Indy Ref Part Deux

[HaymarketJambo]

If I was a Nationalist I'd be properly ****ed off with the SNP and Salmond/Sturgeon. They appear to be as shite at delivering Scottish Independence as they are providing an effective government.

 

They weren't joking about #SNPbad although #SNPshite might have been better.

 

And the Conservatives are doing a great job on Brexit?

 

Have you seen the shambles the Conservative Party are in?

 

Maggie May can thank her lucky stars she has a rotten Labour Party.   

[Space Mackerel]

Edit. Forget it.

So who torpedoed the Chinese deal, SNP ministers who actually signed the paperwork or the howling media and Yoon politicians?

 

Take your time...

[DanishTam10]

Sturgeon:

 

"The reaction to that clearly made it less likely that that investment was going to transpire over the short to medium term and the email that has been referred to from the middle of August recognised that: that it was unlikely that investment was going to be able to proceed.

 

"We didn't at that time interpret that email as cancelling the MoU, the commitment to explore options to take investment forward."

 

She added: "In fact, there has continued to be some engagement around that with SinoFortone.

 

You should place your frustration with the opposition parties scuppering the possibility of a 10billion investment.

 

 

You could actually draw similarities with this episode and the Darien project that led to the Union of Scotland and England back in 1707.

 

History repeating?

 

So what is the thing that is repeating? 

Scotland attempting to expand it's empire and what exactly

[deesidejambo]

So who torpedoed the Chinese deal, SNP ministers who actually signed the paperwork or the howling media and Yoon politicians?

 

Take your time...

Spacey, do you agree that now that Indy is delayed, the SNP should now work hard with the UK Govt to deliver as good a Brexit as possible for Scotland?

[JamboX2]

Couple May's statement today and her statement in the HOC to Ian Murray's question on Brexit repatriated powers going to Holyrood and a plan of attack forms here for unionists.

 

1. No referendum till we've got a deal.

 

A fair position. If we vote before a deal is reached then you're voting on two probables rather than a concrete position and a probable position. The two uncertainties back the Yes side over No, hence her move there.

 

2. Devolved powers.

 

The devolution settlement provides Scotland full power in a number of areas under EU control. May can legislate in the Great Repeal Act to repatriate these powers to Scotland.

 

In effect - No vote till we know our deal and here's the powers we won't take to WM.

 

There's another reason for this delay in holding a vote:

 

The UK state is struggling to manage Brexit. Civil Servants are 100% focused on it at all levels, including the devolved nations. The UK and devolved administrations cannot cope with the prospect of a hugely significant vote on the future of the nation in the middle of the biggest negotiation it has ever embarked upon. Imagine trying to disentangle the UK from the EU whilst negotiating the end of the Scotland in the UK whilst Scotland began looking to join the EU in her own right. The state wouldn't cope. We'd hit a fundamental crisis of government never seen in a western european nation.

 

So delay is not a bad thing for all concerned.

 

Sturgeon can bash on, in a semi-falsehood, about denying "the will" of people. May can focus on Brexit. And the UK won't sink into an abyss.

[Boris]

What is the cost of Brexit? It hasn't happened yet.

Exactly the same logic with independence, surely?

[aussieh]

It will at least balance the debt. Scotland's debt share is ?145 billion our share of assets is ?134 billion.

[JamboX2]

And the Conservatives are doing a great job on Brexit?

 

Have you seen the shambles the Conservative Party are in?

 

Maggie May can thank her lucky stars she has a rotten Labour Party.

You could argue Salmond and Sturgeon haven't set the heather a light in governining Scotland or done much beyond maintaining the status-quo of services that Lab-Lib introduced between 99-07. And have been lucky in a failing Scottish Labour Party, marginalised Liberal party, weak and compliant Green party and a relatively moderate reflex of Toryism.

[aussieh]

Spacey, do you agree that now that Indy is delayed, the SNP should now work hard with the UK Govt to deliver as good a Brexit as possible for Scotland?

They did, they didn't, end of.

I see name calling is worse than violence in yer scumbag scale.

[Space Mackerel]

Spacey, do you agree that now that Indy is delayed, the SNP should now work hard with the UK Govt to deliver as good a Brexit as possible for Scotland?

Surely that's up to May? Surely she should listen to the electorate up here?

What you're advocating is the SG should just shut up and ignore its overwhelming electorate victory and 63% of the population?

[jambogemz]

So who torpedoed the Chinese deal, SNP ministers who actually signed the paperwork or the howling media and Yoon politicians?

 

Take your time...

Did I ask who "torpedoed" the deal? No, I asked why the Scottish government failed to mention said collapse until it was printed in the chinese press a full 3 months late with a FOI request being used to find out the full extent.

 

"Take your time"? Why on earth do you feel the need to act like a smart arse in almost ever single post? Is it the anonymity of the internet that makes you feel like your chest is puffed out?

 

For a known conspiracy theorist with some outrageous views you certainly seem to revel in trying to belittle people who are asking a straight forward question.

 

I'll repeat for your benefit, I am neither yes or no and shall abstain from voting in this one. I have no agenda as far as independence is concerned and wished whichever side prevailed the best of luck.

 

That doesn't mean to say I can't question the Scottish government and there obvious attempt to muddy the waters here.

[jambogemz]

.

[deesidejambo]

Surely that's up to May? Surely she should listen to the electorate up here?

What you're advocating is the SG should just shut up and ignore its overwhelming electorate victory and 63% of the population?

Not at all.  I asked a question, should the SNP now work hard to try and get the best deal for Scotland in the Brexit discussions?   Simple Yes or No would suffice.

[Boris]

 

1. No referendum till we've got a deal.

 

A fair position. If we vote before a deal is reached then you're voting on two probables rather than a concrete position and a probable position. The two uncertainties back the Yes side over No, hence her move there.

 

2. Devolved powers.

 

The devolution settlement provides Scotland full power in a number of areas under EU control. May can legislate in the Great Repeal Act to repatriate these powers to Scotland.

 

In effect - No vote till we know our deal and here's the powers we won't take to WM.

 

There's another reason for this delay in holding a vote:

 

The UK state is struggling to manage Brexit. Civil Servants are 100% focused on it at all levels, including the devolved nations. The UK and devolved administrations cannot cope with the prospect of a hugely significant vote on the future of the nation in the middle of the biggest negotiation it has ever embarked upon. Imagine trying to disentangle the UK from the EU whilst negotiating the end of the Scotland in the UK whilst Scotland began looking to join the EU in her own right. The state wouldn't cope. We'd hit a fundamental crisis of government never seen in a western european nation.

 

Sturgeon is asking for a vote when the deal regards Brexit is on table. If that deal isn't accepted in eu, then according to may we just leave. So the cards are on the table and we would know either outcome.

 

Regards the civil service, woefully unprepared for Brexit, but that's OK, we should just accept this government's cackhandedniss and cut them slack? Because they have our best interests at heart?

[HaymarketJambo]

You could argue Salmond and Sturgeon haven't set the heather a light in governining Scotland or done much beyond maintaining the status-quo of services that Lab-Lib introduced between 99-07. And have been lucky in a failing Scottish Labour Party, marginalised Liberal party, weak and compliant Green party and a relatively moderate reflex of Toryism.

 

JamboX2, if that's the case why have the SNP won the last 3 elections at Holyrood and have 54 MP's at Westminster?

[Thunderstruck]

the fact is, they tried to bribe the people with money just like you what you were slavering.

 

another fact is, that there isn't enough o the black stuff to have a christmas fund in a store.

 

their economic plan last time, with the promise of loadsa dosh from oil, was a shambles, what mythical carrot are they going to dangle this time ?

It might not have been such a porkie if they hadn't used the total estimated volume of oil instead of volume of ECONOMICALLY RECOVERABLE oil and if they had used tax revenue and royalties instead of wholesale value before deduction of the cost of production and a return for the oil company.

 

That, however, would not have looked anywhere near as attractive. More like "Wytch Farm of the North" than "Kuwait of the North".

 

The sad thing is that the Nats don't want the truth nor will they admit the truth - That Salmond and the SNP lied.

[jambogemz]

JamboX2, if that's the case why have the SNP won the last 3 elections at Holyrood and have 54 MP's at Westminster?

The answer to that is in the last part of his post mate.

[Space Mackerel]

Not at all. I asked a question, should the SNP now work hard to try and get the best deal for Scotland in the Brexit discussions? Simple Yes or No would suffice.

Do we have a choice? Do we actually ever have a choice? We might have a choice if TM listens to us, is that a fair argument?

[The Tartan Trump]

The unionists are utterly rattled at the slightest hint of another referendum. Plenty tears and snotters have been wiped onto Union Jack pillowcases in the last 48 hours.  

[Space Mackerel]

Could well be, would recommend Darien by John Prebble btw, quite an enlightening book.

 

Some talk of the union in terms of partnership, equals, pooling/sharing when in fact it was built on bribery, misery and blackmail.

Spanish and English crowns were involved too, just like today as well so we are led to believe taking Catalonia as reference. [emoji2]

[Space Mackerel]

How can you display frustration at the SNP simply over-estimating the value of oil whilst overlooking the complete mismanagement of the commodity over several generations?

 

This is how you do it, Norway:

 

"It is currently the largest pension fund in Europe and is larger than the California public-employees pension fund (CalPERS), one of the largest public pension funds in the United States. In a parliamentary white paper in April 2011, the Norwegian Ministry of Finance forecast that the fund would reach NOK 4.3 trillion ($717 billion) by the end of 2014 and NOK 6 trillion ($1 trillion) by the end of 2019. According to the forecast the 2030 value of the fund would be NOK 7.4 trillion ($1.3 trillion). A worst-case scenario for the fund value in 2030 was forecast at NOK 2.7 trillion ($455 billion), a best case scenario at NOK 19.6 trillion ($3.3 trillion).[7] By May 2, 2016, the value of the fund was NOK 7.0 trillion ($873 billion)."

And the current Norwegian government, Conservative I believe right now, are only allowed to spend something like 4% of the profit of the investments and their tax take.

[Thunderstruck]

How can you display frustration at the SNP simply over-estimating the value of oil whilst overlooking the complete mismanagement of the commodity over several generations?

 

This is how you do it, Norway:

 

"It is currently the largest pension fund in Europe and is larger than the California public-employees pension fund (CalPERS), one of the largest public pension funds in the United States. In a parliamentary white paper in April 2011, the Norwegian Ministry of Finance forecast that the fund would reach NOK 4.3 trillion ($717 billion) by the end of 2014 and NOK 6 trillion ($1 trillion) by the end of 2019. According to the forecast the 2030 value of the fund would be NOK 7.4 trillion ($1.3 trillion). A worst-case scenario for the fund value in 2030 was forecast at NOK 2.7 trillion ($455 billion), a best case scenario at NOK 19.6 trillion ($3.3 trillion).[7] By May 2, 2016, the value of the fund was NOK 7.0 trillion ($873 billion)."

Deflection.

 

The point I made was not about the HISTORY of the value of oil. Instead it was about DELIBERATE FALSEHOOD designed specifically to gull the less well-informed voters. It seems you fall into that group.

[deesidejambo]

How can you display frustration at the SNP simply over-estimating the value of oil whilst overlooking the complete mismanagement of the commodity over several generations?

 

This is how you do it, Norway:

 

"It is currently the largest pension fund in Europe and is larger than the California public-employees pension fund (CalPERS), one of the largest public pension funds in the United States. In a parliamentary white paper in April 2011, the Norwegian Ministry of Finance forecast that the fund would reach NOK 4.3 trillion ($717 billion) by the end of 2014 and NOK 6 trillion ($1 trillion) by the end of 2019. According to the forecast the 2030 value of the fund would be NOK 7.4 trillion ($1.3 trillion). A worst-case scenario for the fund value in 2030 was forecast at NOK 2.7 trillion ($455 billion), a best case scenario at NOK 19.6 trillion ($3.3 trillion).[7] By May 2, 2016, the value of the fund was NOK 7.0 trillion ($873 billion)."

Why are there food banks in Norway?

[aussieh]

And the current Norwegian government, Conservative I believe right now, are only allowed to spend something like 4% of the profit of the investments and their tax take.

What do you make of the N.Lanarkshire council intending on using the attainment money for headmasters on other things, to stop them having to put up council tax they screamed for ,for years. Unbelievable.

[Space Mackerel]

What do you make of the N.Lanarkshire council intending on using the attainment money for headmasters on other things, to stop them having to put up council tax they screamed for ,for years. Unbelievable.

North Lanarkshire Council are pretty much a Labour run Mafia enterprise. They've been fingered enough times over the last 20 years nothing would surprise me.

 

They'll be getting the boot in May anyway, and some of them the tin pail I would imagine.

[pablo]

What do you make of the N.Lanarkshire council intending on using the attainment money for headmasters on other things, to stop them having to put up council tax they screamed for ,for years. Unbelievable.

North Lanarkshire lol. Yep, that's where I'd like the bar set.

[DanishTam10]

It's gotten a bit white noise in this thread. 

[Thunderstruck]

What do you make of the N.Lanarkshire council intending on using the attainment money for headmasters on other things, to stop them having to put up council tax they screamed for ,for years. Unbelievable.

What do you make of the (SNP) Scottish Government using 15% the Barnett Funding for NHS Scotland on other things. Unbelievable.

[aussieh]

North Lanarkshire lol. Yep, that's where I'd like the bar set.

I only asked as I heard about it today. They're not getting the dough unless it goes to the Heads of the schools to close the attainment gap, as planned. What's your opinion on it?

[deesidejambo]

Do we have a choice? Do we actually ever have a choice? We might have a choice if TM listens to us, is that a fair argument?

Yes you do have a choice. You either try to get the best deal possible or you whine that you won't be listened to and hence not support Scotlands interests.

 

Thought you would choose the latter.

[MacDonald Jardine]

40% tax bracket in rUk is now ?45k

 

Scotland is ?43k. (So ?33 a month / ?400p.a more tax for living in Scotland)

 

If I recall it was Scotland only raised the 40% bracket by Scottish inflation rates and therefore makes it out of sync with the rest of U.K.

 

Add in another ?300p.a council tax and now ?500 more tax a year. (Could be more depending your band)

 

Add in the difference in stamp duty in Scotland too

 

I am sure it will be well spent....

Fair enough.

I knew about the Council Tax changes but not the Income Tax.

 

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[DanishTam10]

North Lanarkshire Council are pretty much a Labour run Mafia enterprise. They've been fingered enough times over the last 20 years nothing would surprise me.

 

They'll be getting the boot in May anyway, and some of them the tin pail I would imagine.

 

Settle.

[By The Light..]

JamboX2, if that's the case why have the SNP won the last 3 elections at Holyrood and have 54 MP's at Westminster?

They have had political victories because are a fashionable cult maybe?

 

But JamboX2 was asking what have they done with all that time in power...

 

Square root of zero.

 

Tartan communists.

[MacDonald Jardine]

You could argue Salmond and Sturgeon haven't set the heather a light in governining Scotland or done much beyond maintaining the status-quo of services that Lab-Lib introduced between 99-07. And have been lucky in a failing Scottish Labour Party, marginalised Liberal party, weak and compliant Green party and a relatively moderate reflex of Toryism.

Indeed you could.

You could also argue that their idea of devolving power mysteriously stops when it reaches Edinburgh.

 

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[pablo]

I only asked as I heard about it today. They're not getting the dough unless it goes to the Heads of the schools to close the attainment gap, as planned. What's your opinion on it?

I'm all for schools getting individual budgets, with a Head and governors responsible for recruiting the staff they want and setting a plan to educate their children. More power to a schools individual needs and a focus on personal responsibility will close the attainment gap.

 

The SNP are going to lose the support of teachers in the near future in my opinion.

 

It's their number one priority though, so I'm sure they're on it ?

[Space Mackerel]

Yes you do have a choice. You either try to get the best deal possible or you whine that you won't be listened to and hence not support Scotlands interests.

 

Thought you would choose the latter.

No ones whining apart from the Yoons on here about Indy 2.

It's my democratic right to stand up and challenge anything I don't/do agree with.

So yeah, I don't agree with Brexit and I agree with an independent Scotland. Much like the majority north of the border.

[pablo]

Indeed you could.

You could also argue that their idea of devolving power mysteriously stops when it reaches Edinburgh.

 

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Such an interesting thought. Is it time for Fair Edina to think about jettisoning the millstone of a failing divided Scotland?

[MacDonald Jardine]

How can you display frustration at the SNP simply over-estimating the value of oil whilst overlooking the complete mismanagement of the commodity over several generations?

 

This is how you do it, Norway:

 

"It is currently the largest pension fund in Europe and is larger than the California public-employees pension fund (CalPERS), one of the largest public pension funds in the United States. In a parliamentary white paper in April 2011, the Norwegian Ministry of Finance forecast that the fund would reach NOK 4.3 trillion ($717 billion) by the end of 2014 and NOK 6 trillion ($1 trillion) by the end of 2019. According to the forecast the 2030 value of the fund would be NOK 7.4 trillion ($1.3 trillion). A worst-case scenario for the fund value in 2030 was forecast at NOK 2.7 trillion ($455 billion), a best case scenario at NOK 19.6 trillion ($3.3 trillion).[7] By May 2, 2016, the value of the fund was NOK 7.0 trillion ($873 billion)."

That's what we should have done.

But we didn't because of Thatchers philosophy.

The question is what we do now.

 

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[pablo]

Pair of jeans.

[Captain Sausage]

No ones whining apart from the Yoons on here about Indy 2.

It's my democratic right to stand up and challenge anything I don't/do agree with.

So yeah, I don't agree with Brexit and I agree with an independent Scotland. Much like the majority north of the border.

The majority north of the border are against an independent Scotland. Refer to the independence referendum.

 

The fact you continually lie, misrepresent figures and quotes, really does show you in a very poor light.

[MacDonald Jardine]

I'm all for schools getting individual budgets, with a Head and governors responsible for recruiting the staff they want and setting a plan to educate their children. More power to a schools individual needs and a focus on personal responsibility will close the attainment gap.

 

The SNP are going to lose the support of teachers in the near future in my opinion.

 

It's their number one priority though, so I'm sure they're on it ?

Are you really?

I work in that sector and in my experience the Head Teachers most in favour of this are the ones least capable of actually doing it.

 

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[DanishTam10]

That's what we should have done.

But we didn't because of Thatchers philosophy.

The question is what we do now.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

Talking about what other countries have done, and talking about stuff from 30 years ago is just distracting yourselves from what is happening now. 

[Space Mackerel]

The majority north of the border are against an independent Scotland. Refer to the independence referendum.

 

The fact you continually lie, misrepresent figures and quotes, really does show you in a very poor light.

Where are your figures referenced from? Links please.

[The Tartan Trump]

They have had political victories because are a fashionable cult maybe?

 

But JamboX2 was asking what have they done with all that time in power...

 

Square root of zero.

 

Tartan communists.

No, no, no you're doing it wrong. It's Tartan tory's not Tartan communists.

Got to stay on message.

[DanishTam10]

No ones whining apart from the Yoons on here about Indy 2.

It's my democratic right to stand up and challenge anything I don't/do agree with.

So yeah, I don't agree with Brexit and I agree with an independent Scotland. Much like the majority north of the border.

 

Space Mackerel, please can you stop saying "Yoons" and "Yoonland".

[Space Mackerel]

Talking about what other countries have done, and talking about stuff from 30 years ago is just distracting yourselves from what is happening now.

In other words...ignore any history, I'm willing to learn nothing.

[deesidejambo]

No ones whining apart from the Yoons on here about Indy 2.

It's my democratic right to stand up and challenge anything I don't/do agree with.

So yeah, I don't agree with Brexit and I agree with an independent Scotland. Much like the majority north of the border.

It's ok I knew you can't bring yourself to support constructive discussions.

 

The reason is you know it's in the SNPs interests to mess up the Brexit deal as much as possible to support another crack at Indy.

[JamboX2]

Sturgeon is asking for a vote when the deal regards Brexit is on table. If that deal isn't accepted in eu, then according to may we just leave. So the cards are on the table and we would know either outcome.

All that's fair. But a deal will be done. The costs on either sideare too much. Will it be good? Who knows at this stage.

 

Sturgeon is asking for a blank cheque on when it best suits her.

 

We should have a vote but the timing should not be used as a political tool. It should also not be when the result of Brexit is not yet fully known.

 

Add thisto the equation, either way Scotland would become independent outside the single market and the EU. So she can't use the mitigation argument or the "other option" line.

 

It's a falsehood. If Brexit takes 2 + years to negotiate how long will Independence take? This whole debate is based on instants. These things will take years of hard work and hardship to achieve.

 

Regards the civil service, woefully unprepared for Brexit, but that's OK, we should just accept this government's cackhandedniss and cut them slack? Because they have our best interests at heart?

They're unprepared because the work they need to do to achieve was done by the EU. Like it or not most government contingencies are likely not to incorporate the idea that whilst you are leaving one union your own union is bteaking apart.

 

You need to distinguish the civil service from its political masters. The Scottish Government was reportedly massively underprepared to negotiate independence. It likely still is. Is Brexit any surprise on that?

 

You also realise Brexit is very much a playing out of independence occurring. This would've similarly been a war of words to begin with, cack-handedness and civil service shortcomings. As every, both will or would be fudged at the end.

[pablo]

Are you really?

I work in that sector and in my experience the Head Teachers most in favour of this are the ones least capable of actually doing it.

 

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Seems to work okay in independent schools. We should steal with pride.

 

Anyway off topic

[JamboX2]

Indeed you could.

You could also argue that their idea of devolving power mysteriously stops when it reaches Edinburgh.

 

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Who? The SNP? Agreed if so.