' ve said that if you want to be governed by Westminster then surely you feel more British? I don't particularly feel British as that nationalist Thatcher, who held my country in contempt, made me lose any faith in equality I used to have in these Isles. 

[Phil Dunphy]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

How did come to that conclusion? Can't understand your way of thinking. Surely if you prefer to be governed by Westminster then you believe being British supercedes wanting to be governed by our own parliament which would be Scottish. It's only my opinion and I think it's fine to think like that. 

 

I've have plenty family and friends who voted No and would probably do so again. 

 

Again, it’s not up to people like yourself to decide just how Scottish someone is based on their political leanings.

 

You cant hide behind the ‘that’s my opinion and I’m allowed to have it’ card here. If I said it was my opinion that the moon was made of cheese, it wouldn’t make me right either. 

[Roxy Hearts]

5 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

Again, it’s not up to people like yourself to decide just how Scottish someone is based on their political leanings.

 

You cant hide behind the ‘that’s my opinion and I’m allowed to have it’ card here. If I said it was my opinion that the moon was made of cheese, it wouldn’t make me right either. 

I'm not hiding. You to me are more British than I am. Nothing wrong with that and you should be proud. Unless you're not?

[Boris]

50 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I've had this argument with the same poster.

 

It seems the nationalists are desperate to group together everyone that isn't for them into some sort of non-existent "BritNat" term.  Its easier to throw abuse at something they can target than the differing views of every other Scottish resident.

 

Isn't that what you are doing to those who support independence, grouping them all together based on what one poster has said?

 

Stones, glass houses, pots, kettles etc etc ad nauseum...

[Phil Dunphy]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm not hiding. You to me are more British than I am. Nothing wrong with that and you should be proud. Unless you're not?

 

I’m neither proud nor ashamed to be British. My character isn’t defined by where I’m from. 

 

That is not the point, however. It is not up to you or anyone else to decide how Scottish someone is. That’s just infantile. 

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Isn't that what you are doing to those who support independence, grouping them all together based on what one poster has said?

 

Stones, glass houses, pots, kettles etc etc ad nauseum...

 

Not the same thing at all.  There is only one effective party for Scottish Nationalism.  The others are merely topping up the seats at Holyrood just now to keep the SNP in control.

[Boris]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Not the same thing at all.  There is only one effective party for Scottish Nationalism.  The others are merely topping up the seats at Holyrood just now to keep the SNP in control.

 

Who mentioned political parties?  You are tarring all who would vote YES as being the same, which is what you accuse the nationalists of doing, despite no one mentioning the SNP in any of these posts.

 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Who mentioned political parties?  You are tarring all who would vote YES as being the same, which is what you accuse the nationalists of doing, despite no one mentioning the SNP in any of these posts.

 

 

I think it is fair to say that everyone who votes Yes is supporting the Scottish Nationalists, but on the other hand a person voting No can't be classed as a British Nationalist because they don't agree with the Scottish Nationalists.  Their reasons for not agreeing with them can be many, and they may class themselves as equally Scottish as a Yes voter.

[Roxy Hearts]

16 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I’m neither proud nor ashamed to be British. My character isn’t defined by where I’m from. 

 

That is not the point, however. It is not up to you or anyone else to decide how Scottish someone is. That’s just infantile. 

Infantile? It's an opinion. 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Who mentioned political parties?  You are tarring all who would vote YES as being the same, which is what you accuse the nationalists of doing, despite no one mentioning the SNP in any of these posts.

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

See all this 'Nationalism' pish that gets banded about. loadashite!

 

Whats the problem with just wanting Scots to run Scotland and make our own decisions? Being completely fed-up with all the rubbish that comes from Westminster and the democratic deficit within the UK's parliament?

 

I dont understand why folk seem to like the politics at Westminster and dont really want to change Scotland without it. Why do they keep talking Scotland down and why cant they see how the UK government treat Scotland like a backwater. 

 

Strange people (Aye, those who call Scots 'Nationalists' but cry to the world when they are referred to as 'BritNats').

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I think it is fair to say that everyone who votes Yes is supporting the Scottish Nationalists, but on the other hand a person voting No can't be classed as a British Nationalist because they don't agree with the Scottish Nationalists.  Their reasons for not agreeing with them can be many, and they may class themselves as equally Scottish as a Yes voter.

 

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

25 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

See all this 'Nationalism' pish that gets banded about. loadashite!

 

Whats the problem with just wanting Scots to run Scotland and make our own decisions? Being completely fed-up with all the rubbish that comes from Westminster and the democratic deficit within the UK's parliament?

 

I dont understand why folk seem to like the politics at Westminster and dont really want to change Scotland without it. Why do they keep talking Scotland down and why cant they see how the UK government treat Scotland like a backwater. 

 

Strange people (Aye, those who call Scots 'Nationalists' but cry to the world when they are referred to as 'BritNats').

Sort of where I'm at. 

[frankblack]

35 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

 

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Once again, it's only my opinion and you can disagree as is your prerogative. People living in Scotland are Scottish regardless of nationality as far as I'm concerned. If they wish to feel more  British then fair enough and I believe as I' ve said that if you want to be governed by Westminster then surely you feel more British? I don't particularly feel British as that nationalist Thatcher, who held my country in contempt, made me lose any faith in equality I used to have in these Isles. 

 

Blaming Margaret Thatcher?

 

[Boris]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

 

 

Do you want to keep the GIFs going all thread?  I can if you want to, but it was you that chose to respond to an answer you didn't like with a GIF.

 

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

Do you want to keep the GIFs going all thread?  I can if you want to, but it was you that chose to respond to an answer you didn't like with a GIF.

 

 

I neither liked or disliked your answer, tbh, I just felt it didn't really make much sense!

 

To recap, I said:

 

Who mentioned political parties?  You are tarring all who would vote YES as being the same, which is what you accuse the nationalists of doing, despite no one mentioning the SNP in any of these posts.

 

Then you said:

 

I think it is fair to say that everyone who votes Yes is supporting the Scottish Nationalists, but on the other hand a person voting No can't be classed as a British Nationalist because they don't agree with the Scottish Nationalists.  Their reasons for not agreeing with them can be many, and they may class themselves as equally Scottish as a Yes voter.

 

 

I'm not arguing about what makes someone more Scottish than anyone else, I couldn't give a monkey's about that.  I was just calling you out for applying the same principles you were berating someone else for.

 

 

[Phil Dunphy]

1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Infantile? It's an opinion. 

 

I’m aware it’s an opinion. 

 

However that doesn't mean people can’t say it’s a ridiculous one to hold. Donald Trump has some opinions too. 

[Roxy Hearts]

45 minutes ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

 

Blaming Margaret Thatcher?

 

Yes, I did. Destroyed the fabric of GB. IMO. 

 

3 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I’m aware it’s an opinion. 

 

However that doesn't mean people can’t say it’s a ridiculous one to hold. Donald Trump has some opinions too. 

All infantile I expect? Trump doesn't speak ill of his independent country. 

[frankblack]

24 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I neither liked or disliked your answer, tbh, I just felt it didn't really make much sense!

 

To recap, I said:

 

Who mentioned political parties?  You are tarring all who would vote YES as being the same, which is what you accuse the nationalists of doing, despite no one mentioning the SNP in any of these posts.

 

Then you said:

 

I think it is fair to say that everyone who votes Yes is supporting the Scottish Nationalists, but on the other hand a person voting No can't be classed as a British Nationalist because they don't agree with the Scottish Nationalists.  Their reasons for not agreeing with them can be many, and they may class themselves as equally Scottish as a Yes voter.

 

 

I'm not arguing about what makes someone more Scottish than anyone else, I couldn't give a monkey's about that.  I was just calling you out for applying the same principles you were berating someone else for.

 

 

 

Thank you for getting back on topic.

 

The original point was about anyone who voted No being labelled as a "BritNat".  To clarify I am basing my opinion on the outspoken Yes voters here and elsewhere who are banding about that term at anyone who disagrees with them - it might not be all Yes voters, but the ones that shout the loudest and most frequently.

 

My argument is that this "BritNat" term is nonsense and an attempt to materialise everyone that isn't with them into a target that they can attack.

[Phil Dunphy]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

(Aye, those who call Scots 'Nationalists' but cry to the world when they are referred to as 'BritNats').

 

Because, speaking personally, I abhor nationalism in all its forms. 

 

Which I've had to explain to you time after time. Yet you don’t seem to grasp that pretty basic statement. 

 

You referring to people like me as a BritNat is insulting because I don’t believe in any form of Nationalism. Period. 

[Phil Dunphy]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

Yes, I did. Destroyed the fabric of GB. IMO. 

 

All infantile I expect? Trump doesn't speak ill of his independent country. 

 

I don’t know many grown ups who believe sexual assault is funny. 

 

Or or that a political leaning makes you more/less Scottish. That’s just crossing into a pissing contest. Perhaps you believe people who voted No should pay more to watch Scotland play football? Since they’re not as Scottish as the flag waving, badge wearers who shout from the rooftops about how Scottish they are. 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Thank you for getting back on topic.

 

The original point was about anyone who voted No being labelled as a "BritNat".  To clarify I am basing my opinion on the outspoken Yes voters here and elsewhere who are banding about that term at anyone who disagrees with them - it might not be all Yes voters, but the ones that shout the loudest and most frequently.

 

My argument is that this "BritNat" term is nonsense and an attempt to materialise everyone that isn't with them into a target that they can attack.

 

So you admit you over egged your comment regards all YES voters?

 

How can you expect to win an argument when you do the same that you berate others for?

 

Regards britnat etc, I agree, you don't have to be a no voter to be a british nationalist.  Equally, you can vote YES without being a Scottish nationalist!

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

Because, speaking personally, I abhor nationalism in all its forms. 

 

Which I've had to explain to you time after time. Yet you don’t seem to grasp that pretty basic statement. 

 

You referring to people like me as a BritNat is insulting because I don’t believe in any form of Nationalism. Period. 

 

Good post, and pretty much speaks for me too.

 

As a floating voter, I don't have any party allegiances and vote based on issues I feel important to me.   Personally I feel all politicians can't be trusted and will tell you what you want to hear then do whatever they want to when they get the power.

[Phil Dunphy]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Good post, and pretty much speaks for me too.

 

As a floating voter, I don't have any party allegiances and vote based on issues I feel important to me.   Personally I feel all politicians can't be trusted and will tell you what you want to hear then do whatever they want to when they get the power.

 

That’s the same as myself. I’ve never been a member of a political party and only vote based on the candidates before me and what they intend to do to make my standard of living better. 

 

Or if they stand up for my side of the coin. 

[frankblack]

Just now, Boris said:

 

So you admit you over egged your comment regards all YES voters?

 

Ok - I'll concede on that - slightly.

 

Just now, Boris said:

How can you expect to win an argument when you do the same that you berate others for?

 

Regards britnat etc, I agree, you don't have to be a no voter to be a british nationalist.  Equally, you can vote YES without being a Scottish nationalist!

 

I am not sure that voting Yes without being a Scottish Nationalist makes a lot of sense since no other party in Scotland backing that has any relevant share of the vote other than the SNP.

[Roxy Hearts]

14 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

I don’t know many grown ups who believe sexual assault is funny. 

 

Or or that a political leaning makes you more/less Scottish. That’s just crossing into a pissing contest. Perhaps you believe people who voted No should pay more to watch Scotland play football? Since they’re not as Scottish as the flag waving, badge wearers who shout from the rooftops about how Scottish they are. 

You know what I'm talking about Phil. Any comments about sexual misconduct are disgusting but I don't know what he said or done. It was his affection for his country in his opinion. 

[Roxy Hearts]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Ok - I'll concede on that - slightly.

 

 

I am not sure that voting Yes without being a Scottish Nationalist makes a lot of sense since no other party in Scotland backing that has any relevant share of the vote other than the SNP.

All parties have independent thinkers and some have already crossed over. 

[Phil Dunphy]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

You know what I'm talking about Phil. Any comments about sexual misconduct are disgusting but I don't know what he said or done. It was his affection for his country in his opinion. 

 

It’s his opinion though. By your own logic, it doesn’t matter what he said or believes, because it’s just his opinion. 

[Boris]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Ok - I'll concede on that - slightly.

 

 

I am not sure that voting Yes without being a Scottish Nationalist makes a lot of sense since no other party in Scotland backing that has any relevant share of the vote other than the SNP.

 

I give up!

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

7 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

It’s his opinion though. By your own logic, it doesn’t matter what he said or believes, because it’s just his opinion. 

Aren't all opinions subjective by their nature? I've stated in a previous post I'm not trying to say I'm right, just expressing my thoughts and how I feel about it. If you want, I think it's a fact that if you voted No you're more British than Scottish as you wish to be governed by the current state and not a Scottish one. No science just a thought. 

[Phil Dunphy]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Aren't all opinions subjective by their nature? I've stated in a previous post I'm not trying to say I'm right, just expressing my thoughts and how I feel about it. If you want, I think it's a fact that if you voted No you're more British than Scottish as you wish to be governed by the current state and not a Scottish one. No science just a thought. 

 

Right, I get that it’s your thinking on the matter. I’m, however, telling you that you don’t have the right to judge anyone as ‘more British’ or ‘less Scottish’ based on any kind of thinking you can manage. 

 

That’s a childish line of thinking. Whether you want to admit that or not. 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

Right, I get that it’s your thinking on the matter. I’m, however, telling you that you don’t have the right to judge anyone as ‘more British’ or ‘less Scottish’ based on any kind of thinking you can manage. 

 

That’s a childish line of thinking. Whether you want to admit that or not. 

That's your opinion....

[pablo]

3 hours ago, pablo said:

 

That's big of you. Scots who don't support Independence can still consider themselves Scottish, but are of a lesser quality than those in favour? 

 

@Roxy Hearts I consider myself Scottish and I believe our interests are best served in the United Kingdom. Do you believe me to be less of a Scot than you? Yes or No

[jack D and coke]

11 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

 

Right, I get that it’s your thinking on the matter. I’m, however, telling you that you don’t have the right to judge anyone as ‘more British’ or ‘less Scottish’ based on any kind of thinking you can manage. 

 

That’s a childish line of thinking. Whether you want to admit that or not. 

But that is how it is framed and especially by Better Together. Making our families foreigners, ripping apart our family of nations etc etc. I had mates who overnight went to supporting England after being massive ABE, because we’re British is what I was told. They now rip the piss out of anything Scotland, whether it’s the national team or whatever. The union jacks at ibrox and Tynecastle what are they for? It’s to portray pro Britishness over anything else. I have family who are the same and fair enough, I don’t have a big problem with it either if that’s how you feel but its gives people the right to form an opinion from that standpoint. 

[Phil Dunphy]

13 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

But that is how it is framed and especially by Better Together. Making our families foreigners, ripping apart our family of nations etc etc. I had mates who overnight went to supporting England after being massive ABE, because we’re British is what I was told. They now rip the piss out of anything Scotland, whether it’s the national team or whatever. The union jacks at ibrox and Tynecastle what are they for? It’s to portray pro Britishness over anything else. I have family who are the same and fair enough, I don’t have a big problem with it either if that’s how you feel but its gives people the right to form an opinion from that standpoint. 

 

Right, but I wouldn’t tell Leigh Griffiths he’s Irish after that picture of him waving the Tricolour at Ibrox last season. Or at least say he’s not very Scottish. 

 

Someone I used to go to the football with was very proud to see Team GB compete in the Olympic football event in 2012. He also went (might still go, I’m not sure) to Hampden for every Scotland home game. Just because he’s proud to be British doesn’t mean he’s less of a Scot because he enjoyed the Team GB event. 

 

I stand my comments regarding that kind of behaviour being childish. The world isn’t black and white. 

[frankblack]

29 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

But that is how it is framed and especially by Better Together. Making our families foreigners, ripping apart our family of nations etc etc. I had mates who overnight went to supporting England after being massive ABE, because we’re British is what I was told. They now rip the piss out of anything Scotland, whether it’s the national team or whatever. The union jacks at ibrox and Tynecastle what are they for? It’s to portray pro Britishness over anything else. I have family who are the same and fair enough, I don’t have a big problem with it either if that’s how you feel but its gives people the right to form an opinion from that standpoint. 

 

Union Jacks at Tynecastle and Ibrox have got nothing to do with this debate, and I think you will find they tend to appear when certain teams in green are in town.  Likewise the same goes for St Andrews flags - sod all to do with anything other than identifying us as a Scottish club.

Edited October 25, 2018 by frankblack

[Phil Dunphy]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Union Jacks at Tynecastle and Ibrox have got nothing to do with this debate, and I think you will find they tend to appear when certain teams in green are in town.

 

Or the Irish ones when more successful neighbours come to town. 

[Roxy Hearts]

36 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

@Roxy Hearts I consider myself Scottish and I believe our interests are best served in the United Kingdom. Do you believe me to be less of a Scot than you? Yes or No

That's your opinion fair enough. Are you British first? 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

That's your opinion fair enough. Are you British first? 

 

I think he quite clearly answered your question.

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

That's your opinion fair enough. Are you British first? 

 

Why aren't you answering my question? 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I think he quite clearly answered your question.

Is he British first? I get he's Scottish. Westminster British/Scottish. Independence just Scottish. 

[frankblack]

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

Is he British first? I get he's Scottish. Westminster British/Scottish. Independence just Scottish. 

 

 

He said he considers himself Scottish.  That is all there is to it, no ifs, no buts, no maybes.

[Roxy Hearts]

12 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I think he quite clearly answered your question.

I think you being Scottish is diluted as you wish to be governed by the British state. Meant for pablo. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Roxy Hearts

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

He said he considers himself Scottish.  That is all there is to it, no ifs, no buts, no maybes.

When is he British? 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I think you being Scottish is diluted as you wish to be governed by the British state.

 

That is complete and utter bollocks.

 

Just now, Roxy Hearts said:

When is he British? 

 

You sound like someone from the Green Brigade.  Give it up, you are not helping your cause.  FYI everyone born in the UK is by default a citizen of the United Kingdom, including yourself I assume.  The people voted to reject Independence and Yes won't get a better chance in the near future.

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

So you admit you over egged your comment regards all YES voters?

 

How can you expect to win an argument when you do the same that you berate others for?

 

Regards britnat etc, I agree, you don't have to be a no voter to be a british nationalist.  Equally, you can vote YES without being a Scottish nationalist!

I presume you meant the other way around here, Boris ?  If so I agree.  Too much pigeon holing and generalising going on, some of it quite ridiculous. There is a usually a full spectrum of opinion on any given subject. There are certainly plenty of Yes supporters around who don't particularly like the SNP. Even a small slice of Tories support Yes!

[Boris]

4 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

A unionist claims he’s more Scottish than someone a bit further up the page yet Roxy gets rounded on?

Its like what I’ve always said unionists to me are like Neymar, the slightest touch and they’re rolling about looking for a foul. They can sling any amount of accusations back too yet it's the nasty poisonous nats again. 

Anybody claiming things are more poisonous now have short memories or are too young (mibbe watching Norman Whiteside videos in their nappies I don’t know) but the labour attacks on John Major when he was going for PM were shocking, the mobs that followed him around hounding him and nowhere near what the easily offended call poison now. They’re in fear and look for anything to cling on to to make indy supporters look like maddies.

Alex Massie (good unionist)sums it up perfectly for me here...

 

 

I hadn't read that before, but Massies comments are shrewd and on the money, IMO.