General Election

[jambos are go!]

What about the previous referendum that independence was won?

What one was that? The only ones I can really were about  devolution not independence. Could you then answer my question directly.

[Pans Jambo]

 

And on the 4 highlighted the SNP stats are appalling. In fact their failings are worse than the Tories failings on the same 4 issues in England.

 

Of course fishy just likes to shout abuse at people and refuses to acknowledge these facts. All of which are checkable online They're not a secret.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whats the crack with the housing?

Has the SNP not just built more council & affordable houses than all the last governments at Holyrood put together? I just read that they gave East Lothian Council ?30m to spend on affordable housing over the next 3 years with tens of millions more to other councils in Scotland for the same programme.

 

Would like to know what the issue is and I hope you dont say its because theres no council houses. Thats Maggies fault. She selt them aw aff oan the cheap likesey!

[Thunderstruck]

Except this was a GE, not a vote about Scottish independence.

The referendum last year was about the UK remaining in or leaving the EU. Did that stop the SNP hijacking the result to provide a pretext for another Independence Referendum? No it did not but Sturgeon has been proved wrong and she probably now regrets diving in as she did.

[Pans Jambo]

You really do need to brush up on your facts before posting.

 

2014 Independence Referendum - SNP (Yes) vote share was 44.7%

2017 Scottish Council Elections - SNP vote share (1st preference) was 32.3%

2017 Scottish General Election - SNP vote share was 36.9%

 

The majority of voters in Scotland are not backing the SNP (or their obsession with Independence).

 

Granted, a large proportion of the population back them - and said large proportion of the population would like independence.

However, it is nowhere near the majority of people - and it is a mile away from having clear backing to hold another referendum.

The flaw in your argument is you assume its only SNP voters who want Indy.

 

News flash... It's not.

[deesidejambo]

The flaw in your argument is you assume its only SNP voters who want Indy.

 

News flash... It's not.

And likewise not all SNP voters want Indy either.  Works both ways.

[Pans Jambo]

The referendum last year was about the UK remaining in or leaving the EU. Did that stop the SNP hijacking the result to provide a pretext for another Independence Referendum? No it did not but Sturgeon has been proved wrong and she probably now regrets diving in as she did.

Nonsense. The SNP merely pointed out that despite what Scotland votes for en-masse it really doesnt matter as middle england decides our fate.

Glad its now the orange order looking after our interests now.

 

Way to go unionist voters!

[Pans Jambo]

And likewise not all SNP voters want Indy either. Works both ways.

No argument from me on that other than there are Labour for Indy movements etc also.

Point is, looking at SNP voter numbers doesnt mean indy is dead or for that matter...not dead.

[GBJambo]

No argument from me on that other than there are Labour for Indy movements etc also.

Point is, looking at SNP voter numbers doesnt mean indy is dead or for that matter...not dead.

You have to go by polls to guage opinion and the most recent one done on the eve of the g.e showed 38% in favour of independence.

[Thunderstruck]

Nonsense. The SNP merely pointed out that despite what Scotland votes for en-masse it really doesnt matter as middle england decides our fate.

Glad its now the orange order looking after our interests now.

 

Way to go unionist voters!

Remind us what Scotland voted for in June 2016 and then expand that answer to tell us how that means Scottish voters want to be an independent state in the EU.

[Pans Jambo]

You have to go by polls to guage opinion and the most recent one done on the eve of the g.e showed 38% in favour of independence.

Polls are a seperate matter than looking at actual SNP voting figures in the context we were discussing.

[Pans Jambo]

Remind us what Scotland voted for in June 2016 and then expand that answer to tell us how that means Scottish voters want to be an independent state in the EU.

Lost me there TS.

Your point was the SNP highjacking the EU vote last year. My point was they didnt 'highjack' it. They merely told the obvious truth. Fact.

[Space Mackerel]

Whats the crack with the housing?

Has the SNP not just built more council & affordable houses than all the last governments at Holyrood put together? I just read that they gave East Lothian Council ?30m to spend on affordable housing over the next 3 years with tens of millions more to other councils in Scotland for the same programme.

 

Would like to know what the issue is and I hope you dont say its because theres no council houses. Thats Maggies fault. She selt them aw aff oan the cheap likesey!

Just announced.

 

https://news.gov.scot/news/gbp-1-75-billion-boost-for-investment-in-affordable-housing

[Pans Jambo]

Just announced.

 

https://news.gov.scot/news/gbp-1-75-billion-boost-for-investment-in-affordable-housing

That plainly does not fit with the SNP = Bad narrative.

[151]

Reading over the last few days of this thread

 

Not seen hurt like it since 19/05/12

[deesidejambo]

Reading over the last few days of this thread

 

Not seen hurt like it since 19/05/12

 

Indeed I seem to remember a certain poster glibly predicting "tears and snotters".     Well he was correct, but got the sides wrong.

[brunstanejambo]

Yes, whether you like it or not that's how our democracy works.

 

You been sleeping since 2015?  The tories have introduced measures that no one outside their party backed.

 

Which is exactly the point I was making that you spectacularly failed to see....

 

Just because a party has a majority of seats in government/parliament it does not mean that they have the backing of the country/populace to do the things in their manifesto. Your original posts that I replied to stated that the SNP had the backing of Scotland / the populace to have another independence referendum. It does not.

 

Your original post that I replied to should have really said that the SNP controls a minority devolved parliament which has the right to try and push through policies which are laid out in it's manifesto. That would have been correct(ish). And as your post above states, that's how democracy works.

[jambos are go!]

Nonsense. The SNP merely pointed out that despite what Scotland votes for en-masse it really doesnt matter as middle england decides our fate.

Glad its now the orange order looking after our interests now.

Way to go unionist voters!

Try telling Theresa May that middle England decides our fate. Scotland and Northern Ireland deciding her fate more like within this United Kingdom.

[Pans Jambo]

Just announced.

 

https://news.gov.scot/news/gbp-1-75-billion-boost-for-investment-in-affordable-housing

On target for 50,000 affordable homes by 2021. Completed 7,336 homes last year. Up 13% from the previous year.

Should always try and do more but hardly the disaster mentioned earlier.

 

More yoon pish mate.

[Thunderstruck]

Lost me there TS.

Your point was the SNP highjacking the EU vote last year. My point was they didnt 'highjack' it. They merely told the obvious truth. Fact.

Really! Sturgeon and the SNP totally misread the mood of the Scottish vote in Brexit referendum with her quote that "Scotland is being taken out of EU against its will".

 

The poll asked no question other than should the U.K. leave the EU so any other inference is simple guesswork. A fact now driven home after Sturgeon made Brexit a key part of her campaign.

 

But, dream on - the denial phase will pass soon enough.

[Pans Jambo]

Really! Sturgeon and the SNP totally misread the mood of the Scottish vote in Brexit referendum with her quote that "Scotland is being taken out of EU against its will".

 

The poll asked no question other than should the U.K. leave the EU so any other inference is simple guesswork. A fact now driven home after Sturgeon made Brexit a key part of her campaign.

 

But, dream on - the denial phase will pass soon enough.

Now im really confused.

 

Are you saying that Scotland didnt know it was voting to leave the EU but voted to stay anyway? Or it in fact did know but wished to remain as part of the EU with a massive majority?

 

In any case the facts remain that Scotland voted to stay part of the EU. England voted to leave so we (Scotlands voters) are being removed via Brexit despite voting to stay.

 

Is this not the case? Am I really the one in denial??!

[gowestjambo]

Sturgeon was spot on with the timing, an early election took out a few seats but the decision will be vindicated in due course.

 

As far as I can see Wee Burney has not been spot on about anything. She is a deluded fool who has been put in her place.

 

for all you SNP 'rs Shut up, run the country properly and demonstrate that you are capable. Then you will have a vast majority clambering to vote for Independence. Until you can prove that please forget about an Indy Ref2.

[Thunderstruck]

Now im really confused.

 

Are you saying that Scotland didnt know it was voting to leave the EU but voted to stay anyway? Or it in fact did know but wished to remain as part of the EU with a massive majority?

 

In any case the facts remain that Scotland voted to stay part of the EU. England voted to leave so we (Scotlands voters) are being removed via Brexit despite voting to stay.

 

Is this not the case? Am I really the one in denial??!

If you believe that your are correct, the corollary is that Glasgow, Dundee, W Dunbartonshire and N Lanarkshire should seek a vote to leave the U.K. as they are being kept in the UK against the majority decision in those areas.

 

They would, of course, be wrong as the question was should SCOTLAND be an independent country, not individual council areas. The question in 2016 was should the UNITED KINGDOM remain in or leave the EU, not individual parts of the UK.

 

Extrapolating those votes is wrong and makes rash assumptions as to the motive for voting "Remain" or "Leave".

 

Do you, for example:

Know how many voted "Remain" simply to avoid another IndyRef?

Know the number of Scots who would vote remain if the rest of the UK voted leave?

 

In now seems that Sturgeon was rash and miscalculated. As the saying goes "act in haste and repent at leisure".

[JamboX2]

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1391159-tommy-sheppard-pulls-out-of-snp-westminster-contest/

 

Interesting that there's a fair bit of post-election fall out for the SNP but this is being swept aside... Shepherd (the most left wing of the candidates for Westminster leader) has withdrawn through lack of support. Not what I expected from the lefty SNP...

[Space Mackerel]

If you believe that your are correct, the corollary is that Glasgow, Dundee, W Dunbartonshire and N Lanarkshire should seek a vote to leave the U.K. as they are being kept in the UK against the majority decision in those areas.

 

They would, of course, be wrong as the question was should SCOTLAND be an independent country, not individual council areas. The question in 2016 was should the UNITED KINGDOM remain in or leave the EU, not individual parts of the UK.

 

Extrapolating those votes is wrong and makes rash assumptions as to the motive for voting "Remain" or "Leave".

 

Do you, for example:

Know how many voted "Remain" simply to avoid another IndyRef?

Know the number of Scots who would vote remain if the rest of the UK voted leave?

 

In now seems that Sturgeon was rash and miscalculated. As the saying goes "act in haste and repent at leisure".

So you have no problem with Ruth flip flopping now over Brexit indicating it needs looked at properly and saying pretty much what NS has been saying all along?

[JamboX2]

She's had consistent principles for a lifetime, Ruth and Kezia haven't had a consistent thought that has lasted beyond a week.

 

Scotland is running extremely well, you keep believing the tripe that you're fed daily from the MSM.

Surely it's in part running well through being in the Union as well though. You can't say it's all shiny purely because of one of two governments.

[pablo]

She's had consistent principles for a lifetime, Ruth and Kezia haven't had a consistent thought that has lasted beyond a week.

 

Scotland is running extremely well, you keep believing the tripe that you're fed daily from the MSM.

You forgot the troll face.

[pablo]

Disprove it.

You're the one that's claiming Scotland is running extremely well. Based on your first hand experiences gained from living in Belgium for the last seven years.

[Rudy T]

True, but at the same time the SNP seem to get the blame for everything that is apparently failing. The amount of times I've heard that they are responsible for the economy stalling for example ...

The perception and not without some substance is they've failed to use devolved power to benefit Scotland and spent far too long obsessing about independence instead of running the country.

[JamboX2]

What devolved powers?

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5

 

That link will take you to the Scotland Act 1998 (as amended by subsequent Scotland Acts 2012 and 2016). The part I have linked you to is Schedule 5: Reserved Powers. These are powers reserved to the Westminster Parliament and the UK Government. Everything else is held to be a devolved power. 

 

The Scotland Act is an enabling Act. Meaning it doesn't limit power (i.e. the Government of Wales Act 1998) but merely says "we will retain this, you the rest". 

 

So when you say "what devolved powers", well simply everything which is not reserved. So the Holyrood Parliament and the Scottish Government do have quite a bit of power. 

 

In reference to your earlier post, there are issues in education (attainment is down, literacy down, we perform worse in getting poorer kids into universities than England with ?9k fees, in part because we cut support grant funding!), health (waiting times up, staff pay is locked down, health inequalities are static), transport (ScotRail, been on that?, Interference and centralising local government decisions here - i.e. Edinburgh blocked from extending the trams with ITS city deal money) and governing (the SNP in office have spent more time in Parliament on an indyref2 which helped them lose 13 seats to the Tories than they have on anything else - they delayed their long awaited education bill over the motion for holding a referendum).

 

So it's not terrible. It's not South Sudan. But it's not great, and frankly there is a bit of disquiet over the SNP at present. Which in part is only natural after 10 years in office.

[Rudy T]

What devolved powers?

Whit???

[Rudy T]

You stated that the SNP are failing to use their devolved powers to "benefit" Scotland, what devolved powers?

Health and Education are the first two on the list. It's been done to death. You asked why they got blamed for everything...or words to that effect. I gave you an answer. That's the perception and Health and Education back it up.

[JamboX2]

Interesting but where are the devolved powers that will help "benefit" Scotland as he put it.  What can we do The Video Recording Act 1984, The Hire-Purchase Act 1964 etc?.

 

What's your comparison for the perceived failures in the mentioned areas just out of curiosity?

 

Will all devolved power is for the benefit of Scotland so your point is pretty odd to say the least. Video Recording Act is for the classification of movies and the Hire-Purchase Act regulates hire purchase... I suppose you could reclassify Full Metal Jacket to 18 and re-regulate the protections offered people under Hire Purchase? Then again I suppose things like this are reserved to ensure uniformity across borders - you know, like how the EU regulates things across borders and is increasingly doing so in more and more areas?

 

Or like Flanders and Wallonia will share regulations imposed by the Belgian Parliament.

 

Comparisons in education can be made to past performance in Scotland, the poorer children into university is against English and Welsh figures produced in a Sutton Trust survey a year or two ago. Again health, generally against past performances in Scotland. What's your point?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Anyway, it appears Snarlene is playing hardball. The DUPpers loyalty to the half crown is coming to the fore.

[JamboX2]

Health, really?  I can't recall British Red Cross rolling into Edinburgh and declaring a humanitarian crisis in the NHS.

 

And, education.  What's the comparison, PISA?  Those figures consider European countries with different education systems.  Do you know what the pedagogical model is, or Reggio Emilia?  That's a couple of examples of approaches used for comparative purposes, it's ridiculous.

 

So... from Belgium with Love, it's all fine, shut up and back the SNP? 

 

Frankly, from living here, it could be better. It could be much much better. My mum was recently in the Western General. It was a throwback to a  bygone era of a place in the wards she was in. A couple of my mates are teachers in poorer areas, they speak of shrinking budgets, less classroom assistants and not being provided the resources needed to fully implement the curriculum. That's not true across the board. Of course it's not. But it is for a growing number of people.

 

But mate, please. Don't tell us this is the best it can be. It can be better and the SNP frankly spent 2011-14 campaigning for an independence vote and then spent the next two years establishing Sturgeon and fighting 2 consecutive elections. They were very good from 2007-11. But they've massively lost it of late.

[Space Mackerel]

Ruth Davidson

 

Flippity flop flop.

 

https://twitter.com/mrfurby/status/874567074093432832

[reaths17]

Course it could be better, and for some - it'll never be good enough.  

 

I agree with the SNP point, they've took their eye off the ball.  But the way some people talk on here you'd think that the country has deteriorated to the point of near-collapse.  When I look at the SNP, I see the only party capable of promoting a positive vision for Scotland.

aye and somebody promoted oshinawa as a fitba player. bullshit about how good summit is doesn't make it so.

[Pans Jambo]

If you believe that your are correct, the corollary is that Glasgow, Dundee, W Dunbartonshire and N Lanarkshire should seek a vote to leave the U.K. as they are being kept in the UK against the majority decision in those areas.

 

They would, of course, be wrong as the question was should SCOTLAND be an independent country, not individual council areas. The question in 2016 was should the UNITED KINGDOM remain in or leave the EU, not individual parts of the UK.

 

Extrapolating those votes is wrong and makes rash assumptions as to the motive for voting "Remain" or "Leave".

 

Do you, for example:

Know how many voted "Remain" simply to avoid another IndyRef?

Know the number of Scots who would vote remain if the rest of the UK voted leave?

 

In now seems that Sturgeon was rash and miscalculated. As the saying goes "act in haste and repent at leisure".

Your like ma Mrs. Start a debate and then slaver pish and go off on a tangent.

WTF are you on?

Scotland voted remain

England voted leave

So Scotland leaves too. Thats the facts. I cant be any clearer.

Scotland has been removed from the EU against the wishes of the majority who bothered their arse to go to the voting booths.

[Thunderstruck]

The initial conversation was related to the SNPs apparent lack of vision when it came to utilizing devolved powers to "benefit" Scotland. None of those listed satisfy his point.

 

Income tax is the only leverage we currently have and it's only been provided as a fiscal trap that will damage the governing party in Scotland, be that SNP, Labour or whoever. Interesting that you mention Wallonia, where I am, they have more powers than Scotland. A wee area in Europe, unrecognized by most, has more powers than a sovereign nation that has contributed massively to the progression of modern society. People should be embarrassed at being reduced to this sorry state.

 

The comparison points are always interesting, I never remember what we're allowed to compare and what we're not. It's completely selective and usually used to cudgel the SNP when they slip behind x/y/z.

Income tax is not the only fiscal lever available to the Scottish Government. Some examples -

 

Non-Domestic Rates with a tax base today of ?7,351,860,785. (A significant chunk of which is given away to the business community - how very Tory of them).

 

Council Tax

(Both of the above are "local taxes" but are grabbed by the centre.

 

LBTT

 

Air Passenger Duty.

[JamboX2]

If only the MSM were brave enough to call her out on it ...

You mean lap up everything the SNP digital spin doctor says?

 

Come on. We can all hope for better journalism. But that's just lapping up SNP spin.

[gowestjambo]

She's had consistent principles for a lifetime, Ruth and Kezia haven't had a consistent thought that has lasted beyond a week.

 

Scotland is running extremely well, you keep believing the tripe that you're fed daily from the MSM.

 

Really, I must have imagined the NHS in disarray, Our once much vaunted Education system crumbling, and Pot holed roads. Not to mention Scotlands rising debt since the SNP came to power. Please list the examples of Scotland running well - that should be good for a laugh.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

I believe my post said 'living' wage.

 

Not like the Natz to lie and distort the truth.

The real living wage is somewhat different from the Tory version, no lies or distortion here tripper boy!

[JamboX2]

Course it could be better, and for some - it'll never be good enough.

 

I agree with the SNP point, they've took their eye off the ball. But the way some people talk on here you'd think that the country has deteriorated to the point of near-collapse. When I look at the SNP, I see the only party capable of promoting a positive vision for Scotland.

And the most recent election (and the one before in Holyrood) suggests this is no longer a widely held view. Less MPs and a minority administration reliant on Green support (partly because the Greens have no spine at present).

 

I think all parties offer a vision of what they want for Scotland. I think the SNP monopoly here is slipping in the public perception. Which is good. And normal.

[Thunderstruck]

None suitable to turn around a failing economy though.

It would be a start but they are too frightened to use in case they scare off business and investment.

 

The sad thing is that IndyRef2 is doing more than enough to scare off investment and is much more of a concern than Brexit according to recent Business Confidence surveys.

[JamboX2]

Show me once where Ruth Davidson has been called out for holding 8 different positions on Brexit and I'll retract.

 

Can you imagine if Sturgeon had changed her mind that many times on a subject? She has apparently changed her view on a second referendum, which is not true, and it's made every paper and the BBC.

It's off the table - indyref2 - till post-2021 imo. Sensible to do so for too many reasons.

 

You also realise Sturgeon has gone from anti-EU to pro-EU, pro-Euro to anti-Euro and anti-Single market to pro with many in her party since the 80s? They've flip flopped on this a lot too. Nobody is prefect.

 

As for Ruthie D. She's doing what most of us are - getting on with life and accepting Brexit may well happen. At least it's looking a he'll of a lot softer than before.

[Roxy Hearts]

There are some childish comments on here. Cult, Natz, Krankie, Burney.Get a grip.

 

Soon as you see that the post is diminished.

 

Self esteem isn't that prominent in some posters. Not an accusation levelled at those wishing independence.

[JyTees]

There are some childish comments on here. Cult, Natz, Krankie, Burney.Get a grip.

 

Soon as you see that the post is diminished.

 

Self esteem isn't that prominent in some posters. Not an accusation levelled at those wishing independence.

Yeh, cos it's only "yoons" that chuck those about, right?

 

Do hypocrisy much?

[Roxy Hearts]

Yeh, cos it's only "yoons" that chuck those about, right?

 

Do hypocrisy much?

Hypocrisy? What are you on about. I didn't use any silly names. I was talking about the lack of self esteem some folk have as they don't think we can govern ourselves.

[deesidejambo]

There are some childish comments on here. Cult, Natz, Krankie, Burney.Get a grip.

 

Soon as you see that the post is diminished.

 

Self esteem isn't that prominent in some posters. Not an accusation levelled at those wishing independence.

 

Yoons

yoonatics

Tank Girl

Rooth the untruth

Mother Theresa May-hem

[Roxy Hearts]

Yoons

yoonatics

Tank Girl

Rooth the untruth

Mother Theresa May-hem

Childish too. It's calling people part of a cult that's embarrassing more than anything.

 

Independence is normal. Would you like UK to give up its independence and be governed by Luxembourg or Germany? Maybe the USA as speak same language.

 

UK independence normal.

Scottish independence? Only for cultists according to some.

[deesidejambo]

Childish too. It's calling people part of a cult that's embarrassing more than anything.

 

Independence is normal. Would you like UK to give up its independence and be governed by Luxembourg or Germany? Maybe the USA as speak same language.

 

UK independence normal.

Scottish independence? Only for cultists according to some.

 

its in the eye of the beholder.

 

Would Nicola sturgeon support Shetland Independence from Scotland?  Then Orkney?    What if it was the "will of the Orkney people" to stay in the UK in IndyRef2?

 

Where the line is drawn is a matter of individual opinion and political expediency.