Indy Ref Part Deux

[MacDonald Jardine]

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

Very good post. If you listen to a number of the Nationalists it isn't a game but a cause.

Independence never mind the cost.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

Imagine this was all taking place in another country say Russia and another country wanted to break away.

You would be ****** a hoop and so would the MSM here at Putin if he denied them a democratic vote.

 

Whys here so different?

[AlphonseCapone]

Very good post. If you listen to a number of the Nationalists it isn't a game but a cause.

Independence never mind the cost.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Just to check, when you say independence never mind the cost, does that mean if brexit looks a worse choice than independence then you'd vote for Independence?

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

It's a huge leap into the unknown and nationalists can only give reassurance up to a point regarding the economy. But no politician anywhere in the world controls and manages the economy like a family balancing a household budget. Everyone knows that, right?

[MacDonald Jardine]

Imagine this was all taking place in another country say Russia and another country wanted to break away.

You would be ****** a hoop and so would the MSM here at Putin if he denied them a democratic vote.

 

Whys here so different?

Because we've already had a vote, which was pushed by the Holyrood government notwithstanding the fact it's outwith their authority.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[MacDonald Jardine]

Just to check, when you say independence never mind the cost, does that mean if brexit looks a worse choice than independence then you'd vote for Independence?

Yes.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Boris]

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

 

I agree that the impact of both Brexit and independence are concerning, or at least should be to everyone.

 

Do I want Brexit to be a disaster?  Of course not.  Do I want independence at any price?  Of course not.

 

Do I think independence would be better for Scotland than remaining in a hard Brexit UK, yes, I do.  Happy to be convinced otherwise, but (and this will probably come as no surprise) I simply don't trust the Tories to do a competent job.

 

Maybe this means we should wait until the Brexit dust is settled before deciding, but I'm pretty sure that by the time negotiations are at an end, we could make an informed choice then.

[AlphonseCapone]

Yes.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Cool. Cheers.

[HaymarketJambo]

Very good post. If you listen to a number of the Nationalists it isn't a game but a cause.

Independence never mind the cost.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

The same could be said about a independent Britain?  

[Doogz]

Imagine this was all taking place in another country say Russia and another country wanted to break away.

You would be ****** a hoop and so would the MSM here at Putin if he denied them a democratic vote.

 

Whys here so different?

 Sorry - what leads you to believe I'd be delighted if this was happening in Russia ?

FWIW - I'm more concerned about what happens here as it has a direct impact on me & my family - surely that's not too difficult to understand.

[maroonlegions]

Even more skulduggery and sneakiness from the party now renamed the "Selfservatives" .

 

 

 

 

Every ounce of their down right unfairness that gains media attention up here surely is an own goal.

 

This "Selfservative" government  are not doing themselves  any favours up here.  

[Don Dan]

Imagine this was all taking place in another country say Russia and another country wanted to break away.

You would be ****** a hoop and so would the MSM here at Putin if he denied them a democratic vote.

Whys here so different?

Putin and democracy eh!

 

[MacDonald Jardine]

The same could be said about a independent Britain?

It could and I think Brexit is a potential game changer as far as Scottish Independence is concerned.

I just don't think we know enough about it yet and I'm still not convinced the UK will actually leave the EU.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

Sorry - what leads you to believe I'd be delighted if this was happening in Russia ?

FWIW - I'm more concerned about what happens here as it has a direct impact on me & my family - surely that's not too difficult to understand.

****** a hoop was the wrong words. You would all be on here shouting dictator and all sorts of nastiness. MSM would be full of it too.

 

Are you not concerned what's happening under Brexit? If you've got kids you want them heading off to work in a few years with their employment and human rights torn up?

[Space Mackerel]

Because we've already had a vote, which was pushed by the Holyrood government notwithstanding the fact it's outwith their authority.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

But they said we were going to be an Union of equal partners, stay in the EU and promised us all sorts of new powers.

 

What did we end up with, DC standing outside no 10 the day after telling us there will be EVEL.

[MacDonald Jardine]

****** a hoop was the wrong words. You would all be on here shouting dictator and all sorts of nastiness. MSM would be full of it too.

 

Are you not concerned what's happening under Brexit? If you've got kids you want them heading off to work in a few years with their employment and human rights torn up?

Assuming we retain the same constitutional arrangements we have at the moment Human Rights is not a reserved matter so Scotland could still recognise the ECHR.

In fact it was introduced in Scotland first through the devolution Act.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Don Dan]

I agree that the impact of both Brexit and independence are concerning, or at least should be to everyone.

 

Do I want Brexit to be a disaster?  Of course not.  Do I want independence at any price?  Of course not.

 

Do I think independence would be better for Scotland than remaining in a hard Brexit UK, yes, I do.  Happy to be convinced otherwise, but (and this will probably come as no surprise) I simply don't trust the Tories to do a competent job.

 

Maybe this means we should wait until the Brexit dust is settled before deciding, but I'm pretty sure that by the time negotiations are at an end, we could make an informed choice then.

I think Governments will be pushed to oneside and it will be Big Buisness (and Small) that will create the direction and final outcome of Brexit.

[Doogz]

I agree that the impact of both Brexit and independence are concerning, or at least should be to everyone.

 

Do I want Brexit to be a disaster?  Of course not.  Do I want independence at any price?  Of course not.

 

Do I think independence would be better for Scotland than remaining in a hard Brexit UK, yes, I do.  Happy to be convinced otherwise, but (and this will probably come as no surprise) I simply don't trust the Tories to do a competent job.

 

Maybe this means we should wait until the Brexit dust is settled before deciding, but I'm pretty sure that by the time negotiations are at an end, we could make an informed choice then.

 

Just to be clear - my post was about some posters and I certainly didn't mean to imply that included you (or all pro-independence posters). You're clearly more pro-independence than I am but you're prepared to discuss the potential negative impacts as well as the positive in a reasonable manner. This is the sort of discussion that is certainly going to give me more information and may even make me become more pro-independence.

As I mentioned earlier, we can't negotiate any trade agreements with other nations until Brexit is complete - so I'm not sure how quickly we'll be better informed on this aspect of Brexit. Hopefully, as these discussion are likely to be with single nations (US, Australia, Japan etc.) they will be concluded more quickly than the EU negotiations - and we'll have the information before the next referendum.

[Nookie Bear]

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

Prosperity does not suit the Nats agenda.

 

The more food banks, the better.

Companies pulling out post-Brexit, causing mass unemployment? Excellent news.

[MacDonald Jardine]

But they said we were going to be an Union of equal partners, stay in the EU and promised us all sorts of new powers.

 

What did we end up with, DC standing outside no 10 the day after telling us there will be EVEL.

I think the new powers will come but it's all taken a back seat to the EU vote, which for me was one of the most cowardly acts in political history on Cameron's part.

Bear in mind though no Scottish Government has fully used the powers they already have.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Just to be clear - my post was about some posters and I certainly didn't mean to imply that included you (or all pro-independence posters). You're clearly more pro-independence than I am but you're prepared to discuss the potential negative impacts as well as the positive in a reasonable manner. This is the sort of discussion that is certainly going to give me more information and may even make me become more pro-independence.

As I mentioned earlier, we can't negotiate any trade agreements with other nations until Brexit is complete - so I'm not sure how quickly we'll be better informed on this aspect of Brexit. Hopefully, as these discussion are likely to be with single nations (US, Australia, Japan etc.) they will be concluded more quickly than the EU negotiations - and we'll have the information before the next referendum.

So why mention it then? What you did was one of the biggest problems with online debate on any subject - taking extreme fringe behaviour and lumping it in with more moderate voices on the "other side" of the debate. So many people do this but the fringe behaviour is almost always evenly split.

[Adam Murray]

So why mention it then? What you did was one of the biggest problems with online debate on any subject - taking extreme fringe behaviour and lumping it in with more moderate voices on the "other side" of the debate. So many people do this but the fringe behaviour is almost always evenly split.

 

 

To be fair, in his original post he did say 'some'

[Doogz]

****** a hoop was the wrong words. You would all be on here shouting dictator and all sorts of nastiness. MSM would be full of it too.

 

Are you not concerned what's happening under Brexit? If you've got kids you want them heading off to work in a few years with their employment and human rights torn up?

 

Honestly, I don't think I'd be on here shouting anything - it wouldn't impact me directly and it doesn't seem that big a deal yet - All that has happened so far is the Prime Minister has said it isn't the right time. She hasn't said it can't happen. It's not even officially gone to Westminster for them to make a decision on yet so its hardly worth me getting excited about it if something similar happened in Russia.

If you would take the time to read my earlier posts you'll see I'm hugely concerned about the impact of Brexit - largely from an economic perspective.

[Space Mackerel]

I think the new powers will come but it's all taken a back seat to the EU vote, which for me was one of the most cowardly acts in political history on Cameron's part.

Bear in mind though no Scottish Government has fully used the powers they already have.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

So we are agreed, the last lot of promises that were made by the 3 amigos on the eve of the 2014 vote were a pack of lies.

[loveofthegame]

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

 

Best post I've read on the thread. I would vote for Independence tomorrow if I believed it would be for the better of our country, myself, my friends and family.

 

Based on the information I have I think it would be an economic disaster and it is for that reason alone that I am out. That may change in 10/20 years.

[MacDonald Jardine]

So we are agreed, the last lot of promises that were made by the 3 amigos on the eve of the 2014 vote were a pack of lies.

No. Can you not read?

Cameron promised more powers, which are being negotiated.

To keep his job he also promised a referendum on EU membership.

That, unsurprisingly, has taken priority.

 

Would you care to answer the point about us not using all the powers we currently have anyway?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[jack D and coke]

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

There's a serious lack of this type of thinking for me I totally agree with you. This hoping each other's country will burn is pretty unsavoury stuff.

I'm not looking forward to the next two years politically.

[Doogz]

So why mention it then? What you did was one of the biggest problems with online debate on any subject - taking extreme fringe behaviour and lumping it in with more moderate voices on the "other side" of the debate. So many people do this but the fringe behaviour is almost always evenly split.

 

I've not yet decided which side of the debate I'm on - as I've mentioned in my earlier posts I just want more information and more healthy debate.

The posts from some of the more extreme posters (on both sides) detract from this and I find it depressing. I thought that point was fairly clear in the earlier post but apologies for any confusion.

[Space Mackerel]

No. Can you not read?

Cameron promised more powers, which are being negotiated.

To keep his job he also promised a referendum on EU membership.

That, unsurprisingly, has taken priority.

 

Would you care to answer the point about us not using all the powers we currently have anyway?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

They've already been negotiated under the Smith Commission, they are listed below.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/27/scottish-devolution-smith-commission-key-points

 

There are states in the US with more fiscal powers than Scotland has.

[MacDonald Jardine]

They've already been negotiated under the Smith Commission, they are listed below.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/27/scottish-devolution-smith-commission-key-points

 

There are states in the US with more fiscal powers than Scotland has.

Maybe but the United States came into being with individual states' rights at the forefront.

I'll repeat though: no Scottish Government has fully used the fiscal rights it has.

Against that background do they in reality need more?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[luckydug]

Whats wrong with suggesting that the FM might be trying to bluff the UK government into waiting until after Brexit is complete if she believes that Brexit is a disaster that Scotland didn't vote for ?

Doesn't mean to say that anyone wants it to be a disaster although many people think it will be.

Anyway I agree with the link below.

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/03/16/may-just-handed-nicola-sturgeon-the-greatest-gift

[Space Mackerel]

Maybe but the United States came into being with individual states' rights at the forefront.

I'll repeat though: no Scottish Government has fully used the fiscal rights it has.

Against that background do they in reality need more?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Did you notice it the list it can keep all future onshore fracking receipts but not offshore, why is that?

[MacDonald Jardine]

Did you notice it the list it can keep all future onshore fracking receipts but not offshore, why is that?

I'd imagine they're trying to keep potential revenue.

I'll ask you outright: what in reality would a future Scottish Government do with new powers that the current one couldn't?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Space Mackerel]

I'd imagine they're trying to keep potential revenue.

I'll ask you outright: what in reality would a future Scottish Government do with new powers that the current one couldn't?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

You're damn right they are trying to protect future revenue for the UK treasury but according to several posters on here oil is finished.

 

To answer your question, makes this country a bit more richer and socially inclusive and stop Westminster asset stripping it as it has done for the last god knows how many years.

[jambo lodge]

Did you notice it the list it can keep all future onshore fracking receipts but not offshore, why is that?

 

Which part of the Smith Commission, which the SNP and the Greens were full members off have not been implemented? 

[aussieh]

Very good post. If you listen to a number of the Nationalists it isn't a game but a cause.

Independence never mind the cost.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Fecking right, and works both ways BTW.

[Nookie Bear]

To answer your question, makes this country a bit more richer and socially inclusive.

How would that work?

[Boris]

Just to be clear - my post was about some posters and I certainly didn't mean to imply that included you (or all pro-independence posters). You're clearly more pro-independence than I am but you're prepared to discuss the potential negative impacts as well as the positive in a reasonable manner. This is the sort of discussion that is certainly going to give me more information and may even make me become more pro-independence.

As I mentioned earlier, we can't negotiate any trade agreements with other nations until Brexit is complete - so I'm not sure how quickly we'll be better informed on this aspect of Brexit. Hopefully, as these discussion are likely to be with single nations (US, Australia, Japan etc.) they will be concluded more quickly than the EU negotiations - and we'll have the information before the next referendum.

I didn't think you meant me, he says pompously

 

I agree with a lot that you say, and debate that is measured is a good thing.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree with people and if I learn something or even someone learns or even thinks about something due to reasoned debate, then everyone wins.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Does she wuff.

 

An unelected Prime Minister with no mandate to Govern in Scotland undermining the Scottish Electorate and Scottish devolution.

 

She's a dictator.

 

Utter nonsense. 

[manaliveits105]

NOW IS NOT THE TIME

[Seymour M Hersh]

Stupid decision by May, she's played into the SNP's hands.

They can now claim she's the one preventing a referendum and going "against democracy" and "ignoring Scotland" given they were voted in with that as a policy. At the same time they'll avoid the risk of a 50:50 referendum.

 

They'll always find a grievance of some sort to bump their gums about. It's all they do. It would be nice if she concentrated on the day job once in a while though.

[deesidejambo]

So hopefully things will now settle down for a while and the SNP play a role in Brexit negotiations without the "we will call a referendum if we don't get our way" bollocks.  

 

Sadly its in the SNPs interest now to mess Brexit up so their credibility will be tested.

 

In the longer term Nicola will know that she needs to get to 60% support before pushing again.   I'm not sure that will be as easy as some think.

 

But no matter what happens, Scotland is now bitterly divided as this thread demonstrates.    Those who suggest this is all a big game to be played for glib fun are not helping to heal the divisions.

[jambogemz]

Cringeworthy?

 

Politically astute is the description you should be using.

Politically astute? Are You having a laugh? This is the same woman that blew a multi bilion trade deal with China and tried to sweep it under the carpet which she succeeded in doing for 3 months.

 

Why not ask some of the people within the NHS how astute they think she is.

[Seymour M Hersh]

When will people realise that in the U.K. We vote for the PARTY and not the INDIVIDUAL, this is not the U.S.A.

 

You probably require an IQ above 10 to understand this basic information.

[Space Mackerel]

Politically astute? Are You having a laugh? This is the same woman that blew a multi bilion trade deal with China and tried to sweep it under the carpet which she succeeded in doing for 3 months.

 

Why not ask some of the people within the NHS how astute they think she is.

Here we go again. If you actually knew the ins and outs of that "trade deal" you will find the Chinese got serious misgivings after Roof started chucking her oar in and started stirring shite. It's al there if you want to fact check.

 

And it wasn't even near a trade deal as such.

[1874robbo]

Politically astute? Are You having a laugh? This is the same woman that blew a multi bilion trade deal with China and tried to sweep it under the carpet which she succeeded in doing for 3 months.

 

Why not ask some of the people within the NHS how astute they think she is.

I posted the link about the China debacle and no surprise not one snp supporter commented on it, big brush in operation.

[Space Mackerel]

Oh dear, NS popularity rises and 60/40 for new indyref2, on The Scotsman's website of all. The last bastion of Unionism in Scotland.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/nicola-sturgeon-popularity-rises-as-unionist-approval-falls-1-4393367

 

[jambogemz]

I posted the link about the China debacle and no surprise not one snp supporter commented on it, big brush in operation.

He's gone on to blame Ruth Davidson by the looks of it.

 

You've got to wonder though, if that really was the case then why did the Scottish government try and sweep it under the carpet.

 

Very strange eh!!!

[1874robbo]

Oh dear, NS popularity rises and 60/40 for new indyref2, on The Scotsman's website of all. The last bastion of Unionism in Scotland.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/nicola-sturgeon-popularity-rises-as-unionist-approval-falls-1-4393367

 

From the same website you got that.

It's actually over 162,000 now

 

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/petition-against-indyref2-reaches-over-145-000-signatures-1-4392634

[1874robbo]

He's gone on to blame Ruth Davidson by the looks of it.

 

You've got to wonder though, if that really was the case then why did the Scottish government try and sweep it under the carpet.

 

Very strange eh!!!

Correct, it certainly makes you wonder.