Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[BlueRiver]

14 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

Could you explain how this would apply to an independent Scotland ? 

The SNP puts up it's "plan"  , it's accepted for the purposes of an indy referendum which is then won but post indy a new Scottish govt and parliament wouldn't be obliged to deliver any of it. ?

Happy for you to cut n paste a reply on the indy thread. 

 

Gave this a bit more thought after what was quite a rushed response earlier. 

 

Again it's still based on my own thoughts but Parliamentary sovereignty and not binding your successors tends to refer to the context of passed Acts of Parliament. Therefore anything the SNP put forward as a plan would really rely on political capital to see implemented regardless as its unlikely to be enshrined in statute. If the SNP were turfed out in the first post-independence election in Scotland for some other party though, that party could quite possibly treat that as an endorsement of whatever their post-indy vision is rather than what the SNP's was.

 

Doesn't change my earlier response much but hopefully a bit of a fuller answer! 

[Cade]

A tacit admission that it's been a feckin disaster??

 

"An extraordinary cross-party summit bringing together leading leavers and remainers – including Michael Gove and senior members of Keir Starmer’s shadow cabinet – has been held in high secrecy to address the failings of Brexit and how to remedy them in the national interest, the Observer can reveal.

The two-day gathering of some of the country’s most senior Labour and Tory politicians from both sides of the Brexit debate, together with diplomats, defence experts and the heads of some of the biggest businesses and banks, was held at the historic Ditchley Park retreat in Oxfordshire on Thursday afternoon and evening, and on Friday."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/11/revealed-secret-cross-party-summit-held-to-confront-failings-of-brexit

[periodictabledancer]

35 minutes ago, Cade said:

A tacit admission that it's been a feckin disaster??

 

"An extraordinary cross-party summit bringing together leading leavers and remainers – including Michael Gove and senior members of Keir Starmer’s shadow cabinet – has been held in high secrecy to address the failings of Brexit and how to remedy them in the national interest, the Observer can reveal.

The two-day gathering of some of the country’s most senior Labour and Tory politicians from both sides of the Brexit debate, together with diplomats, defence experts and the heads of some of the biggest businesses and banks, was held at the historic Ditchley Park retreat in Oxfordshire on Thursday afternoon and evening, and on Friday."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/11/revealed-secret-cross-party-summit-held-to-confront-failings-of-brexit

I can't get my head around this.

"The highly unusual cross-party nature of the gathering of Brexit opponents – and the seniority of those who agreed to attend – reflects a growing acceptance among politicians in the two main parties, as well as business leaders and civil servants, that Brexit in its current form is damaging the UK economy and reducing its strategic influence in the world."

 

What IS "brexit in it's current form" ?

What was it supposed to look like ?

What does anyone think it's going to look like ?

If brexit "in it's current form" is damaging for business/the economy , what needs to change and how can it be changed ? Indeed, CAN it be changed ?

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

53 minutes ago, Cade said:

A tacit admission that it's been a feckin disaster??

 

"An extraordinary cross-party summit bringing together leading leavers and remainers – including Michael Gove and senior members of Keir Starmer’s shadow cabinet – has been held in high secrecy to address the failings of Brexit and how to remedy them in the national interest, the Observer can reveal.

The two-day gathering of some of the country’s most senior Labour and Tory politicians from both sides of the Brexit debate, together with diplomats, defence experts and the heads of some of the biggest businesses and banks, was held at the historic Ditchley Park retreat in Oxfordshire on Thursday afternoon and evening, and on Friday."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/11/revealed-secret-cross-party-summit-held-to-confront-failings-of-brexit

 

Next week, after a 3 day summit between ministers, shadow ministers, and top civil servants, the UK government will privately acknowledge that rain is wet, that going without roofs is not working in it's current form, and that some sort of rain prevention steps may have to be discussed at some point.

[Cade]

54 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

I can't get my head around this.

"The highly unusual cross-party nature of the gathering of Brexit opponents – and the seniority of those who agreed to attend – reflects a growing acceptance among politicians in the two main parties, as well as business leaders and civil servants, that Brexit in its current form is damaging the UK economy and reducing its strategic influence in the world."

 

What IS "brexit in it's current form" ?

What was it supposed to look like ?

What does anyone think it's going to look like ?

If brexit "in it's current form" is damaging for business/the economy , what needs to change and how can it be changed ? Indeed, CAN it be changed ?

 

 

 

 

Well, we're STILL in the transition period, as the UK government keeps kicking the can down the road on actually implementing their "oven-ready best deal in the world ever".

The EU is in the process of taking the UK government to court to actually end the transition period and Get Brexit Done.

You think things are bad now? Just wait until the transition period ends and all the tariffs and red tape get even worse.

One way to change it would be to re-join the customs union.
That instantly fixes the entire Northern Ireland question as the borders disappear again, and this also fixes all the problems at the ports.
But that would mean having to accept ECJ jurisdiction and rulings, which nobody but the swivel eyed lunatics ever had a problem with anyways.

Political independence but economic integration.

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

A tacit admission that it's been a feckin disaster??

 

"An extraordinary cross-party summit bringing together leading leavers and remainers – including Michael Gove and senior members of Keir Starmer’s shadow cabinet – has been held in high secrecy to address the failings of Brexit and how to remedy them in the national interest, the Observer can reveal.

The two-day gathering of some of the country’s most senior Labour and Tory politicians from both sides of the Brexit debate, together with diplomats, defence experts and the heads of some of the biggest businesses and banks, was held at the historic Ditchley Park retreat in Oxfordshire on Thursday afternoon and evening, and on Friday."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/11/revealed-secret-cross-party-summit-held-to-confront-failings-of-brexit

 

It's probably no harm to see that some people on both sides of the debate are sitting down together to try to think of ways forward for the UK.  Whether the effort has any realistic prospect of succeeding is another matter, of course, but at least it's a start.

[Cade]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

It's probably no harm to see that some people on both sides of the debate are sitting down together to try to think of ways forward for the UK.  Whether the effort has any realistic prospect of succeeding is another matter, of course, but at least it's a start.

 

See, the time to hold a cross party summit was after the vote to leave but before any deals were made.

Reach out, get a consensus from all parties as to what kind of Brexit to pursue and then go from there.

But noooooo, we had to have a far-right, swivel-eyed lunatic cliff-edge hard Tory Brexit.

 

They took sole ownership of the whole thing, even fighting and winning an election on the basis that "the other parties are trying to steal your Brexit".
And now it's all gone tits up and exploded in their face, they come cap in hand asking the other parties what to do?

 

 

 

Naw, this is a Tory problem.

They have no idea what they're doing.

Better to let them sit in their own filth and keep pointing out how shite the Tory Brexit is and how much damage it's doing until the next election.

 

Then once they get annihilated at the polling booth, the other parties can sit down with the EU and come to a proper accommodation, like adults.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Cade

[The Mighty Thor]

Aye but Keith still wants to make it work. It's his central policy to make sure the racist pensioners and half wits vote him in. 

 

 

[manaliveits105]

Fastest growing economy last year comrades we will get there and make Britain great again - onwards and upwards  - chins up 

[WorldChampions1902]

37 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Fastest growing economy last year comrades we will get there and make Britain great again - onwards and upwards  - chins up 

This is true when comparing the growth in annual GDP between 2022 and 2021. However, when comparing quarter-on-quarter growth in 2022, the UK is among worst-performing in the G7.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-gdp-growth-g7-february-2023/

 

You were saying??

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

This is true when comparing the growth in annual GDP between 2022 and 2021. However, when comparing quarter-on-quarter growth in 2022, the UK is among worst-performing in the G7.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-gdp-growth-g7-february-2023/

 

You were saying??

Edited February 12, 2023 by The Real Maroonblood

[il Duce McTarkin]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Aye but Keith still wants to make it work. It's his central policy to make sure the racist pensioners and half wits vote him in. 

 

 

 

Has Starmer rimmed you missus?

[BlueRiver]

16 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

I can't get my head around this.

"The highly unusual cross-party nature of the gathering of Brexit opponents – and the seniority of those who agreed to attend – reflects a growing acceptance among politicians in the two main parties, as well as business leaders and civil servants, that Brexit in its current form is damaging the UK economy and reducing its strategic influence in the world."

 

What IS "brexit in it's current form" ?

What was it supposed to look like ?

What does anyone think it's going to look like ?

If brexit "in it's current form" is damaging for business/the economy , what needs to change and how can it be changed ? Indeed, CAN it be changed ?

 

 

 

 

I think for the last aspects it means the difference between hard brexit and other forms that would've kept some degree of harmony with the EU which would've led to less red tape but ultimately meant retaining elements of the four freedoms (and we all know movement of people is a real sticking point).

[BlueRiver]

15 hours ago, Cade said:

 

Well, we're STILL in the transition period, as the UK government keeps kicking the can down the road on actually implementing their "oven-ready best deal in the world ever".

The EU is in the process of taking the UK government to court to actually end the transition period and Get Brexit Done.

You think things are bad now? Just wait until the transition period ends and all the tariffs and red tape get even worse.

One way to change it would be to re-join the customs union.
That instantly fixes the entire Northern Ireland question as the borders disappear again, and this also fixes all the problems at the ports.
But that would mean having to accept ECJ jurisdiction and rulings, which nobody but the swivel eyed lunatics ever had a problem with anyways.

Political independence but economic integration.

 

I keep seeing people on this thread saying it but the transition period is over as far as I was aware. 

 

Regardless of what's been implemented it ended on the 31st Dec 2020. 

[Cade]

50 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

I keep seeing people on this thread saying it but the transition period is over as far as I was aware. 

 

Regardless of what's been implemented it ended on the 31st Dec 2020. 

 

The UK keeps kicking the full implementation of the NI Protocol down the road.

NI is still in transition. 

 

The UK is refusing to adhere to the deal it signed and the EU is in the process of taking the UK to court to force it to adhere to the binding international deal.

[Unknown user]

19 minutes ago, Cade said:

 

The UK keeps kicking the full implementation of the NI Protocol down the road.

NI is still in transition. 

 

The UK is refusing to adhere to the deal it signed and the EU is in the process of taking the UK to court to force it to adhere to the binding international deal.

 

Have we actually started checking anything that comes in yet?

 

Something has to give, we still aren't making moves to employ the tens of thousands of staff needed for the customs arrangement for starters. I'd agree with those who say a return to the customs union looks inevitable.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Smithee

[periodictabledancer]

2 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

I keep seeing people on this thread saying it but the transition period is over as far as I was aware. 

 

Regardless of what's been implemented it ended on the 31st Dec 2020. 

"The Brexit transition is the period agreed in the UK–EU Withdrawal Agreement in which the UK is no longer a member of the EU but remains a member of the single market and customs union. During that time, it will continue to be subject to EU rules. The transition period started immediately after the UK left the EU on 31 January 2020."

 

I think the confusion is that the UK has refused to implement brexit properly/fully/as agreed  ie it refuses to carry out checks as it should at Dover & Holyhead. 

[periodictabledancer]

57 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Have we actually started checking anything that comes in yet?

 

Something has to give, we still aren't making moves to employ the tens of thousands of staff needed for the customs arrangement for starters. I'd agree with those who say a return to the customs union looks inevitable.

I've just posted on this above. 

Dover doesn't have the infrastructure or space for such checks and the govt has  never taken any steps to remedy this. Quite where it takes the UK remains to be seen as we'd be in breach of "taking back control" and our international commitments. 

[periodictabledancer]

2 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

I think for the last aspects it means the difference between hard brexit and other forms that would've kept some degree of harmony with the EU which would've led to less red tape but ultimately meant retaining elements of the four freedoms (and we all know movement of people is a real sticking point).

At risk of repeating the same old stuff - Leave said brexit would NOT mean leaving the SM.

In reality that could never be true -  if the UK wanted to stem the relentless flow of E European spongers killing our schools & hospitals , lowering our wages and nicking our houses then remaining in the SM could NEVER happen. Not least because brexit promised "be a rule maker not a rule taker" which the masses found so appealing. 

You mention "harmony with the EU" - which sounds nice but is rather vague. The reality being there could not be "harmony" when the UK govt is/was talking of divergence from the EU. The very act of leaving meant the unavoidable introduction of "red tape", a direct consequence of brexit which is here to stay. 

 

I don't see how "this" brexit could be anything else than what it is - a hard brexit. Without it , two of the central planks of the brexit argument could not be delivered. 

I don't see how "this" brexit is going to be fixed - in fact it would have to morph into a very different brexit from "this" one to fix the problems. And in the eyes of a lot of people , that would not be "brexit " at all. 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 hours ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Has Starmer rimmed you missus?

😂

 

We need more rimming IMO. ☹️

[il Duce McTarkin]

26 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

We need more rimming IMO.

 

Agreed.

[RobboM]

1 hour ago, periodictabledancer said:

 

I don't see how "this" brexit could be anything else than what it is - a hard brexit. Without it , two of the central planks of the brexit argument could not be delivered. 

I don't see how "this" brexit is going to be fixed - in fact it would have to morph into a very different brexit from "this" one to fix the problems. And in the eyes of a lot of people , that would not be "brexit " at all. 

Agreed. I came to similar conclusion that, ultimately, it had to be this ERG engineered cluster**** Brexit. I know Brexiteers struggle to own the shit they have created but for sure they would have railed against anything else as just being Brexit in name only.

[Lone Striker]

19 hours ago, Cade said:

 

Well, we're STILL in the transition period, as the UK government keeps kicking the can down the road on actually implementing their "oven-ready best deal in the world ever".

The EU is in the process of taking the UK government to court to actually end the transition period and Get Brexit Done.

You think things are bad now? Just wait until the transition period ends and all the tariffs and red tape get even worse.

One way to change it would be to re-join the customs union.
That instantly fixes the entire Northern Ireland question as the borders disappear again, and this also fixes all the problems at the ports.
But that would mean having to accept ECJ jurisdiction and rulings, which nobody but the swivel eyed lunatics ever had a problem with anyways.

Political independence but economic integration.

You're on a roll today, Cade.  Lots of valid points.   Unlike Manalive.   

 

  Just need to pull you up on the "over-ready deal" thing though - it was nothing to do with actual  Brexit nuts & bolts, it was another of BoJo's meaningless 2019 election slogans about "getting Brexit done"..... which related to getting a Withdrawal Agreement signed .... which was a pre-requisite to starting proper negotiations around the future relationship.

 

 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, periodictabledancer said:

I don't see how "this" brexit could be anything else than what it is - a hard brexit. Without it , two of the central planks of the brexit argument could not be delivered. 

I don't see how "this" brexit is going to be fixed - in fact it would have to morph into a very different brexit from "this" one to fix the problems. And in the eyes of a lot of people , that would not be "brexit " at all. 

Good post, but I disagree slightly with your last sentence on the basis of whats happened in the last year.  Polling suggests there's a wedge of folk who voted Leave who now feel the UK is on a medium-term decline - not just down to events like Covid, Ukraine and Trussballs - but the own-goal of Brexit, despite the promised land depicted by JRM, Gove, BoJo and fellow nutters.   Most obvious sign is the staffing problems in NHS and haulage industry by EU nationals leaving the country and increased costs & red-tape  of imports from the EU.     The log-jam in Parliament  under May meant that a landslide for  BoJo was the only way forward, which in turn meant a hard Brexit.

 

Imagine ordinary folk being taken in by meaningless nonsense like *take back control" and "free to make our own laws"  -  but thats democracy for you.  Of course, the exponents of it continue to hide behind Covid &  Ukraine as the real reasons for the economic decline.  Nothing to do with us, guv. 

 

So joining the CU & SM might anger the ERG nutters, but would seem to be a sensible way to improve trade, staffing  and our economic prospects.  Tories won't do it, and at the moment it seems Labour doesn't have the stomach for it either.     

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Good post, but I disagree slightly with your last sentence on the basis of whats happened in the last year.  Polling suggests there's a wedge of folk who voted Leave who now feel the UK is on a medium-term decline - not just down to events like Covid, Ukraine and Trussballs - but the own-goal of Brexit, despite the promised land depicted by JRM, Gove, BoJo and fellow nutters.   Most obvious sign is the staffing problems in NHS and haulage industry by EU nationals leaving the country and increased costs & red-tape  of imports from the EU.     The log-jam in Parliament  under May meant that a landslide for  BoJo was the only way forward, which in turn meant a hard Brexit.

 

Imagine ordinary folk being taken in by meaningless nonsense like *take back control" and "free to make our own laws"  -  but thats democracy for you.  Of course, the exponents of it continue to hide behind Covid &  Ukraine as the real reasons for the economic decline.  Nothing to do with us, guv. 

 

So joining the CU & SM might anger the ERG nutters, but would seem to be a sensible way to improve trade, staffing  and our economic prospects.  Tories won't do it, and at the moment it seems Labour doesn't have the stomach for it either.     

 

Too many in the British public refuse to acknowledge they were wrong, there are still some arguing that brexit isn't that bad.

 

The reality is that it's so bad, we still can't even put what we've agreed into action.

[Cade]

Brexit is a death cult.

 

Those that support it would rather see the Uk in ruins than admit they were wrong.

[ri Alban]

8 minutes ago, Cade said:

Brexit is a death cult.

 

Those that support it would rather see the Uk in ruins than admit they were wrong.

I hope for the same thing, every fecking day. Doesn't make me pro or anti Brexit. I hate the UK with a feck passion and if Scotland can't leave, i hope someone wipes it off the face of the earth.

[periodictabledancer]

1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

Good post, but I disagree slightly with your last sentence on the basis of whats happened in the last year.  Polling suggests there's a wedge of folk who voted Leave who now feel the UK is on a medium-term decline - not just down to events like Covid, Ukraine and Trussballs - but the own-goal of Brexit, despite the promised land depicted by JRM, Gove, BoJo and fellow nutters.   Most obvious sign is the staffing problems in NHS and haulage industry by EU nationals leaving the country and increased costs & red-tape  of imports from the EU.     The log-jam in Parliament  under May meant that a landslide for  BoJo was the only way forward, which in turn meant a hard Brexit.

 

Imagine ordinary folk being taken in by meaningless nonsense like *take back control" and "free to make our own laws"  -  but thats democracy for you.  Of course, the exponents of it continue to hide behind Covid &  Ukraine as the real reasons for the economic decline.  Nothing to do with us, guv. 

 

So joining the CU & SM might anger the ERG nutters, but would seem to be a sensible way to improve trade, staffing  and our economic prospects.  Tories won't do it, and at the moment it seems Labour doesn't have the stomach for it either.     

Our points aren't mutually exclusive.

I see what's in the polls but the English/Tory obsession with the immigration "invasion" still plays strongly, it's just we've moved away from demonising Poles & Romanians to our very own "boat people".  We're years away from even a likelihood of a seriously meaningful debate on the matter (Starmer has already nailed his colours to the mast and assuming the Labour landslide materialises at the next GE even he won't be able to do anything because the London media will crucify him). 

Joining the CU/SM is the logical way forward but it destroys the facade and fundamentalism of brexit.   And we'd need another referendum on the matter - which couldn't be held for a generation anyway. Apparently. 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

Good post, but I disagree slightly with your last sentence on the basis of whats happened in the last year.  Polling suggests there's a wedge of folk who voted Leave who now feel the UK is on a medium-term decline - not just down to events like Covid, Ukraine and Trussballs - but the own-goal of Brexit, despite the promised land depicted by JRM, Gove, BoJo and fellow nutters.   Most obvious sign is the staffing problems in NHS and haulage industry by EU nationals leaving the country and increased costs & red-tape  of imports from the EU.     The log-jam in Parliament  under May meant that a landslide for  BoJo was the only way forward, which in turn meant a hard Brexit.

 

Imagine ordinary folk being taken in by meaningless nonsense like *take back control" and "free to make our own laws"  -  but thats democracy for you.  Of course, the exponents of it continue to hide behind Covid &  Ukraine as the real reasons for the economic decline.  Nothing to do with us, guv. 

 

So joining the CU & SM might anger the ERG nutters, but would seem to be a sensible way to improve trade, staffing  and our economic prospects.  Tories won't do it, and at the moment it seems Labour doesn't have the stomach for it either.     

 

Norway has a very close regulatory alignment and trading relationship with the SM, as does Switzerland.  Both manage to maintain independent trade policies, which is supposedly what the UK wants to be able to do - have a trade policy independent of the EU.  So there is nothing at all stopping the UK from putting itself in the same position, having most of the advantages of a frictionless trading relationship with the EU and simultaneously all of the advantages of not being tied to EU trade agreements.

 

It really isn't difficult, but the Brexit cultists won't let it happen.  Why?  Their stance has to be benefitting someone?  Who?  Them?  It sure as hell isn't British voters and workers.

[Ulysses]

3 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

Our points aren't mutually exclusive.

I see what's in the polls but the English/Tory obsession with the immigration "invasion" still plays strongly, it's just we've moved away from demonising Poles & Romanians to our very own "boat people".  We're years away from even a likelihood of a seriously meaningful debate on the matter (Starmer has already nailed his colours to the mast and assuming the Labour landslide materialises at the next GE even he won't be able to do anything because the London media will crucify him). 

Joining the CU/SM is the logical way forward but it destroys the facade and fundamentalism of brexit.   And we'd need another referendum on the matter - which couldn't be held for a generation anyway. Apparently. 

 

Just to mention that it's not necessary to be a member of both the CU and the SM.  Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are in the SM while not in the CU.  On the other hand Turkey is a de facto member of the CU while not being in the SM. 

[periodictabledancer]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

It really isn't difficult, but the Brexit cultists won't let it happen.  Why?  Their stance has to be benefitting someone?  Who?  Them?  It sure as hell isn't British voters and workers.

Indeed.

There was talk last year that the benefits of brexit would be seen when "supply side reforms" were played through. Problem was, no one really asked brexiters what this word salad really meant but we begin to see it now : true divergence from the EU and the repeal of thousands of laws that so horrify brexiters. The loss of workers rights/consumer rights , in short. 

[periodictabledancer]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Just to mention that it's not necessary to be a member of both the CU and the SM.  Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are in the SM while not in the CU.  On the other hand Turkey is a de facto member of the CU while not being in the SM. 

Agreed. 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

Norway has a very close regulatory alignment and trading relationship with the SM, as does Switzerland.  Both manage to maintain independent trade policies, which is supposedly what the UK wants to be able to do - have a trade policy independent of the EU.  So there is nothing at all stopping the UK from putting itself in the same position, having most of the advantages of a frictionless trading relationship with the EU and simultaneously all of the advantages of not being tied to EU trade agreements.

 

It really isn't difficult, but the Brexit cultists won't let it happen.  Why?  Their stance has to be benefitting someone?  Who?  Them?  It sure as hell isn't British voters and workers.

Absolutely correct.  No referendum needed, imo.  Just a political backbone (and a majority in Westminster to see it through).   There has to be a tipping point somewhere, where a majority of voters agree that  economic advantage (more jobs, higher trade volume, lower costs) is more important than dogmatic nationalism, demonisng the ECJ,   and political power games - no idea how long it will be for that to happen though.   

 

On your last point, the referendum revealed some odd political bedfellows when it came to Remain or Leave campaigning - many of the Leave exponents seemed to just trumpet the same empty one-sided arguments without any explanation of why they were relevant to ordinary people with no downsides.   The commercial fishing issue was one such obvious lie - a complete dereliction of duty by Leave politicians.  They refused to even acknowledge the downside of "taking back control".

 

 

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Absolutely correct.  No referendum needed, imo.  Just a political backbone (and a majority in Westminster to see it through).   There has to be a tipping point somewhere, where a majority of voters agree that  economic advantage (more jobs, higher trade volume, lower costs) is more important than dogmatic nationalism, demonisng the ECJ,   and political power games - no idea how long it will be for that to happen though.   

 

On your last point, the referendum revealed some odd political bedfellows when it came to Remain or Leave campaigning - many of the Leave exponents seemed to just trumpet the same empty one-sided arguments without any explanation of why they were relevant to ordinary people with no downsides.   The commercial fishing issue was one such obvious lie - a complete dereliction of duty by Leave politicians.  They refused to even acknowledge the downside of "taking back control".

 

 

 

 

And right on cue, here come the nutties.   

 

 

Brexiters claim ‘sellout’ after Tories discuss rapprochement with EU | Brexit | The Guardian

 

 

[Cade]

57 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

And right on cue, here come the nutties.   

 

 

Brexiters claim ‘sellout’ after Tories discuss rapprochement with EU | Brexit | The Guardian

 

 

 

[PortyBeach]

13 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

Indeed.

There was talk last year that the benefits of brexit would be seen when "supply side reforms" were played through. Problem was, no one really asked brexiters what this word salad really meant but we begin to see it now : true divergence from the EU and the repeal of thousands of laws that so horrify brexiters. The loss of workers rights/consumer rights , in short. 

You’re right. A hard Brexit was always about facilitating deregulation of rules designed as checks and balances.

In other words, unchecked capitalism as beloved by Truss and Kwarteng and the others in the “Britannia Unchained” gang.

[jack D and coke]

Is this one of the Brexit benefits? 

EU said what they were doing here was illegal back in 2012…

Those pesky rules for poisoning everything to shit eh. 
As long as the shareholders get their dividends and the CEO’s huge salaries though😐

 

[WorldChampions1902]

22 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Is this one of the Brexit benefits? 

EU said what they were doing here was illegal back in 2012…

Those pesky rules for poisoning everything to shit eh. 
As long as the shareholders get their dividends and the CEO’s huge salaries though😐

 

A prime example of the impact of the deregulation ‘benefits’ of Brexit, Leavers crave seemingly. Can’t wait to see how those same lame brains feel when deregulation impacts their employment rights.

Edited February 14, 2023 by WorldChampions1902

[jack D and coke]

11 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

A prime example of the impact of the deregulation ‘benefits’ of Brexit, Leavers crave seemingly. Can’t wait to see how those same lame brains feel when deregulation impacts their employment rights.

The way it works for the thickos here is because they get no rights then some commie who’s in a union should get **** all rights either👍🏼😀
 

[The Real Maroonblood]

20 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The way it works for the thickos here is because they get no rights then some commie who’s in a union should get **** all rights either👍🏼😀
 

Where is the Village Idiot with his input?

[WorldChampions1902]

21 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The way it works for the thickos here is because they get no rights then some commie who’s in a union should get **** all rights either👍🏼😀
 

That’s an interesting observation and I must say, I have, over the years, noticed a certain employment ‘profile’ of many of those voicing their anti-union/Commie barbs.

[WorldChampions1902]

2 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Where is the Village Idiot with his input?

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Probably playing with it.

[ri Alban]

2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Where is the Village Idiot with his input?

He's cleaning wee Dougie's helmet.

Edited February 14, 2023 by ri Alban

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

He's cleaning wee Dougie's helmet.

[The Mighty Thor]

5 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Where is the Village Idiot with his input?

Which village?

[The Real Maroonblood]

19 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Which village?

There’s a few right enough.

[Jeffros Furios]

Lord Heseltine telling some truths to Tice and his witch on Talk TV

It's great viewing watching the few remaining Brixiteers in fits of rage 

Tice, Farage , Redwood and Reese Mogg have a 

[jack D and coke]

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: