General Election

[luckydug]

Rudy T knows perfectly well why the SNP manifesto has been delayed.

If he doesn't then he shouldn't be making a fool of himself on this thread.

It's strange the way the opinion polls have narrowed but the cynic in me thinks it may just be the Tory sympathetic media making sure the Tory vote turns out.

[Space Mackerel]

So you admit that Brexit is going to cost Scotland billions and cost tens of thousands of Jobs?

You've got to admire Franks foresight, he's absolutely dismissed 2 full years of politics in his premonition.

[Thunderstruck]

Because Ruth, Kezia and Willie are up here campaigning at the bequest of their London masters.

Can we assume you meant "behest", O master of erudition.

[JamboX2]

Unyet if it was all sweetness and light then folk would say theres no need for Indy.

Damned if you do..,

Then it'll never come. Simple as that.

 

You need to convince the people swinging to the Tories at present to win a second vote. They aee quite content with the union and life as it is. You need to convince them by showing them how their lives could be better than it is.

 

If the SNP were to win it on the fact things are crap and the SNP they did little to protect the people they're elected to govern, then they will win on a betrayal of the voters trust that they will protect Scotland and be "stronger" for Scotland.

 

In effect if they put an ideological adherence to the sovereignty of a nation above the people, they serve no one but that ideology at the expense of the people.

[JamboX2]

Aye, ok Mystic Meg.

I'd say Brexit has a 50/50 chance of happening. Wait till the spin starts from TM (who was a Remainer btw) and says it's not worth it.

What do you expect of her? Brexit was the will of the peoples of the UK overall. Was she and 90% of MPs duty bound to ignore it?

 

Equally, should your desired outcome happen in Scotland, should the 3 unionist parties stick doggedly to that view?

[Space Mackerel]

What do you expect of her? Brexit was the will of the peoples of the UK overall. Was she and 90% of MPs duty bound to ignore it?

 

Equally, should your desired outcome happen in Scotland, should the 3 unionist parties stick doggedly to that view?

Theresa May has flip flopped her whole political career. I posted a link to her more recent ones, 9 in total I think.

 

She is anything but sure and stable. She is weak and wobbly as the hashtags now prove.

 

And strange a left leaning person would back her up?

[Doogz]

And strange a left leaning person would back her up?

You think it's strange that a left leaning person backs Brexit on the back of referendum result? Jeremy Corbyn is saying exactly the same thing.

[frankblack]

So you admit that Brexit is going to cost Scotland billions and cost tens of thousands of Jobs?

 

Nope - never said that - I said Independence was guaranteed to cost billions and a full-scale recession with jobs in major service industries moving over the border.

 

The outcome of Brexit isn't clear, but I'm optimistic on a free trade deal outcome.

[Boris]

Nope - never said that - I said Independence was guaranteed to cost billions and a full-scale recession with jobs in major service industries moving over the border.

 

The outcome of Brexit isn't clear, but I'm optimistic on a free trade deal outcome.

 

Can you show me your working, regards the economic cost of independence please?  You seem so sure of it, yet at the same time so sure that Brexit will be just dandy.

 

So, for example, these major service industry jobs that will move to England.  What are they exactly?

Genuine question, btw.

[AlimOzturk]

Tories lead being cut is pleasing and a left wing Labour party isnt such a daft idea after all. Hopefully Jeremy Corbyn keeps up this momentoun although I think it may be to late in the game.

 

If it wasn't for such a biased media campaign against him he would be winning.

[Sraman]

All you have done is made a bunch of baseless assumptions about folk like me - how do you know how I voted, where have I ever said we are better together or that we now need to pay more to be better together ? All I've done is ask how we will be better once we are independent and how this will be achieved ? If you are so confident that its the right thing for the country you would explain why rather than resorting to empty rhetoric and insulting language.

 

So you're an independence supporter then, good lad. Now stop your moaning about it and get on with thinking about and discussing the upcoming General Election.

[doctor jambo]

Tories lead being cut is pleasing and a left wing Labour party isnt such a daft idea after all. Hopefully Jeremy Corbyn keeps up this momentoun although I think it may be to late in the game.

 

If it wasn't for such a biased media campaign against him he would be winning.

Until he opens his gob and blames the UK for the suicide bombing - which he will do later today.

Like that accounts for Madrid and Berlin- both of whom have governments with almost zero foreign intervention

 

His speech will show him for what he is- an appeaser, and weak

expect this speech will reverse his gains

[frankblack]

Can you show me your working, regards the economic cost of independence please?  You seem so sure of it, yet at the same time so sure that Brexit will be just dandy.

 

So, for example, these major service industry jobs that will move to England.  What are they exactly?

Genuine question, btw.

 

For starters, pretty much all the financial services jobs are going to want to be situated in the country where the majority of their customers are e.g. England and have access to the London Stock Market.  They won't want to be in a country that has different legislation and regulations that might affect how they do business in England.  Remember Standard Life has form for threatening to do this.

 

Then you can add all the defense based industries and shipbuilding.  Will they get orders from a Scottish government for new aircraft carriers etc?  I don't think so.

 

Those are just a couple of examples off the top of my head that could affect hundreds of thousands of jobs.

[Rudy T]

Rudy T knows perfectly well why the SNP manifesto has been delayed.

If he doesn't then he shouldn't be making a fool of himself on this thread.

It's strange the way the opinion polls have narrowed but the cynic in me thinks it may just be the Tory sympathetic media making sure the Tory vote turns out.

It wasn't a dig. I know why it was delayed it was a genuine question. When are they now releasing it was probably a better way of asking. It's the one I really want to see as it effects me more than any others. I'm not naive enough to think they won't get a big majority so I'd like to know what I'm getting from them.

[Bowmans_Boot]

It wasn't a dig. I know why it was delayed it was a genuine question. When are they now releasing it was probably a better way of asking. It's the one I really want to see as it effects me more than any others. I'm not naive enough to think they won't get a big majority so I'd like to know what I'm getting from them.

Had you worded it this way in the first place then it would have been fine. Your original post came across as a dig.

[Bowmans_Boot]

To answer the question: it will be launched once GE campaigning starts up again.

[Rudy T]

Had you worded it this way in the first place then it would have been fine. Your original post came across as a dig.

Apologies.

[Maroon Sailor]

Apologies.

Good of you - but he never pulls up the usual suspects who share his political views for having digs.

[JamboX2]

Theresa May has flip flopped her whole political career. I posted a link to her more recent ones, 9 in total I think.

 

She is anything but sure and stable. She is weak and wobbly as the hashtags now prove.

 

And strange a left leaning person would back her up?

You've avoided the question I put to you. I'm not backing her various policy flip flops but on Brexit, she has accepted the will of the people in a vote.

 

I disagree with the outcome (ie leaving the EU) and the type of Brexit being opted for (EFTA makes sense to me like Norway uses), but I accept a majority of the UK backed Brexit and it is likely to happen now.

 

Equally, if Yes won I may not be delighted by it but I'd certainly accept the result.

[JamboX2]

It wasn't a dig. I know why it was delayed it was a genuine question. When are they now releasing it was probably a better way of asking. It's the one I really want to see as it effects me more than any others. I'm not naive enough to think they won't get a big majority so I'd like to know what I'm getting from them.

The SNP will hope for a Labour minority as they may feel they'll get more concessions that way. What that may do however is undermine their cause. If a UK govt starts going further than their own government and party policy in Scotland the tide of success may draw back from them.

 

What I think it would certainly do is take support off a second independence vote and away from Yes.

[Maroon Sailor]

The whole thread is full of petty name calling from both sides and yet each side thinks it is the other.

 

There is no need for it.

I agree with you - but if you are going to pull people up for having digs, pull them all up. Not just ones that don't share your political views.

[Boris]

For starters, pretty much all the financial services jobs are going to want to be situated in the country where the majority of their customers are e.g. England and have access to the London Stock Market.  They won't want to be in a country that has different legislation and regulations that might affect how they do business in England.  Remember Standard Life has form for threatening to do this.

 

Then you can add all the defense based industries and shipbuilding.  Will they get orders from a Scottish government for new aircraft carriers etc?  I don't think so.

 

Those are just a couple of examples off the top of my head that could affect hundreds of thousands of jobs.

 

And what of all the financial services leaving the London to relocate within the EU?

 

I'm not so sure that there would be a masss exodus, Standard Life as an example were only moving their head office i.e. nameplate to London iirc.

 

Defence industry - I'm sure an independent Scotland would need ships, need the capability to refit and update existing ships etc.  Maybe not anything the size of an aircraft carrier, but shipbuilding still a requirement.

 

I note you say could at the end of your post.  I thought you were sure?  Shouldn't that be would, given you said it was guaranteed?

[Boris]

The SNP will hope for a Labour minority as they may feel they'll get more concessions that way. What that may do however is undermine their cause. If a UK govt starts going further than their own government and party policy in Scotland the tide of success may draw back from them.

 

What I think it would certainly do is take support off a second independence vote and away from Yes.

 

Suits me, although I'd like to see something from Labour regards constitutional reform, electoral reform etc.

[JamboX2]

Suits me, although I'd like to see something from Labour regards constitutional reform, electoral reform etc.

All in good time. I think the Lords will go under Corbyn as will a change in the system. He's banged on about fixing our broken political system.

 

Downside is, Labour does need to win Scottish seats in irder to help get into power now. Hopefully Murray holds Edinburgh South and a few marginals swibg Labours way.

[Boris]

All in good time. I think the Lords will go under Corbyn as will a change in the system. He's banged on about fixing our broken political system.

 

Downside is, Labour does need to win Scottish seats in irder to help get into power now. Hopefully Murray holds Edinburgh South and a few marginals swibg Labours way.

 

Not really, as long as the Tories don't get a majority.

 

I'm sure Corbyn could work with the SNP if he really wanted to.

 

One other aside regarding this election, I wonder if Sinn Fein would ever take up their seats?  Given their stance on Brexit, it would make sense to be in Parliament to put their case across.

[Rudy T]

The SNP will hope for a Labour minority as they may feel they'll get more concessions that way. What that may do however is undermine their cause. If a UK govt starts going further than their own government and party policy in Scotland the tide of success may draw back from them.

 

What I think it would certainly do is take support off a second independence vote and away from Yes.

While some labour policy and their shift further left will appeal to some in Scotland. They still seem weak from a leadership perspective and Scottish Labour still disconnected from the rest of the party which will continue to worry the No voters. I suspect the SNP will have some fairly similar left policies but they cannot hide from independence. The remain die hards are getting nothing from the main parties so they then have to decide to vote lib dem or stay as a Union.

 

The SNP are probably rubbing their hands at the latest polls seeing the unionist vote being split. Had the initial forecast of a unionist rally around the Torries rung true then indyref2 would be a long distant hope despite section 30.

 

All that said I still think the unionist vote share in whatever form will increase and leave a fairly unstable environment.

 

If the SNP park independence and go about being a strong opposition and implement what they can with their devolved powers the YES vote may start to gather momentum especially if Brexit impacts in a negative way.

 

I'm back on the fence I was fairly sure I was going tory but I can't say I'm liking too much of what I'm seeing, Labour's manifesto just doesn't add up too me, the lib dems are just playing safe in the hope they get a coalition gig again and SNP are indy mad....I'll maybe just go monster raving looney party :-)

[Doogz]

So you're an independence supporter then, good lad. Now stop your moaning about it and get on with thinking about and discussing the upcoming General Election.

.

Well done your inability to understand what I wrote : i.e. I'm open to the idea of independence but want to be convinced as to how it will lead to improvements and how this will be implemented - is only matched by your ineptitude in providing any argument - never mind a compelling one- in favour of this. If you can't back up your position without resorting to deliberately misinterpreting posts then perhaps you need to spend some time thinking about why you're in favour of independence.

[Doogz]

And what of all the financial services leaving the London to relocate within the EU?

As I've said before I have concerns over Brexit and independence. Working in the IT side of financial services this is the only part of your post I have an informed opinion on. At my firm - so far at least - there have been no jobs moving from London to the EU & so far as we've been made aware the expectation is that there is enough domestic work in the UK to sustain the current level of employment regardless of Brexit. However - there are jobs currently moving from Edinburgh to both Dublin & Krakow. This is partly to increase our cover in the EU but also to prepare for the uncertainty around another independence referendum. Most of the UK domestic work is based in England so it's understandable that this will be processed out of London if Scotland gains independence.

Twice over the last 6 months I've been offered the chance to relocate to Dublin but so far I've turned this down- mainly for family reasons but there us also the small hope that we will either see a sensible Brexit or at least have another chance to vote once the negotiations are complete.

[Boris]

As I've said before I have concerns over Brexit and independence. Working in the IT side of financial services this is the only part of your post I have an informed opinion on. At my firm - so far at least - there have been no jobs moving from London to the EU & so far as we've been made aware the expectation is that there is enough domestic work in the UK to sustain the current level of employment regardless of Brexit. However - there are jobs currently moving from Edinburgh to both Dublin & Krakow. This is partly to increase our cover in the EU but also to prepare for the uncertainty around another independence referendum. Most of the UK domestic work is based in England so it's understandable that this will be processed out of London if Scotland gains independence.

Twice over the last 6 months I've been offered the chance to relocate to Dublin but so far I've turned this down- mainly for family reasons but there us also the small hope that we will either see a sensible Brexit or at least have another chance to vote once the negotiations are complete.

 

But if Scotland were independent and part of the single market, your company would not need to relocate anyone from Edinburgh at all.

[Thunderstruck]

And what of all the financial services leaving the London to relocate within the EU?

 

I'm not so sure that there would be a masss exodus, Standard Life as an example were only moving their head office i.e. nameplate to London iirc.

 

Defence industry - I'm sure an independent Scotland would need ships, need the capability to refit and update existing ships etc. Maybe not anything the size of an aircraft carrier, but shipbuilding still a requirement.

 

I note you say could at the end of your post. I thought you were sure? Shouldn't that be would, given you said it was guaranteed?

Defence Industry - see this link:

 

https://rusi.org/rusi-news/blue-bonnets-defending-independent-scotland

 

That was written in 2012 when economic prospects for an independent Scotland were, shall we say, brighter. Nevertheless, the paper does not paint a picture where the loss of UK defence spending would be replaced by local spending.

 

One arm of the services - the Navy - is alone responsible for 15% of Scotland's industrial output. Add the other services and downstream employment and you are looking at a sizeable jolt to the economy.

 

If you don't believe me, read the SNP output on the effect of closures such as Kinloss.

[Don Dan]

https://vid.me/7ZWA

 

How embarrassing what a horrible creature she is.

[Maroon Sailor]

https://vid.me/7ZWA

How embarrassing what a horrible creature she is.

I'm sure Nicola will be very proud

[Doogz]

But if Scotland were independent and part of the single market, your company would not need to relocate anyone from Edinburgh at all.

That is true.... but Scotland independent and part of the single market isn't an option (& never was). How quickly do you think Scotland can become independent from the UK and rejoin the single market? 5 years time sounds hugely ambitious to me at the moment - and even that is too long. Once these jobs go - they will not come back unless Scotland offers bigger incentives to invest than Dublin currently do .... and by then most if the people with skills and experience will have already moved on.

[Boris]

That is true.... but Scotland independent and part of the single market isn't an option (& never was). How quickly do you think Scotland can become independent from the UK and rejoin the single market? 5 years time sounds hugely ambitious to me at the moment - and even that is too long. Once these jobs go - they will not come back unless Scotland offers bigger incentives to invest than Dublin currently do .... and by then most if the people with skills and experience will have already moved on.

 

If Westminster allowed a referendum prior to Brexit, so Scotland coould retain it's EU status...

[Doogz]

If Westminster allowed a referendum prior to Brexit, so Scotland coould retain it's EU status...

Once again - If - but it's not an option Westminster will offer and not something the EU would consider. Do you really think this is a realistic option?

[Boris]

Once again - If - but it's not an option Westminster will offer and not something the EU would consider. Do you really think this is a realistic option?

 

If westmeinster allowed it, then yes.

 

But there is the problem.  Not independence, but Westminster.  If the ship's going down, May's taking us all with her!

[Doogz]

If westmeinster allowed it, then yes.

 

But there is the problem. Not independence, but Westminster. If the ship's going down, May's taking us all with her!

The EU won't consider it either so it's not an option.

[Thunderstruck]

If westmeinster allowed it, then yes.

 

But there is the problem. Not independence, but Westminster. If the ship's going down, May's taking us all with her!

Only problem with that is that talk of a sinking ship is just a tad hyperbolic, perhaps even wishful thinking. The ship hasn't even sailed, it has full watertight integrity, no course has been planned and there is no imminent danger of foundering.

 

Why would you take to the lifeboats when you have a perfectly serviceable ship? IIRC, that was lesson 1 on the Sea Survival Course - fight to keep your ship afloat.

 

Why would Scotland abandon its most significant single market for a smaller, less valuable single market - one that might not even welcome these shipwrecked mariners.

 

All you can say at the moment is that there are a range of possibilities and the deal that Scotland would need to make good the loss of the UK single market would not sit terribly well in certain parts of Europe.

[JamboX2]

If westmeinster allowed it, then yes.

 

But there is the problem. Not independence, but Westminster. If the ship's going down, May's taking us all with her!

Sorry Boris. It'd weaken and distract the UK govt from Brexit negotiations which have to be the governing priority at this point. Equally, the EU could not and should not agree to it. Imagine mid-Brexit talks the EU officially saying Scotland would walk in with no negotiating required. Beggars belief really.

 

Both the EU and UK govt will not want further difficulties and distractions through this process.

[Don Dan]

Another attack. Sort of blows Corbyns claim out of the water that we've exacerbated the terror attacks.

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-gunmen-attack-christians-killing-at-least-23/?utm_source=The+Times+of+Israel+Daily+Edition&utm_campaign=0ce6831c07-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_26&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_adb46cec92-0ce6831c07-54885601

[Boris]

Only problem with that is that talk of a sinking ship is just a tad hyperbolic, perhaps even wishful thinking. The ship hasn't even sailed, it has full watertight integrity, no course has been planned and there is no imminent danger of foundering.

 

Why would you take to the lifeboats when you have a perfectly serviceable ship? IIRC, that was lesson 1 on the Sea Survival Course - fight to keep your ship afloat.

 

Why would Scotland abandon its most significant single market for a smaller, less valuable single market - one that might not even welcome these shipwrecked mariners.

 

All you can say at the moment is that there are a range of possibilities and the deal that Scotland would need to make good the loss of the UK single market would not sit terribly well in certain parts of Europe.

 

So it is wrong for Scotland to leave it's biggest single market, but ok for the UK to do so?

 

I'm also not sure trade would stop bewteen Scotland and rUK immediately anyway.  But there you go.

 

Sorry Boris. It'd weaken and distract the UK govt from Brexit negotiations which have to be the governing priority at this point. Equally, the EU could not and should not agree to it. Imagine mid-Brexit talks the EU officially saying Scotland would walk in with no negotiating required. Beggars belief really.

 

Both the EU and UK govt will not want further difficulties and distractions through this process.

 

I'm sure the EU would keep a dignified silence.  I did mention single market rather than EU though (I think!) so you have EFTA too.  Obviously the UK govt wouldn't want the distraction!

[Boris]

Another attack. Sort of blows Corbyns claim out of the water that we've exacerbated the terror attacks.

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-gunmen-attack-christians-killing-at-least-23/?utm_source=The+Times+of+Israel+Daily+Edition&utm_campaign=0ce6831c07-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_26&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_adb46cec92-0ce6831c07-54885601

 

No it doesn't.  Our involvement in foreign wars has made London, Paris, New York, etc etc targets.  That is his point.

[Don Dan]

No it doesn't. Our involvement in foreign wars has made London, Paris, New York, etc etc targets. That is his point.

What about Sweden? They've bombed the crap out off..... well nobody but they still attract terrorists to this day. Corbyn needs to re evaluate his speech he made today. There's far more to it than he's making it out to be.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[luckydug]

Good of you - but he never pulls up the usual suspects who share his political views for having digs.

 

Who are you talking about ?

Possibly yourself ?

I pulled up Rudy T because I felt he was out of order and clearly knew perfectly well why the SNP manifesto had been delayed.

I can understand how you are so twitchy though to see a 23 point lead in the polls more or less disappear will have right wingers like yourself foaming at the mouth. Imagine it an SNP and Labour coalition.?

[Maroon Sailor]

Who are you talking about ?

Possibly yourself ?

I pulled up Rudy T because I felt he was out of order and clearly knew perfectly well why the SNP manifesto had been delayed.

I can understand how you are so twitchy though to see a 23 point lead in the polls more or less disappear will have right wingers like yourself foaming at the mouth. Imagine it an SNP and Labour coalition.?

Course he knew but you also knew what he meant.

[Maroon Sailor]

By the way luckydug who is the SNP candidate in your constituency ?

[Thunderstruck]

So it is wrong for Scotland to leave it's biggest single market, but ok for the UK to do so?

 

I'm also not sure trade would stop bewteen Scotland and rUK immediately anyway. But there you go.

 

 

I didn't say it was right or sensible for the UK to leave EU and my stance throughout is that the U.K. is stronger in EU and Scotland is stronger in the U.K. -internationalist not nationalist. We do, however, have a democratic vote in favour of quitting the EU so process needs to be followed.

 

Doesn't the second paragraph quoted highlight some selective reasoning - the UK leaving EU will be disastrous but Scotland leaving U.K. will be just fine as trade wouldn't stop.

 

At this point in time there is no way of knowing what will happen in either scenario other than an odds on bet that Scotland would struggle to plug the defence spending which would relocate south of Carlisle.

[Rudolf's Mate]

No surprise really...

 

Tories and Labour not being honest with voters: IFS

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40057115

[JamboX2]

Another attack. Sort of blows Corbyns claim out of the water that we've exacerbated the terror attacks.

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-gunmen-attack-christians-killing-at-least-23/?utm_source=The+Times+of+Israel+Daily+Edition&utm_campaign=0ce6831c07-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_26&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_adb46cec92-0ce6831c07-54885601

To be fair, our removal of the dictators who kept these terrorist and fundamentalist groups down in Iraq, Libya and Syria has a lot to do with creating an environment where these guys both thrive and are able to operate freely in.

 

Not to mention our support of Saudia Arabia which backs a lot of these guys and in turn forces Iran to back their own terror groups in a regional proxy war.

 

A change of direction is needed to combat this.

[JamboX2]

No surprise really...

 

Tories and Labour not being honest with voters: IFS

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40057115

To be honest, the IFS has kinda been advocating corporation tax cuts and cuts in the tax burden of the wealthiest for some time. No surprise they've said both manifestos aren't in their eyes much use.

 

They back a smaller state and lower tax. Not surprising they think Labour is bad here. Equally the vagueness of the Tory position and an adherence to austerity will hit spending ability of people which the IFS is opposed to as well.