Indy Ref Part Deux

[DanishTam10]

I think the PM has made a mistake not facing up to the independence question.

Even as a Yes voter I think the No side would win at the moment. Not enough has changed since the last time.

I also think Nicola Sturgeon has bluffed the PM because the UK is in for a rough time in the coming months and years.

The UK could be in turmoil by the time the PM finally has to face up to a Scottish referendum and she will have to face up to it eventually. There is also the possibility of having a newly elected Tory government in office which would not be popular in Scotland and could boost the Yes vote.

Nicola Sturgeon was bluffing by calling for a referendum so quickly the PM has fell feet first into the trap.

 

So Nicola Sturgeon was bluffing?

No, NS was conscious of the timescales and pitched this referendum, this week, as she was always going to anyway. Doing it this week, is good timing for her, it is just before their conference, just before the Council elections. It wasn't a bluff. Just timed perfectly for her party. 

 

I think it has backfired on her though. She hasn't come through this smelling of roses.

[MacDonald Jardine]

You're damn right they are trying to protect future revenue for the UK treasury but according to several posters on here oil is finished.

 

To answer your question, makes this country a bit more richer and socially inclusive and stop Westminster asset stripping it as it has done for the last god knows how many years.

How? Scotland has had the ability for nigh on 20 years to make the country more socially inclusive by increasing income tax.

Not a single government, whether made up of Labour, Lib-Dem, SNP or Green Party, have chosen to do so.

 

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[Space Mackerel]

He's gone on to blame Ruth Davidson by the looks of it.

 

You've got to wonder though, if that really was the case then why did the Scottish government try and sweep it under the carpet.

 

Very strange eh!!!

It was all signed and sealed then Roof, Rennie and co started bringing up the Chinese consortiums history. They had enough and pulled out. It was more hassle than it was worth to them.

 

So well done, ?10bn of investment down the swanny.

 

The Scottish Shambles they called it in China.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Sturgeon looked pretty shellshocked on BBC being interviewed just now by Jackie B.

 

Trying to take on the Tory Party for deviousness...Found out. Its not a game, alright.

 

Hopefully this is a tipping point where enough people will come to their senses and the hegemony of the SNP dissipates.

 

Labour, SNP or whoever, never a good thing in a small country where one party dominates unchecked for so long. 

[Space Mackerel]

How? Scotland has had the ability for nigh on 20 years to make the country more socially inclusive by increasing income tax.

Not a single government, whether made up of Labour, Lib-Dem, SNP or Green Party, have chosen to do so.

 

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Labour proposed putting 1p on income tax a few years ago but the amount it raised made it pointless.

There are other ways governments can raise money you know. Fuel duty, fags, alcohol etc, they even used glass windows way back in history.

[aussieh]

Sturgeon looked pretty shellshocked on BBC being interviewed just now by Jackie B.

 

Trying to take on the Tory Party for deviousness...Found out. Its not a game, alright.

 

Hopefully this is a tipping point where enough people will come to their senses and the hegemony of the SNP dissipates.

 

Labour, SNP or whoever, never a good thing in a small country where one party dominates unchecked for so long.

What like? The tories in England from now on. Why is ok to Brexit at any cost but not for Scotland to leave the UK at any cost?

[Trapper John McIntyre]

What like? The tories in England from now on. Why is ok to Brexit at any cost but not for Scotland to leave the UK at any cost?

 

What is the cost of Brexit? It hasn't happened yet.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Sorry to jump in but Scotland just has increased income tax, effective in 3 weeks time.

Has it? I completely missed that.

How much is it going up by?

 

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[Trapper John McIntyre]

Sturgeon openly photographed with Chinese representatives signing a memo of understanding.

 

Opposition - *SECRET DEALS, SNP BAD, CHINA BAD*

 

Deal falls through - *SNP BAD, CHINA GOOD*

 

Actual reality - The opposition parties do nothing for Scotland but talk it down and hold us back. The Chinese stated that they discontinued the memorandum of understanding due to the political fallout in Scotland, i.e. The openly hostility displayed by the opposition at the prospect of a deal.

 

Unionists hide from the truth.

 

Ramblings and slaverings that epitomise Nationalist seethe and irrationality.

 

Something in common that the Chinese and SNP have: dislike of opposition. They should have done well together.

[deesidejambo]

What like? The tories in England from now on. Why is ok to Brexit at any cost but not for Scotland to leave the UK at any cost?

Each came as the result of referenda.

 

Agreed things have changed so it's right to have another look at Indy, but the timing was too soon.

 

Nicola will be smart enough to wait till she gets 60% support next time round.

 

Tick tock as you say

[jambogemz]

Sturgeon openly photographed with Chinese representatives signing a memo of understanding.

 

Opposition - *SECRET DEALS, SNP BAD, CHINA BAD*

 

Deal falls through - *SNP BAD, CHINA GOOD*

 

Actual reality - The opposition parties do nothing for Scotland but talk it down and hold us back. The Chinese stated that they discontinued the memorandum of understanding due to the political fallout in Scotland, i.e. The openly hostility displayed by the opposition at the prospect of a deal.

 

Unionists hide from the truth.

If that's the case why did the Scottish government try to hide it? Surely they'd have come out all guns blazing??

 

They didn't and probably would have kept it quiet for as long as possible if it hadn't been printed in the Chinese press.

 

Why was that?

[maroonlegions]

This political tennis is now  turning into a debate about Brexit and not about independence, yes Brexit is important for Scotland i will add also but 

 

May is a snake by nature and her spin doctors have targeted  banging  on about Scotland needing  to know whats at stake after Brexit , did Scotland not vote to remain in Europe?? Do the Scottish electoral actually give a **** about Brexit  in the  long run?? if they new they had to chance to vote for independence??..  i mean they rejected it after all.

 

Would Scotland as an independent nation have a real chance of reapplying/remaining in Europe if it gained independence as its people voted for.??

 

Clever manipulation from May and her cronies.

[MacDonald Jardine]

What like? The tories in England from now on. Why is ok to Brexit at any cost but not for Scotland to leave the UK at any cost?

Neither is okay unless you're an extremist nutcase.

 

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[deesidejambo]

Has it? I completely missed that.

How much is it going up by?

 

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By a minuscule amount. They could have made a real impact but bottled it.

[Space Mackerel]

Sturgeon openly photographed with Chinese representatives signing a memo of understanding.

 

Opposition - *SECRET DEALS, SNP BAD, CHINA BAD*

 

Deal falls through - *SNP BAD, CHINA GOOD*

 

Actual reality - The opposition parties do nothing for Scotland but talk it down and hold us back. The Chinese stated that they discontinued the memorandum of understanding due to the political fallout in Scotland, i.e. The openly hostility displayed by the opposition at the prospect of a deal.

 

Unionists hide from the truth.

The actual reality is lost on some on here. It just goes to show how utterly ill informed the Scottish electorate are.

 

Reporting Scotland has just finished, cant wait for the barrage of nonsense now.

[DanishTam10]

Sturgeon openly photographed with Chinese representatives signing a memo of understanding.

 

Opposition - *SECRET DEALS, SNP BAD, CHINA BAD*

 

Deal falls through - *SNP BAD, CHINA GOOD*

 

Actual reality - The opposition parties do nothing for Scotland but talk it down and hold us back. The Chinese stated that they discontinued the memorandum of understanding due to the political fallout in Scotland, i.e. The openly hostility displayed by the opposition at the prospect of a deal.

 

Unionists hide from the truth.

 

There is more to it than that though.

 

I bet you don't understand why the SNP never announced the deal when it happened, even though the businesses did. Does anyone understand why the SNP kept quiet about signing a multi-billion business and investment deal?

[Space Mackerel]

If that's the case why did the Scottish government try to hide it? Surely they'd have come out all guns blazing??

 

They didn't and probably would have kept it quiet for as long as possible if it hadn't been printed in the Chinese press.

 

Why was that?

Jeeeeez, the hypocrisy is outstanding here.

What did May say about the Brexit negotiations and nobody had a right to know what was going on? [emoji23]

[deesidejambo]

The actual reality is lost on some on here. It just goes to show how utterly ill informed the Scottish electorate are.

 

Reporting Scotland has just finished, cant wait for the barrage of nonsense now.

Didn't you post something from The Scotsman earlier? I thought that was MSM?

 

Or by chance was it something that supports your view, in which case it must be true.

[maroonlegions]

Sturgeon looked pretty shellshocked on BBC being interviewed just now by Jackie B.

 

Trying to take on the Tory Party for deviousness...Found out. Its not a game, alright.

 

Hopefully this is a tipping point where enough people will come to their senses and the hegemony of the SNP dissipates.

 

Labour, SNP or whoever, never a good thing in a small country where one party dominates unchecked for so long. 

Still only one Tory MSP  in Scotland , looking forward to when there are none.

[Space Mackerel]

There is more to it than that though.

 

I bet you don't understand why the SNP never announced the deal when it happened, even though the businesses did. Does anyone understand why the SNP kept quiet about signing a multi-billion business and investment deal?

You're going to tell us right, something to do with fish, trees, wardrobes and mobile phones?

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Still only one Tory MSP  in Scotland , looking forward to when there are none.

31 actually. MSPs that is.

[Space Mackerel]

Didn't you post something from The Scotsman earlier? I thought that was MSM?

 

Or by chance was it something that supports your view, in which case it must be true.

It must have been have hacked by Russians or the CIA, apologies.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Do know what a memorandum of understanding is? It's a consultative process. And it wasn't hidden, she went over there and was photographed with Chinese representatives.

They tried to keep the reasons it went tits up hidden.

[jambogemz]

Do know what a memorandum of understanding is? It's a consultative process. And it wasn't hidden, she went over there and was photographed with Chinese representatives.

I'm asking why she tried to hide the collapse of the MOU? 3 months before the Scottish electorate found out, and we only found out as it was reported in the chinese press.

[Thunderstruck]

What other "extreme" policies were tested on us first? And while I agree they should not have "tested" the poll tax on Scotland first it was still a fair way of raising tax for local use. Another problem was Scottish homes had been re-rated 2 or maybe 3 times before it came in (by local councils I presume) thus making it less attractive to the English.

It was because, in Scotland, the 1995 Domestic Rates Revaluation was not a "zero sum" exercise.

 

Normally the value would rise and the "rate poundage" would drop by a balancing amount meaning the total amount raised would change only marginally - for inflation usually. Within that overall change some house would rise or fall in value to reflect local changes in value.

 

However, in 1985, a long gap between revaluations, and a large change in property values led to hefty changes in Rateable Values but the Rate Poundage did not drop by anywhere near enough to balance leaving significantly higher bill to be paid by ratepayers.

 

Coming at the end of a period of time when mortgage interest rates had hit 15%, that naturally caused considerable upset and a clamour in Scotland for a new system. A new system that they got a couple of years later.

 

The simple answer would have been to fund a reduction in rates bills but the siren voices advicating a tax that reflected the number of residents in a house held sway.

 

It wasn't an experiment or a punishment is was a rather foolish knee-jerk reaction to a more urgent problem north if the border. It was stupid rather than spiteful but that is how history portrays it. Neither was it extreme, other parties had looked at similar models when various Commisions looked at local government funding.

[jambogemz]

Jeeeeez, the hypocrisy is outstanding here.

What did May say about the Brexit negotiations and nobody had a right to know what was going on? [emoji23]

I'm asking why the Scottish government hid the fact the MOU had collapsed. 3 months went by before the Scottish people were aware of its collapse and only because it was printed in the Chinese press.

[aussieh]

Sturgeon openly photographed with Chinese representatives signing a memo of understanding.

 

Opposition - *SECRET DEALS, SNP BAD, CHINA BAD*

 

Deal falls through - *SNP BAD, CHINA GOOD*

 

Actual reality - The opposition parties do nothing for Scotland but talk it down and hold us back. The Chinese stated that they discontinued the memorandum of understanding due to the political fallout in Scotland, i.e. The open hostility displayed by the opposition at the prospect of a deal.

 

Unionists hide from the truth.

I seem to remember the talk of Chinese human rights from Ruth the twisted mooth and Mutley Dugdale. Then the Chinese cancel and she flips because WM sign a deal. Skullduggery.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

I seem to remember the talk of Chinese human rights from Ruth the twisted mooth and Mutley Dugdale. Then the Chinese cancel and she flips because WM sign a deal. Skullduggery.

 

Human rights, who needs 'em.

[Space Mackerel]

It's unbelievable sometimes mate. I can inform myself from abroad, unionists are that disembodied from the truth it's astonishing.

They read the London based press, until they get away from that and start reading other stuff then they are a lost cause.

 

They like to keep you just smart enough to do your job, but dumb enough not to think.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

They read the London based press, until they get away from that and start reading other stuff then they are a lost cause.

 

They like to keep you just smart enough to do your job, but dumb enough not to think.

 Thinking voters read The National.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

I've said it before, SNP could announce that everyone in Scotland was getting free money, and the unionists would still take to the streets to complain at paying capital gains tax on it.

 

They'd get my vote if they did.

[maroonlegions]

31 actually. MSPs that is.

 Ruth Davidson i meant, seats.

[DanishTam10]

They'd get my vote if they did.

 

What's this? Scotch Mist 

 

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independence-will-generate-a-109000000000-asset-windfall-for-scotland/

[jambogemz]

When did Sturgeon try to hide its collapse? As soon it broke down the information was made public, it was in the newspapers and was raised in FMQs and debated. I recall watching the debate live.

No it wasn't. It was a full three months after the breakdown. When pressed the Scottish government blamed "to many announcements at the one time" whatever that means. Go back and check if your sceptical.

 

I'm neither a yes or no voter BTW and have no agenda as far as independence is concerned. I am however interested in the utterly deplorable government record of our current party in power.

[reaths17]

I agree that the impact of both Brexit and independence are concerning, or at least should be to everyone.

 

Do I want Brexit to be a disaster?  Of course not.  Do I want independence at any price?  Of course not.

 

Do I think independence would be better for Scotland than remaining in a hard Brexit UK, yes, I do.  Happy to be convinced otherwise, but (and this will probably come as no surprise) I simply don't trust the Tories to do a competent job.

 

Maybe this means we should wait until the Brexit dust is settled before deciding, but I'm pretty sure that by the time negotiations are at an end, we could make an informed choice then.

as it stands, the incompetence of the SNP is ahead at the moment and theres no way a post independence scotland would be run by anybody else. so is there a point to the expense of independence for much the same governance ?

 

i dont trust any politician, the less of them the better. their nothing more than a bunch of self serving ersoles. brexit reduces that, separation increases it.

[pablo]

If I was a Nationalist I'd be properly ****ed off with the SNP and Salmond/Sturgeon. They appear to be as shite at delivering Scottish Independence as they are providing an effective government.

 

They weren't joking about #SNPbad although #SNPshite might have been better.

[reaths17]

I've said it before, SNP could announce that everyone in Scotland was getting free money, and the unionists would still take to the streets to complain at paying capital gains tax on it.

they already did that one with the black gold, just as well the scottish people didn't fall for that pish

[aussieh]

Human rights, who needs 'em.

Certainly not us after Brexit, oh and how's those Saudis.

[Space Mackerel]

No it wasn't. It was a full three months after the breakdown. When pressed the Scottish government blamed "to many announcements at the one time" whatever that means. Go back and check if your sceptical.

 

I'm neither a yes or no voter BTW and have no agenda as far as independence is concerned. I am however interested in the utterly deplorable government record of our current party in power.

You're actually just starting to learn what went on back then, so I'll take any facts you spout with a massive pinch of salt.

[Space Mackerel]

Sturgeon:

 

"The reaction to that clearly made it less likely that that investment was going to transpire over the short to medium term and the email that has been referred to from the middle of August recognised that: that it was unlikely that investment was going to be able to proceed.

 

"We didn't at that time interpret that email as cancelling the MoU, the commitment to explore options to take investment forward."

 

She added: "In fact, there has continued to be some engagement around that with SinoFortone.

 

You should place your frustrating with the opposition parties scuppering the possibility of a 10billion investment.

You could actually draw similarities with this episode and the Darien project that led to the Union of Scotland and England back in 1707.

 

History repeating?

[aussieh]

It's always comes down to oil. Tell me, how much is Norways oil find worth now?

?600 billion

[DanishTam10]

You could actually draw similarities with this episode and the Darien project that led to the Union of Scotland and England back in 1707.

 

History repeating?

 

A free history lesson here. 

[aussieh]

What's this? Scotch Mist

 

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independence-will-generate-a-109000000000-asset-windfall-for-scotland/

It will at least balance the debt. Scotland's debt share is ?1450 billion our share of assets is ?134 billion.

[jambogemz]

Sturgeon:

 

"The reaction to that clearly made it less likely that that investment was going to transpire over the short to medium term and the email that has been referred to from the middle of August recognised that: that it was unlikely that investment was going to be able to proceed.

 

"We didn't at that time interpret that email as cancelling the MoU, the commitment to explore options to take investment forward."

 

She added: "In fact, there has continued to be some engagement around that with SinoFortone.

 

You should place your frustration with the opposition parties scuppering the possibility of a 10billion investment.

Keith Brown " we were aware sinofortune felt they couldn't move forward with the deal"

 

SNP spokesperson " it was the end of term with just to much going out the door" what on earth does that even mean?

 

Given your quotes from sturgeon it would seem the government got themselves very muddled here.

[Space Mackerel]

A free history lesson here.

Waiting on your synopsis of that BfS article you linked a few posts above.

Anytime you're ready.

[Thunderstruck]

Keith Brown " we were aware sinofortune felt they couldn't move forward with the deal"

 

SNP spokesperson " it was the end of term with just to much going out the door" what on earth does that even mean?

 

Given your quotes from sturgeon it would seem the government got themselves very muddled here.

"Muddled" is being kind.

[jambogemz]

You're actually just starting to learn what went on back then, so I'll take any facts you spout with a massive pinch of salt.

Edit. Forget it.

[reaths17]

It's always comes down to oil. Tell me, how much is Norways oil find worth now?

the fact is, they tried to bribe the people with money just like you what you were slavering.

 

another fact is, that there isn't enough o the black stuff to have a christmas fund in a store.

 

their economic plan last time, with the promise of loadsa dosh from oil, was a shambles, what mythical carrot are they going to dangle this time ?

[jamie1874]

Has it? I completely missed that.

How much is it going up by?

 

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40% tax bracket in rUk is now ?45k

 

Scotland is ?43k. (So ?33 a month / ?400p.a more tax for living in Scotland)

 

If I recall it was Scotland only raised the 40% bracket by Scottish inflation rates and therefore makes it out of sync with the rest of U.K.

 

Add in another ?300p.a council tax and now ?500 more tax a year. (Could be more depending your band)

 

Add in the difference in stamp duty in Scotland too

 

I am sure it will be well spent....

[Boris]

How? Scotland has had the ability for nigh on 20 years to make the country more socially inclusive by increasing income tax.

Not a single government, whether made up of Labour, Lib-Dem, SNP or Green Party, have chosen to do so.

 

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Because the only power was to raise, or lower, the basic rate by 3%. A paper Tiger if ever there was one.