The 2015 General Election Megathread

[JamboX2]

Must skills gaps be filled through immigration? Is that the only solution we can come up with? We should be training people who are here. My own personal experience is the skills shortage chat is absolute drivel, especially in the skilled trades category. It's a convenient excuse to recruit foreign workers who just happen to accept a fiver an hour less.

You're right we should be. The UK and Scotland has long focused on university education rather than vocational education as a means to social progress. I'd like to see the school day lengthened and more vocational subjects offered at an early age to get people into work which suits their skills and fills the gap in work domestically.

 

But that doesn't escape from the fact that we still need more immigration not less to help fox our demographic issue of the elderly.

 

I'm pro-EU, pro-free movement of people and all for the UK and Scotland change focus, admitting university isn't for everyone and funding colleges and schools effectively to provide that extra and other vocational option.

[JamboX2]

To the best of my knowledge Campbell Gunn has not smeared anybody. Unless you count calling somebody a "labour politician" a smear. Unless you know better.

 

 

 

How about the parent of the disabled child, Lally (?), during the referendum. Said she was a Labour politicians daughter when she wasn't and that she was a Labour stooge and shouldn't be listened to. That was Gunn. That was a smear.

 

 

Perhaps you could tell me what his first error was.

That he had definitive, binding and fool proof legal advice on Scotland's future membership of the EU. That automatic membership would follow.

 

I remember the Andrew Marr interview and the statement to Parliament. He said it. The position was always reapply, he said it would be automatic.

[jambos are go!]

Do you mean veracity? I'm not aware of Sturgeon's voracity in any particular walk of life.

 

Your claim that Sturgeon did not challenge the assertion that she had said she would prefer Cameron to remain as Prime Minister is, I'm sorry to say, just another lie. It's sad that you're having to make things up, and more than a little desperate. Every report I've read or seen about this tawdry affair makes it clear that she disputed it from the outset. Read the reports in today's Scotsman and Guardian and you will see that they both confirm this.

 

The Guardian report also confirms - and I'm repeating this for the umpteenth time now - that the civil servant has admitted that the contents of a note written by an envoy about a conversation between Sturgeon and the ambassador which was then passed to him may have got lost in translation. The ambassador has confirmed that the memo is inaccurate.

 

Carry on, though.

Both spellings of veracity/voracity are in common usage as outlined below:-

 

Veracity is far more common than the rare voracity, so the latter is sometimes used in place of the former. But voracious is far more common than veracious, so the confusion of the adjectives tends to go in the other direction.

 

I was commenting on a report in last nights Reporting Scotland of which I have a full recording. At the end of the segment the Reporter confirms that the UK Cabinet Secretary says that the highly regarded Civil Servant sticks by their account. That is a fact not a lie. Where is your evidence that she challenged the minutes from the outset. If she had  they would have been amended IMO and experience. The French Ambassador BTW should also have seen the minutes. As far as my knowledge goes they only challenged them  when they became public.

Edited May 23, 2015 by jambos are go!

[Coco]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9628949/Alex-Salmond-denies-barefaced-lies-over-Scotland-euro-membership.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10367759/Alex-Salmond-spent-20000-keeping-secret-non-existent-EU-legal-advice.html

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/alex-salmond-in-the-clear-but-critics-attack-sham-inquiry-over-eu-legal-advice-1-2729577

 

Draw your own conclusions!

[Arnold Rothstein]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9628949/Alex-Salmond-denies-barefaced-lies-over-Scotland-euro-membership.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10367759/Alex-Salmond-spent-20000-keeping-secret-non-existent-EU-legal-advice.html

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/alex-salmond-in-the-clear-but-critics-attack-sham-inquiry-over-eu-legal-advice-1-2729577

 

Draw your own conclusions!

 

I conclude that the man is a clown.

[JamboX2]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9628949/Alex-Salmond-denies-barefaced-lies-over-Scotland-euro-membership.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10367759/Alex-Salmond-spent-20000-keeping-secret-non-existent-EU-legal-advice.html

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/alex-salmond-in-the-clear-but-critics-attack-sham-inquiry-over-eu-legal-advice-1-2729577

 

Draw your own conclusions!

I conclude that he is the man who lost the Yes campaign the referendum.

[leginten]

Both spellings of veracity/voracity are in common usage as outlined below:-

 

Veracity is far more common than the rare voracity, so the latter is sometimes used in place of the former. But voracious is far more common than veracious, so the confusion of the adjectives tends to go in the other direction.

 

I was commenting on a report in last nights Reporting Scotland of which I have a full recording. At the end of the segment the Reporter confirms that the UK Cabinet Secretary says that the highly regarded Civil Servant sticks by their account. That is a fact not a lie. Where is your evidence that she challenged the minutes from the outset. If she had they would have been amended IMO and experience. The French Ambassador BTW should also have seen the minutes. As far as my knowledge goes they only challenged them when they became public.

The internet article you looked up to try to spare your blushes does not suggest that voracity can be used as a synonym for veracity, which of course it is not. They are entirely different concepts and mean completely different things, as you will by now know. The article merely pointed out that those who don't know any better confuse one with the other. If you were talking about truth, you certainly didn't want to use "voracity".

 

The rest of your post is the usual rag-bag of supposition, conjecture and inaccuracy in an attempt to re-ignite a debate which has long since been put to bed by the statements of the ambassador and Sturgeon as well as the "lost in translation" admission by the civil servant concerned. Desperate stuff.

Edited May 23, 2015 by leginten

[jambos are go!]

The internet article you looked up to try to spare your blushes does not suggest that voracity can be used as a synonym for veracity, which of course it is not. They are entirely different concepts and mean completely different things, as you will by now know. The article merely pointed out that those who don't know any better confuse one with the other. If you were talking about truth, you certainly didn't want to use "voracity".

 

The rest of your post is the usual rag-bag of supposition, conjecture and inaccuracy in an attempt to re-ignite a debate which has long since been put to bed by the statements of the ambassador and Sturgeon as well as the "lost in translation" admission by the civil servant concerned. Desperate stuff.

 

 

Please answer the question I put to you in bold. The truth is you want this question put to bed. Your suggestion that my accurate account of what was said on Reporting is  a@ rag bag of supposition, conjecture and inaccuracy' is empty rhetoric IMO. Let others read our posts  and make their mind up. I'm happy with that- are you?

[leginten]

Please answer the question I put to you in bold. The truth is you want this question put to bed. Your suggestion that my accurate account of what was said on Reporting is  a@ rag bag of supposition, conjecture and inaccuracy' is empty rhetoric IMO. Let others read our posts  and make their mind up. I'm happy with that- are you?

Absolutely. There are two people in this saga who have stuck to their story - the ambassador and Sturgeon. And two who have changed their stories - Carmichael and your precious civil servant. Interesting that you are obsessed with believing the latter.

 

Hope that's "voracious" enough for you.

[JAYEL]

Absolutely. There are two people in this saga who have stuck to their story - the ambassador and Sturgeon. And two who have changed their stories - Carmichael and your precious civil servant. Interesting that you are obsessed with believing the latter.

 

Hope that's "voracious" enough for you.

 

Indeed

 

No more to be said.

[IMac]

Absolutely. There are two people in this saga who have stuck to their story - the ambassador and Sturgeon. And two who have changed their stories - Carmichael and your precious civil servant. Interesting that you are obsessed with believing the latter.

 

Hope that's "voracious" enough for you.

the leader is good. The leader is great. Surrender your will, as of this date.

[leginten]

the leader is good. The leader is great. Surrender your will, as of this date.

Gorgiewave-standard juvenility. Have you anything to say, or is that it?

[maroonlegions]

 

 

 

 These lyrics from Muses song "Uprising"  are so relevant to this new  Tory government and the coalition before them.

 

 

"Uprising"
 

Paranoia is in bloom,
The PR transmissions will resume
They'll try to push drugs that keep us all dumbed down
And hope that we will never see the truth around
(so come on)

Another promise, another seed
Another packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed
And all the green belts wrapped around our minds
And endless red tape to keep the truth confined
(so come on)

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
(so come on)

Interchanging mind control
Come, let the revolution take its toll
If you could flick the switch and open your third eye
You'd see that we should never be afraid to die
(so come on)

Rise up and take the power back
It's time the fat cats had a heart attack
You know that their time's coming to an end
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend
(so come on)

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
(so come on)

Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
(so come on)

Hey, hey, hey, hey.

[maroonlegions]

So what next for the poor and less well off, what next for those genuine benefit claimants as another ?i billion cuts hits them and what next for the old who  cannot decide to either heat their homes in winter or pay their rent, what next for the growing disillusioned  generation of youth that cannot afford to pay for higher education to earn the right to better paid jobs, what next will be  the spin doctor responses from those that either dont care or are not effected by any of the above "what next". ???

 

Strive to survive causing the LEAST possible suffering to others.

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2015 by maroonlegions

[IMac]

Gorgiewave-standard juvenility. Have you anything to say, or is that it?

I say plenty. No one one hear will listen. Snp amd tory supporters follow blindly. Labour are a shambles Nd their supporters are all over the place.

 

it appears to me that carmicheal leaked a doc that as farsas he knew at the time was correct. Not sure why we have secret government documents that have no relation to national security. What is said by elected officials on official duty should be a matter of public record.

 

it wouldn't surprise me if Sturgeon said it.i don't actually care and had no bearing on the election.

 

Glad carmicheal had no chance of being party leader before this.

[TheMaganator]

SCANDAL!

 

Salmond was giving away Ryder Cup tickets to wealthy donors - despite claiming they'd go to 'inspirational Scots'

 

This old boys, you scratch my back type of thing is disgusting - is it not? It's what the Tories do.

Noses in the trough - just helping his mates etc.

 

This is the stuff of Westminster parties - not the guid 'onest SNP

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/579552/Alex-Salmond-Ryder-Cup-tickets-bankers-millionaires-good-causes

[jambos are go!]

The actual leak enquiry report. Make your own mind up.

 

 

 

This statement follows the completion of an inquiry into a leaked Scotland Office memorandum.

Following the leak of a Scotland Office memorandum that formed the basis of a story in the Daily Telegraph on 3 April, the Cabinet Secretary instigated a Cabinet Office-led leak inquiry to establish how this memo came to be written and how it got into the public domain. The inquiry process is now complete.

The memo

The investigation team interviewed the civil servant in the Scotland Office who produced the memo. He confirmed under questioning that he believed that the memo was an accurate record of the conversation that took place between him and the French Consul General, and highlighted that the memo had stated that part of the conversation between the French Ambassador and the First Minister might well have been ?lost in translation?.

Senior officials who have worked with him say that he is reliable and has no history of inaccurate reporting, impropriety or security lapses. The Cabinet Secretary has concluded that there is no reason to doubt that he recorded accurately what he thought he had heard. There is no evidence of any political motivation or ?dirty tricks?.

The leak

In investigating the source of the leak, the investigation team searched all relevant official phone records, emails and print logs. Those who had access to the memo were asked to complete a questionnaire on what they did with the memo when they received it. They were then interviewed.

The investigation established the following facts:

• an official mobile phone was used to make telephone calls to one of the authors of the Daily Telegraph story. This phone was held by Euan Roddin, previously Special Adviser to the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Alistair Carmichael
• Mr Roddin confirmed that he provided a copy of the Scotland Office memo to a Daily Telegraph journalist on 1 April 2015, and discussed the memo with the journalist on a number of occasions. He told the investigation team that he acted in what he saw as the public interest and that in his view the public needed to be aware of the position attributed to the First Minister
• Alistair Carmichael confirmed that he had been asked by Mr Roddin for his view of the possibility of sharing the memo with the press. Mr Carmichael agreed that this should occur. He recognises that, as a Secretary of State, he was responsible for his own conduct and that of his Special Adviser. He could and should have stopped the sharing of the memo and accordingly accepts responsibility for what occurred
• no-one else had any involvement in the leaking of the memo

The investigation team has therefore concluded that Mr Roddin, with the assent of Mr Carmichael in the circumstances described above, was the direct source of the Daily Telegraph story. The Cabinet Secretary has accepted their findings in full. Mr Carmichael and Mr Roddin have also accepted the conclusions.

Neither Mr Carmichael nor Mr Roddin will take their severance pay.

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Edited May 24, 2015 by jambos are go!

[JAYEL]

 

The actual leak enquiry report. Make your own mind up.

 

 

 

This statement follows the completion of an inquiry into a leaked Scotland Office memorandum.

Following the leak of a Scotland Office memorandum that formed the basis of a story in the Daily Telegraph on 3 April, the Cabinet Secretary instigated a Cabinet Office-led leak inquiry to establish how this memo came to be written and how it got into the public domain. The inquiry process is now complete.

The memo

The investigation team interviewed the civil servant in the Scotland Office who produced the memo. He confirmed under questioning that he believed that the memo was an accurate record of the conversation that took place between him and the French Consul General, and highlighted that the memo had stated that part of the conversation between the French Ambassador and the First Minister might well have been ?lost in translation?.

Senior officials who have worked with him say that he is reliable and has no history of inaccurate reporting, impropriety or security lapses. The Cabinet Secretary has concluded that there is no reason to doubt that he recorded accurately what he thought he had heard. There is no evidence of any political motivation or ?dirty tricks?.

The leak

In investigating the source of the leak, the investigation team searched all relevant official phone records, emails and print logs. Those who had access to the memo were asked to complete a questionnaire on what they did with the memo when they received it. They were then interviewed.

The investigation established the following facts:

• an official mobile phone was used to make telephone calls to one of the authors of the Daily Telegraph story. This phone was held by Euan Roddin, previously Special Adviser to the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Alistair Carmichael
• Mr Roddin confirmed that he provided a copy of the Scotland Office memo to a Daily Telegraph journalist on 1 April 2015, and discussed the memo with the journalist on a number of occasions. He told the investigation team that he acted in what he saw as the public interest and that in his view the public needed to be aware of the position attributed to the First Minister
• Alistair Carmichael confirmed that he had been asked by Mr Roddin for his view of the possibility of sharing the memo with the press. Mr Carmichael agreed that this should occur. He recognises that, as a Secretary of State, he was responsible for his own conduct and that of his Special Adviser. He could and should have stopped the sharing of the memo and accordingly accepts responsibility for what occurred
• no-one else had any involvement in the leaking of the memo

The investigation team has therefore concluded that Mr Roddin, with the assent of Mr Carmichael in the circumstances described above, was the direct source of the Daily Telegraph story. The Cabinet Secretary has accepted their findings in full. Mr Carmichael and Mr Roddin have also accepted the conclusions.

Neither Mr Carmichael nor Mr Roddin will take their severance pay.

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Make your own mind up

[JamboX2]

<p>

 

The actual leak enquiry report. Make your own mind up.

 

 

 

This statement follows the completion of an inquiry into a leaked Scotland Office memorandum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Following the leak of a Scotland Office memorandum that formed the basis of a story in the Daily Telegraph on 3 April, the Cabinet Secretary instigated a Cabinet Office-led leak inquiry to establish how this memo came to be written and how it got into the public domain. The inquiry process is now complete.The memo

The investigation team interviewed the civil servant in the Scotland Office who produced the memo. He confirmed under questioning that he believed that the memo was an accurate record of the conversation that took place between him and the French Consul General, and highlighted that the memo had stated that part of the conversation between the French Ambassador and the First Minister might well have been ?lost in translation?.

Senior officials who have worked with him say that he is reliable and has no history of inaccurate reporting, impropriety or security lapses. The Cabinet Secretary has concluded that there is no reason to doubt that he recorded accurately what he thought he had heard. There is no evidence of any political motivation or ?dirty tricks?.The leak

In investigating the source of the leak, the investigation team searched all relevant official phone records, emails and print logs. Those who had access to the memo were asked to complete a questionnaire on what they did with the memo when they received it. They were then interviewed.

The investigation established the following facts:

• an official mobile phone was used to make telephone calls to one of the authors of the Daily Telegraph story. This phone was held by Euan Roddin, previously Special Adviser to the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Alistair Carmichael
• Mr Roddin confirmed that he provided a copy of the Scotland Office memo to a Daily Telegraph journalist on 1 April 2015, and discussed the memo with the journalist on a number of occasions. He told the investigation team that he acted in what he saw as the public interest and that in his view the public needed to be aware of the position attributed to the First Minister
• Alistair Carmichael confirmed that he had been asked by Mr Roddin for his view of the possibility of sharing the memo with the press. Mr Carmichael agreed that this should occur. He recognises that, as a Secretary of State, he was responsible for his own conduct and that of his Special Adviser. He could and should have stopped the sharing of the memo and accordingly accepts responsibility for what occurred
• no-one else had any involvement in the leaking of the memo

The investigation team has therefore concluded that Mr Roddin, with the assent of Mr Carmichael in the circumstances described above, was the direct source of the Daily Telegraph story. The Cabinet Secretary has accepted their findings in full. Mr Carmichael and Mr Roddin have also accepted the conclusions.

Neither Mr Carmichael nor Mr Roddin will take their severance pay.

 

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So it's what we knew:

 

1. The SPAD finds memo made by civil servant of conversation between FM and Counsel General for France in Scotland. Memo is a loose interpretation of a conversation and isn't all that important.

2. SPAD, as a political adviser, notices this may influence polls and advises this and a plan to leak to a paper of record to add credibility to leak.

3. Secretary of State ponders this. Doesn't fully review memo, why bother "Roddins a gid guy. Never let me or Moore doon"

4. Secretary of State gives the nod after more discussion with Roddin.

5. Story hits, SNP demand retraction, apology and spout off about a dirty tricks campaign in the civil service.

6. LibDem backbencher apologises to first minister. Apology shared in public, SNP call for resignation and a re-run of the election.

7. Civil service inquiry exonerates the civil services, confirms some truth in memo and that those responsible for the leak have been punished.

 

So the next step in this saga is surely...

 

8. SNP apology over their unfounded claims about UK civil service followed by accepting the outcome and moving on?

 

More likely...

 

9. Don't officially accept report and calls for evil, twisted, bitter and biased Carmichael to resign as the popular will of the Shetlanders and Orcadians has been abused and so a revote should be held...

Edited May 24, 2015 by JamboX2

[JAYEL]

So it's what we knew:

 

1. The SPAD finds memo made by civil servant of conversation between FM and Counsel General for France in Scotland. Memo is a loose interpretation of a conversation and isn't all that important.

2. SPAD, as a political adviser, notices this may influence polls and advises this and a plan to leak to a paper of record to add credibility to leak.

3. Secretary of State ponders this. Doesn't fully review memo, why bother "Roddins a gid guy. Never let me or Moore doon"

4. Secretary of State gives the nod after more discussion with Roddin.

5. Story hits, SNP demand retraction, apology and spout off about a dirty tricks campaign in the civil service.

6. LibDem backbencher apologises to first minister. Apology shared in public, SNP call for resignation and a re-run of the election.

7. Civil service inquiry exonerates the civil services, confirms some truth in memo and that those responsible for the leak have been punished.

 

So the next step in this saga is surely...

 

8. SNP apology over their unfounded claims about UK civil service followed by accepting the outcome and moving on?

 

More likely...

 

9. Don't officially accept report and calls for evil, twisted, bitter and biased Carmichael to resign as the popular will of the Shetlanders and Orcadians has been abused and so a revote should be held...

More nonsense..

 

 

We will wait and see what the people of Orkney and Shetland have to say

[JamboX2]

More nonsense..

 

 

We will wait and see what the people of Orkney and Shetland have to say

How is it nonsense? It's what the report says happened.

 

The SNP can accept that the people of Orkney and Shetland elected Carmichael as their representative at Westminster in the middle of this storm brewing - all electors will have been aware of this leak at the time they crossed ballots - or they make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

The people don't have a say now. They elected him, the election is over. Sovereign will of people only lasts during the election, specifically polling day between 7am and 10pm. Once that door is locked the people are no longer sovereign and are represented by elected representatives of the people from whom their decision making power derives. It's representative democracy in a nutshell.

 

The people of the Orkneys and Shetlands will have their say. They will have it on Tavish Scott in Shetland and Liam McArthur in Orkney as their MSPs next May and on their local authority in 2017. They will then have their say on Carmichael in 2020.

[JAYEL]

How is it nonsense? It's what the report says happened.

 

The SNP can accept that the people of Orkney and Shetland elected Carmichael as their representative at Westminster in the middle of this storm brewing - all electors will have been aware of this leak at the time they crossed ballots - or they make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

The people don't have a say now. They elected him, the election is over. Sovereign will of people only lasts during the election, specifically polling day between 7am and 10pm. Once that door is locked the people are no longer sovereign and are represented by elected representatives of the people from whom their decision making power derives. It's representative democracy in a nutshell.

 

The people of the Orkneys and Shetlands will have their say. They will have it on Tavish Scott in Shetland and Liam McArthur in Orkney as their MSPs next May and on their local authority in 2017. They will then have their say on Carmichael in 2020.

 

He new what was in the memo, he lied when asked if he knew anything about it.He admitted it and apologised only after he was found out by a very expensive enquiry.

 

And you think that is ok.

Edited May 24, 2015 by JAYEL

[JamboX2]

He new what was in the memo, he lied when asked if he knew anything about it.He admitted it and apologised only after he was found out by a very expensive enquiry.

 

And you think that is ok.

No. I never said it was ok.

 

I just don't think he should stand down on the back of the SNP having the hump.

 

As for the memo, it has been held by the inquiry to be a good report of the conversation between the FM and the French diplomat. That hasn't been questioned or refuted. So Carmichael consented to the release of a memo to the press of a memo which was private containing the views of the SNP leader which hasn't been questioned in terms of content.

 

Carmichael is guilty of having leaked a memo. Which, to me, isn't a resignable offence. Leaks can be good things to happen at times. Here he mucked up a leak. He's done wrong but I don't think he should resign.

[JAYEL]

No. I never said it was ok.

 

I just don't think he should stand down on the back of the SNP having the hump.

 

As for the memo, it has been held by the inquiry to be a good report of the conversation between the FM and the French diplomat. That hasn't been questioned or refuted. So Carmichael consented to the release of a memo to the press of a memo which was private containing the views of the SNP leader which hasn't been questioned in terms of content.

 

Carmichael is guilty of having leaked a memo. Which, to me, isn't a resignable offence. Leaks can be good things to happen at times. Here he mucked up a leak. He's done wrong but I don't think he should resign.

 

Again no mention of the lie or the expensive enquiry that followed.

 

 

Why no addmission and apology from him before the very expensive enquiry

 

 

 

Ah well he just mucked up so thats alright

[Hasselhoff]

Again no mention of the lie or the expensive enquiry that followed.

 

 

Why no addmission and apology from him before the very expensive enquiry

 

 

 

Ah well he just mucked up so thats alright

What is your source that the enquiry cost ?1.4m?

 

Considering the event only happened maybe 6 weeks ago, that's a lot of money for doing a bit of digging into the issue.

 

That's ?14k each for 100 people for a maximum of 6 weeks work. I doubt they needed 100 people, more likely a small team.

[Boab]

What is your source that the enquiry cost ?1.4m?

 

Considering the event only happened maybe 6 weeks ago, that's a lot of money for doing a bit of digging into the issue.

 

That's ?14k each for 100 people for a maximum of 6 weeks work. I doubt they needed 100 people, more likely a small team.

I think the actual amount is irrelevant.

The fact that there had to be one, while that lying hound stood and watched it happen, is telling..no ?

 

Oh, and for the record, they are all at it...it is the nature of things.

[JAYEL]

What is your source that the enquiry cost ?1.4m?

 

Considering the event only happened maybe 6 weeks ago, that's a lot of money for doing a bit of digging into the issue.

 

That's ?14k each for 100 people for a maximum of 6 weeks work. I doubt they needed 100 people, more likely a small team.

 

Any needless enquiry costs money..

 

 

Why did he not admit it when asked.

[Hasselhoff]

SNP said when the Neil Hay Edinburgh South Twitter fiasco came out that they wouldn't withdraw him and that the people would make their judgement, which they did, not electing him.

 

Carmichael was alleged to have been responsible prior to polling day and yet people still voted him in. The people have therefore spoken.

 

He leaked something he thought might have made people vote LibDem instead of SNP and it backfired, just the same as Beaker leaking things about the Tories in the run up to the vote. It was desperate measures from them and it just made them look like backstabbers who couldn't be trusted.

 

SNP will show their true colours soon enough, I hope everyone maintains their moral high ground when that occurs!

[Hasselhoff]

Why did he not admit it when asked.

Shameless whataboutery but you could say the same about Salmond and his EU legal advice.

[JAYEL]

Shameless whataboutery but you could say the same about Salmond and his EU legal advice.

 

 

 

Ok then

[JamboX2]

Again no mention of the lie or the expensive enquiry that followed.

 

 

Why no addmission and apology from him before the very expensive enquiry

 

 

 

Ah well he just mucked up so thats alright

I never said its all right. I never said it was acceptable. I don't think it is.

 

However, I don't see the need for him to resign. Salmond didn't over the EU legal advice and the inquiry which followed that at cost to the taxpayer.

 

Leaks are always followed by inquiries at a cost to the taxpayer.

 

Whilst we're on it, what about the content of the document? That wasn't questioned as inaccurate or amended. It was held to be an accurate report of the conversation.

 

What about the fact that he won his seat with the accusation of him being a liar and having leaked the document?

 

Those are two valid points to consider. If the SNP want to they can hound him out of his seat and have a by-election at great cost to the electorate. But considering he and his adviser have been sanctioned by having their pensions stopped I think he's been punished and we should all move on.

[JamboX2]

SNP said when the Neil Hay Edinburgh South Twitter fiasco came out that they wouldn't withdraw him and that the people would make their judgement, which they did, not electing him.

 

Carmichael was alleged to have been responsible prior to polling day and yet people still voted him in. The people have therefore spoken.

 

He leaked something he thought might have made people vote LibDem instead of SNP and it backfired, just the same as Beaker leaking things about the Tories in the run up to the vote. It was desperate measures from them and it just made them look like backstabbers who couldn't be trusted.

 

 

Totally agree with this.

 

The election has been done. The man won his seat with the accusation on him. The people will have their say on him in a few years time.

 

My worry is that leaks can actually be vital in a democracy and help shed light on things that people should know but are being denied knowledge of. To make such a deal over a political attack on one party is to make leaking seem unthinkable and the effect on whistleblowing on the back of that can be detrimental.

[JAYEL]

I never said its all right. I never said it was acceptable. I don't think it is.

 

However, I don't see the need for him to resign. Salmond didn't over the EU legal advice and the inquiry which followed that at cost to the taxpayer.

 

Leaks are always followed by inquiries at a cost to the taxpayer.

 

Whilst we're on it, what about the content of the document? That wasn't questioned as inaccurate or amended. It was held to be an accurate report of the conversation.

 

What about the fact that he won his seat with the accusation of him being a liar and having leaked the document?

 

Those are two valid points to consider. If the SNP want to they can hound him out of his seat and have a by-election at great cost to the electorate. But considering he and his adviser have been sanctioned by having their pensions stopped I think he's been punished and we should all move on.

 

 

It  was an accurate account of what someone thought was said..

 

 

I am happy to let the people of Orkney and Shetland tdecide his fate.

 

 

I doubt he will last long

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/23/alistair-carmichael-liberal-democrats-byelection-threat-leak-snp-sturgeon?utm_content=buffer0b2d2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Edited May 24, 2015 by JAYEL

[jack D and coke]

I'm in two minds about it tbh. I know the MSM have a new punchbag in Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP but at the same time I feel there's no smoke without fire.

 

At the end of the day id imagine if an SNP minister had the opportunity to do the same to say Jim Murphy for example they would've done it without any shadow of a doubt.

 

Pots and kettles.

Edited May 24, 2015 by jack D and coke

[JamboX2]

It was an accurate account of what someone thought was said..

 

 

I am happy to let the people of Orkney and Shetland tdecide his fate.

 

 

I doubt he will last long

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/23/alistair-carmichael-liberal-democrats-byelection-threat-leak-snp-sturgeon?utm_content=buffer0b2d2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I bet you two things on that article:

 

1. Rennie will have known nothing.

 

2. The SNP will likely play this to its inevitable end of them having an extra MP at Westminster.

 

It's not an acceptable thing he's done. But I don't think he necessarily needs to resign. After all he won the seat with this accusation against him.

 

On the memo, all discussions between elected officials and foreign diplomats are recorded to the fullest they can by civil servants who sit in/listen in on phone calls and face to face meetings. At all levels of the UK this applies. Sturgeon has clearly said she would prefer someone or a party over another.

Edited May 24, 2015 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

I'm in two minds about it tbh. I know the MSM have a new punchbag in Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP but at the same time I feel there's no smoke without fire.

 

At the end of the day id imagine if an SNP minister had the opportunity to do the same to say Jim Murphy for example they would've done it without any shadow of a doubt.

 

Pots and kettles.

Totally agree.

 

However, I don't think the SNP are the punchbag they are made out to be by their supporters. Read any coverage of Scottish Labour recently? Even the Record and the Mirror are putting the boot in. One reason the SNP do so well in Scotland is that they are masters at spin and setting the media narrative. They are no strangers to sucking up to certain papers - see their relationship with the Sun and Murdoch - and to using the media to set their narrative.

 

The right of centre papers - Telegraph and Mail - don't like them. But the Herald, Sun, Scotsman, Guardian and independent are all warming to them.

Edited May 24, 2015 by JamboX2

[JAYEL]

I bet you two things on that article:

 

1. Rennie will have known nothing.

 

2. The SNP will likely play this to its inevitable end of them having an extra MP at Westminster.

 

It's not an acceptable thing he's done. But I don't think he necessarily needs to resign. After all he won the seat with this accusation against him.

 

On the memo, all discussions between elected officials and foreign diplomats are recorded to the fullest they can by civil servants who sit in/listen in on phone calls and face to face meetings. At all levels of the UK this applies. Sturgeon has clearly said she would prefer someone or a party over another.

 

 

That is because they trusted him.

 

Not anymore

 

 

 

I wonder what Mundell knew ?

[JamboX2]

That is because they trusted him.

 

Not anymore

 

 

 

I wonder what Mundell knew ?

More fool them then, knowing what they knew then should've perhaps changed minds. They made their choice of representative unless it's a 10 day suspension they can lump it till 2020.

 

I demand an inquiry into Mundell now? :haha: One unionist down, let's get the rest? Laughable really is. The report didn't bring him up and said it was Roddin and Carmichael. Let's just move on.

Edited May 24, 2015 by JamboX2

[JAYEL]

More fool them then, knowing what they knew then should've perhaps changed minds. They made their choice of representative unless it's a 10 day suspension they can lump it till 2020.

 

I demand an inquiry into Mundell now? :haha: One unionist down, let's get the rest? Laughable really is. The report didn't bring him up and said it was Roddin and Carmichael. Let's just move on.

 

More fool the electorate - really

 

 

They were misled and lied to and again you think that is ok

[JamboX2]

More fool the electorate - really

 

 

They were misled and lied to and again you think that is ok

I don't think they were on the matter of his ability to be an MP. Nor on what the man was accused of.

 

At the end of the day it's a leak. This is in no way comparable to the issues of late in Dunfermline where the SNP knew the candidate had been accused of domestic abuse but still allowed him to stand and win the seat. Or of the situation in Labour in the past with guys like Eric Joyce and Mike Watson being unfit for the job.

 

As it stands, he's been accused of wrongdoing, the civil service inquiry has found him in the wrong. He's been punished and now parliament will make its decision.

 

The electorate knew all this was ongoing and still backed him to represent them.

 

My point is the people chose him despite this being known about. If Parliament finds he has done wrong and he is sanctioned for 10 days suspension then they can speak again on him. But we aren't there yet and they made the choice to have him as their MP knowing full well of what he was accused of doing.

 

In effect the electorate have misjudged their choice in knowledge of all this shady business. Had the people of Edinburgh South elected Neil Hay, then his tweets came out post-election, should he have stood down? Or another way, should he ever have stood as a candidate on that background?

Edited May 24, 2015 by JamboX2

[JAYEL]

I don't think they were on the matter of his ability to be an MP. Nor on what the man was accused of.

 

At the end of the day it's a leak. This is in no way comparable to the issues of late in Dunfermline where the SNP knew the candidate had been accused of domestic abuse but still allowed him to stand and win the seat. Or of the situation in Labour in the past with guys like Eric Joyce and Mike Watson being unfit for the job.

 

As it stands, he's been accused of wrongdoing, the civil service inquiry has found him in the wrong. He's been punished and now parliament will make its decision.

 

The electorate knew all this was ongoing and still backed him to represent them.

 

My point is the people chose him despite this being known about. If Parliament finds he has done wrong and he is sanctioned for 10 days suspension then they can speak again on him. But we aren't there yet and they made the choice to have him as their MP knowing full well of what he was accused of doing.

 

In effect the electorate have misjudged their choice in knowledge of all this shady business. Had the people of Edinburgh South elected Neil Hay, then his tweets came out post-election, should he have stood down? Or another way, should he ever have stood as a candidate on that background?

 

 

Y

Really ?

 

 

You dont care they were lied to ?

[JamboX2]

Y

Really ?

 

 

You dont care they were lied to ?

I don't think the lie is one which warrants the level of outrage being dished out here. I also don't think his constituents are in a position to cry foul as they knew this was all going on at the time they elected him.

 

If the authorities punish him they will have a vote. If they don't they won't. At that stage it's up to Carmichael to justify his position. But to say the people were misled is a bit far considering they knew he was up for investigation on this.

[JAYEL]

I don't think the lie is one which warrants the level of outrage being dished out here. I also don't think his constituents are in a position to cry foul as they knew this was all going on at the time they elected him.

 

If the authorities punish him they will have a vote. If they don't they won't. At that stage it's up to Carmichael to justify his position. But to say the people were misled is a bit far considering they knew he was up for investigation on this.

 

 

I.m out

[Psychedelicropcircle]

If it really cost 1.4m to expose something he could have been honest about weeks ago for free, Kb'ing a few grand doesn't cut it.

 

 

WERE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER

[JamboX2]

http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/why-alistair-carmichael-cant-be-recalled.html

 

Good article which puts the Observor and Independent to shame.

 

On outrage at the cost of the inquiry, let's get something straight, these costs are always accounted for. It's not like this money came from the health budget to pay for it. It's money set aside in the budget for such events. We've had equally wasteful inquiries in Scotland on a number of issues where had a minister or politician just said something straight they'd not have happened. EU advice being one.

 

Not defending him or what he done. It's just ridiculous how much outrage there is on the cost of the inquiry.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

It's 1.4 million pounds x2 it could have been used elsewhere, but a man chose to withhold the truth in an attempt to get elected first then come clean. If this is ok then go out and cost your employer money and watch wot happens to you when your found out with nowhere to hide.

[TheMaganator]

Salmond going after Mundell now.

 

Clearly wants a one party state.

 

A horrible man leading a horrible party.

[Hasselhoff]

It's 1.4 million pounds x2 it could have been used elsewhere, but a man chose to withhold the truth in an attempt to get elected first then come clean. If this is ok then go out and cost your employer money and watch wot happens to you when your found out with nowhere to hide.

Again, what is the source of the ?1.4m figure? The only people I have seen stating it have been pro independence. Is there anything official?

[Gizmo]

Totally agree with this.

 

The election has been done. The man won his seat with the accusation on him. The people will have their say on him in a few years time.

 

My worry is that leaks can actually be vital in a democracy and help shed light on things that people should know but are being denied knowledge of. To make such a deal over a political attack on one party is to make leaking seem unthinkable and the effect on whistleblowing on the back of that can be detrimental.

There was nothing vital about this leak - it was a deliberate act to smear Sturgeon and a clear indication, rightly as it turns out, that the rival parties feared her popularity.

 

The speed with which Labour seized upon this suggests they were primed. And don't think Mundell wouldn't have known what was going in, either.

 

Carmichael is finished and few will miss the fatuous arsehole. He only clings on for now because the MSM - Sunday Herald apart - are curiously mute on this affair. Strange...

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

This whole affair is incredibly decadent. No one comes out looking good. 

 

Why are and were people getting so worked up about Sturgeon preferred one party to win over another, anyway?