Goncalves - some Hearts fans in racist abuse claims

[Liamthejambo]

40 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

We have a dim witted, vile element in our support.

 

There is no denying it.

 

Even at the hibs game ,in a pub I was lucky to hear the full rendition of Edinburgh is wonderful except a, b and c, quickly followed by the gid auld version of hello, hello, There was also two union jack in the crowd that were singing  it.

 

It's 2018 and  the folk that say "if true" and "I didn't hear anything"  are having a jolly.

We have an element that need to go elsewhere.

 

We do seem to pick a player and decide that's it as well- in the last few years, Sammon, Prince and Goncalves stand out ( along with Robbie and the plane  stunt). I could be wrong but young Ross is getting dogs along with Djoum at the moment. I am sure both can't wait for Martin to get a game , he'll go straight in to number 1

 

We do like to have a boo boy, don't see how this benefits anyone. Craig was one result from the guns being turned on him by some.

 

An element of our "support" need to get a grip.

 

Folk will defend  their actions but it's 2018 and racism and bigotry has no place at Tynecastle at all.

The folk that feel they need to abuse certain players for whatever reason can GTF as  well- ffs they are our players!

 

 

I see no correlation between this and an element of out support racially abusing a player , The flying or showing of , a Union Jack ,does not equate to being a racist or bigot .Perhaps it’s you that needs to find a new spiritual home ? 

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

9 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Of course it is likely to be true.  But it could also not be true. Agree?

 

My heart tells me with sadness that it probably is true but the cynic in me tells me he is trying to mitigate his shite performances. 

 

This thread kinda sums up society nowadays for me and this is where I take issue.  One person makes an allegation and instantly with no thought people jump right aboard.  I don’t live like that and never want to.

There's more than one person's accusation you neanderthal.

[Zico]

Absolutely embarrassing. Both the abuse that Isma received and some of the comments on this thread. 

 

I haven’t heard any racist comments at Tynecastle in years (last one was outside the ground when I heard Mark de Vries called a useless n-bomb for missing a penalty) but I have no doubt that they are made. Our black players get far less leeway if they make a mistake or have a bad game. 

[jack D and coke]

18 minutes ago, colinmaroon said:

 

 

Well, there are fans on here who have heard it!

 

So they are lying, are they?

Just really surprised. I’ve always been in G and haven’t heard anything racist for years. 

Whos ever shouted you ****ing black anyway? Bit of a strange put down. 

[i8hibsh]

9 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

 

There's at least 6 or 7 people on this thread saying they have witnessed it first hand at Tynecastle.

 

His wife, brother and other family members have seen/heard it too.

 

 

So let me get this straight.

 

6 or 7 people did witness it (although not mentioned it till it became topical) and 17,000 never witnessed it yeah? so therefore we go with it?

[i8hibsh]

1 minute ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

There's more than one person's accusation you neanderthal.

 

 

How am I a neanderthal?

[Jambomuzz]

1 minute ago, Thomaso said:

 

EXACTLY!!

Just becuase someone has not done something about it doesn’t make it acceptable. There could be various reasons why someone didn’t say anything. It could have been a young woman that didn’t feel comfortable approaching an older man, it could have been someone that just doesn’t have the self confidence to approach a stranger and challenge them on thier views, Someone that simply didn’t know what the process was when encountering a racist at the football.

You and several others seem to be running with the viewpoint that becuase someone didn’t take action there and then, that it simply couldn’t have happened, 

[Don Dan]

4 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

 

Have you heard them shouting racist abuse at Tynecastle?  When and where do they sit??

 

 

The plea Scott reads out covers all aspects of abuse and the one I’ve heard and we have all heard is one particular group who sign sectarian songs. I never claimed I heard racist abuse. It was a general observation that some choose to ignore Scott’s regular announcement. 

[Thought Police]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

So let me get this straight.

 

6 or 7 people did witness it (although not mentioned it till it became topical) and 17,000 never witnessed it yeah? so therefore we go with it?

People have mentioned several times that the black players seem to get worse treatment than others.

 

While we aren’t talking about N-bombs getting dropped, people have claimed for a while that casual racism such as not caring if you get two black players mixed up, or screaming abuse at Isma’s touch over when someone else has a shocking touch, to when three older guys in front of me at Murrayfield did not celebrate his goal against Killie. You can hardly pull them up for not celebrating, but it makes you think.

[communist]

Hardly surprising he left. Hate to say I told you so but myself and a few others were saying at the beginning of the transfer rumours that if I were him id be looking to leave too, due to the abuse in the stands. It's shocking and Prince and Djoum unsurprisingly are under the same kind of abuse each game.

 

For those playing the "what did you do about it" chat, after being spat on at anfield (by our own fans) after telling some cretins to take the sash and Edinburgh is wonderful elsewhere, and being offered outside for square goes at Tynie, after cretins behind me trying to get rule Brittania going (section g) - I now think twice about confronting these individuals. Call me a coward but after receiving little or no support from those around me I'll think twice about confronting them again.

[Thomaso]

Just now, Mauricio Pinilla said:

 

There's like a dozen or so people on this thread alone that have heard it first hand.

 

I am amazed that these "dozen" have not posted on here about this racist abuse against one of our players - pretty big issue I would have thought.  I can genuinely say if I had heard this type of totally unacceptable behaviour I would have emailed the Club giving the section/row in the stand where this abuse was coming from. We all know Ann Budge would take robust action if she received any such reports.

 

As I said why did Isma not report this racist abuse to the Club at the time??  I am sure his family would not want to attend games where he was being abused as a "Lazy or useless B******" and not just racist abuse.

 

Anyway the horse has bolted on this one. All that is left is a (with respect) unproven and un-investigated claim from an ex player who no doubt is sore that his career at Hearts was a poor one.

[Lovecraft]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

So let me get this straight.

 

6 or 7 people did witness it (although not mentioned it till it became topical) and 17,000 never witnessed it yeah? so therefore we go with it?

 

FFS

 

Really?

 

So because the majority doesn't hear it, it didn't happen?

 

Really?

 

Do you think people can't see you when you cover your own eyes?

 

FFS

 

[Ray Gin]

3 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

6 or 7 people did witness it (although not mentioned it till it became topical) and 17,000 never witnessed it yeah? so therefore we go with it?

 

Actually mentioned after the match v Kilmarnock at Murrayfield at the time.

 

 

[Notts1874]

Let me just try to get my head round this for a minute folks.

 

So because abuse sometimes isn't reported immediately to a steward and the person then doesn't come onto JKB and post a blow by blow account it means that it didn't happen?

 

That's what some people are now insinuating?

 

I ****ing give up I really do. 

[communist]

4 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

So let me get this straight.

 

6 or 7 people did witness it (although not mentioned it till it became topical) and 17,000 never witnessed it yeah? so therefore we go with it?

 

So 17,000 people are supposed to hear and witness 7 or 8 potential racists? 

[Neverforgetfiveone]

47 minutes ago, MacPhee said:

 

I get it, its obviously true but what i dont understand is why he didnt report it to the club, so it could be dealt with internally.

 

Nice of him to go to the press and give us a bad rep. 

 

Lazy arsehole. 

100% - deal with it as a man, deal with it together and deal with it as a club! Very poor show!

[Thomaso]

3 minutes ago, Jambomuzz said:

Just becuase someone has not done something about it doesn’t make it acceptable. There could be various reasons why someone didn’t say anything. It could have been a young woman that didn’t feel comfortable approaching an older man, it could have been someone that just doesn’t have the self confidence to approach a stranger and challenge them on thier views, Someone that simply didn’t know what the process was when encountering a racist at the football.

You and several others seem to be running with the viewpoint that becuase someone didn’t take action there and then, that it simply couldn’t have happened, 

 

I would not expect anybody to approach anyone face to face. They could go to the nearest policeman and report the abuse, or email the Club making them aware of it. 

[Dr Ian Malcolm]

"Should have said something at the time rather than going to the papers." 

 

Yeah cause that's the issue.

 

Firstly, he'll have been approached for an interview. 

 

Why shouldn't he bring it up publicly? Its an absolute embarrassment (even by association, which is the real issue for the "shouldn't have gone to the papers" brigade). Given the no doubt extensive experience they'll have with being a victim of racial abuse, what's the 'correct' way he should be reacting to it?

 

A minority (which is made clear in the interview) have been called out for being backward morons by one of our own players. Trying to deflect criticism back on to him because it paints Hearts fans in a bad light in pathetic.

[fabienleclerq]

Pretty shite if true. Ive only heard the odd remark and hardly anything in a long time. Last time I heard it loudly the guy responsible was hounded out of G but that was like ten years ago.

 

Sad news but more reflective of society than Hearts.

 

Strange he waited until now to come out with it and never mentioned it to Levein etc, his family must've been in the posh seats too. I find the doesn't want to  tell anyone then speaks to the press once he's left strange.

[Beast Boy]

16 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

As I have just said it is likely true. The word likely however means there is reasonable doubt. Agreed?

 

Not to me, no. Maybe if I was one of the lucky folk on here who have never heard that sort of stuff at games, but unfortunately I have. So to me, any doubt is naturally very slender.

[Walter Kidd]

Anyone who was in attendance at St Johnstone pre Xmas knows exactly who these morons are.

[Thomaso]

7 minutes ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

There's more than one person's accusation you neanderthal.

 

I see you have a nice line of abuse yourself.

[Bazzas right boot]

5 minutes ago, Liamthejambo said:

I see no correlation between this and an element of out support racially abusing a player , The flying or showing of , a Union Jack ,does not equate to being a racist or bigot .Perhaps it’s you that needs to find a new spiritual home ? 

 

The Edinburgh is wonderful song is racist.

If you can't make the  link between people singing racist songs in a pub before a game  and then some fans abusing our own players I think you need to get a grip.

Hello, hello is also, imo bigoted,  up to your knees in fenion blood? 

 

 

 

[fabienleclerq]

4 minutes ago, Thought Police said:

People have mentioned several times that the black players seem to get worse treatment than others.

 

While we aren’t talking about N-bombs getting dropped, people have claimed for a while that casual racism such as not caring if you get two black players mixed up, or screaming abuse at Isma’s touch over when someone else has a shocking touch, to when three older guys in front of me at Murrayfield did not celebrate his goal against Killie. You can hardly pull them up for not celebrating, but it makes you think.

 

 

Getting two two black players up Isnt racism ffs.

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

Just now, Thomaso said:

 

I see you have a nice line of abuse yourself.

 

I'll abuse people all day long for being bigots.

[communist]

4 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

The Edinburgh is wonderful song is racist.

If you can't make the  link between people singing racist songs in a pub before a game  and then some fans abusing our own players I think you need to get a grip.

Hello, hello is also, imo bigoted,  up to your knees in fenion blood? 

 

 

 

 

Correct. 

 

 

[Beast Boy]

10 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

So let me get this straight.

 

6 or 7 people did witness it (although not mentioned it till it became topical) and 17,000 never witnessed it yeah? so therefore we go with it?

 

I have witnessed several incidents of this, but no idea if any of them were the same incident as his family heard. I have mentioned it before, on here and at games.

 

I thought I had better mention the “at games” part before the next arsehole pops up with ‘did ye say anyfink at the game tho likes’. ****ing dickheads. 

[Hearts_fan]

58 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Really? You think every single claim of racism is true and justified? 

 

Wowsers.

 

What do you mean "true" and "justified"?

 

It's either true or not true. Where does "justified" come into it?

[Thomaso]

2 minutes ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

 

I'll abuse people all day long for being bigots.

 

So i8hibsh is a Neanderthal and a bigot?  Nice.

[redm]

22 minutes ago, Longshanks said:

I would rather he spoke to the club internally and gave them a chance to deal with it, it's poor to come out after and say this is the reason he left.

 

Yes we have a minority of racist arseholes at the club - just like every other club, no need to use an interview to try and tarnish your ex employers reputation. 

 

Would you give an awful lot of thought or consideration on how to best protect our reputation if you were him?  I wouldn't, and as much as I hate it and it feels uncomfortable and horrible, I totally support his decision to call it out publicly from a distance. If that's how people are behaving, we don't deserve discretion and it shouldn't be discussed behind the scenes. Like jonno says above, it'll probably increase self-policing to some extent and if all these things make the racists in our support think a little more carefully about what they say and how they say it, I'm all for that too.

 

[Just realised when writing this post that we're probably not far off a "so now we can't criticise black players?" line of argument ]

 

[maroonexile]

Lazy player with a stinking attitude takes swipe at club he largely failed at in a rag that isn’t exactly known for being pro-Hearts, having not highlighted the abuse in his entire time at the club.

 

I’m sorry but this strikes me as pretty fishy.

 

For clarification, if it did happen, lengthy bans for those convicted as there is no excuse.

[Thomaso]

1 minute ago, Ryder said:

 

I have witnessed several incidents of this, but no idea if any of them were the same incident as his family heard. I have mentioned it before, on here and at games.

 

I thought I had better mention the “at games” part before the next arsehole pops up with ‘did ye say anyfink at the game tho likes’. ****ing dickheads. 

 

You weren't tempted to drop Mrs Budge an email reporting this behaviour Ryder?  You know she would very likely take action.

[Mac80]

6 minutes ago, Dr Ian Malcolm said:

"Should have said something at the time rather than going to the papers." 

 

Yeah cause that's the issue.

 

Firstly, he'll have been approached for an interview. 

 

Why shouldn't he bring it up publicly? Its an absolute embarrassment (even by association, which is the real issue for the "shouldn't have gone to the papers" brigade). Given the no doubt extensive experience they'll have with being a victim of racial abuse, what's the 'correct' way he should be reacting to it?

 

 

 

Because the issue might have been resolved and bans may have been handed out, leading to his family returning to tynecastle,  his morale and confidence being lifted which ultimately would lead to his performance levels improving and him not leaving the club on bad terms? 

[The Internet]

Unless you mentioned it on here, mentioned it to a steward at the time, and emailed Ann Budge personally, you didn't hear it and it didn't happen

[Jodami]

7 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

I am amazed that these "dozen" have not posted on here about this racist abuse against one of our players - pretty big issue I would have thought.  I can genuinely say if I had heard this type of totally unacceptable behaviour I would have emailed the Club giving the section/row in the stand where this abuse was coming from. We all know Ann Budge would take robust action if she received any such reports.

 

As I said why did Isma not report this racist abuse to the Club at the time??  I am sure his family would not want to attend games where he was being abused as a "Lazy or useless B******" and not just racist abuse.

 

Anyway the horse has bolted on this one. All that is left is a (with respect) unproven and un-investigated claim from an ex player who no doubt is sore that his career at Hearts was a poor one.

The club are absolutely hopeless with racism and bigotry, they say the right things and do very little. We have a regular group of out and out bigots who also spout racist nonsense who go to most away games who could be identified and dealt with easily if they had the inclination. They do nothing about it.

As I mentioned before there is some overt racism (generally more prevalent in away crowds) and there is the underlying suspicious attitude that several fans have to black players - lazy, not committed and of course the infamous wage thieves. It's difficult to report the latter and to be honest when I am sitting with my son watching the game I am happy to shout back at them but not massively inclined to involve stewards when I have zero trust in the club.

[Irufushi]

2 hours ago, FarmerTweedy said:

 

What a moronic response. How would someone provide evidence that they'd heard someone else say something?

 

Exactly. I don’t believe it. 

[Notts1874]

Just now, Mauricio Pinilla said:

Unless you mentioned it on here, mentioned it to a steward at the time, and emailed Ann Budge personally, you didn't hear it and it didn't happen.

That seems to be the case.

 

It makes you wonder why people are trying to deny that this happened?

[OTT]

Unfortunately when you have a large group of people in one place you get all kinds. I mean do you really think the 50,000 in Ibrox or 60,000 in Parkhead behave better? lol. 

 I really object to the way isma went about this, if he'd went through official channels I have no doubt Budge would have bent over backwards to resolve this for him and his family. These pieces of shit shouldn't be anywhere near the club and have given the media yet another stick to beat our club with (well done you ****ing idiots). 

 

The sensationalism from the media will turn the comments of likely no more than 5 people into 'Hearts fans are racist'. smh

 

I really liked Isma, but I can't help but feel this is sour grapes (not doubting it happened, but going to the press rather than speaking to the club directly seems more of a **** you to the support for not supporting him as he liked). 

[i8hibsh]

4 minutes ago, Hearts_fan said:

 

What do you mean "true" and "justified"?

 

It's either true or not true. Where does "justified" come into it?

 

 

Many people have a different definiiton of racism.  This is to say what someone is saying is racist may not actually be racist.  I know poeple that call someone a racist purely for wanting to have an adult debate about immigration.  It is therfore not justified to call someone a racist in this case.

[Mac80]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

Unfortunately when you have a large group of people in one place you get all kinds. I mean do you really think the 50,000 in Ibrox or 60,000 in Parkhead behave better? lol. 

 I really object to the way isma went about this, if he'd went through official channels I have no doubt Budge would have bent over backwards to resolve this for him and his family. These pieces of shit shouldn't be anywhere near the club and have given the media yet another stick to beat our club with (well done you ****ing idiots). 

 

The sensationalism from the media will turn the comments of likely no more than 5 people into 'Hearts fans are racist'. smh

 

I really liked Isma, but I can't help but feel this is sour grapes (not doubting it happened, but going to the press rather than speaking to the club directly seems more of a **** you to the support for not supporting him as he liked). 

 

 

This.

 

 

[Hearts_fan]

2 minutes ago, MacPhee said:

 

Because the issue might have been resolved and bans may have been handed out, leading to his family returning to tynecastle,  his morale and confidence being lifted which ultimately would lead to his performance levels improving and him not leaving the club on bad terms? 

 

A victim of racial abuse can deal with it in whatever way he or she damn likes. This was not a situation of Isma's making, and if he wasn't ready or willing to react to it while still living in the same environment then that is entirely his call to make. To accuse a victim of racial abuse of not dealing with it better is utterly pathetic, and shows a real lack of understanding of what it must be like to suffer racial abuse at your place of work. 

[John Findlay]

All right thinking people abhor racial abuse or any form of abuse for that matter. But here is the dilemma. Abhoring and taking action against are two completely different things. It takes couraget and in some cases lots of courage to take action. Why? For various reasons.

1. Simple. Who wants to be seen as a grass? That's right who wants to be known as the person that shopiped fellow Hearts supporter(s) in. It's dead easy to say on a fan'site Internet forum I would do it but, when it comes to crunch time you don't. 

2. Consequences. Say said person is charged and a date is set for court. You get a citation to appear as a witness for the prosecution. Now said person decides to plead guilty. Phew you don't have to go in the witness box. Result. But, said person pleads not guilty. Shit I do have to take the stand. Prosecution barrister is fine he/she won't give you to much of a hard time as afterall you are one of the prosecutions  main witnesses. Defence barrister that's a different kettle of fish. He/she will give you a hard time as that is what they are getting paid to do. Their client may in the eyes of many be as guilty as sin. They will know this too but, it is their job to get them off. You are a key witness. Damn right you are getting ithe tight.

3. Repercussions. They are found guilty. Your evidence played a huge part in proving their guilt. However you are known. If they escape a prison sentence will they themselves come after me? Will they come after any of my family? They get sent to prison. Will any of their family come after me or any of my family?

All the above a bit dramatic? Perharps but, it happens.

It's not easy to do the right thing. Here is the flip side. If we don't then the racists, bigots or whatever have won or are winning. There will be many more threads like this in the future, condemning, saying it's an outrage and shouldn't be happening. Guess what. You had a chance to do something about it but didn't as you lacked that wee bit courage. All right thinking people have to stand up to these people. We all have to find that wee bit courage to say that's it enough is enough. I WILL BE THAT GRASS AND I WILL SEE IT THROUGH TO THE END.

 

[Thomaso]

1 minute ago, MacPhee said:

 

Because the issue might have been resolved and bans may have been handed out, leading to his family returning to tynecastle,  his morale and confidence being lifted which ultimately would lead to his performance levels improving and him not leaving the club on bad terms? 

 

I really wish he had reported it - going by past actions the Club would have taken draconian action to rid us of any morons participating in racist abuse.

 

As Isma says his performances were effected I am really surprised that this was not picked up by CL.  If he had known about this racist abuse, which was seemingly hurting the performance of one of his players and therefore the team, I am sure he would be the first one to sort it out. 

[Jodami]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

Unfortunately when you have a large group of people in one place you get all kinds. I mean do you really think the 50,000 in Ibrox or 60,000 in Parkhead behave better? lol. 

 I really object to the way isma went about this, if he'd went through official channels I have no doubt Budge would have bent over backwards to resolve this for him and his family. These pieces of shit shouldn't be anywhere near the club and have given the media yet another stick to beat our club with (well done you ****ing idiots). 

 

The sensationalism from the media will turn the comments of likely no more than 5 people into 'Hearts fans are racist'. smh

 

I really liked Isma, but I can't help but feel this is sour grapes (not doubting it happened, but going to the press rather than speaking to the club directly seems more of a **** you to the support for not supporting him as he liked). 

Head in the sand mentality or worse more worried about the public perception than the racist abuse. 5 people, really? This is better out in the open and I hope there is a ton of noise so the club has to actually do something.

[socrates82]

So that’s Walker, Nicolson and now Goncalves all going public about personal abuse from the stands. Before that Neilson and Sammon. I can’t remember so much abuse of our own people before. Wish these folk would just get a new hobby.

[Nobreath]

24 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

So let me get this straight.

 

6 or 7 people did witness it (although not mentioned it till it became topical) and 17,000 never witnessed it yeah? so therefore we go with it?

 

 

I never mention it because I thought it was common knowledge. A bit like I never mention that grass at Tynecastle  is green.

[jockmac]

I’ve never heard racist abuse at tynecastle for years, not once. Not saying you dont get the odd comment, but out of 17,000 people, it must be an extremely low percentage.

Its not like we as a support have an active racist agenda, it’s just a few nuggets out of thousands. 

 

 

[Hearts_fan]

4 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Many people have a different definiiton of racism.  This is to say what someone is saying is racist may not actually be racist.  I know poeple that call someone a racist purely for wanting to have an adult debate about immigration.  It is therfore not justified to call someone a racist in this case.

 

Fair play. I understand what you mean now. 

[Thomaso]

6 minutes ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

Unless you mentioned it on here, mentioned it to a steward at the time, and emailed Ann Budge personally, you didn't hear it and it didn't happen

 

I'm not saying that.  After reading all the posts some have confirmed they heard racist abuse at Tynecastle. I accept that - I am just surprised that this BIG issue has not been highlighted before on JKB, and that at least some who did hear the abuse seemingly have not reported it to the police confidentially at the game, or did not inform the Club of this totally unacceptable behaviour.

[Beast Boy]

11 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

You weren't tempted to drop Mrs Budge an email reporting this behaviour Ryder?  You know she would very likely take action.

 

Probably best you put me on ignore Thomaso.