General Election

[JamboX2]

This just goes in circles. Assuming their one policy was anti-independence the fact they picked up so many seats (in relative terms) tells you the mood of the nation. Sturgeon jumped in with indy ref2 and it all kicked off. Ironically indyref2 probably won the election (again in terms of seats) for the torries. Had those tory seats gone any other way May would be out on her erchie. It's a shambolic mess created by politicians one upmanship and self interest.

Also blows a hole in vote SNP for a minority Labour government mind. Folk voted Tory and got a Tory government.

[Rudy T]

Interestingly, it could also be said that some independence supporters gave Tories their gains in Scotland.

 

It appears that many who back indy and voted SNP last time, opted for Corbyn and Labour - reducing the SNP vote even more and helping the Tories over the line.

 

I'd be vary of suggesting that support for independence has collapsed. There's people who don't necessarily want a referendum, that would still vote yes if there was one. Similarly, the SNP only ever managed to get 11 seats at WM (in 1974!) until 2015, even when independence was higher in the polls. Yet they still managed to win a majority of seats and be the third biggest party in the UK (completely unthinkable only 3 years ago).

 

My argument is that, if this were 2014 just hours after the referendum and somebody said, this is what will transpire over the next 3 years... I think the majority of independence supporters/SNP supporters would be pretty chuffed.

They should have another Brexit vote. If it's remain then the games end. If it's leave again then give the SNP indyref2 now. Let's just get it over with asap. The constant state of flux is just making life more difficult on everyone!

[Toggie88]

You do realise that if we were independent the welfare changes made since 2010 would be in place on independence and if you wanted to reverse them you'd need to spend funds and take them from elsewhere to correct them.

 

 

And you do realise that we would have control of the economic levers needed to improve our national balance sheet...

 

We could rehash the independence debate if you want, but I thought last Thursday showed nobody wanted that? 

[deesidejambo]

Interestingly, it could also be said that some independence supporters gave Tories their gains in Scotland. 

 

It appears that many who back indy and voted SNP last time, opted for Corbyn and Labour - reducing the SNP vote even more and helping the Tories over the line. 

 

I'd be vary of suggesting that support for independence has collapsed. There's people who don't necessarily want a referendum, that would still vote yes if there was one. Similarly, the SNP only ever managed to get 11 seats at WM (in 1974!) until 2015, even when independence was higher in the polls. Yet they still managed to win a majority of seats and be the third biggest party in the UK (completely unthinkable only 3 years ago). 

 

My argument is that, if this were 2014 just hours after the referendum and somebody said, this is what will transpire over the next 3 years... I think the majority of independence supporters/SNP supporters would be pretty chuffed. 

 

 

Only one way to find out   -  IndyRef2!!!!!    Let the divisiveness and pain for Scotland continue!

[deesidejambo]

They should have another Brexit vote. If it's remain then the games end. If it's leave again then give the SNP indyref2 now. Let's just get it over with asap. The constant state of flux is just making life more difficult on everyone!

 

Thats the way it will be.  The Nats will never drop their threat of indy.   Sword of Damocles over Scotland.

[Boris]

yup.

 

The Tory seats in Scotland all came thanks to Nicola shooting her load too quickly.

 

Now she is stuck with Indy2 which she will get pummelled on, leading to Independence being kicked out for a generation.

 

Nice one Nicola.

Not entirely...

 

Wait and see what form brexit takes. If it is a hard brexit then indy2 will eventually happen.

 

A softer brexit with tariff free trading, then who knows. Sturgeon could argue that's why it was called, regards access to eu single market. Get that from brexit and she'll climb down and save (some) face at the same time.

[deesidejambo]

Not entirely...

 

Wait and see what form brexit takes. If it is a hard brexit then indy2 will eventually happen.

 

A softer brexit with tariff free trading, then who knows. Sturgeon could argue that's why it was called, regards access to eu single market. Get that from brexit and she'll climb down and save (some) face at the same time.

 

If she's smart enough that will happen.    She has a "get out".       But she already demonstrated naivety the morning of the Brexit vote so lets see if she has learned.

[Rudy T]

Thats the way it will be. The Nats will never drop their threat of indy. Sword of Damocles over Scotland.

If indyref2 ends in a No vote then no other government should grant them a 3rd. If the Nats truly cared for this nation they'd accept that and try to work together to use devolved powers and sort as much of this mess out as possible. Unfortunately they don't think like that.

[Boris]

If she's smart enough that will happen.    She has a "get out".       But she already demonstrated naivety the morning of the Brexit vote so lets see if she has learned.

What happens with brexit is the key. It always was.

 

I think even Ruth Davidson realises this.

[Rudy T]

Not entirely...

 

Wait and see what form brexit takes. If it is a hard brexit then indy2 will eventually happen.

 

A softer brexit with tariff free trading, then who knows. Sturgeon could argue that's why it was called, regards access to eu single market. Get that from brexit and she'll climb down and save (some) face at the same time.

The more I hear/read about soft Brexit the more it's apparent that it's just an excuse to shut our borders to Eastern Europeans. Maybe it's time for the EU to have a big boy conversation about it. The irony is a hard Brexit has every chance of smashing the economy to bits so no one from Europe would want to nor be able to work in the UK.

[JamboX2]

And you do realise that we would have control of the economic levers needed to improve our national balance sheet...

 

We could rehash the independence debate if you want, but I thought last Thursday showed nobody wanted that?

But you'd still need to find the funds from somewhere. To begin with these changes wouldn't be priorities given the need to establish the state apparatus behind all this.

 

My point is independence does little to address the issues as with devolution and independence the same question of priorities arises.

 

Even Corbyn's and was selective here and postponed said changes till later in a parliamentary term to allow for the books to be reviewed and to priorotise other policy areas.

[deesidejambo]

What happens with brexit is the key. It always was.

 

I think even Ruth Davidson realises this.

 

But no matter what-  the SNP will always claim, no matter what, that Brexit is a bad deal for Scotland.  That is what they need to feed Independence grievance.    They have a massive conflict of interest.

[Thunderstruck]

Gave away a second salary to charity for years. Name another politician that has made a similar gesture?

 

He also apparently placed a call and helped our club.

 

Salmond is a wonderful bloke and the best political operator in the UK. We're lucky to have had him.

 

He'd still defend the likes of you even if you do call him a tory *******.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/12144745/Alex-Salmonds-hypocrisy-of-using-firm-to-save-tax.html

 

If you don't believe the Telegraph, have a look at Companies House for SC497834

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Er...increased the minimum wage?

 

FTFY

[MacDonald Jardine]

I'm not talking about individualized issues, I am referring to the fundamental principles.

No you weren't.

You picked him up specifically on the face he didn't know welfare was devolved to the Northern Irish Assembly.

I didn't know that either and it differs from Scotland.

You seem to think devolved powers are uniform. They aren't.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Unknown user]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/12144745/Alex-Salmonds-hypocrisy-of-using-firm-to-save-tax.html

 

If you don't believe the Telegraph, have a look at Companies House for SC497834

"This would allow him to pay corporation tax at 20 per cent on the money, rather than income tax at up to 45 per cent. He would pay further tax only when he chooses to draw money from his company in future."

 

So he'll pay more tax on it when the money actually goes to him right? So he's not actually avoiding anything is he?

[JamboX2]

He also apparently placed a call and helped our club.

 

So? Ian Murray chaired FOH. Foulkes stopped us becoming Cala Himes FC. What are your thoughts on Murray and Foulkes?

 

This "a politician's a Jambo" stuff is bonkers. Salmond put calls into HMRC over Rangers demise. As did Swinney. These guys will do it for anyone big enough. But should politicians be overly involved in football like that?

 

Frankly I'm not so sure. Club aside. I'm not too sure it's a good thing.

[JamboX2]

No you weren't.

You picked him up specifically on the face he didn't know welfare was devolved to the Northern Irish Assembly.

I didn't know that either and it differs from Scotland.

You seem to think devolved powers are uniform. They aren't.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

NI have "parity". Effectively full power. However, they usually opt for uniform welfare across the UK at Stormont. Meaning the pass LCMs on welfare legislation.

 

Think it was only recently this changed with PIP and Universal Credit implementation which has been delayed.

 

But you are right. In many way Stormont has more power. Others - Finance - they have much less.

[Unknown user]

Salmond's First Minister pension also goes 100% to charity by the way, you're barking up the wrong tree here.

[Thunderstruck]

"This would allow him to pay corporation tax at 20 per cent on the money, rather than income tax at up to 45 per cent. He would pay further tax only when he chooses to draw money from his company in future."

 

So he'll pay more tax on it when the money actually goes to him right? So he's not actually avoiding anything is he?

So, what would be the point of going to the trouble and expense of creating the company with his wee pal Tasmina and John Cairns (who is an accountant that specialises in ?tax efficient investments?).

 

It is an avoidance scheme designed to reduce or defer tax (and NI) liability and is perfectly legit. It simply doesn't sit on all fours with his political pronouncements.

 

It was also designed to disassociate him from his extre-parliamentary income - at least until he was rumbled.

[Unknown user]

So, what would be the point of going to the trouble and expense of creating the company with his wee pal Tasmina and John Cairns (who is an accountant that specialises in ?tax efficient investments?).

 

It is an avoidance scheme designed to reduce or defer tax (and NI) liability and is perfectly legit. It simply doesn't sit on all fours with his political pronouncements.

 

It was also designed to disassociate him from his extre-parliamentary income - at least until he was rumbled.

It's a shit avoidance scheme that doesn't actually avoid tax!

 

From the same article;

 

Salmond said that the company existed ?to separate my parliamentary income from my income from publishing and journalism and for no purpose of tax avoidance or evasion?. He would not channel income through his wife, he said.

 

He said that all the expenses he set against tax through the company were ?entirely legitimate and necessary? and the company also paid VAT. He said he would only incur a tax advantage if he ceased to be a higher-rate taxpayer when income was taken from the company, which he said was unlikely. He said he would pay tax on any income he received from the company and had ?no intention of paying less tax ? that is not the purpose of the company and indeed will make sure that I do not?.

[Thunderstruck]

It's a shit avoidance scheme that doesn't actually avoid tax!

 

From the same article;

 

 

As I said, after he was rumbled.

[deesidejambo]

It's a shit avoidance scheme that doesn't actually avoid tax!

 

From the same article;

 

Not correct.  He has lost seat so his MP salary goes putting him on zero personal income.   He can now draw down his Company earnings and keep below the personal tax threshold each year if he wants.  He can also pay himself a dividend, again free of tax up to a certain amount.  He can also pay his wife a salary if he wants, all tax-free up to ?11,000 per year.

 

Its all legal, but not ethical.   He is not, and never will be, a "Company".  He is a sole-trader who is taking advantage of the fact you can at any time declare yourself to be a Limited Company for a very small fee.   Furthermore, if anyone chooses to sue him for anything related to what he says for example on TV, they have to sue the Company, such that his personal wealth is protected.

 

Its a common tax-avoidance loophole, and I wouldn't be surprised if he is not the only one doing it.

[Boris]

But no matter what-  the SNP will always claim, no matter what, that Brexit is a bad deal for Scotland.  That is what they need to feed Independence grievance.    They have a massive conflict of interest.

Disagree. If tariff free trade/single market entry an outcome, the SNP will argue that's what they advocated all along.

 

Indyref off the table as SNP "demands" met.

[deesidejambo]

Disagree. If tariff free trade/single market entry an outcome, the SNP will argue that's what they advocated all along.

 

Indyref off the table as SNP "demands" met.

 

I admire your blind faith!

[Trapper John McIntyre]

FTFY

 

I believe my post said 'living' wage.

 

Not like the Natz to lie and distort the truth.

[JamboX2]

Obviously. I do however believe that after 2014 if we had voted yes, they'd have been reversed by now.

I honestly can't see that. Independence day was slated for 2016. Can't see that happening that fast. Plus the white paper advocated sharing welfare systems for 10 years and mirror provisions. Hard to accept that.

[Boris]

I admire your blind faith!

 

It's not blind faith, I'm just thinking that it gives Sturgeon an "out", so to speak, and one she would happily take as she can save a little face in doing so.

[Thunderstruck]

Ouch!

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15343496.SNP_abandons___1m_fundraising_appeal_for_second_referendum/

[jambos are go!]

Nicola Sturgeon despite being the only senior politician given a bloody nose by Theresa May is wandering around Westminster trying to talk  to anybody about anything but IndyRef2. Maybe not a Dead Woman Walking but certainly walking wounded. IMO.

[pablo]

It's not blind faith, I'm just thinking that it gives Sturgeon an "out", so to speak, and one she would happily take as she can save a little face in doing so.

Boris, who do you think she needs to save face with? Her Government and the party faithful?

I think she's blown it with the wider electorate.

[Boris]

Boris, who do you think she needs to save face with? Her Government and the party faithful?

I think she's blown it with the wider electorate.

 

Yes, I think she may have as well, but...it could be spun that she was integral in getting a concensus Brexit.  Now, not sure how many people will buy that, but that's what may happen.

 

If you go back to her initial call for an indyref2, this was done with a backdrop of hard brexit looming.

 

Ruth Davidson is now saying the same as Sturgeon was then, i.e. we need a concensus approach to Brexit.  Even Gove is saying as much!

 

Point is, if this had been the approach from the off, as requested by Sturgeon, then there would be no indy ref 2 on the table.

 

It may well be a bargaining chip - concensus approach to brexit, drop indyref2.  Both sides can feel they have gained a concession.  If it is a hard brexit, as polls have shown around about the general election, support for independence would rise.  It's a get out of jail free card not only for Scottish Party leaders, but the whole UK.

 

Yes we will leave the EU, but perhaps on better economic terms than a hard brexit would have delivered.  This may raise the spectre of UKIP again, but I think that is a risk the Tories (and Labour) can manage.

[deesidejambo]

Boris, who do you think she needs to save face with? Her Government and the party faithful?

I think she's blown it with the wider electorate.

 

Indeed her credibility is severely damaged so the weegie gallus head-nodding that she previously adopted may not be effective anymore.

 

I think the wider electorate will now be far more cautious in blindly following the Indy path.

 

In the meantime you get the dafties like Spacey piling on with Indy2 on social media, further damaging their own credibility.

[deesidejambo]

Yes, I think she may have as well, but...it could be spun that she was integral in getting a concensus Brexit.  Now, not sure how many people will buy that, but that's what may happen.

 

If you go back to her initial call for an indyref2, this was done with a backdrop of hard brexit looming.

 

Ruth Davidson is now saying the same as Sturgeon was then, i.e. we need a concensus approach to Brexit.  Even Gove is saying as much!

 

Point is, if this had been the approach from the off, as requested by Sturgeon, then there would be no indy ref 2 on the table.

 

It may well be a bargaining chip - concensus approach to brexit, drop indyref2.  Both sides can feel they have gained a concession.  If it is a hard brexit, as polls have shown around about the general election, support for independence would rise.  It's a get out of jail free card not only for Scottish Party leaders, but the whole UK.

 

Yes we will leave the EU, but perhaps on better economic terms than a hard brexit would have delivered.  This may raise the spectre of UKIP again, but I think that is a risk the Tories (and Labour) can manage.

 

 

But then her ultimate goal is impacted.

 

She wants Indy, but if she can save face by showing she was part of (or even the architect of) a good Brexit deal, then good for her, but it defeats the longer-term SNP goal.

[Boris]

But then her ultimate goal is impacted.

 

She wants Indy, but if she can save face by showing she was part of (or even the architect of) a good Brexit deal, then good for her, but it defeats the longer-term SNP goal.

 

But without the Brexit vote there would never have been a call for an indy ref2!

 

This is just resetting the political dial.

 

Of course she will strive for independence, that's what the SNP are about, but her course now is to prove she can govern for the benefit of the country - getting on with the day job as we have heard countless times!

 

Sturgeon and the SNP are viewed as entrenched opn independence - ergo the single policy Tory campaign at the GE.

 

Equally the Tories in rUK seemed just as entrenched regards Brexit, especially a hard Brexit.

 

the results of the GE show that people want neither (indy or hard brexit), so some concensus is required to steer the country through these times.  

[doctor jambo]

"This would allow him to pay corporation tax at 20 per cent on the money, rather than income tax at up to 45 per cent. He would pay further tax only when he chooses to draw money from his company in future."

 

So he'll pay more tax on it when the money actually goes to him right? So he's not actually avoiding anything is he?

It is a tax avoidance vehicle

That is why locum doctors are now no longer allowed to be paid through personal service companies by the NHS - as they were before because it halves their tax liabilities.

The NHS were "IR35"'d and all locums are now paid at PAYE rates , with health boards banned from paying to such "companies".

There was a stand off in England where locums withdrew their services unless they were given 40% pay rises to ensure their take home pay remained the same after this change came in/

So aye- he will pay 20 % corp tax instead of 47% tax and NI, then will only pay  income tax on whatever he has not drawn as dividends when he folds the company

footballers do the same with their commercial deals and image rights

file it through a company and take it at dividends- half your tax bill

[Rudy T]

Ouch!

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15343496.SNP_abandons___1m_fundraising_appeal_for_second_referendum/

The rabid Nat cult that lobbed their hard earned into this won't care. All for the cause! Proves one thing, they were supremely confident about the GE. She's beating a hasty retreat and if Brexit goes soft that indyref2 dream is fading fast.

[maroonlegions]

same way that the Tories could raise minimum wage to ?50 ph and shower the poor in free cash taken from Amazon and google and the top 1 %

- and people would still be mumping on about how they lost their "free school milk"

 But you know very well that your points above will never happen.

 

Would not have minded  loosing free school milk if all your above free stuff was true but they have still made a lot of the poor even poorer.

[Unknown user]

It is a tax avoidance vehicle

That is why locum doctors are now no longer allowed to be paid through personal service companies by the NHS - as they were before because it halves their tax liabilities.

The NHS were "IR35"'d and all locums are now paid at PAYE rates , with health boards banned from paying to such "companies".

There was a stand off in England where locums withdrew their services unless they were given 40% pay rises to ensure their take home pay remained the same after this change came in/

So aye- he will pay 20 % corp tax instead of 47% tax and NI, then will only pay income tax on whatever he has not drawn as dividends when he folds the company

footballers do the same with their commercial deals and image rights

file it through a company and take it at dividends- half your tax bill

Well according to you, but then according to you Trump's been good for blue collar americans.

[Rudy T]

But without the Brexit vote there would never have been a call for an indy ref2!

 

This is just resetting the political dial.

 

Of course she will strive for independence, that's what the SNP are about, but her course now is to prove she can govern for the benefit of the country - getting on with the day job as we have heard countless times!

 

Sturgeon and the SNP are viewed as entrenched opn independence - ergo the single policy Tory campaign at the GE.

 

Equally the Tories in rUK seemed just as entrenched regards Brexit, especially a hard Brexit.

 

the results of the GE show that people want neither (indy or hard brexit), so some concensus is required to steer the country through these times.

Without Brexit Cameron would still be in charge with a clear majority the snp would have 50+ seats. Jeremy Corbyn would still be viewed as some happy clapper leftie with no idea what he was doing and Teresa May the home secretary.

 

Before holyrood elections we'd have had a GE which would've returned Cameron has PM with a slightly larger majority and the SNP with maybe a 2 seat loss at most....that would've triggered the SNP to go for indyref2...no way would they have left this alone any change in circumstance would've triggered it. I'm sure they thought Brexit was manna from heaven when the result came in, my word has that back fired.

[maroonlegions]

So May will plough ahead with her intention of forming a majority government with the DUP, despite the risk factors to the Friday Agreement and the over all deeper implications that could very well threaten or put into jeopardy the continued peace in NI..

 

May could face some real opposition to this coalition , some one nation Tories might vote for the progressive alliance because of Brexit and just tolerate any dodgy alliance with the DUP . On the other hand that would still be very strange , but these are strange times , and some moderate Tories could very well decide not to risk a collapse of the Good Friday agreement and a disastrous Brexit just to keep their slender minority government crawling along. 

 

All in all May needs to go.

 

 

.

[maroonlegions]

And so it begins, the fall of May,.

 

 

 

Sinn Fein 'flying MPs to London for Westminster induction amid fears they will topple May'

SINN FEIN will reportedly send their seven MPs to Westminster in a direct threat to the proposed Tory alliance with the DUP.

EXPRESS.CO.UK

 

 

[maroonlegions]

Could be an interesting day concerning the DUP .

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The DUP will be seeking money today. I reckon Hammond will be delivering an emergency budget and the 2025 target of zeroing the deficit is toast.

[Adam Murray]

Hard to see Sin Feinn MP's pledging allegiance to The Queen, a prerequisite of taking your seat at Westminster.

 

Also, if they did, then Labour formed and alliance with possibly Sinn Feinn and the SNP, are we not just in the same situation?

 

While many are complaining of a party from NI having sway in running Scotland, England and Wales, how then would the English and Welsh feel being run from parties from Scotland and NI?

 

It all seems a bit of a mess.........democracy eh?

[Rudy T]

 

And so it begins, the fall of May,.

 

 

Sinn Fein 'flying MPs to London for Westminster induction amid fears they will topple May'

SINN FEIN will reportedly send their seven MPs to Westminster in a direct threat to the proposed Tory alliance with the DUP.

EXPRESS.CO.UK

 

I doubt they will. However they can constantly use it as a threat. For every DUP demand that Sinn Fein don't like this will come up.

 

It's utterly ridiculous the country is being run like this. Sturgeon and May have a lot to answer for, the country is completely unstable.

 

The problem is while Brexit is upon us they'll not have another GE. And even after that the Tories cant risk a defeat, so what I fully expect is a well coordinated attack on Corbyn for the next 4 months gauge opinion and possibly risk it, but not with BoJo at the helm I reckon he'd be less popular than May.

 

What I think they'll do is politely ask a safe seat backbencher to step aside Cameron will run and he'll miraculously be shoehorned back in as leader and let him go head to head with Corbyn.

 

The most sensible approach is to rerun Brexit hope for a remain vote and stabilise the country with another GE set for mid 2018. Sturgeon also steps up and says indyref2 is off the table and suddenly we get back to normal politics and voting.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

 

And so it begins, the fall of May,.

 

 

 

Sinn Fein 'flying MPs to London for Westminster induction amid fears they will topple May'

SINN FEIN will reportedly send their seven MPs to Westminster in a direct threat to the proposed Tory alliance with the DUP.

EXPRESS.CO.UK

 

 

 

 

Not quite the whole story.

 

Sinn Fein are coming under serious pressure from the South's Fianna Fail party who are threatening to stand against Sinn Fein in the North.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-and-sinn-f%C3%A9in-trade-insults-over-westminster-abstention-1.3113941

 

And.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1120381/fianna-fail-planning-to-take-on-sinn-fein-in-northern-ireland-election-with-several-politicians-interested-in-joining-them/

 

So Sinn Fein may indeed be forced to take up their seats in Westminster, not so really to oust May, but more probably to save their own seats from Fianna Fail.

 

It's an utter mess and is only going to get worse.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

The Shinners won't take their seats. Adams, who has never been in the IRA , would look like a total sellout.

[Rudy T]

They can use my money for whatever purpose they want.

 

All we have to do now is wait ... IndyRef 2 is coming ... If people can't see the warning signs emanating from a failing UK, then you're blind or ignorant.

 

Sturgeon is taking a period of reflection unlike Mooth who has already thrown her cards in and went full circle on her original position. Absolute chancer.

It's failing because of indyref2 you'd be blind or ignorant if you cant see that. And it's not coming any time soon, if it does and it's a No vote then what...We've gone through possibly 2 years of complete chaos for nothing. Sounds like a very responsible approach and an indictment of Nat thinking.

[Cade]

NI, Scotland and Wales dominated by England forever = nae bother

 

Scottish MPs being a part of the UK government was used as a scare story against Milliband in 2015.

 

DUP getting a say in UK government in 2017 is causing all manner of bother.

 

Are people finally coming around to the idea of a federalised UK?

 

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