Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Leading to No Deal on 12 April. 

 

Via 3 more votes on the Deal. 

 

Maybe.    May blames everyone else for not voting for her deal and not adopting alternative via indicative votes.    Even though government sabotages them to prevent power grab by others.

[Cade]

Jonathan Pie smashes it out of the park once again

 

*mandatory bad language warning*

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Norway + won't stand.

A couple of years ago, the EU released this handy infographic which shows that all of the UK's mental red lines leave us with basically no options other than something similar to Canada.

 

Since then, the EU has signed more big deals, most notably with Japan and even that included a change in the Japanese constitution to allow more foreign workers into the country.

Interesting. The so called "mental red lines" seem a reasonable summary of what most Leave voters were voting for. May's deal negotiated with the EU largely delivers them. Yet the Parliament that voted with an 85% majority to hold the referendum and then was elected by a similar majority to "respect the vote" is unable or rather unwilling  to deliver May's deal or anything like it.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

37 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

You're right it wasn't but that is what I am getting at, just actually state your point rather than trying be smart about it. 

 

My question was probably more rhetorical, though it wasn't intended to be insulting and I still don't believe it was but if you've taken that way then apologies. 

Thanks but no need. I am used to more than slight insults!

And I should know that trying to be smart is not the way to go on this thread.

Repeated use of the word "cluster****" and the phrase "May is a *****" is the way to go!

[Notts1874]

Think it might be a no from the DUP???

 

 

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Meanwhile

 

 

 

Cheers for the link, read the first article. Interesting reading especially the comparison between Scotland being quite content in the Union when the empire was strong and we were gaining a lot from it via access to world markets but with that gone we may now look at the EU as that new "empire" to which we may benefit most in terms of accessing more markets. 

 

Obviously the first argument against that will be that trade with the UK is currently more important than with the EU but it may be perception wise we sense a change. Or it could be bollocks but there's clearly something that differs between Scottish and English view, especially looking at that figure controlling for education and deprivation. 

[doctor jambo]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

Think it might be a no from the DUP???

 

 

That will be the DUP who are so adept at compromise and negotiation that the assembly is closed and in total lockdown over a war 400 years ago because they don't want attached to Ireland, yet are desperate to be attached to Ireland

[Jamboelite]

4 hours ago, Taffin said:

 

 If the deal wasn't considered good enough we should have left next week with no deal. Dragging it out forever is just prolonging everyone's frustration.

You cant be serious ? So because eveyone is frustrated we should just leave with no deal ? Something everyone with a modicum of sanity is saying would be a disaster.

 

Just cause it’s frustrating doesnt mean you accept the shit laid down at the table.

 

 

[Jamboelite]

double post

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Jamboelite

[Mikey1874]

DUP just want to undermine the Peace Agreement.

 

Their whole agenda aided by the stupidity of the Tories giving them the hold over the government. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Cade]

EU are saying that they're fully prepared for No Deal but know for a fact that the UK isn't even nearly ready for that situation.

It's up to the UK to prevent it.

 

 

[Costanza]

2 minutes ago, Cade said:

EU are saying that they're fully prepared for No Deal but know for a fact that the UK isn't even nearly ready for that situation.

It's up to the UK to prevent it.

 

 

We are massively prepared,  what's the worry?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/22/secret-cabinet-office-document-reveals-chaotic-planning-for-no-deal-brexit

[Watt-Zeefuik]

5 hours ago, Costanza said:

Im still waiting for the Government or one of the prominent Leave campaigners to justify:

 

A) Why bringing back the same Withdrawal agreement without material change is acceptable but another referendum when clearly the terms of exit and the implications of Brexit are clearer, isn't.

B ) Why a no deal Brexit wouldn't be anything other than disastrous for the economy 

 

I'm starting to think it might not be so disastrous for the economy. The shortages of everything from drugs to bog rolls will lead to a healthy, thriving black market. Smugglers across the Channel will face high risks, naturally, but the reward will be immense. We here in the US can attest to how much money can get poured into a ridiculously fortified border, which creates great opportunity for "coyotes" who help ferry people illegally across the border.

 

It's a boom market!

[Rodger Mellie]

28 minutes ago, Cade said:

EU are saying that they're fully prepared for No Deal but know for a fact that the UK isn't even nearly ready for that situation.

It's up to the UK to prevent it.

 

 

The EU are not fully prepared according to this article.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47661237

Edited March 22, 2019 by Rodger Mellie

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Catching up, but the EU has played a blinder here. What's clearly hasn't sunk for the ERG and DUP and other hard Brexiters is that the EU27 care far more about the ongoing viability of the EU than they do about short term trade with the UK. It can ride out a short term bump in the economy as a large periphery economy becomes suddenly disconnected; its new trading agreements with non-European countries should help smooth that.  What it can't ride out is an existential threat to the ongoing existence of the EU, which is what the demands of the hard Brexiters would entail.

 

They've protected themselves and turned it all back on May and the ERG. For better or for worse, Brexit has left the UK with almost no bargaining power at all.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Ugly American

[Mikey1874]

8 minutes ago, Rodger Mellie said:

The EU are not fully prepared according to this article.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47661237

 

Impossible to be fully prepared for No Deal.

 

A lot is also uncertain. 

[Brighton Jambo]

4 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Interesting. The so called "mental red lines" seem a reasonable summary of what most Leave voters were voting for. May's deal negotiated with the EU largely delivers them. Yet the Parliament that voted with an 85% majority to hold the referendum and then was elected by a similar majority to "respect the vote" is unable or rather unwilling  to deliver May's deal or anything like it.

Exactly - in all the chaos we have forgotten that Mays deal essentially provides what most leavers want.  By rights the parties that ran on a manifesto to deliver Brexit and respect the vote should vote for it.  But they won’t because opposition parties know by frustrating it suits their political aims without ever stating what deal they would vote for.  

 

As as much as May has had a mare I hold Corbyn in far greater contempt for not even bothering to state a position.  Total bottle job.

[Class of 75]

I was just watching the news and see that the PM has provided further humiliation by stating that if MPs don't accept her ill fated plan for a third time she has a further 7 options which they can vote on including revoking Article 50 effectively reversing Brexit. I know we all have differing views on here regarding Brexit but this a watershed for democracy. Irrespective of your views the fact that 17.4 million people voted to leave in the Referendum and there is now the possibility that it could be overturned by MPs who are disregarding this result could set a dangerous precedent. I appreciate that many on here hate the prospect of Brexit and feel that voters were misinformed and that the electorate did not know what they were voting for. I also appreciate that many see it as an 'English' issue and that it has been instigated by a Tory party on the verge of fracturing. However, if MPs are allowed to disrespect or frustrate the result of a vote it has serious ramifications for the future of democracy in all parts of the UK. 

[Class of 75]

6 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Exactly - in all the chaos we have forgotten that Mays deal essentially provides what most leavers want.  By rights the parties that ran on a manifesto to deliver Brexit and respect the vote should vote for it.  But they won’t because opposition parties know by frustrating it suits their political aims without ever stating what deal they would vote for.  

 

As as much as May has had a mare I hold Corbyn in far greater contempt for not even bothering to state a position.  Total bottle job.

Corbyn is a leaver in line with his political ideals. He is held back by his Party who wish to remain. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

20 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

I was just watching the news and see that the PM has provided further humiliation by stating that if MPs don't accept her ill fated plan for a third time she has a further 7 options which they can vote on including revoking Article 50 effectively reversing Brexit. I know we all have differing views on here regarding Brexit but this a watershed for democracy. Irrespective of your views the fact that 17.4 million people voted to leave in the Referendum and there is now the possibility that it could be overturned by MPs who are disregarding this result could set a dangerous precedent. I appreciate that many on here hate the prospect of Brexit and feel that voters were misinformed and that the electorate did not know what they were voting for. I also appreciate that many see it as an 'English' issue and that it has been instigated by a Tory party on the verge of fracturing. However, if MPs are allowed to disrespect or frustrate the result of a vote it has serious ramifications for the future of democracy in all parts of the UK. 

 

What precedent would be endangered by overturning it what was billed as a non-binding referendum, or by putting it back to another vote?

 

I'm unfamiliar with the history of UK national referenda.

[SwindonJambo]

16 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

I was just watching the news and see that the PM has provided further humiliation by stating that if MPs don't accept her ill fated plan for a third time she has a further 7 options which they can vote on including revoking Article 50 effectively reversing Brexit. I know we all have differing views on here regarding Brexit but this a watershed for democracy. Irrespective of your views the fact that 17.4 million people voted to leave in the Referendum and there is now the possibility that it could be overturned by MPs who are disregarding this result could set a dangerous precedent. I appreciate that many on here hate the prospect of Brexit and feel that voters were misinformed and that the electorate did not know what they were voting for. I also appreciate that many see it as an 'English' issue and that it has been instigated by a Tory party on the verge of fracturing. However, if MPs are allowed to disrespect or frustrate the result of a vote it has serious ramifications for the future of democracy in all parts of the UK. 

As a remainer I fully agree. If Parliament disregards the vote result, I would fully expect to see Civil Unrest in some strong leave areas in England.

If we are to remain after all, it has to be underpinned by a 2nd vote with a convincing margin of victory for Remain.

 

A small margin of victory for remain would be chaos. What happens then? A 3rd vote in say, 3 years' time?

 

[Notts1874]

Don't worry lads Uri has got this all in hand?

 

 

[Taffin]

2 hours ago, Jamboelite said:

You cant be serious ? So because eveyone is frustrated we should just leave with no deal ? Something everyone with a modicum of sanity is saying would be a disaster.

 

Just cause it’s frustrating doesnt mean you accept the shit laid down at the table.

 

 

 

 

So we'll just keep on kicking it down the road forever then?

 

As for the bit in bold, that's saying over 50% of those who voted leave don't have a modicum of sanity as no deal was always a possibility and in my opinion likely.

[AlphonseCapone]

9 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

So we'll just keep on kicking it down the road forever then?

 

As for the bit in bold, that's saying over 50% of those who voted leave don't have a modicum of sanity as no deal was always a possibility and in my opinion likely.

 

That's not even close to representing the situation though is it. 

[Taffin]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

 

That's not even close to representing the situation though is it. 

 

What is the situation then? 3 years on and we've just extended the date with, as yet, no solution to the issues people seem to have.

 

It's just a never ending farce born out of people wanting to think the UK is still some kind of power house. We can't seem to deliver a decent deal so the only option left is to leave with no deal. 

[AlphonseCapone]

2 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

What is the situation then? 3 years on and we've just extended the date with, as yet, no solution to the issues people seem to have.

 

It's just a never ending farce born out of people wanting to think the UK is still some kind of power house. We can't seem to deliver a decent deal so the only option left is to leave with no deal. 

 

It was always going to take a while. For a start the article 50 process is 2 years. All that's happened that wasn't expected so far in terms of time is an extension to either April 12th or May 22nd. 

 

The situation is a farce but leaving with no deal isn't the only option left. The Government are rumoured to be considering allowing 7 alternative options to be voted on. 

 

[Jamboelite]

30 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

 

So we'll just keep on kicking it down the road forever then?

 

As for the bit in bold, that's saying over 50% of those who voted leave don't have a modicum of sanity as no deal was always a possibility and in my opinion likely.

People voted for an orderly exit they did not vote for a **** it lets just start from scratch approach, especially one it seems we are unprepared for.

[shaun.lawson]

57 minutes ago, Taffin said:

We can't seem to deliver a decent deal so the only option left is to leave with no deal. 

 

 

**** me.

 

Just **** me. 

 

"I'm sick of waiting around and trying to get something sorted. The only option is to set myself on fire and everyone else in Britain on fire too". 

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

What precedent would be endangered by overturning it what was billed as a non-binding referendum, or by putting it back to another vote?

 

I'm unfamiliar with the history of UK national referenda.

As I remember it the referendum though technically non-binding was throughout the campaign billed as a decision  that would determine the future of the UK for generations.

Of course if the result had gone the "right" way it would have been binding. As the last one was, for nearly 45 years, This referendum was binding for about 24 hours according to Remainers.

[shaun.lawson]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

This referendum was binding for about 24 hours according to Remainers.

 

Hmm. Now why do you think many Remainers were immediately concerned about the direction of travel on the day after the referendum, Francis? 

[Notts1874]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

As I remember it the referendum though technically non-binding was throughout the campaign billed as a decision  that would determine the future of the UK for generations.

Of course if the result had gone the "right" way it would have been binding. As the last one was, for nearly 45 years, This referendum was binding for about 24 hours according to Remainers.

So you admit it was non binding then. Good lad.

[Taffin]

53 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

**** me.

 

Just **** me. 

 

"I'm sick of waiting around and trying to get something sorted. The only option is to set myself on fire and everyone else in Britain on fire too". 

 

 

You could be describing the referendum there. I didnt vote for this, but people did and they don't deserve to have their wishes ignored by parliament.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Taffin said:

 

 

You could be describing the referendum there. I didnt vote for this, but people did and they don't deserve to have their wishes ignored by parliament.

 

They do when they didn't vote for what No Deal would bring about.

[Taffin]

1 hour ago, Jamboelite said:

People voted for an orderly exit they did not vote for a **** it lets just start from scratch approach, especially one it seems we are unprepared for.

 

I don't remember that being an option on the ballot.

 

The **** it lets start from scratch approach was the only approach. It's never been done before. What did people think would happen? The EU would 'no worries, keep the good bits and be done with the rest, best wishes'.

 

Naivety/idiocy? Maybe. But it's what people chose.

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

They do when they didn't vote for what No Deal would bring about.

 

Except they did, they voted to leave the EU under any guise. One of which was no deal.

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

 

You could be describing the referendum there. I didnt vote for this, but people did and they don't deserve to have their wishes ignored by parliament.

I'm 99% sure they will get their wishes. We will leave in one form or other. If it takes another couple of years to get the best outcome so be it.

[Francis Albert]

18 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Hmm. Now why do you think many Remainers were immediately concerned about the direction of travel on the day after the referendum, Francis? 

I would guess because they wanted to remain?

[SwindonJambo]

10 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I'm 99% sure they will get their wishes. We will leave in one form or other. If it takes another couple of years to get the best outcome so be it.

 

I think so too. I can see the wrangling going on for a couple of years. There are many, many implacable remainers who refuse to accept the result and we'll see them on the huge people's vote march planned for London tomorrow.

[Francis Albert]

18 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

They do when they didn't vote for what No Deal would bring about.

How do you know what they voted for? Or indeed how do you know what no deal would bring about?

[Notts1874]

2 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

I think so too. I can see the wrangling going on for a couple of years. There are many, many implacable remainers who refuse to accept the result and we'll see them on the huge people's vote march planned for London tomorrow.

Public demonstration is a healthy part of democracy.

[shaun.lawson]

21 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

I don't remember that being an option on the ballot.

 

The **** it lets start from scratch approach was the only approach. It's never been done before. What did people think would happen? The EU would 'no worries, keep the good bits and be done with the rest, best wishes'.

 

Naivety/idiocy? Maybe. But it's what people chose.

 

Oh no it wasn't.

 

People chose controls on immigration while comically, also choosing Switzerland or Norway. People chose to leave the European Union while having literally no idea about the single market, customs union, or Irish border. 

 

If you'd taken a poll on referendum day asking voters "what is a customs union?", barely anyone would've been able to answer. That's the reality here. And because of the Good Friday Agreement, leaving the customs union should've been a total no-no from the start.

 

As we voted to leave the EU - by a narrow margin, following a campaign of electoral fraud, lies, dark money and Russian involvement - a sensible government would've immediately reached out across Parliament and agreed a cross-party approach before even considering triggering Article 50. And such an approach should have consisted of:

 

"We are leaving the political institutions. As we don't want to cut our noses off to spite our faces, we are staying in the customs union (because of Northern Ireland) and the single market (because of Switzerland and Norway)". 

 

Instead, our ridiculous government set red lines which were literally impossible to meet - and blamed Europe or Parliament for them being literally impossible to meet. This week, it's taken Europe to save the UK from the abyss. The absolute abyss. And still, extraordinary numbers of people just do not get it.

 

No Deal means food shortages. No Deal means medical shortages. No Deal means just in time supply chains collapsing. No Deal means utter chaos for business up and down the UK. No Deal means traffic jams stretching back from Dover as far as the eye can see, and well beyond it. No Deal means death: of plenty of people. No Deal means social unrest, violence, and extremism like you've never seen before in Britain. 

 

No Deal, for that matter, isn't even a thing. It's not the cliff edge. It's the strawberry jam at the bottom of the cliff after we've jumped off it.

 

Theresa May's view of it all? It's all Parliament's fault... and "the British people voted for pain". She doesn't have an empathetic bone in her body. And that she's still there is astounding, and the ultimate comment on a system which is broken beyond repair and a country which has completely lost the plot. 

 

1940 is a long, long time ago. Some people seem to actively hanker after it. You know, when "Britain was great". These people weren't even around in 1940, and know nothing of the grim reality of the Blitz, the horrors of war, dead bodies strewn all over the place very often... but from their warm, comfortable homes, they still get all nostalgic. 

 

For that matter, 1066 is a very very long time ago now too. We assume our system works because other than by King Billy, we (by which I mean Britain; the same doesn't apply to Scotland, of course) have never been successfully invaded since. So we've allowed that system to become more and more antiquated, elitist, and riddled with corruption, bad faith and incompetence from top to bottom. With the media - which is supposed to hold truth to power on behalf of the public! - completely complicit in all of that.

 

The behaviour of the UK government has been literally criminal. Holding a gun to the head of the entire country and of Parliament, and threatening to pull the trigger. After this nonsense is over, private prosecutions should be brought for malfeasance in public office. I have never seen the like of it in any Western country: including the US, given they have Mueller, and they've fully investigated corruption, collusion and interference in their system.

 

Bottom line? Substantial proportions of the British electorate - let alone its media and governing party - do not have the first clue. And the reason for that is a combination of hubris, arrogance, ignorance, and post-imperial complacency. We're not "great". We're a small island in the North Atlantic, which is currently attempting to commit suicide in front of the entire world. Thank God that the EU are, ultimately, still pretty likely to prevent that very worst of outcomes from happening. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[SwindonJambo]

Just now, Notts1874 said:

Public demonstration is a healthy part of democracy.

Yes of course. I just hope it stays orderly and civil. I was at the Poll Tax Demo in Trafalgar Square in 1990. Fun and relaxed to start with, it degenerated into a riot with looting and all sorts.

[SectionDJambo]

Saw John Redmond on the telly earlier. It’s very comforting to know that people like him are ready to rescue the UK when we leave the EU without any agreement. He’s got it all worked out and that massive 1.8% majority gives him, and his chums, carte blanche to do whatever they they think is in their, sorry, the country’s best interests.

How any normal, working person can believe a word him and his ilk say on Brexit, or anything else, is beyond my comprehension. It’s all going to be so easy for people, like him, with all their wealth, probably squirrelled away in some foreign tax haven. 

For all the obnoxious people who are in high positions in the EU, very few are as odious as him, Farage, Johnston and the rest.

[shaun.lawson]

14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

How do you know what they voted for? Or indeed how do you know what no deal would bring about?

 

Francis, dear boy.

 

On this thread, you've been wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. When some of us tried pointing this out, you ignored us, and carried on being wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again.

 

At some point, I'd have hoped this might've prompted just a wee bit of self-reflection from you. But nope. If nuclear war ever broke out, you're the guy who'd say "what's the big deal? We've not been hit yet! We can still breathe". If 50,000 people died as a result of No Deal, you're the guy who'd say "those scaremongerers told us it'd be 100,000!" You are Monty Python's Black Knight in human form, and I claim my five pounds.

 

Being a contrarian is one thing. Being completely unable to see what's right in front of your face is quite another. Remainers have been deeply concerned since Day 1 of this because they saw where this was heading. And they were right. Continually right. And still, you moan about it.

 

All in all, I can only say: a period of silence from you would be most welcome.

Edited March 22, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Notts1874]

5 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Yes of course. I just hope it stays orderly and civil. I was at the Poll Tax Demo in Trafalgar Square in 1990. Fun and relaxed to start with, it degenerated into a riot with looting and all sorts.

Helped change policy though ?. I was at the Right to Party march back in the day. Did **** all in the end but was a belting day and night out??

[shaun.lawson]

9 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

Saw John Redmond on the telly earlier. It’s very comforting to know that people like him are ready to rescue the UK when we leave the EU without any agreement. He’s got it all worked out and that massive 1.8% majority gives him, and his chums, carte blanche to do whatever they they think is in their, sorry, the country’s best interests.

How any normal, working person can believe a word him and his ilk say on Brexit, or anything else, is beyond my comprehension. It’s all going to be so easy for people, like him, with all their wealth, probably squirrelled away in some foreign tax haven. 

For all the obnoxious people who are in high positions in the EU, very few are as odious as him, Farage, Johnston and the rest.

 

This is the same John Redwood who some months back, advised investors to... move their money out of the UK. One to be filed alongside Nigel Lawson (no relation, thank heavens) seeking residency in France, James Dyson moving his offices and tax domicile to Singapore, Nigel Farage seeking German citizenship, and Jacob Rees-Mogg and the millions he makes... in Dublin. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[shaun.lawson]

9 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Yes of course. I just hope it stays orderly and civil. I was at the Poll Tax Demo in Trafalgar Square in 1990. Fun and relaxed to start with, it degenerated into a riot with looting and all sorts.

 

I would *imagine* there'll be none of that this weekend. I just hope the numbers match what this situation warrants.

[JamboX2]

8 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

That is what there is a majority in Parliament for. Basically Labour's plan albeit of course there are challenges. 

 

The path would be to agree the current withdrawal deal but change the political declaration on the future relationship.

 

It suits the EU. And matches Labour talks with EU (as official Opposition gets to talk about it's plans) over last 2 years including this week.

 

But getting it to actually happen is an entirely different matter. 

 

Matches SNP policy too.

[Notts1874]

I'm just glad that Shaun is ok after his recent twitter battles to be fair. That's what's really important here people.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Notts1874 said:

I'm just glad that Shaun is ok after his recent twitter battles to be fair. That's what's really important here people.

 

Never better.