Stuart Lyon Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) JamboX2 - their constituency office is at least part paid for as is the staff who they employ. Many employ wives/sons/daughters or other family members so that they are part of the gravy train. Some example of what they can claim Staffing Expenditure: In its annual review published March 2012, IPSA stated that it had increased the budget limit for staffing to ?137,200 for non-London area MPs and ?144,000 for London area MPs. This money can be paid directly to staff as salaries and related costs: it is not a personal expense available to the MP. IPSA will also revise the job descriptions of MPs? staff, but pay ranges for staff remain unchanged. Constituency Office Rental Expenditure (CORE): MPs may claim for the costs of maintaining constituency offices and for the rental or hire of offices to provide surgeries. For London area MPs the annual CORE budget for 2010/11 is limited to ?12,761 and for non-London area MPs the limit is ?10,663. No expenses may be claimed for the rental of a property if the MP or a "connected party" is the owner of the property. General Administration Expenditure (GAE): MPs may claim for office equipment including initial installation and maintenance, the procurement of services and for communication costs including stationery. The annual GAE budget is limited to ?10,394. Edited May 19, 2015 by Stuart Lyon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I know it doesn't necessarily mean that. But if you were a lawyer at the top of your game who also had an interest in going into politics you'd have to take a massive pay cut to do it. It's not just the pay. It's giving away of your privacy and putting everything you do and have done under scrutiny. For ?70k? Why do people think Lawyers make or will make good politicians. They don't look at half the eejits we currently have in Westminster and they'll likely be lawyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Why do people think Lawyers make or will make good politicians. They don't look at half the eejits we currently have in Westminster and they'll likely be lawyers. It's just an example. Would you not, for example, want a top NHS doctor to become an MP though? But they'll be taking a drastic pay cut to take on the role which offers no privacy and no job security beyond the next election. What about a Head Teachers? They would make good MP's with their experience, but not for a pay cut and the associated lack of privacy and job insecurity. An experienced Army officer? Anything from Lieutenant Colonel upwards takes the pay cut, as well as no job security and associated hassles. We want MP's with experience, ability and the willingness to contribute 24/7....but these people are already in good roles, earning a lot more or equal and using their knowledge. People want rewarded so let's not get sidetracked by expecting them to do it for the 'common good' when very few of us do that in our lives either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Nookie bear is in the post-Romantic era and quite a few need to join him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Why do people think Lawyers make or will make good politicians. They don't look at half the eejits we currently have in Westminster and they'll likely be lawyers. It's just an example. Would you not, for example, want a top NHS doctor to become an MP though? But they'll be taking a drastic pay cut to take on the role which offers no privacy and no job security beyond the next election. What about a Head Teachers? They would make good MP's with their experience, but not for a pay cut and the associated lack of privacy and job insecurity. An experienced Army officer? Anything from Lieutenant Colonel upwards takes the pay cut, as well as no job security and associated hassles. We want MP's with experience, ability and the willingness to contribute 24/7....but these people are already in good roles, earning a lot more or equal and using their knowledge. People want rewarded so let's not get sidetracked by expecting them to do it for the 'common good' when very few of us do that in our lives either. This - it was just an example. There are hundreds more that could be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Nookie bear is in the post-Romantic era and quite a few need to join him. Just think we need to accept some things as facts and reality and deal with it. Some people are worth billions Some people earn waaaaay too much Some people earn waaaaay too little Some people are wasters who are content to damage themselves and expect the state to help Some people are immigrants Some people just want to got to work, earn a bit of cash and spend it on a holiday, nice tv and give a bit to charity. Everyone wants a fair crack of the whip and to be respected for what they do, either financially or in other ways. Hating them isn;t going to change a thing or get rid of them, they all (and many other people!) have to be accepted and listened to equally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 And here was me thinking that people wanted to be MPs so they could perform a public service and are not just in it for the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 As much as I agree with nookie bear about wanting people from top professions doing these jobs what about people from other backgrounds too? Why not a guy who is clever but bummed about a bit at school and ended up on a building site who's eventually moved up to run his own business, like me for example? How does a doctor or a lawyer know more about life than me? It's this view that is has to be a lawyer or a brain surgeon and then you have to pay them a million pounds to do it that winds me up. Being a professional anything doesn't mean your not an absolute throbber who shouldn't be anywhere near positions such as those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 As much as I agree with nookie bear about wanting people from top professions doing these jobs what about people from other backgrounds too? Why not a guy who is clever but bummed about a bit at school and ended up on a building site who's eventually moved up to run his own business, like me for example? How does a doctor or a lawyer know more about life than me? It's this view that is has to be a lawyer or a brain surgeon and then you have to pay them a million pounds to do it that winds me up. Being a professional anything doesn't mean your not an absolute throbber who shouldn't be anywhere near positions such as those. You're the type of MP we need. Experience of running a business and the problems that come with it. It's not just lawyers or Doctors etc but business people too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 As much as I agree with nookie bear about wanting people from top professions doing these jobs what about people from other backgrounds too? Why not a guy who is clever but bummed about a bit at school and ended up on a building site who's eventually moved up to run his own business, like me for example? How does a doctor or a lawyer know more about life than me? It's this view that is has to be a lawyer or a brain surgeon and then you have to pay them a million pounds to do it that winds me up. Being a professional anything doesn't mean your not an absolute throbber who shouldn't be anywhere near positions such as those. Absolutely, and there are many others like you...so why don't any put themselves forward, or get picked to be candidates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Why do people think Lawyers make or will make good politicians. They don't look at half the eejits we currently have in Westminster and they'll likely be lawyers. I think lawyers make really bad politicians. I fecking hate lawyers Perhaps it is them coming from a profession where the truth is optional , and at times do their utmost to AVOID you working out what is actually true, that has led to our current sad state of affairs I would vote for pretty much anyone who would answer a question with an answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 You're the type of MP we need. Experience of running a business and the problems that come with it. It's not just lawyers or Doctors etc but business people too. HOw many politicians are Doctors? Liam Fox and Pippa Whiteford When you consider the importance of the NHS that's pretty poor... How many Lawyers? Hunners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Tories considering re-branding themselves as "a party of the workers". :'> :: Edited May 19, 2015 by Cade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Tories considering re-branding themselves as "a party of the workers". :'> They are right too. Labour are about to do the same, but due to their rudderless existence cannot at present. If a party comes out to represent all who work- high paid, low paid whatever then its a shoe in. New labour managed it - Brown lost it, Ed never got the middle classes back. If you want to be elected that's who you need And you cannot tell me that someone working and paying their taxes would not vote for a party of low taxation that rewarded their efforts and let them keep more of their own dosh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) HOw many politicians are Doctors? Liam Fox and Pippa Whiteford When you consider the importance of the NHS that's pretty poor... How many Lawyers? Hunners Tories have most MPs who are former NHS workers (doctors/nurses). But it's still a very small number, less than 10 I think. Edited May 19, 2015 by jambo1185 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Tories considering re-branding themselves as "a party of the workers". :'>:" /> :'>:" /> Well, I suppose the title is up for grabs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I think lawyers make really bad politicians. I fecking hate lawyers Perhaps it is them coming from a profession where the truth is optional , and at times do their utmost to AVOID you working out what is actually true, that has led to our current sad state of affairs I would vote for pretty much anyone who would answer a question with an answer That's nonsense. Lawyers are a lot of things but the big, big no no, is lying. The type of lawyers I think you are referring to are criminal lawyers, who will usually not ask their clients if they are guilty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Tories considering re-branding themselves as "a party of the workers". :'> They are spot on too. Small c conservatism has always been about working hard and rewarding those that put in the hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 That's nonsense. Lawyers are a lot of things but the big, big no no, is lying. The type of lawyers I think you are referring to are criminal lawyers, who will usually not ask their clients if they are guilty I did not say they lied-completely omitting the truth and avoiding telling the truth if that helps- but that is pedantry, and would also not be the kind of traits I would like in a politician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Tories considering re-branding themselves as "a party of the workers". :'> Do you think all their millions of voters are millionaires? They are the party of the workers in many places: workers whose priority is self-reliance or patriotism, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I think lawyers make really bad politicians. I fecking hate lawyers Perhaps it is them coming from a profession where the truth is optional , and at times do their utmost to AVOID you working out what is actually true, that has led to our current sad state of affairs I would vote for pretty much anyone who would answer a question with an answer The duty of a defence lawyer is to put the case for the defence and not put the case for the prosecution. Anything otherwise would be a totally unacceptable state of affairs in any democratic justice system. Our system requires a prosecution case that is beyond reasonable doubt and not the truth which may never be established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieh Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Do you think all their millions of voters are millionaires? They are the party of the workers in many places: workers whose priority is self-reliance or patriotism, for example. Patriotism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The duty of a defence lawyer is to put the case for the defence and not put the case for the prosecution. Anything otherwise would be a totally unacceptable state of affairs in any democratic justice system. Our system requires a prosecution case that is beyond reasonable doubt and not the truth which may never be established. They do not put the case for the defence- they try and get the defendant acquitted. The case for the defence may be that they are guilty as feck, in which case the job for the defence should be to offer mitigation. Not attempting to have paedophiles and rapists let out on technicalities However I digress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo1185 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Absolutely, and there are many others like you...so why don't any put themselves forward, or get picked to be candidates? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23437111 http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/politics/9287782/could-you-afford-to-become-an-mp/ Both the articles might suggest why certain "types" get into politics. The second one in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychedelicropcircle Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Do you think all their millions of voters are millionaires? They are the party of the workers in many places: workers whose priority is self-reliance or patriotism, for example. . Labour supporter blowing smoke up Tory ass= better together?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23437111 http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/politics/9287782/could-you-afford-to-become-an-mp/ Both the articles might suggest why certain "types" get into politics. The second one in particular. Shouldn't stop successful businessmen getting involved though. It's the time away from making money from their businesses that stops them taking part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Problem is we al know there are MP's in safe seats doing nothing at all. Barristers working full time but also MP's and so on NO-one cares- they are just there to give their party numbers- majority makers Not many folks vote for the candidate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Patriotism Aye, ah ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Tories considering re-branding themselves as "a party of the workers". :'> They are right. Labour has lost that title many years ago. There is nothing wrong with supporting people who choose to work hard for themselves and their families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 They do not put the case for the defence- they try and get the defendant acquitted. The case for the defence may be that they are guilty as feck, in which case the job for the defence should be to offer mitigation. Not attempting to have paedophiles and rapists let out on technicalities However I digress Not wanting to hijack the thread but... For the state to take away your liberty and put you in jail they have to prove your guilt beyond all reasonable doubt. If they do not meet that standard then they cannot take away your freedom. Guilt or lack of it does not come into it - it is for the state to make their case with witnesses and evidence. If they cannot do that then they should not be able to put you in prison. Without this we are in North Korea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Not wanting to hijack the thread but... For the state to take away your liberty and put you in jail they have to prove your guilt beyond all reasonable doubt. If they do not meet that standard then they cannot take away your freedom. Guilt or lack of it does not come into it - it is for the state to make their case with witnesses and evidence. If they cannot do that then they should not be able to put you in prison. Without this we are in North Korea. Or Guantanamo Bay, via various UK airbases on an CIA black flight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 They do not put the case for the defence- they try and get the defendant acquitted. The case for the defence may be that they are guilty as feck, in which case the job for the defence should be to offer mitigation. Not attempting to have paedophiles and rapists let out on technicalities However I digress You have a weird interpretation of what a fair trial is. If someone is freed on a technicality it is not the defence that is a fault. It is one or more of the Court, the Judge and the prosecution who are responsible for the maladministration of the case to an extent that makes the conviction unsafe. And now double jeopardy is gone surely these cases can be retried if the justice system deems it prudent. Otherwise the vital presumption of innocence lies with the accused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambos are go! Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Or Guantanamo Bay, via various UK airbases on an CIA black flight And we rightly are outraged at this affront to the presumption of innocence and a fair trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 And we rightly are outraged at this affront to the presumption of innocence and a fair trial. Who is "we" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 On who makes a good representative anyone can. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, teachers, bus drivers, cafe workers, railway workers, cleaners, anyone from any background. We need more people from low paid backgrounds to give a voice to the zero hours contract generation, to the renters who can't afford a house and to those who rely on state services. These people will speak with passion on these things, not because they have to, not because their party has taken that position but because they know what it's like to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/12/meet-the-snp-class-of-2015-who-are-partys-westminster-mps Teachers, Engineers, Students, NHS consultants, Oil industry experts, Business owners, Journalists, IT experts, Surgeons, Lawyers, Film-makers, Charity workers...... Fits the bill for "normal people" representing the population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 On who makes a good representative anyone can. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, teachers, bus drivers, cafe workers, railway workers, cleaners, anyone from any background. We need more people from low paid backgrounds to give a voice to the zero hours contract generation, to the renters who can't afford a house and to those who rely on state services. These people will speak with passion on these things, not because they have to, not because their party has taken that position but because they know what it's like to be there. I suppose part of the problem is that you don't want to just have someone who will/can speak about one particular subject such as relying on state services, you need people who can contribute on all manner of subjects from economics, to defence, to media and culture, to international affairs to the welfare state etc etc And that's why it suits the sort of people who spent their teenage years immersed in politics and went on to study economics and politics and the like at university. Basically geeks who can talk confidently on a wide range of subjects as it suits their party at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/12/meet-the-snp-class-of-2015-who-are-partys-westminster-mps Teachers, Engineers, Students, NHS consultants, Oil industry experts, Business owners, Journalists, IT experts, Surgeons, Lawyers, Film-makers, Charity workers...... Fits the bill for "normal people" representing the population. All parties are represented by "normal people". It's mad to say otherwise. Most MPs have a hinterland. It's those at the top that invariably don't. It's the experiences they bring which shape the laws made and the knowledge of parliament. Scotland lost a lot of ex-miners, shipyard workers, teachers, small businessmen and women and equal rights campaigners and the like. Its wrong to argue (as some have on this thread) that politicians aren't normal or certain parties don't have normal people. It's a lazy assertion. As lazy as all are self-serving scrounges at Westminster. Parties work best as broad churches. Lawyers, bankers and teachers and bus drivers, miners and bin men, all different experiences helping to form solid policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 All parties are represented by "normal people". It's mad to say otherwise. Most MPs have a hinterland. It's those at the top that invariably don't. It's the experiences they bring which shape the laws made and the knowledge of parliament. Scotland lost a lot of ex-miners, shipyard workers, teachers, small businessmen and women and equal rights campaigners and the like. Its wrong to argue (as some have on this thread) that politicians aren't normal or certain parties don't have normal people. It's a lazy assertion. As lazy as all are self-serving scrounges at Westminster. Parties work best as broad churches. Lawyers, bankers and teachers and bus drivers, miners and bin men, all different experiences helping to form solid policy. The problems are at the top of the established parties. Cameron, Gideon and Boris all in the same club at school ffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The problems are at the top of the established parties. Cameron, Gideon and Boris all in the same club at school ffs.George went to a different school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosscoC Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 George went to a different school. Although they were all in the Bullingdon Club (at different times). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The problems are at the top of the established parties. Cameron, Gideon and Boris all in the same club at school ffs. The Ewings were private schooled. Both ministers in Scotland. The SNP have more privately educated representatives in Scotland than any other party. The background of a person doesn't matter in all honesty. It's the concentration of people like them running it and that's a valid point on the Tory government. But purely because they went to the same school doesn't matter. Harold MacMillan was arguably the most left wing Tory pm and he was an Etonian who went grouse shooting 4 times a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The problems are at the top of the established parties. Cameron, Gideon and Boris all in the same club at school ffs. Also Sturgeon, Swinney, Neil, Yousaf, Hyslop etc all are and were party officials as paid roles for years. Effectively spads. It's as narrow a background as any Miliband or Cameron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Although they were all in the Bullingdon Club (at different times).We shouldn't judge people on their backgrounds. They were teenagers when they were in that club. It's time to move on and stop being classist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 George went to a different school. Wrong again, Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosscoC Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The Ewings were private schooled. Both ministers in Scotland. The SNP have more privately educated representatives in Scotland than any other party. The background of a person doesn't matter in all honesty. It's the concentration of people like them running it and that's a valid point on the Tory government. But purely because they went to the same school doesn't matter. Harold MacMillan was arguably the most left wing Tory pm and he was an Etonian who went grouse shooting 4 times a year. Where do you get your stats on who is privately educated? And where is the evidence that someone's background does not matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Wrong again, Mags That's at university, Cads, not school Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosscoC Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 We shouldn't judge people on their backgrounds. They were teenagers when they were in that club. It's time to move on and stop being classist Who is bringing up class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Paul's Ray Bans Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 I suppose part of the problem is that you don't want to just have someone who will/can speak about one particular subject such as relying on state services, you need people who can contribute on all manner of subjects from economics, to defence, to media and culture, to international affairs to the welfare state etc etc Indeed. The skill we should value most highly in politicians and prospective politicians is, in policy areas in which they are not experts, the ability to appreciate and understand different arguments and sets of evidence, to balance these different angles off of each other, and to come to a conclusion. But alas, in the age of big party machines and tight whips, the skill of critical thinking and evaluation is less seen in politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Who is bringing up class?People that bring up their schooling at clubbing. They wouldn't do it if they went to the same local comp and played in the same football team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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