Goncalves - some Hearts fans in racist abuse claims

[Bazzas right boot]

42 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Reasonable doubt

 

 

Only if you don't believe posters.

 

I can't comment in direct reply to Goncalves family comments, but I have heard folk be racist to our own players and  folk singing songs that are racist and sectarian.

 

There is no doubt, I have heard it a few good  times.

 

If you have not heard any such songs, then the doubt belongs to you and each individual that never hears such songs or  comments.

 

It is a small  minority, thankfully.

[jr ewing]

Section D. Never heard it. Other sections? Lets narrow it down.

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

1 minute ago, Thomaso said:

 

I'm not saying that.  After reading all the posts some have confirmed they heard racist abuse at Tynecastle. I accept that - I am just surprised that this BIG issue has not been highlighted before on JKB, and that at least some who did hear the abuse seemingly have not reported it to the police confidentially at the game, or did not inform the Club of this totally unacceptable behaviour.

 

If you need an example, I made a thread towards the end of last season calling people out for being racist towards the foreign players that were at the club at the time. 

[jack D and coke]

18 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

Pretty shite if true. Ive only heard the odd remark and hardly anything in a long time. Last time I heard it loudly the guy responsible was hounded out of G but that was like ten years ago.

 

Sad news but more reflective of society than Hearts.

 

Strange he waited until now to come out with it and never mentioned it to Levein etc, his family must've been in the posh seats too. I find the doesn't want to  tell anyone then speaks to the press once he's left strange.

That’s the incident I was thinking of. The guy got ran out of G and rightly so. 

Isma has fallen even further in my eyes now. Didn’t have the stomach for it when he was here and now he’s making accusations about us being racist supporters. Aye cheers Isma??

[Jammy T]

47 minutes ago, EIEIO said:

The rise of UKIP/Brexit/EDL/Britain First in the last few years has made this a growing issue accros the UK. At Hearts it is a small minority using openly racist abuse however there are a lot more who describe every black as eg 'lazy' no matter their  playing style or work rate. 

 

As an aside - that’s bullshit, but one for the shed.

[i8hibsh]

2 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

Only if you don't believe posters.

 

I can't comment in direct reply to Goncalves family comments, but I have heard folk be racist to our own players and  folk singing songs that are racist and sectarian.

 

There is no doubt, I have heard it a few good  times.

 

If you have not heard any such songs, then the doubt belongs to you and each individual that never hears such songs or  comments.

 

It is a small  minority, thankfully.

 

 

In the case in question there is reasonable doubt.

 

Racism amongst our support - I have no doubt whatsoever.

 

This is the difference here.

[Ron Burgundy]

Tynecastle is now a mirror image of 1960's Alabama.

It should be closed down immediately.

 

Or we can accept that for as long as there are human beings then some of them will not be very clever or they may be nasty.

 

None of this is specific to Hearts. Those that think we have a higher than average percentage of arseholes are shit stirring for their own agendas IMO.

[redm]

4 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

I'm not saying that.  After reading all the posts some have confirmed they heard racist abuse at Tynecastle. I accept that - I am just surprised that this BIG issue has not been highlighted before on JKB, and that at least some who did hear the abuse seemingly have not reported it to the police confidentially at the game, or did not inform the Club of this totally unacceptable behaviour.

 

It has been highlighted several times in just the last year or two, from memory. People have also mentioned reporting incidents to the club.

This isn't a new thing. It's just not usually in the sports pages of the local newspaper.

[Section G The Place To Be]

1 hour ago, Escobar PHM said:

No of course I wouldn't and I don't see the similarity between that and ignoring racist abuse when there are people in the vicinity who's job it is to deal with it and who's failure to do that job makes everyone else wary of taking it on themselves. There are circumstances in which I would challenge that kind of thing directly and have done. At a football match where emotions are high and you don't know who you are dealing with or who is with them or what their response will be. Nah its not my place to do something about that.

 

I have already stated I understand people may be too scared to challenge the culprits directly. Or they may have kids with them. There is however no excuse for not reporting something as offensive as racism or sectarianism to the club directly. You don’t even have to give your name. There’s no point people coming on here with their faux outrage and being all offended saying they have heard it for years or however long and also saying they know who or where it’s came from, and doing nothing about it. 

 

I have challenged people at a game and would do so again. I have sat in G for several years and I was in section N1 before that. I also go to plenty away games where it could be said there are a more hardcore element The couple of occasions I’ve heard anything offensive myself and those I go to games with have challenged them and it’s been left at that because they stopped or moved away. 

 

I can can also say though I haven’t heard anything for a very long time. But I’m not stupid or naive enough to think it does not happen.

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Thomaso said:

 

I'm not saying that.  After reading all the posts some have confirmed they heard racist abuse at Tynecastle. I accept that - I am just surprised that this BIG issue has not been highlighted before on JKB, and that at least some who did hear the abuse seemingly have not reported it to the police confidentially at the game, or did not inform the Club of this totally unacceptable behaviour.

 

 

Probably because folk are busy and don't want to get involved.

 

Do you report every crime, do you report every piece of law being broke, speeding, throwing litter away, etc?

 

Of course you don't because it doesn't directly affect you and you probably don't have the time and forget about it until it is brought up by someone who it directly affects orit directly affects you.

 

In this case a former black player has highlighted  the issue as it directly affected him and his family

 

Think of all the abuse cases, once one person came forward many also came forward.

 

It's not rocket science it's human nature.

 

You are defending it from the worse possible angle, you didn't report it at the time so it never happened or wasn't important, again I point you to the abuse cases, time isn't a factor.

 

Once an issue is highlighted, folk will come forward however important or trivial the issue is.

 

You even admit it does happen but then go on some tirade about reporting it and  then make the important issue, not the abuse itself. Very strange stance.

 

Racial and sectarian stuff has ben discussed on here loads of times as well.

 

 

[Thomaso]

4 minutes ago, Ryder said:

 

Probably best you put me on ignore Thomaso. 

 

Why's that Ryder - I asked a perfectly reasonable question.

 

I must be one of the lucky ones. I have sat in the Wheatfield (apart from hospitality) since it was opened and can genuinely say I have never heard one of our players being called a "Black" anything. Obviously that is not your experience and I accept what you say.  I am not judging anybody, however if I did hear racist abuse at Tynecastle I would certainly have sent an email to the Club or reported it to the police. 

[Mac80]

15 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

I really wish he had reported it - going by past actions the Club would have taken draconian action to rid us of any morons participating in racist abuse.

 

As Isma says his performances were effected I am really surprised that this was not picked up by CL.  If he had known about this racist abuse, which was seemingly hurting the performance of one of his players and therefore the team, I am sure he would be the first one to sort it out. 

 

I liked isma, 

 

He wasn't the best the past few weeks but could always produce a moment of magic.

 

If he had went to the club and told them about it im sure he would still be with us. 

[HopeDiouf]

50 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

I would rather he spoke to the club internally and gave them a chance to deal with it, it's poor to come out after and say this is the reason he left.

 

Yes we have a minority of racist arseholes at the club - just like every other club, no need to use an interview to try and tarnish your ex employers reputation. 

 

Indeed.  Glad he's out the door, as he wasn't as good as he thought he was, and he WAS lazy.  If he actually wanted the problem dealt with, he'd have raised it at the time.  Seems he's just having a pop at the club now he's gone.

[Hearts_fan]

It's utterly naive to suggest that reporting racism will result in the problem going away. This very report is the perfect example. 

 

Imagine the dilemma Isma had: report the abuse and risk further alienation from the very body of fans who are apparently already on your back for your performances, and some of them apparently for the colour of your skin; or get your head down and do your best in your job despite the abuse. Neither option offered a perfect solution to Isma, and he dealt with it the best way he could.

 

I cannot believe some people are judging him for this. Put yourselves in his shoes. The situation is pervasive. Reporting abuse by your own already hostile fans whilst still living in the same city, still playing in front of them? That's a can of worms not one of us would fancy dealing with. Once opened, it doesn't go away – you're suddenly now the guy who "turned on his own fans". Look at what's happening here, now? At least for Isma he is 4,000 miles away. Imagine having to still be here listening to this, and then running out in front of thousands of folk pointing the finger at you, accusing you of tarnishing the name of the club. The boy is well within his rights to send a mortar shell from afar over this. He has done nothing wrong.

[Thought Police]

31 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

 

 

Getting two two black players up Isnt racism ffs.

It’s  highly ignorant and doesn’t happen to white players

[world_3]

8 minutes ago, socrates82 said:

So that’s Walker, Nicolson and now Goncalves all going public about personal abuse from the stands. Before that Neilson and Sammon. I can’t remember so much abuse of our own people before. Wish these folk would just get a new hobby.

 

It was always at least as bad, I'd say even much worse in the past. We're renowned for being impatient when things are going wrong.

 

As for the racist abuse, unfortunately it is there, and to be heard at every single Scottish ground too. Thankfully it's now going in the right direction, but it will still take a timespan covering multiple generations before it's a thing of the past.

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Why's that Ryder - I asked a perfectly reasonable question.

 

I must be one of the lucky ones. I have sat in the Wheatfield (apart from hospitality) since it was opened and can genuinely say I have never heard one of our players being called a "Black" anything. Obviously that is not your experience and I accept what you say.  I am not judging anybody, however if I did hear racist abuse at Tynecastle I would certainly have sent an email to the Club or reported it to the police. 

 

Not a subject I want trolled on, Thomaso. Best to stop the snide stuff and not bother engaging with me. Thanks.

[Thomaso]

9 minutes ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

 

If you need an example, I made a thread towards the end of last season calling people out for being racist towards the foreign players that were at the club at the time. 

 

Sorry I was nor aware of that.  Racist abuse is certainly headline news now, and as I know the Club closely follow JKB I am sure they will now be considering their next action/response to rid our Club of these morons.

[Hearts_fan]

1 minute ago, Thought Police said:

It’s  highly ignorant and doesn’t happen to white players

 

I get white players mixed up all the time, as I'm sure everyone does!

[Thought Police]

Just now, Hearts_fan said:

 

I get white players mixed up all the time, as I'm sure everyone does!

Fair enough, I don’t hear it as much as folk confusing Buaben and Djoum

[thejts]

26 minutes ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

 

There's like a dozen or so people on this thread alone that have heard it first hand.

 

I personally haven't but given the utterly over the top criticism he got I can certainly believe it.

 

I could never understand the unbelievable abuse he got from the crowd .He was definitely one of our better players and would have enhanced the squad of every team in the league. The abuse he received never made sense to me .

 Considering some of the clowns who abused him I Always  suspected a racial element to the hatred.

Im not surprised at his claims .

The abuse some of our players recieve from our own fans is absolutely shocking . Racist or otherwise its Totally unacceptable .

Im glad he's highlighted it . It's an issue that needs addressed .

 

 

 

[Beast Boy]

12 minutes ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

 

If you need an example, I made a thread towards the end of last season calling people out for being racist towards the foreign players that were at the club at the time. 

 

I have also mentioned it plenty times on here. Probably in that very thread too.

[i8hibsh]

I get Ant and Dec mixed up all the time.

[OTT]

3 minutes ago, Jodami said:

Head in the sand mentality or worse more worried about the public perception than the racist abuse. 5 people, really? This is better out in the open and I hope there is a ton of noise so the club has to actually do something.

 

Well how many people was it? Because I don't know, and i've never heard racist abuse before inside Tynecastle, so based on my own experience it can only be a handful of people. Does that mean it didn't happen? Absolutely not. It does however infer that we have a racism problem which couldn't be further from the truth. 

 

Budge has had no problem calling out fans for poor behaviour before and had Goncalves immediately went to Ann she would have likely made a statement on it and the fans would have rallied round Goncalves because quite rightly, this type of abuse is disgusting and has no place in the 21st century. 

[colinmaroon]

46 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

So let me get this straight.

 

6 or 7 people did witness it (although not mentioned it till it became topical) and 17,000 never witnessed it yeah? so therefore we go with it?

 

 

It was mentioned way back on here.

 

Perhaps you just chose to ignore it?

 

To suggest that, out of a crowd of say 14,000, there are no racists, flies in the face of statistics.

[eddiepolio]

10 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

Probably because folk are busy and don't want to get involved.

 

Do you report every crime, do you report every piece of law being broke, speeding, throwing litter away, etc?

 

Of course you don't because it doesn't directly affect you and you probably don't have the time and forget about it until it is brought up by someone who it directly affects orit directly affects you.

 

In this case a former black player has highlighted  the issue as it directly affected him and his family

 

Think of all the abuse cases, once one person came forward many also came forward.

 

It's not rocket science it's human nature.

 

You are defending it from the worse possible angle, you didn't report it at the time so it never happened or wasn't important, again I point you to the abuse cases, time isn't a factor.

 

Once an issue is highlighted, folk will come forward however important or trivial the issue is.

 

You even admit it does happen but then go on some tirade about reporting it and  then make the important issue, not the abuse itself. Very strange stance.

 

Racial and sectarian stuff has ben discussed on here loads of times as well.

 

 

Top post. Wish I could have put it this well!

[i8hibsh]

2 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

 

It was mentioned way back on here.

 

Perhaps you just chose to ignore it?

 

To suggest that, out of a crowd of say 14,000, there are no racists, flies in the face of statistics.

 

 

OK, I will repeat (again)

 

I do not or have not at any stage deny(ied) that Hearts have racist fans.

 

I just pour reasonable doubt all over this particular incident.

 

 

[Jasonauskas]

Can’t believe that in 2018, this is still happening.

 

  I’m very disappointed that the press who would have been just behind Mrs Goncalves in the stand ignored the racism directed at her husband.

[Section G The Place To Be]

33 minutes ago, Ryder said:

 

I have witnessed several incidents of this, but no idea if any of them were the same incident as his family heard. I have mentioned it before, on here and at games.

 

I thought I had better mention the “at games” part before the next arsehole pops up with ‘did ye say anyfink at the game tho likes’. ****ing dickheads. 

 

You are aware you can report in anonymously to the club if your so outraged and offended instead of mouthing off on here calling people “****ing dickheads” 

 

It’s not rocket science. I’m sure you must know how to use a phone and are capable of finding the relevant number for the club to report it. Or maybe you think it makes you more relevant on Kickback saying you’ve heard racism for years. 

[EIEIO]

19 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

 

As an aside - that’s bullshit, but one for the shed.

Fair enough if that's your view and as you say more relevant for discussion in the shed. Have a  look at the bios and Twitter feeds of some of the heart's bans first before you discuss it though.

[eddiepolio]

I hear it EVERY game I go to. Casual racism is rife in Scottish society. 

[Haken]

This thread's in danger of becoming a mud-throwing exercise (if it hasn't already). 

 

What can the club do?  It can only react to allegations.  Once it's received allegations, it can maybe stick a few stewards in the offending area.  If those stewards witness said behaviour, the matter can be reported to the police.  But to get this started, the club needs to receive the allegations in the first place.  No doubt, to some, this will bring us into 'grass' territory.  But the bottom line for me is that if we want to stamp out racism - or other similar prejudices - responsibility starts with us.  That may  be unpalatable, or too difficult, for some.

[HopeDiouf]

13 minutes ago, Thought Police said:

It’s  highly ignorant and doesn’t happen to white players

 

You've clearly not sat beside my dad at games.  Glasses required.

[Nelly Terraces]

8 pages of shite not worth reading (bit like the article itself).

 

Anyone blamed Brexit for this yet?

[HopeDiouf]

1 minute ago, eddiepolio said:

I hear it EVERY game I go to.

 

We've found one of the culprits. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Nelly Terraces said:

8 pages of shite not worth reading (bit like the article itself).

 

Anyone blamed Brexit for this yet?

Yep  

 

[Jodami]

7 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Well how many people was it? Because I don't know, and i've never heard racist abuse before inside Tynecastle, so based on my own experience it can only be a handful of people. Does that mean it didn't happen? Absolutely not. It does however infer that we have a racism problem which couldn't be further from the truth. 

 

Budge has had no problem calling out fans for poor behaviour before and had Goncalves immediately went to Ann she would have likely made a statement on it and the fans would have rallied round Goncalves because quite rightly, this type of abuse is disgusting and has no place in the 21st century. 

How many idiots do you see spouting sectarian (and some racist) crap at virtually every away game? More than a handful. What does the club do about it? Zero. If the club was more public about taking action then it would make fans think. All I see is the slow creep of both due to no action being taken.

[Section G The Place To Be]

3 minutes ago, Haken said:

This thread's in danger of becoming a mud-throwing exercise (if it hasn't already). 

 

What can the club do?  It can only react to allegations.  Once it's received allegations, it can maybe stick a few stewards in the offending area.  If those stewards witness said behaviour, the matter can be reported to the police.  But to get this started, the club needs to receive the allegations in the first place.  No doubt, to some, this will bring us into 'grass' territory.  But the bottom line for me is that if we want to stamp out racism - or other similar prejudices - responsibility starts with us.  That may  be unpalatable, or too difficult, for some.

 

100% correct.

 

With this type of behaviour the club need to be contacted. It’s worse when we have fans saying they even know how old the people were and can describe them as it means they must know where these morons sit. 

 

Reporting it to the club will not solve the issue overnight and will never completely eradicate it but doing nothing and saying nothing makes it worse because the club has to be able to deal with it and be seen dealing with it so maybe those offending will be less likely to do so for fear of being caught. 

[McCrae]

9 minutes ago, Jasonauskas said:

Can’t believe that in 2018, this is still happening.

 

  I’m very disappointed that the press who would have been just behind Mrs Goncalves in the stand ignored the racism directed at her husband.

maybe because it didn’t happen?

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

3 hours ago, Gashauskis9 said:

 

I think there’s a few wires being crossed on this thread.  A number of folk, like me, have never heard anything from where we sit but I don’t think anyone is in denial that this happened, far from it.  I think, whether people like it or not, it’s the medium that has been used here that is splitting opinion, mainly because it didn’t allow us to support him through it as a club.

 

Having worked for the club just prior to AB I can tell you that there were no procedures at that time and any attempt to raise concerns were treated as “your problem”. I witnessed overt racism then despite players wearing “show racism the red card” t shirts on some match days. I like to think that the club has move very far from that culture but clearly nowhere near far enough. Something different is needed now to make real change and getting it out into the press is embarrassing but may be the only way to get fundamental change, similar to the #metoo situation 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, McCrae said:

maybe because it didn’t happen?

It certainly makes you a bit sceptical anyway. Black player plays race card isn’t a new one. 

[HopeDiouf]

Anyone got his instagram handle?  Shouldn't be hard to verify if his "racist abuse on instagram" claim is true or false.

[Peebo]

Just now, HopeDiouf said:

Anyone got his instagram handle?  Shouldn't be hard to verify if his "racist abuse on instagram" claim is true or false.

He may, of course, have deleted comments, or they may have been made when broadcasting on the live function.

 

In any case, why would he make that up? 

[alwaysthereinspirit]

I don't want to believe it but I'm sure we all know it happens. Absolutely no chance that in any crowd of say 14,000 there's not a racist.

[ZanderMIM]

You would think Isma would’ve mentioned it at the time or even before he left, or even mentioned it to one of his team mates because that’s quite a big issue? Strange he waited until he had left to come out about it. Not saying all hearts fans are angels either but still.

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, Section G The Place To Be said:

 

100% correct.

 

With this type of behaviour the club need to be contacted. It’s worse when we have fans saying they even know how old the people were and can describe them as it means they must know where these morons sit. 

 

Reporting it to the club will not solve the issue overnight and will never completely eradicate it but doing nothing and saying nothing makes it worse because the club has to be able to deal with it and be seen dealing with it so maybe those offending will be less likely to do so for fear of being caught. 

 

Right. Seeing as you are determined to carry on with the snidey wee sly digs.

 

I know the ages of the folk for a number of reasons. Firstly in my old seat in the Wheatfield Section B, row 12, seat 16, it mainly emenated from the same group of old men in front and to the right of me. I challenged them for it plenty of times. Would you have preferred me to have stood up walked over to them and started punching them in the face? Would that then make it acceptable to mention the incidents on a Hearts messageboard? Tell a ****ing steward, aye? The worst culprit sits in the seat next to the aisle near the exit, there’s usually a polis or a steward standing about a metre or so away from him. Also in this same section a little further down still there is a whole family of them of mixed age groups, and they are pretty much always at it too. I have commented to them about it as well.

 

In my current seat Section R of the new stand, near the top. I hear it from a couple of general directions. A group of middle-aged men a few rows behind me especially.

 

These incidents above are from Tynecastle. The worst incident was at a Hampden for the League Cup Final in 2014. Mixed large group of teenagers and middle aged men shouting “COON!” at the top of their lungs every time a black player touched the ball. That’s our players and St Mirren’s by the way. In the St Mirren team that day was Isma, he was a “COON!” repeatedly, amongst other things... along with Taouil and N’goo. I turned around and made a comment a couple of times and they were either too pished (one teenage laddie of about 16 fell over on to the back of us all at one stage, his eyes rolling around in his skull) or just ignored me. A steward came and spoke to them a few times and nothing happened.

 

Hope that’s all okay? 

[Bull's-eye]

Anybody denying they've not heard this is a liar or never been to Tynecastle.

 

Buaben gets is warming up. I've heard distasteful comments in the Wheatfield were I sat for years and I've heard it in the New stand where I am now.

Some of the abuse Larry Kingston got was off the chart towards the end of his time at Hearts and not because he'd just chucked in the towel.

 

I'm not easily offended and live with it on a day to day basis so I don't feel the need to "grass" anyone,  [mod edit - flag debate] 

 

Absolutely no place for any of that Shit at Football.

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

I have not. 

 

I am not naive enough to think it does not happen but I certainly do not want to live in a society that convicts a minority of people of a crime just because they have been accused of it.

 

I'm the same. Never heard a single racist comment about him where I sit. But i understand we have some knuckle draggers who'll not hesitate to behave this way. I can only reiterate that at Tynecastle I have never heard a racist comment aimed at Concalves.

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, ZanderMIM said:

You would think Isma would’ve mentioned it at the time or even before he left, or even mentioned it to one of his team mates because that’s quite a big issue? Strange he waited until he had left to come out about it. Not saying all hearts fans are angels either but still.

He states in the article he mentioned it to around 6 teammates. 

[jambodeek]

31 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

I get Ant and Dec mixed up all the time.

So do I ...  sometimes call them Dec and Ant