Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Costanza]

35 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Of course the Chief Brexit Troll didn't say that. Or anything like it.

 

Anyway even the Guardian comes up with the odd shaft of light among the gloom.

 

The UK has in the last year moved up from 19th to 15th place in the World Happiness League. Of course the Guardian doesn't believe that can possibly be right.

 

And the UK has so far (even before we leave)  completed trade deals worth £47bn to replace the trade deals the EU has with third party countries, getting on for half the total value of such trade. Of course the Guardian sees this a glass half empty - it seemed mildly encouraging to me.

 

Oh and forgive a bit of schadenfreude but the German, French and Italian economies continue to teeter on the brink of recession while the UK economy continues to grow ahead of forecast.

Its 47bn out of 117bn so technically 40%.

Glass half empty seems entirely appropriate.

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

That may or may not be true. 

 

However, it’s got **** all to do with many remain voters, many on this this thread, who insists people who voted leave are thick and racists. That clearly not true. To pretent the insulation isn’t there is clearly a nonsense imho. 

 

Its one one of the main narratives through this thread!

 

I say that as ardent Remainer. Leave voters didn’t do do out of some evil intent. They did so, as they believed it was the best way forward. There intentions are no different to a Remainer; they did what they believed was best.

 

Ohh and May is completely responsible for where we are today. She has taken incompetence to new levels. She has certainly made the worst of the shitty stick she was given, 

 

Very little of that on here. But good we agree where the blame lies. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Francis Albert]

4 minutes ago, Costanza said:

Its 47bn out of 117bn so technically 40%.

Glass half empty seems entirely appropriate.

Getting on for half. As I said.

[Costanza]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

Getting on for half. As I said.

Ha ha ha.

So let's say I was in charge of supplies for a company and I was tasked with changing our main suppliers.

After 2 years and with 7 days to go, my bosses asked how I was getting on.

"Oh you know,  mildly encouraging,  40% in the bag".

I suspect they would be of the glass half empty mood don't you think?

[Notts1874]

3 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

You don’t think there are numerous posters in this thread, and the general world, who are suggestingeave voters are racist, thick, uneducated etc etc?

Some voters are. That's a fact surely. We have racists in this country. We also have thick and uneducated people in this country.

 

 

[Captain Sausage]

16 minutes ago, Costanza said:

Ha ha ha.

So let's say I was in charge of supplies for a company and I was tasked with changing our main suppliers.

After 2 years and with 7 days to go, my bosses asked how I was getting on.

"Oh you know,  mildly encouraging,  40% in the bag".

I suspect they would be of the glass half empty mood don't you think?

 

Not sure where the £47bn comes from. Best I’ve seen is £16bn, which is <14% of the total. Which is shit, and from a report last month. 

[Cade]

8 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

 

Not sure where the £47bn comes from. Best I’ve seen is £16bn, which is <14% of the total. Which is shit, and from a report last month. 

It's around £43bn out of a total of £117bn.

Swiss deal was reached last week.

Norway and Iceland and a group of Caribbean nations this week.

 

South Korea, Japan, Turkey and many other big deals are nowhere near done.

[Captain Sausage]

7 minutes ago, Cade said:

It's around £43bn out of a total of £117bn.

Swiss deal was reached last week.

Norway and Iceland and a group of Caribbean nations this week.

 

South Korea, Japan, Turkey and many other big deals are nowhere near done.

 

Not an expert, just trying to understand. Is the £117bn the trade we do with EU trade partners? If so, this £117bn is 11% of our total trade?

[Cade]

The £117bn is with non-EU nations.

This is 13.9% of total UK exports (£47bn) and 14.6% of total UK imports (£70bn).

 

All the rest (£338bn exports and £480bn imports) is EU trade.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Cade

[Captain Sausage]

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

The £117bn is with non-EU nations.

This is 13.9% of total UK exports (£47bn) and 14.6% of total UK imports (£70bn).

 

All the rest (£338bn exports and £480bn imports) is EU trade.

 

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

19 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

My thoughts remain that he's handled all this as well as he could have; that Labour's alternative plan (which the EU have praised) is a good one; that people who blame him for all this cannot do basic maths... and that Labour have to think of working class Brexiteers as well as middle class Remainers.

 

As for Watson - do not get me started.

 

[Martin_T]

.... I still find Lawson the Corbynite working class hero absurd. Who if his online persona is accurate, is a former card carrying Liberal Democrat, who grew up in leafy Oxfordshire, with a nanny, an Oxbridge education and the apparent means to go and live in South America to write a book with no apparent income in the interim.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

.... I still find Lawson the Corbynite working class hero absurd. Who if his online persona is accurate, is a former card carrying Liberal Democrat, who grew up in leafy Oxfordshire, with a nanny, an Oxbridge education and the apparent means to go and live in South America to write a book with no apparent income in the interim.

 

You’ll get a 20,000 word reply to this.

 

The fact that Lawson loves Corbyn is another reason not to vote for him.

[Victorian]

I'm not sure snoreson can be lampooned for his support of Corbyn based on his seemingly middle class existence,    seeing as Jeremy Corbyn himself had a comparatively privileged background.     

 

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Costanza said:

Ha ha ha.

So let's say I was in charge of supplies for a company and I was tasked with changing our main suppliers.

After 2 years and with 7 days to go, my bosses asked how I was getting on.

"Oh you know,  mildly encouraging,  40% in the bag".

I suspect they would be of the glass half empty mood don't you think?

No. If I had been repeatedly told we couldn't do any deals before we left and no-one would be interested in dealing with us I'd be pleasantly surprised.

[Notts1874]

19 minutes ago, Victorian said:

I'm not sure snoreson can be lampooned for his support of Corbyn based on his seemingly middle class existence,    seeing as Jeremy Corbyn himself had a comparatively privileged background.     

 

 

Snoreson says some daft stuff but my word he will fight his corner and put his current beliefs out there for all to argue or agree with.

 

Unlike one person on here( not you?)

[Unknown user]

22 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Snoreson says some daft stuff but my word he will fight his corner and put his current beliefs out there for all to argue or agree with.

 

Unlike one person on here( not you?)

I thought we'd all agreed on Shan Lawsuit?

[Notts1874]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I thought we'd all agreed on Shan Lawsuit?

Not sure I'm onboard with that?

 

He does argue his point of view unlike other retired and financially comfortable posters who see this as a point scoring game.

[Notts1874]

[shaun.lawson]

15 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Sorry but I'm going to have to bite on that.

Corbyn has been abject. Labour have been abject.

He's been continually out manoeuvred by the worst government in history and had his pants taken down by the worst, least effective prime minister that's ever drawn breath.

As this process gathers pace towards a conclusion he's a passenger. He still has no discernable plan. 

I genuinely, 3 years later, still don't know what the official Labour position is on Brexit. 

 

9 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

The current government are the most disunited I can ever recall and yet they lead all recent opinion polls. Any Opposition still behind in these circumstances is summarily useless and ineffectual. Corbyn is spineless loser. The Tories are there on a plate for him to beat yet he can’t do it. The equivalent of missing an unguarded open goal from point blank range.

 

The Peter Van Vossen of politics. He and that dreadful Momentum organisation need to be booted into the outer stratosphere and Labour to appeal to the mainstream middle ground again. Do that and they’d win an election hands down, regaining my vote in the process.

 

A few things on these two posts.

 

1. There are 327 MPs supporting the government. There's a maximum of 315 - and in practice, less - who don't. This is what I mean when I say that those expecting Corbyn to wave a magic wand cannot even do basic arithmetic.

 

2. Despite that, the opposition has inflicted more defeats on the government than Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron experienced combined. That's kinda the definition of an effective opposition. 

 

3. Some weeks back, Corbyn tabled an amendment on a 2nd referendum. It was voted down comfortably. I doubt anyone on this thread even knows this - because the media doesn't bother reporting such matters. Then of course, there was another vote on a 2nd ref: on which Labour abstained, yet 334 MPs rejected it. Response of the media? "It's all Labour's fault!" That is to say: the media cannot do basic arithmetic either.

 

There cannot be a 2nd referendum without a majority in Parliament for a 2nd referendum. Brexit cannot be overturned without a majority in Parliament to overturn it. And the reason there's no majority in Parliament to even potentially overturn it is that not enough people voted Labour in 2017. 

 

To put it another way: what, during this monumental cluster-you-know-what of a process, has Nicola Sturgeon achieved? She can't overturn Brexit because of course, she doesn't have the numbers to do so. So she can just say whatever she likes instead. And extraordinarily, there still isn't a majority for Scottish independence, despite the UK government turning the whole country into a Banana Republic.

 

4. "Labour should be miles ahead! They would be under anyone other than Corbyn!" Completely wrong, on several counts:

 

a) 2 years ago, Corbyn increased Labour's vote by 3.5m: and achieved Labour's largest increase in share of the vote since 1945. 13m people voted for an apparently "unelectable cult".

 

b) No Labour leader other than Blair has won a proper majority since 1966. The reason is because the UK is a deeply, deeply conservative country. For Labour to have hovered around 40% or so since isn't just remarkable. It's contrary to the trend throughout most of Europe, in which social democratic parties have collapsed: because they have no answers.

 

c) About 40% of the public are hardcore Brexiteers, almost regardless of the circumstances (until reality hits them with a loud thwack, that is). 40% of the public holding that position means that no, Labour should not be way ahead... and that under a more moderate leader, it would likely lose support: because the left and the working class would abandon it. Including some heading back to UKIP.

 

5. SwindonJambo's comment on Momentum is hilarious. Momentum are grassroots activists. That's it. Healthy democracies have plenty of grassroots activists. He seems to be threatened by the very idea?

 

6. Thor's comment about not knowing what Labour's Brexit policy is sums the entire thing up perfectly. The reason he doesn't know is because the most biased media in the Western world - including the BBC - won't report it. Apparently, Corbyn's supposed to magic that biased media away as well.

 

Labour's policy has remained entirely consistent since its 2017 manifesto proposing a soft, jobs first Brexit. At its Party Conference last year, it then agreed to do the following:

 

a) Vote down May's deal

 

b) Seek a general election

 

c) If a general election could not be achieved, leave all options on the table. All options. Which remains the case now. 

 

If Thor couldn't even be bothered to read Labour's manifesto or the Party Conference motion, that's kinda up to him. If Thor doesn't even know that Labour's Brexit plan has been praised by the EU as a very good compromise which would work, that's kinda up to him as well.

 

7. Finally, on the vexed question of a 2nd referendum, there's two problems. First, under our ridiculous, not fit for purpose electoral system, while a substantial majority of Labour voted voted Remain, they're all packed into safe Labour seats. The swingf seats Labour needs to win an election are full of Leave voters.

 

And second: Brexit didn't magically come out of nowhere. The underlying causes of Brexit very much include the abandonment of the working class by governments of both colours. They were left to rot and excluded from our political system. So they rose up, gave a failing establishment a long overdue kicking... and apparently, people on this thread demand the Labour Party abandons them again. 

 

Well sorry folks - but it ain't happening. The UK needs a Labour government because it will, at last, tackle remedy those underlying causes. It's almost comical to see so many Scots, many of whom left Labour for the SNP precisely because it had become so centrist ("I didn't leave Labour. Labour left me") now baying at the top of their lungs for... Labour to leave millions and millions of working class people again. 

 

I dunno where jake's got to, but there was one thing he always had more than a point about. Many of those demanding we Remain at all costs do not have the first clue - nor do they give the remotest damn - about how the working class and the poor have been treated for decades on end. Even now, the so-called 'People's Vote' (what? Did the wrong kind of people vote last time, then?) campaign is led, mostly, by the exact same idiot centrists who've never had any answers, and who led both Labour in 2015 and Remain in 2016 to defeat.  

 

I don't think they've learned any lessons at all. But I am more than a bit curious as to how so many people on this thread haven't even bothered asking themselves: "How, exactly, did we get here?"

Edited March 23, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Somethings goin' on the night..

 

Tim Shipman @ShippersUnbound

BREAKING: A full blown cabinet coup is under way tonight to remove Theresa May as prime minister

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[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Martin_T said:

.... I still find Lawson the Corbynite working class hero absurd. Who if his online persona is accurate, is a former card carrying Liberal Democrat, who grew up in leafy Oxfordshire, with a nanny, an Oxbridge education and the apparent means to go and live in South America to write a book with no apparent income in the interim.

 

Martin me old mucker, let's ignore the inverse snobbery (I never knew children were responsible for their economic backgrounds: I learn something new every day on here) and ask you a very simple question.

 

How did you vote at the 1997, 2001, 2005, 2010, 2015 and 2017 general elections please?

[Class of 75]

8 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

But are these not Remainers who voted Remain originally? They do not speak for over 17 million who voted to Leave. This is exactly what the EU wanted from the beginning, hoping that the British Parliament stumbles from one argument to another frustrating the result of the referendum.  They will be rubbing their hands at this, they have done similar in the past. 

[Martin_T]

8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Martin me old mucker, let's ignore the inverse snobbery (I never knew children were responsible for their economic backgrounds: I learn something new every day on here) and ask you a very simple question.

 

How did you vote at the 1997, 2001, 2005, 2010, 2015 and 2017 general elections please?

 

Too young in 1997, Liberal Democrat up until 2010, latterly SNP, not through any great belief in independence but because neither Labour (especially under Corbyn) nor the Conservatives hold much appeal and Lib Dem in the constituencies I live in would have been even more of a pointless vote than it was previously.

[Martin_T]

3 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

But are these not Remainers who voted Remain originally? They do not speak for over 17 million who voted to Leave. This is exactly what the EU wanted from the beginning, hoping that the British Parliament stumbles from one argument to another frustrating the result of the referendum.  They will be rubbing their hands at this, they have done similar in the past. 

 

.... And presumably you do speak for the 17 million 'mate'.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Martin_T said:

 

Too young in 1997, Liberal Democrat up until 2010, latterly SNP, not through any great belief in independence but because neither Labour (especially under Corbyn) nor the Conservatives hold much appeal and Lib Dem in the constituencies I live in would have been even more of a pointless vote than it was previously.

 

And why did you abandon the Lib Dems?

[Martin_T]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

And why did you abandon the Lib Dems?

 

Because they no longer had a fellow ginger in the top job.

[shaun.lawson]

8 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

Because they no longer had a fellow ginger in the top job.

 

 

 

In my case, at every election throughout my life, I've voted anti-Tory. Such are the vagaries of FPTP, this meant Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005; and Lib Dem in 2010. But sure, absolutely: I certainly leant Lib Dem throughout that time - and why? Because they were to the left of Labour... and also, by 2010, because Gordon Brown's government was tired and useless. 

 

At uni in late 1997, I'd already noticed that the Lib Dems were to the left of means testing, tuition fees implementing Labour. They were always miles ahead of their time on possible drug decriminalisation and electoral reform too. Until, that is, they betrayed and sold out millions by propping up a disgraceful government; and enabling their cuts. Bedroom tax, benefit sanctions, legal aid destroyed, and so much more: as well as a complete joke of a referendum on the only electoral system which is even less proportional than FPTP.

 

So I abandoned the Lib Dems in 2011 and have been Labour ever since. My journey was shared by millions of others... and in Scotland, was emulated by so many switching from Labour to SNP, because they felt Labour had abandoned them. I even wrote about this on Twitter the other week; and lo and behold. Loads of Labour supporters now voted Lib Dem in 2010.

 

So your point - whatever it was - was ridiculous. Children are not responsible for their economic backgrounds; people from middle class backgrounds are allowed to be left wing, you know; and parties' positions move around all the time. The idea that someone's supposed to have voted for the same party throughout their lives is nonsense.

 

Plenty of Corbyn supporters now didn't only vote LD in 2010, but Green in 2015. Because they felt unrepresented by Ed Miliband's Labour. So Labour listened and Labour changed. Good.

Edited March 23, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Costanza said:

Ha ha ha.

So let's say I was in charge of supplies for a company and I was tasked with changing our main suppliers.

After 2 years and with 7 days to go, my bosses asked how I was getting on.

"Oh you know,  mildly encouraging,  40% in the bag".

I suspect they would be of the glass half empty mood don't you think?

Depends on the initial expectations. Obviously. My point.

[SwindonJambo]

26 minutes ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

Somethings goin' on the night..

 

Tim Shipman @ShippersUnbound

BREAKING: A full blown cabinet coup is under way tonight to remove Theresa May as prime minister

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It certainly is. Loads of chat about it on Stephen Nolan's show on Radio 5. She's on her way. The big question is , Who next for the Poisoned Chalice?

 

Gove? Rudd? 

 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

It certainly is. Loads of chat about it on Stephen Nolan's show on Radio 5. She's on her way. The big question is , Who next for the Poisoned Chalice?

 

Gove? Rudd? 

 

 

Gove's always been my bet as a caretaker leader - because he's a Leaver.

 

My longer term bet is Sajid Javid.

[SwindonJambo]

36 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

A few things on these two posts.

 

1. There are 327 MPs supporting the government. There's a maximum of 315 - and in practice, less - who don't. This is what I mean when I say that those expecting Corbyn to wave a magic wand cannot even do basic arithmetic.

 

2. Despite that, the opposition has inflicted more defeats on the government than Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron experienced combined. That's kinda the definition of an effective opposition. 

 

3. Some weeks back, Corbyn tabled an amendment on a 2nd referendum. It was voted down comfortably. I doubt anyone on this thread even knows this - because the media doesn't bother reporting such matters. Then of course, there was another vote on a 2nd ref: on which Labour abstained, yet 334 MPs rejected it. Response of the media? "It's all Labour's fault!" That is to say: the media cannot do basic arithmetic either.

 

There cannot be a 2nd referendum without a majority in Parliament for a 2nd referendum. Brexit cannot be overturned without a majority in Parliament to overturn it. And the reason there's no majority in Parliament to even potentially overturn it is that not enough people voted Labour in 2017. 

 

To put it another way: what, during this monumental cluster-you-know-what of a process, has Nicola Sturgeon achieved? She can't overturn Brexit because of course, she doesn't have the numbers to do so. So she can just say whatever she likes instead. And extraordinarily, there still isn't a majority for Scottish independence, despite the UK government turning the whole country into a Banana Republic.

 

4. "Labour should be miles ahead! They would be under anyone other than Corbyn!" Completely wrong, on several counts:

 

a) 2 years ago, Corbyn increased Labour's vote by 3.5m: and achieved Labour's largest increase in share of the vote since 1945. 13m people voted for an apparently "unelectable cult".

 

b) No Labour leader other than Blair has won a proper majority since 1966. The reason is because the UK is a deeply, deeply conservative country. For Labour to have hovered around 40% or so since isn't just remarkable. It's contrary to the trend throughout most of Europe, in which social democratic parties have collapsed: because they have no answers.

 

c) About 40% of the public are hardcore Brexiteers, almost regardless of the circumstances (until reality hits them with a loud thwack, that is). 40% of the public holding that position means that no, Labour should not be way ahead... and that under a more moderate leader, it would likely lose support: because the left and the working class would abandon it. Including some heading back to UKIP.

 

5. SwindonJambo's comment on Momentum is hilarious. Momentum are grassroots activists. That's it. Healthy democracies have plenty of grassroots activists. He seems to be threatened by the very idea?

 

6. Thor's comment about not knowing what Labour's Brexit policy is sums the entire thing up perfectly. The reason he doesn't know is because the most biased media in the Western world - including the BBC - won't report it. Apparently, Corbyn's supposed to magic that biased media away as well.

 

Labour's policy has remained entirely consistent since its 2017 manifesto proposing a soft, jobs first Brexit. At its Party Conference last year, it then agreed to do the following:

 

a) Vote down May's deal

 

b) Seek a general election

 

c) If a general election could not be achieved, leave all options on the table. All options. Which remains the case now. 

 

If Thor couldn't even be bothered to read Labour's manifesto or the Party Conference motion, that's kinda up to him. If Thor doesn't even know that Labour's Brexit plan has been praised by the EU as a very good compromise which would work, that's kinda up to him as well.

 

7. Finally, on the vexed question of a 2nd referendum, there's two problems. First, under our ridiculous, not fit for purpose electoral system, while a substantial majority of Labour voted voted Remain, they're all packed into safe Labour seats. The swingf seats Labour needs to win an election are full of Leave voters.

 

And second: Brexit didn't magically come out of nowhere. The underlying causes of Brexit very much include the abandonment of the working class by governments of both colours. They were left to rot and excluded from our political system. So they rose up, gave a failing establishment a long overdue kicking... and apparently, people on this thread demand the Labour Party abandons them again. 

 

Well sorry folks - but it ain't happening. The UK needs a Labour government because it will, at last, tackle remedy those underlying causes. It's almost comical to see so many Scots, many of whom left Labour for the SNP precisely because it had become so centrist ("I didn't leave Labour. Labour left me") now baying at the top of their lungs for... Labour to leave millions and millions of working class people again. 

 

I dunno where jake's got to, but there was one thing he always had more than a point about. Many of those demanding we Remain at all costs do not have the first clue - nor do they give the remotest damn - about how the working class and the poor have been treated for decades on end. Even now, the so-called 'People's Vote' (what? Did the wrong kind of people vote last time, then?) campaign is led, mostly, by the exact same idiot centrists who've never had any answers, and who led both Labour in 2015 and Remain in 2016 to defeat.  

 

I don't think they've learned any lessons at all. But I am more than a bit curious as to how so many people on this thread haven't even bothered asking themselves: "How, exactly, did we get here?"

Corbyn still couldn't beat a weak government and still consistently lags them in polls.

 

He's a waste of space.

[shaun.lawson]

3 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

Corbyn still couldn't beat a weak government and still consistently lags them in polls.

 

He's a waste of space.

 

A predictable detail-free, fact-free response. The context, by the way? It's all in Labour's favour; by which I mean, it's all in the favour of a left wing, radical, transformative government being elected. 

 

The days of Blair have gone. They'll never return. And the reason they'll never return is because each generation is now poorer than the previous one; wages are below what they were in 2008, and set to remain so; people cannot get on the housing ladder for love nor money; at least 120,000 people have been killed by austerity; homelessness is at undreamt of levels; child poverty will hit 37% by 2022; and in Britain, one of the richest countries in the world, we have young women living in bins and schoolkids without footwear who need a food bank in their own school to even eat.

 

My generation, as a result, are increasingly socialist. The next generation is more so. Today's kids - also, praise be, demanding action on climate change, which is going to kill them all if governments don't get their fingers out - even more so. And all those people will never forget what the Tories have done to them and their families. Meaning a socialist government isn't a question of if, but when.

[Costanza]

18 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Depends on the initial expectations. Obviously. My point.

The initial expectations were this:

 

"The international trade secretary promised in 2017 that the government would “replicate the 40 EU free trade agreements that exist before we leave the European Union so we’ve got no disruption of trade”.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/af71b01c-1cb5-11e9-b2f7-97e4dbd3580d

[Notts1874]

35 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

But are these not Remainers who voted Remain originally? They do not speak for over 17 million who voted to Leave. This is exactly what the EU wanted from the beginning, hoping that the British Parliament stumbles from one argument to another frustrating the result of the referendum.  They will be rubbing their hands at this, they have done similar in the past. 

Well done for completely missing the big quote in the middle of the picture ?

[SwindonJambo]

8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

A predictable detail-free, fact-free response. The context, by the way? It's all in Labour's favour; by which I mean, it's all in the favour of a left wing, radical, transformative government being elected. 

 

The days of Blair have gone. They'll never return. And the reason they'll never return is because each generation is now poorer than the previous one; wages are below what they were in 2008, and set to remain so; people cannot get on the housing ladder for love nor money; at least 120,000 people have been killed by austerity; homelessness is at undreamt of levels; child poverty will hit 37% by 2022; and in Britain, one of the richest countries in the world, we have young women living in bins and schoolkids without footwear who need a food bank in their own school to even eat.

 

My generation, as a result, are increasingly socialist. The next generation is more so. Today's kids - also, praise be, demanding action on climate change, which is going to kill them all if governments don't get their fingers out - even more so. And all those people will never forget what the Tories have done to them and their families. Meaning a socialist government isn't a question of if, but when.

 

I don't need to go into long rambling detail. The Tories are in disarray, are disunited, making a mess of Brexit and all of these inter generational inequalities you describe are a very real problem. I really don't see the current iteration of Labour making any difference other than making the whole country poorer.

 

To fail to win the last election and consistently lag a shambles of a Government in polls says everything about just how useless Corbyn is. 

[Justin Z]

12 minutes ago, Costanza said:

The initial expectations were this:

 

"The international trade secretary promised in 2017 that the government would “replicate the 40 EU free trade agreements that exist before we leave the European Union so we’ve got no disruption of trade”.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/af71b01c-1cb5-11e9-b2f7-97e4dbd3580d

 

[shaun.lawson]

5 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

To fail to win the last election and consistently lag a shambles of a Government in polls says everything about just how useless Corbyn is. 

 

A last election which the Prime Minister called with her party 20 points ahead. A last election designed to destroy Labour forever. A last election which ended with the opposition just 2 points behind. Unprecedented in all of British electoral history. 

[Jamboelite]

16 minutes ago, Costanza said:

The initial expectations were this:

 

"The international trade secretary promised in 2017 that the government would “replicate the 40 EU free trade agreements that exist before we leave the European Union so we’ve got no disruption of trade”.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/af71b01c-1cb5-11e9-b2f7-97e4dbd3580d

Ooohh cant wait for the patronising response to this. 

 

i’m telling you life is better when you ignore the troll.

[shaun.lawson]

18 minutes ago, Costanza said:

The initial expectations were this:

 

"The international trade secretary promised in 2017 that the government would “replicate the 40 EU free trade agreements that exist before we leave the European Union so we’ve got no disruption of trade”.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/af71b01c-1cb5-11e9-b2f7-97e4dbd3580d

 

You might be interested in this too. With the sole exception of what he imagined would happen in Scotland, Mystic Clegg Knew.

 

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/

[SwindonJambo]

5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

A last election which the Prime Minister called with her party 20 points ahead. A last election designed to destroy Labour forever. A last election which ended with the opposition just 2 points behind. Unprecedented in all of British electoral history. 

But they still lost! Nor have they gained any ground since!

 

There are no prizes for glorious failure.

Edited March 23, 2019 by SwindonJambo

[I P Knightley]

5 hours ago, Notts1874 said:

Hey don't dismiss my Alan Partridge " Give me a second referendum you shit" post/picture as glibly as that ??

 

 

My very first thought when I read that dismissive post...

 

4 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Most people have put the blame where it is due. 

 

On the May government. 

Let's be fair, you can go back to that snivelling Etonian shite, Cameron of a large part of the blame. Absolutely not disputing that May is an incompetent back of crap and has been consistently hopeless since being handed the brown chalice but she didn't start the whole shitshow.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

 

You don’t think there are numerous posters in this thread, and the general world, who are suggestingeave voters are racist, thick, uneducated etc etc?

I'll put my hands up. There may be some of my posts where I suggest that a significant proportion voted leave through ignorance and racism. I also accept that not all leavers are of that ilk - some on here have clearly done their homework and have sound reasons for their stance - fair play. Mine is an opinion based on so many people making what I believe to be a monumentally stupid decision.

 

It's not really much different to our (JKB's) collective view of Hibs supporters. None of us was raised in a way where supporting Hibs was compulsory so we denigrate those unfortunates who think it's a good idea. We'd each privately admit to knowing some Hibees who aren't actually all that bad but the broad brushstroke is that they've all made a monumetally stupid decision somewhere in their lives.

[Class of 75]

21 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Well done for completely missing the big quote in the middle of the picture ?

No I saw it mate. 

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

No I saw it mate. 

But instead you chose to focus on something else.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, SwindonJambo said:

But they still lost! Nor have they gained any ground since!

 

The polls were:

 

Completely wrong in 2015.

Completely wrong in 2016.

Completely wrong in 2017.

 

And what do you do? You still go by the polls. Amazing.

 

Almost all polls now are based on leading questions and designed to achieve a particular outcome. We even have a polling firm whose head doubles as someone on Chuka Umunna's think tank; and other polling firms which sold data to Nigel Farage so he could short the markets on referendum night.

 

The British polling industry is all part of the same corrupt beyond belief British political class and British media. And by the way: it's so corrupt that when Labour are ahead in a poll (as they always are with Survation, the only pollster to get both 2015 and 2017 right), it's... er.... not reported.

[Class of 75]

6 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

A last election which the Prime Minister called with her party 20 points ahead. A last election designed to destroy Labour forever. A last election which ended with the opposition just 2 points behind. Unprecedented in all of British electoral history. 

What happened in the last election was that leave voters retreated back into partisan affiliations. I don't think this would happen again 

[Class of 75]

2 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

But instead you chose to focus on something else.

No I mentioned it.  That is why I said they are ignoring the 17 million who voted to Leave. I would be very surprised if they had changed their minds. As I said it was written by those who had already voted to Remain in 2016.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Class of 75

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

What happened in the last election was that leave voters retreated back into partisan affiliations. I don't think this would happen again 

 

What happened at the last election was the supposedly 'unelectable, extreme' Corbyn united the British left in a way nobody else had done in my lifetime. And it was just the start too.

[I P Knightley]

5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

A last election which the Prime Minister called with her party 20 points ahead. A last election designed to destroy Labour forever. A last election which ended with the opposition just 2 points behind. Unprecedented in all of British electoral history. 

Hi Shaun.

 

Hadn't realised you'd dropped the LibDem torch.

 

If Corbyn's "all that", how come nobody (or very few people) knows what his position is on Brexit? My judgement of him is slightly coloured by a mate who was at school with him and says he was a snivelling little turd back then. That and his consistent disloyalty to his party. And his general limp, ineffective opposition to an appalling government. And his clothes.

 

I suppose I just don't like the man

 

And he biffed Diane Abbott, ffs!

[SwindonJambo]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

The polls were:

 

Completely wrong in 2015.

Completely wrong in 2016.

Completely wrong in 2017.

 

And what do you do? You still go by the polls. Amazing.

 

Almost all polls now are based on leading questions and designed to achieve a particular outcome. We even have a polling firm whose head doubles as someone on Chuka Umunna's think tank; and other polling firms which sold data to Nigel Farage so he could short the markets on referendum night.

 

The British polling industry is all part of the same corrupt beyond belief British political class and British media. And by the way: it's so corrupt that when Labour are ahead in a poll (as they always are with Survation, the only pollster to get both 2015 and 2017 right), it's... er.... not reported.

 

He lost! He did not win! How much more simply can I explain it?

 

Any opposition worthy of the name would have a huge lead over a troubled divided shambles of a government like this one. 

 

And they don't have any lead such is their ineptness.