Indy Ref Part Deux

[i8hibsh]

I?m getting sick and tired of all the special treatment the SNP and Nats think that should be given to this country.  Sturgeon wanted a special Brexit deal for Scotland now they want another ref even although it is very inconvenient and they have literally just had one.  Like it or not we are part of the UK and it is not in our best interests right now and the world does not revolve around this country.

[punkrockcroc]

Spot on.

 

And from a unelected Prime Minister as well.

 

When will people realise that in the U.K. We vote for the PARTY and not the INDIVIDUAL, this is not the U.S.A.

[Space Mackerel]

Ok well TM has said no referendum will be granted until Brexit. Brexit could take 2 years, so it's going to be 2 years possibly before the SNP can ask permission for a referendum, if granted it will take time before one can logistically be held maybe 18months maybe more. Not rocket science.

 

 

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So what'll happen is that Holyrood will have its vote, it will pass, NS approaches Maggie May with the preferred date of Aug 2018, she knocks it back and surely signs the Unions death warrant by that. 

 

Suits me just dandy. 

[Space Mackerel]

When will people realise that in the U.K. We vote for the PARTY and not the INDIVIDUAL, this is not the U.S.A.

 

Who voted for a hard Brexit?

[luckydug]

I think the PM has made a mistake not facing up to the independence question.

Even as a Yes voter I think the No side would win at the moment. Not enough has changed since the last time.

I also think Nicola Sturgeon has bluffed the PM because the UK is in for a rough time in the coming months and years.

The UK could be in turmoil by the time the PM finally has to face up to a Scottish referendum and she will have to face up to it eventually. There is also the possibility of having a newly elected Tory government in office which would not be popular in Scotland and could boost the Yes vote.

Nicola Sturgeon was bluffing by calling for a referendum so quickly the PM has fell feet first into the trap.

[AlphonseCapone]

Not really I'm pissing myself laughing at the teeth gnashers shouting on MP's resigning and calling for referendums even though they've been refused, and the angry name calling thats started from them.

 

Maybe they'll hold another vigil in George square haha

 

 

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Hopefully it's only a vigil and not a copy of the horrible scenes we seen there from the unionists last time

[The Don]

So what'll happen is that Holyrood will have its vote, it will pass, NS approaches Maggie May with the preferred date of Aug 2018, she knocks it back and surely signs the Unions death warrant by that.

 

Suits me just dandy.

 

Not correct, May has not said No to a referendum just not while Brexit is taking place. After Brexit one can be held. That's not difficult to understand. Brexit can take up to 2 years from triggering article 50 which hasn't even been triggered yet.

 

 

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[Cruyff Turn]

Absolute nonsense. Under UK constitutional law the SNP have to ask permission and that permission has to be granted for any outcome to be acted on. The SNP and Scottish government signed up to this agreement.

 

Dry your eyes there won't be any UDI

 

 

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The Edinburgh agreement is not constitutional law, it is more a treaty.

 

Teresa May doesn't not have to power to say yes or no. She is not a President despite what you may believe, she is an MP who was elected by fellow Tory MP's, who 58 out of 59 constituencies in Scotland rejected.

 

And on UDI, we could in many ways declare UDI, if we had a Referendum and voted yes is certainly one of them. Nothing WM could do about it except, like us, argue their case under International Law.

[The Don]

Who voted for a hard Brexit?

No one.

 

It's not even happened yet. The EU have been dictating so far meaning it looks like a hard Brexit however that could change during negotiations. That's the whole point of negotiations. Tusk already softened his language yesterday compared to what he's been saying previously.

 

 

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[The Don]

The Edinburgh agreement is not constitutional law, it is more a treaty.

 

Teresa May doesn't not have to power to say yes or no. She is not a President despite what you may believe, she is an MP who was elected by fellow Tory MP's, who 58 out of 59 constituencies in Scotland rejected.

 

And on UDI, we could in many ways declare UDI, if we had a Referendum and voted yes is certainly one of them. Nothing WM could do about it except, like us, argue their case under International Law.

Ah so law only suits when it's helping you. A referendum without Westminster consent means nothing. You can shake your rattle all you like it won't happen the way you would like it.

 

 

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[Adam Murray]

This is from The Herald last September

 

The Herald (7-9-16) commented that:

This Bill would then be presented to the Scottish Parliament and debated. If the Parliament voted to pass it, then it could become an official "Act" of the Scottish Parliament. Calling a referendum would then be an official "thing" which the Parliament is going to do.The publication of a draft Referendum Bill is an essential step in the legislative process before it can be voted upon in the Holyrood chamber. A consultation on the bill will be launched by June 2017 at the latest. (1)

However, there are at least 4 legal problems for Ms Sturgeon here.

1. HOLYROOD HAS NO LEGAL COMPETENCY TO HOLD A REFERENDUM ON THE UNION
The legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament derives from the Scotland Act 1998. (2)

It states under Section 29, Paras 1 and 2

As per Schedule 5, Para 1 "the Union" of Scotland and England is a reserved matter.(1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament.
(2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply-
 it relates to reserved matters

This means that a Bill "relating to" the reserved matter of the Union is not within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

2. THE PRESIDING OFFICER MUST FORBID THE PRESENTATION OF SUCH A BILL
The Presiding Officer has a duty to ensure that all Bills which are presented to the Scottish Parliament are within the legislative competence of the Parliament.

He has this duty under Section 31, Para 2 of the Scotland Act 1998, which states:

Since a Bill requiring the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum on the Union is not a competency of the Scottish Parliament, then the Presiding Officer is obliged to state that it is not a competency of the Parliament, and that it cannot go forward to Parliament.31 Scrutiny of Bills before introduction.
(2) The Presiding Officer shall, on or before the introduction of a Bill in the Parliament, decide whether or not in his view the provisions of the Bill would be within the legislative competence of the Parliament and state his decision.

The SNP believes, however, that Holyrood does have the right to pass such a Bill.

In its report, The Herald added that "Any legally binding second independence referendum would require the consent of Westminster but SNP sources insisted that the draft bill would be legally competent."

Of course, "SNP sources" can be expected to say this.

3. AN ILLEGAL BILL CANNOT RECEIVE ROYAL ASSENT
If it somehow goes forward and is voted upon, then it would require Royal Assent to become a legal Act. At this stage, the Supreme Court would become involved, as per Section 32, Para 3(a) of the Scotland Act 1998 which states:

Providing the Supreme Court considers that it is within the authority of the Scottish Parliament to pass such a Bill and that it is legal for the Queen to grant her Royal Assent (and all of that seems very unlikely) then it still means that...32 Submission of Bills for Royal Assent.
(3) The Presiding Officer shall not submit a Bill in its unamended form for Royal Assent if-
(a) the [supreme Court has] decided that the Bill or any provision of it would not be within the legislative competence of the Parliament

4. THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, ACTING ON BEHALF OF ALL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM, HAS THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE
If all the above barriers were somehow overcome, then it is still ultimately down to the British Government, and the British Parliament, representing all the British people, to decide whether it wants to put the United Kingdom through this process again.

It is up to our collective British Parliament, representing everyone in the United Kingdom, to decide whether or not it is prepared to risk, once again, the territorial integrity of the British State and Nation.

This is a crucial point!

Everyone in the UK is invested in a referendum which could potentially break up the entire UK! A referendum is not "just a matter for Scotland". It is a crucial matter for everyone in the UK. That is why the British Parliament, representing everyone in the UK, has to have the final say.

If there were even the slightest suggestion (which there most certainly is) that the referendum could be lost and the UK destroyed, then the referendum must not be allowed to go ahead.

Breaking up Britain is not for Scotland alone to decide. It's a matter for everyone wherever they live who believes in Britain and who values being British. The ultimate decision on a referendum rests with the Collective Constitutional Authority which represents everyone in Britain ? the British Parliament.

Scottish Nationalists don't believe the authority lies with the British Parliament because they don't accept that Britain is a Nation with a Collective Constitutional Centre. However, if we accept that Britain is a Nation then we understand that the British Parliament has the ultimate authority, the perfect right and the absolute duty to maintain it as one.

HOW DID THIS WORK LAST TIME?
Now you may be asking, "What happened last time?"

Last time there was no Bill or Act of the Scottish Parliament. That process was avoided by the "Edinburgh Agreement", which was initiated by Westminster.

This Agreement ensured that Westminster would pass the relevant powers to the Scottish Parliament in order to allow it to go ahead with the referendum.

This time there will not be any initiation from the Westminster end.

That is why Ms Sturgeon is trying to initiate proceedings from the Holyrood end, and masquerade as if she has the power to initiate such a thing.

So where does this leave us?

In short: Ms Sturgeon does not have the power to call a referendum. A Referendum Bill presented to the Scottish Parliament would be in violation of the Scotland Act 1998 and would be illegal. The Supreme Court has the power to rule such a Bill, or Act (if it were somehow passed) as illegal. The British Parliament has the power to forbid a second referendum and should do so.

We need to hear our pro-UK politicians saying these things.

If they do not say these things, then there is a danger that the SNP will, by default, create a sense of momentum which will, in effect, render the reality of the law redundant.

References:
(1) Daniel Sanderson, "Nicola Sturgeon edges closer to referendum with blueprint for independence", The Herald, 7-9-16, p.1.

 

(2) Scotland Act 1998: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/contents

[jambo lodge]

Who voted for a hard Brexit?

 

You keep quoting" hard brexit " parrot fashion as if you are quoting the SNP party line.......you forgot Westminster Tories.

 

Biggest issue for Scotland with a fall out on independence could be a very hard exit from Scotland's biggest trading partner. 

[Don Dan]

Regarding another referendum now that May has kicked it quite along way down the road. The SNP could well have been emptied from Holyrood and it may never see the light of day again.

[Don Dan]

This is from The Herald last September

 

The Herald (7-9-16) commented that:

This Bill would then be presented to the Scottish Parliament and debated. If the Parliament voted to pass it, then it could become an official "Act" of the Scottish Parliament. Calling a referendum would then be an official "thing" which the Parliament is going to do.The publication of a draft Referendum Bill is an essential step in the legislative process before it can be voted upon in the Holyrood chamber. A consultation on the bill will be launched by June 2017 at the latest. (1)

However, there are at least 4 legal problems for Ms Sturgeon here.

1. HOLYROOD HAS NO LEGAL COMPETENCY TO HOLD A REFERENDUM ON THE UNION

The legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament derives from the Scotland Act 1998. (2)

It states under Section 29, Paras 1 and 2

As per Schedule 5, Para 1 "the Union" of Scotland and England is a reserved matter.(1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament.

(2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply-

 it relates to reserved matters

This means that a Bill "relating to" the reserved matter of the Union is not within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

2. THE PRESIDING OFFICER MUST FORBID THE PRESENTATION OF SUCH A BILL

The Presiding Officer has a duty to ensure that all Bills which are presented to the Scottish Parliament are within the legislative competence of the Parliament.

He has this duty under Section 31, Para 2 of the Scotland Act 1998, which states:

Since a Bill requiring the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum on the Union is not a competency of the Scottish Parliament, then the Presiding Officer is obliged to state that it is not a competency of the Parliament, and that it cannot go forward to Parliament.31 Scrutiny of Bills before introduction.

(2) The Presiding Officer shall, on or before the introduction of a Bill in the Parliament, decide whether or not in his view the provisions of the Bill would be within the legislative competence of the Parliament and state his decision.

The SNP believes, however, that Holyrood does have the right to pass such a Bill.

In its report, The Herald added that "Any legally binding second independence referendum would require the consent of Westminster but SNP sources insisted that the draft bill would be legally competent."

Of course, "SNP sources" can be expected to say this.

3. AN ILLEGAL BILL CANNOT RECEIVE ROYAL ASSENT

If it somehow goes forward and is voted upon, then it would require Royal Assent to become a legal Act. At this stage, the Supreme Court would become involved, as per Section 32, Para 3(a) of the Scotland Act 1998 which states:

Providing the Supreme Court considers that it is within the authority of the Scottish Parliament to pass such a Bill and that it is legal for the Queen to grant her Royal Assent (and all of that seems very unlikely) then it still means that...32 Submission of Bills for Royal Assent.

(3) The Presiding Officer shall not submit a Bill in its unamended form for Royal Assent if-

(a) the [supreme Court has] decided that the Bill or any provision of it would not be within the legislative competence of the Parliament

4. THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, ACTING ON BEHALF OF ALL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM, HAS THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE

If all the above barriers were somehow overcome, then it is still ultimately down to the British Government, and the British Parliament, representing all the British people, to decide whether it wants to put the United Kingdom through this process again.

It is up to our collective British Parliament, representing everyone in the United Kingdom, to decide whether or not it is prepared to risk, once again, the territorial integrity of the British State and Nation.

This is a crucial point!

Everyone in the UK is invested in a referendum which could potentially break up the entire UK! A referendum is not "just a matter for Scotland". It is a crucial matter for everyone in the UK. That is why the British Parliament, representing everyone in the UK, has to have the final say.

If there were even the slightest suggestion (which there most certainly is) that the referendum could be lost and the UK destroyed, then the referendum must not be allowed to go ahead.

Breaking up Britain is not for Scotland alone to decide. It's a matter for everyone wherever they live who believes in Britain and who values being British. The ultimate decision on a referendum rests with the Collective Constitutional Authority which represents everyone in Britain ? the British Parliament.

Scottish Nationalists don't believe the authority lies with the British Parliament because they don't accept that Britain is a Nation with a Collective Constitutional Centre. However, if we accept that Britain is a Nation then we understand that the British Parliament has the ultimate authority, the perfect right and the absolute duty to maintain it as one.

HOW DID THIS WORK LAST TIME?

Now you may be asking, "What happened last time?"

Last time there was no Bill or Act of the Scottish Parliament. That process was avoided by the "Edinburgh Agreement", which was initiated by Westminster.

This Agreement ensured that Westminster would pass the relevant powers to the Scottish Parliament in order to allow it to go ahead with the referendum.

This time there will not be any initiation from the Westminster end.

That is why Ms Sturgeon is trying to initiate proceedings from the Holyrood end, and masquerade as if she has the power to initiate such a thing.

So where does this leave us?

In short: Ms Sturgeon does not have the power to call a referendum. A Referendum Bill presented to the Scottish Parliament would be in violation of the Scotland Act 1998 and would be illegal. The Supreme Court has the power to rule such a Bill, or Act (if it were somehow passed) as illegal. The British Parliament has the power to forbid a second referendum and should do so.

We need to hear our pro-UK politicians saying these things.

If they do not say these things, then there is a danger that the SNP will, by default, create a sense of momentum which will, in effect, render the reality of the law redundant.

References:(1) Daniel Sanderson, "Nicola Sturgeon edges closer to referendum with blueprint for independence", The Herald, 7-9-16, p.1.

 

(2) Scotland Act 1998: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/contents

Thanks for posting that. Very informative.

[The Don]

Regarding another referendum now that May has kicked it quite along way down the road. The SNP could well have been emptied from Holyrood and it may never see the light of day again.

In theory yes. But As it stands at present the SNP look to have a stronghold on Holyrood for a long time. So much for progressive governments or one party politics lines trotted out by the SNP regarding the Tories.

 

Basically Scottish Labour or other parties have maybe 2 years to get themselves in order to be able to challenge the SNP. Doable? I'm not sure.

 

 

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[luckydug]

Regarding another referendum now that May has kicked it quite along way down the road. The SNP could well have been emptied from Holyrood and it may never see the light of day again.

 

 

Who is going to empty them from Holyrood ?

The Tories ? Scottish Labour ?

Don't be silly.

I know Ruth Davidson was massaging the Scottish Tories ego with claiming she could one day be FM but she had been drinking all day.

Mind you I suppose the Labour party could be treacherous enough to try and form a coalition with the Tories as they have done so at local government level.

[Australis]

Regarding another referendum now that May has kicked it quite along way down the road. The SNP could well have been emptied from Holyrood and it may never see the light of day again.

 

Yep, what a wonderful day today well done Theresa May.

Separatist in my work been bouncing off the walls since the dwarf thought she was getting another referendum on Monday.

Lassies all round her today because she is greeting her eyes out.

 

She still has not told us where the Separatist money trees are hidden.

All out to the pub tonight to celebrate the dwarf school bully being sorted out. #fandabbydosey

[Don Dan]

Who is going to empty them from Holyrood ?

The Tories ? Scottish Labour ?

Don't be silly.

I know Ruth Davidson was massaging the Scottish Tories ego with claiming she could one day be FM but she had been drinking all day.

Mind you I suppose the Labour party could be treacherous enough to try and form a coalition with the Tories as they have done so at local government level.

They say a week is a long time in politics. As my mother used to say never say never.

[Space Mackerel]

I think the PM has made a mistake not facing up to the independence question.

Even as a Yes voter I think the No side would win at the moment. Not enough has changed since the last time.

I also think Nicola Sturgeon has bluffed the PM because the UK is in for a rough time in the coming months and years.

The UK could be in turmoil by the time the PM finally has to face up to a Scottish referendum and she will have to face up to it eventually. There is also the possibility of having a newly elected Tory government in office which would not be popular in Scotland and could boost the Yes vote.

Nicola Sturgeon was bluffing by calling for a referendum so quickly the PM has fell feet first into the trap.

Can't argue with any of that, plus Maggie May is facing calls in NI and Wales too for referendums. If she doesn't deliver a hard Brexit then the Torys will lose a helluva lot of votes to UKIP down South.

 

She is on to a hiding from nothing.

[HaymarketJambo]

When will people realise that in the U.K. We vote for the PARTY and not the INDIVIDUAL, this is not the U.S.A.

 

Ok then, Scotland has only ONE Conservative MP - SNP have 54 MP's at Westminster.    

[Space Mackerel]

Let the games begin [emoji41]

 

[luckydug]

Yep, what a wonderful day today well done Theresa May.

Separatist in my work been bouncing off the walls since the dwarf thought she was getting another referendum on Monday.

Lassies all round her today because she is greeting her eyes out.

 

She still has not told us where the Separatist money trees are hidden.

All out to the pub tonight to celebrate the dwarf school bully being sorted out. #fandabbydosey

 

 

It's funny how we all see events differently.

I now think independence is now more likely.

Shall I come along and comfort your colleague . That's if she exists of course.

[Jambof3tornado]

Exactly the kind of ludicrous stupid comment I'd expect from a raging Nat. You Sir are an absolute balloon. I would rather my country was run by the "skinny dying bitch" and her party than the SNP every single day of the week.

 

As for those wanting SNP to call a referendum without permission An illegal referendum that folk like me would refuse to vote in... a landslide for yes as a result. All sounds OK if they are looking for all out civil war.....

Excellent post.

[AlphonseCapone]

Yep, what a wonderful day today well done Theresa May.

Separatist in my work been bouncing off the walls since the dwarf thought she was getting another referendum on Monday.

Lassies all round her today because she is greeting her eyes out.

 

She still has not told us where the Separatist money trees are hidden.

All out to the pub tonight to celebrate the dwarf school bully being sorted out. #fandabbydosey

Have they aye...

[The Don]

Let the games begin [emoji41]

 

They haven't been told they can't have one

 

 

Seriously are you and the rest of the knuckle draggers really that thick or is it just a ploy to stoke the anti English bigotry band wagon ?

 

But your not bothered tho eh ?

 

 

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[AlphonseCapone]

Deeside mate, I think you are right. Scotland would become like NI if yes won. Unionists are just so angry. We seen what they were like after winning the last time. Can only imagine what untold damage they'd do if they lost.

 

I'll be voting no to try and keep the angry, violent unionists calm.

[The Don]

Deeside mate, I think you are right. Scotland would become like NI if yes won. Unionists are just so angry. We seen what they were like after winning the last time. Can only imagine what untold damage they'd do if they lost.

 

I'll be voting no to try and keep the angry, violent unionists calm.

The very same can be said of the bigots in the Yes camp, this thread is testament to a couple of the halfwits

 

 

I hope your joking in the last sentence ? Absolutely ridiculous reason to vote one way or the other. I'll vote at the time on what I think is the best option for me and my family. Whether that's Yes or no the facts will determine. It certainly won't be because I'm worried some twat will kick off

 

 

 

 

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[AlphonseCapone]

The very same can be said of the bigots in the Yes camp, this thread is testament to a couple of the halfwits

 

 

 

 

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I think they at least seem harmless. It's how vitriol some unionists seem to be. If I was them I'd be confident after my last victory, patronising even but angry? Just don't get it.

[The Don]

I think they at least seem harmless. It's how vitriol some unionists seem to be. If I was them I'd be confident after my last victory, patronising even but angry? Just don't get it.

There was threats of violence and intimidation on both sides. A friend of mines next door neighbour had his car window smashed and Yes scratched into the paintwork all for displaying a No sign in the back. Same happened to yes voters as well. Absolutely disgusting from both sides. It makes no difference point scoring saying ah but Yes only made 10 threats the No's made 20 1 threat from either side is more than enough.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

They haven't been told they can't have one

 

 

Seriously are you and the rest of the knuckle draggers really that thick or is it just a ploy to stoke the anti English bigotry band wagon ?

 

But your not bothered tho eh ?

 

 

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Like I and others have said, Maggie May has fell right into Nicolas trap.

 

Hook, line, sinker and copy of Angling Weekly.

[The Don]

Like I and others have said, Maggie May has fell right into Nicolas trap.

 

Hook, line, sinker and copy of Angling Weekly.

 

So it was all a ploy to undermine the democratic decision by 55% of the country and push through another referendum at all costs. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

What was it people were saying about Nazis and fascists?

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

So it was all a ploy to undermine the democratic decision by 55% of the country and push through another referendum at all costs. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

What was it people were saying about Nazis and fascists?

 

 

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Politics is one big game, Maggie May just isn't very good at it.

[The Don]

Politics is one big game, Maggie May just isn't very good at it.

She was good enough today she's got you lot all foaming at the mouth, salmond was about to burst a blood vessel live on TV earlier. Emergency meeting being called at SNP HQ. Extra security being put on North Bridge and the crags. You haven't stopped blethering shite since Mrs May slapped jimmy Krankie down even further.

 

 

But you're not bothered eh

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

She was good enough today she's got you lot all foaming at the mouth, salmond was about to burst a blood vessel live on TV earlier. Emergency meeting being called at SNP HQ. Extra security being put on North Bridge and the crags. You haven't stopped blethering shite since Mrs May slapped jimmy Krankie down even further.

 

 

But you're not bothered eh

 

 

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Don't be surprised if the Section 30 order request is sent on the day Article 50 is triggered.

[1874robbo]

She was good enough today she's got you lot all foaming at the mouth, salmond was about to burst a blood vessel live on TV earlier. Emergency meeting being called at SNP HQ. Extra security being put on North Bridge and the crags. You haven't stopped blethering shite since Mrs May slapped jimmy Krankie down even further.

 

 

But you're not bothered eh

 

 

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Salmond obviously isn't part of this master plan that sturgeon has allegedly set in motion according to some of our posters.

[The Don]

Salmond obviously isn't part of this master plan that sturgeon has allegedly set in motion according to some of our posters.

Clearly not. Once in a generation you know.

 

 

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[AlphonseCapone]

There was threats of violence and intimidation on both sides. A friend of mines next door neighbour had his car window smashed and Yes scratched into the paintwork all for displaying a No sign in the back. Same happened to yes voters as well. Absolutely disgusting from both sides. It makes no difference point scoring saying ah but Yes only made 10 threats the No's made 20 1 threat from either side is more than enough.

 

 

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Saddened to hear that.

 

I agree.

[1874robbo]

Clearly not. Once in a generation you know.

 

 

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[The Don]

Don't be surprised if the Section 30 order request is sent on the day Article 50 is triggered.

Probably will be in fact I expect it to be such is the petty cringeworthy SNP tactics.

 

That'll just be another embarrassment for them like today.

 

That is of course if the bill meets legal requirements and is passed in Holyrood

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Probably will be in fact I expect it to be such is the petty cringeworthy SNP tactics.

 

That'll just be another embarrassment for them like today.

 

That is of course if the bill meets legal requirements and is passed in Holyrood

 

 

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Cringeworthy?

 

Politically astute is the description you should be using.

[Doogz]

Politics is one big game, Maggie May just isn't very good at it.

 

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

[The Don]

Saddened to hear that.

 

I agree.

Thing is we can all debate and have differences and disagree on political issues. It's the knuckle draggers that really are the concern, the ones happy to wish death on people that can't debate reasonably unless your in agreement with them, the Ines that have no respect for anyone else's opinion. That's what will turn Scotland into another NI and there's plenty of these clowns on both sides.

 

 

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[The Don]

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

 

Absolutely

 

Great post

 

 

 

 

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[JKBMod 10]

Several posts have been removed.

 

This looks like a good time to remind you all to keep it sensible and civil, please. No name calling and no trolling either, and steer clear of abusive and excessively aggressive language.

 

These threads can become a real headache for the mods so we won't hesitate to thread ban and/or issue warning points. Please bear that in mind.

 

Let's try to make the discussion a good one. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

[Dawnrazor]

A friend of my sister in law was asked to leave a wedding reception in Gourock in case her Liverpool accent caused trouble, shamefull actions from both sides last time round.

[1874robbo]

Cringeworthy?

 

Politically astute is the description you should be using.

 

 

Politically astute?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/729607/Nicola-Sturgeon-loses-10BILLION-trade-deal-with-China-dubbed-Scottish-shambles/amp

[Don Dan]

Don't be surprised if the Section 30 order request is sent on the day Article 50 is triggered.

Waste of a stamp.

[AlphonseCapone]

A friend of my sister in law was asked to leave a wedding reception in Gourock in case her Liverpool accent caused trouble, shamefull actions from both sides last time round.

It is a horrible accent tbf...

 

Only joking man, I actually love the scouse accent.

[Adam Murray]

This just gets more depressing.

When I read the tone of some of these posts it seems some of the pro-independence posters would happily have Brexit be a complete disaster so long as it pushes Scotland towards independence, even if that risks making the transition to independence more painful for the country in the long run.

I have no fundamental problem with independence but I'm afraid this whole attitude of independence at any cost is lost on me - I'd rather see Scotland prospering regardless of whether we're in or out of the UK (or in or out of the EU for that matter).

Politics may well be a game to you - but I'm concerned about the impact these "games" will have on me, my family, friends and the country as a whole.

 

Far too reasonable and sensible for some on here, sadly.

[Victorian]

SNP have gone baws-in here. Bluffs being called all over. Shit about to hit the fan big time. The next few weeks will be fairly crazy.