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Scottish independence and devolution superthread


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Exactly this!   I was thinking about the naysayers and then thought about WHY a movement would want to lead a nation into independence which would ultimately lead to financial ruin, expulsion from c

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So let me see if i have this right,

They had no say in bidding, labour did that,

I take it the budget was part of it, oh it doesn't make budget thats the fault of the snp, it goes a treat but that was down to the people and organiser's.

Is that right?. The only part the snp had was blowing the budget.

Aye nae bother.

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Psychedelicropcircle

More highly irrelevant stuff from a highly irrelevant paper. That Murray boy has as much chance as your mate from bath having representation of the SNP. One day they'll have a column about wot this oil price is doing to gideons continued failure to make ends meet.

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More highly irrelevant stuff from a highly irrelevant paper. That Murray boy has as much chance as your mate from bath having representation of the SNP. One day they'll have a column about wot this oil price is doing to gideons continued failure to make ends meet.

Ok - but that ignores the point. 

 

Murray is an arse - that's been established - but do you have nothing to say on the oil predictions? $74 in 2015 and $80 in 2016. You cant just slag of the newspaper because you don't like what it says.

 

 

So let me see if i have this right,

They had no say in bidding, labour did that,

I take it the budget was part of it, oh it doesn't make budget thats the fault of the snp, it goes a treat but that was down to the people and organiser's.

Is that right?. The only part the snp had was blowing the budget.

Aye nae bother.

Who did blow the budget then?

 

Perhaps it was woefully under budgeted (wouldn't surprise me) but that didn't stop your pal going on about it being under budget and celebrating the fact - when the reality is much much different. Even you, as fanboy-in-chief for Mr Salmond, must accept that?

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Ok - but that ignores the point.

 

Murray is an arse - that's been established - but do you have nothing to say on the oil predictions? $74 in 2015 and $80 in 2016. You cant just slag of the newspaper because you don't like what it says.

 

 

Who did blow the budget then?

 

Perhaps it was woefully under budgeted (wouldn't surprise me) but that didn't stop your pal going on about it being under budget and celebrating the fact - when the reality is much much different. Even you, as fanboy-in-chief for Mr Salmond, must accept that?

So hows the national debt and deficit these days in the UK ?.When was indy day again march 2016 , ill discuss oil then.

[MODEDIT]

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Psychedelicropcircle

It's hypothetical mag you can say it would have been more difficult in the negotiation but surely a formula could have fixed that. My point is they talk as if we voted yes, it appears the unionists are up for a neverendum more that the Yes supporters....it's over its now about trying to secure as much power as possible within the union....pretty sure you said in the Indy thread near federalism would kill independence stone dead.....that's my aim now.

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So hows the national debt and deficit these days in the UK ?.When was indy day again march 2016 , ill discuss oil then.

[MODEDIT]

UK national deficit is big because we were left no choice but to bail out the banks. Much like nearly every major western nation had to do in some way or another. Ireland, Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Greece were all involved in bail outs domestically or in Europe.

 

The Oil price collapse would've affected the money an independent Scottish state took in the first year and would've affected how the deficit negotiations went. It would also have impacted sterling zone talks. The UK and Bank of England would need to act to stop a run on the pound if the key industry of one of its members saw its primary money maker collapse. Unlike Russia we'd have no power in 2016 to change interest rates or the value of our currency to rebalance the economy with such a drop in the value of oil.

 

To this day, the achilles heel of independence offered was a Sterlingzone where we had less control and less influence on the economy than we do now.

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It's hypothetical mag you can say it would have been more difficult in the negotiation but surely a formula could have fixed that. My point is they talk as if we voted yes, it appears the unionists are up for a neverendum more that the Yes supporters....it's over its now about trying to secure as much power as possible within the union....pretty sure you said in the Indy thread near federalism would kill independence stone dead.....that's my aim now.

What is near federalism? How would that look? Which powers go where? What does the Union do well as a whole? What would Scotland do better? What taxes would fund Scottish government services and which UK government services?

 

There's the issue. Smith has proposed an agreed way forward. The SNP signed up to that process. They're now reneging on it and going solo.

 

Effectively, to have federalism you need a structure and balance for all parts of the UK. The devolution system is not that. That's why Smith was a botched plan. It's why the SNP can run off claiming betrayal and it's the sign that as much as yes was flawed the no side have also dropped the ball.

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What is near federalism? How would that look? Which powers go where? What does the Union do well as a whole? What would Scotland do better? What taxes would fund Scottish government services and which UK government services?

 

There's the issue. Smith has proposed an agreed way forward. The SNP signed up to that process. They're now reneging on it and going solo.

German style, would do for now jx2, until full indy.
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Ask Cyclopes he called it near home rule.

There's the problem. There's no scope to they term. Sturgeon described Home Rule as indepndence. The Liberals as federalism with shared powers. Labour going back to Keir-Hardie and the MacDonald government viewed it different still, social powers and employment powers with little tax, the Tories again view it differently.

 

Smith has provided a blue print for now. Income tax, certain economic taxes and increased control of welfare and other related powers. If the SNP want more, it can't just be down to what they want. It has to be a cross-party and cross-UK process including Wales, Northern Ireland, London and English Regions to have some form of balance and equality of power.

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this is why AS can call for an early ref even though he said it was gonna be a generation.

Why is that exactly?

 

Scotland voted No. Salmond & Sturgeon both said it was once in a generation opportunity.

 

Now they're going back on that because they lost & they don't respect democracy.

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Psychedelicropcircle

Why is that exactly?

 

Scotland voted No. Salmond & Sturgeon both said it was once in a generation opportunity.

 

Now they're going back on that because they lost & they don't respect democracy.

Near home rule= Tory trap saying one thing meaning another, tomato tumato, if the polls are to be believed lots of No voters are saying they trust the SNP to look after Scotland's interests, either that or wings has signed up to 1000s of profiles (tripper Johns belief). Imo the party that made a positive case for Scotland and continuing to do so is gaining the trust of Scottish voters the negative Labour Party are now paying a price as it looks insincere to now try and make out were the most Scottish party. They've been all at sea and I don't see change as yet.

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Near home rule= Tory trap saying one thing meaning another, tomato tumato, if the polls are to be believed lots of No voters are saying they trust the SNP to look after Scotland's interests, either that or wings has signed up to 1000s of profiles (tripper Johns belief). Imo the party that made a positive case for Scotland and continuing to do so is gaining the trust of Scottish voters the negative Labour Party are now paying a price as it looks insincere to now try and make out were the most Scottish party. They've been all at sea and I don't see change as yet.

Why are they entitled to call another referendum though?
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Psychedelicropcircle

Why are they entitled to call another referendum though?

They aren't but it's a democratic right to campaign for anything. I think it's how westminster behaves going forward from here that will decide when the next referendum is.

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They aren't but it's a democratic right to campaign for anything. I think it's how westminster behaves going forward from here that will decide when the next referendum is.

Not really.   Its the same Westminster who would have to agree to a binding referendum.  And they won't in at least a generation.   Yes supporters can beg all they want, but they had their chance, and they blew it.   Except in Weeg and Dundee, the nation decided, and told Eck to shut it.  Interesting that weeg and dundee voted Yes, and Edinburgh and Aberdeen voted No.   That, along with the polls, shows up the wealth and socio-economic factors quite clearly.

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More highly irrelevant stuff from a highly irrelevant paper. That Murray boy has as much chance as your mate from bath having representation of the SNP. One day they'll have a column about wot this oil price is doing to gideons continued failure to make ends meet.

Oil price goes from $60 in 2008 to $110 in 2010 - Tory Chancellor raises the Supplementary Tax on N Sea oil from 20% to 32%.

Oil price goes from $110 to $60 in 2014 - Tory Chancellor reduces the Supplementary Tax on N Sea oil from 32% to 30%.

 

Says it all really.

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Guest Trapper John

Not really.   Its the same Westminster who would have to agree to a binding referendum.  And they won't in at least a generation.   Yes supporters can beg all they want, but they had their chance, and they blew it.   Except in Weeg and Dundee, the nation decided, and told Eck to shut it.  Interesting that weeg and dundee voted Yes, and Edinburgh and Aberdeen voted No.   That, along with the polls, shows up the wealth and socio-economic factors quite clearly.

Says it all really. If the Yes supporters think that Westminster will offer a referendum on the same terms as before they're deluded. They'll never make that mistake again. And as you say, the Nats still blew it.

 

My advice is get used to being a part of and  living in the UK. That's never going to change. Ever.

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My advice is get used to being a part of and  living in the UK. That's never going to change. Ever.

 

 

Brilliant, hard-hitting stuff as ever, Trapper John.

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Guest Trapper John

They aren't but it's a democratic right to campaign for anything. I think it's how westminster behaves going forward from here that will decide when the next referendum is.

Dream on. 'Westminster' has learned a helluva lot more from this referendum than the Nats ever will. If you think the British state which has existed for three hundred years and has seen off all kinds of threats, will allow 1.6m people  to dictate to the other 60m you're living in a fantasy world.

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Guest Trapper John

Brilliant, hard-hitting stuff as ever, Trapper John.

He said from his But and Ben in the good old US of A.

 

You know it and I know it. Scotland will never be Independent.

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Guest Trapper John

Tripper John there are no tanks in Baghdad.

And there are not enough Yes votes in Scotland, for all the pseudo-intellectual garbage spouted on this thread where all you guys can congregate and give each other emotional support. The People spoke and they said No.

 

Democracy is a pisser.

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And there are not enough Yes votes in Scotland, for all the pseudo-intellectual garbage spouted on this thread where all you guys can congregate and give each other emotional support. The People spoke and they said No.

 

Democracy is a pisser.

A Tory-UKIP coalition and a vote to leave the EU in the EU referendum will put the question back on the table pretty quickly.

 

One does not need to be a pseudo-intellectual to realise that politics is rarely set in one default position for long.

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Guest Trapper John

A Tory-UKIP coalition and a vote to leave the EU in the EU referendum will put the question back on the table pretty quickly.

 

One does not need to be a pseudo-intellectual to realise that politics is rarely set in one default position for long.

That sums the Nats up perfectly. They want the Tories back regardless of the effect they'll have on their fellow Scots in the pipe dream of an independent Scotland being realised on the back of it. The Tories didn't give up Northern Ireland for all of thirty years of bloodshed. They won't give up Scotland either. 

 

You can flood online polls with all the SNP supporters you can find but it'll be a different story on election day.

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A Tory-UKIP coalition and a vote to leave the EU in the EU referendum will put the question back on the table pretty quickly.

 

One does not need to be a pseudo-intellectual to realise that politics is rarely set in one default position for long.

 

UKIP are on the collapse in the polls. Farage is was the most disliked leader in the UK in recent polling (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/27/first-time-voters-eu-2015-election-farage-labour). There will not be 20-30 seats for UKIP to help make them a party capable of being able to provide a coalition government. So no Tory-UKIP. Most likely is a Tory-LibDem or a Tory minority backed by Liberals and or the SNP, or the other way around with Labour in coalition with the LibDems or Labour in minority supported by the LibDems, SNP and DUP. So we can move that one to the side.

 

The only way you will get an in/out referendum is a Tory majority. And I cannot see that happening.

 

So the other way to get another referendum is an SNP majority in 2016 without a Tory backed in/out referendum in Scotland which places a second vote at the heart of it's manifesto based on either (1) Smith not being enough for them or (2) that they feel the polls are actually with them this time. 

 

The issue that people forget is Cameron and Osbourne don't want to leave the EU. They want to renegotiate membership for the UK, ie more opt-outs, and put that revised membership to the people for ratification. In effect, they want the benefits of the EU without the burdens. It's nutters like Farage that want none of it. Even Salmond was calling on a Scottish membership to have "enhanced" opt-outs for Scotland based on improving and altering those the UK has now had we voted Yes. In effect, the mainstream mood in the UK, unless you're a Labour or LibDem leader is to renegotiate membership in some shape or forma and put it to the people. The Greens, SNP, Tories and UKIP all want an EU referendum in some shape or form.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Why are Nats so convinced that Scotland would vote to stay in the EU? If the UK votes Yes in that referendum, it would put the UK on the path to Euro federalism, because Merkel will not renegotiate the terms of any treaty. Euro federalism would lead to the same restrictions on sovereignity, if not worse.

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ToadKiller Dog

Why are Nats so convinced that Scotland would vote to stay in the EU? If the UK votes Yes in that referendum, it would put the UK on the path to Euro federalism, because Merkel will not renegotiate the terms of any treaty. Euro federalism would lead to the same restrictions on sovereignity, if not worse.

Think most polls have in Scotland around 60% wanting to stay with less than 40% rest of UK .

of course majority of folk likely haven't thought to deep about the question yet .

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Psychedelicropcircle

[quote name="Trapper John" post="4608760" timestamp="141998849

 

You can flood online polls with all the SNP supporters you can find but it'll be a different story on election day.

 

Haha we were reminded throughout the indyref how the polls were accurate and to deal with it.....now the 'to wee to stupid' preachers are looking like taking a dry length in the polls it's those nasty cyber nats.

 

I'll say it again ' there are no tanks in Baghdad'

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A Tory-UKIP coalition and a vote to leave the EU in the EU referendum will put the question back on the table pretty quickly.

 

One does not need to be a pseudo-intellectual to realise that politics is rarely set in one default position for long.

Do you think this is part of the reason the SNP want to get rid of labour?

 

I think it's a bit of a myth that Scotland is much more proEU and anti trident than England. The polls don't show much of a difference.

 

IMO just a tool to peddle division by a party that knows it can only succeed through creating division.

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Unless Nationalism now has the answer to the currency question and people won't have a genuine fear of job losses they'll get hammered again.

 

Fundamentalists thinking that a swing in the polls towards the SNP means that No voters regret their decision in September and would vote differently a second time? Brilliant. Let's do it again then.

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Haha we were reminded throughout the indyref how the polls were accurate and to deal with it.....now the 'to wee to stupid' preachers are looking like taking a dry length in the polls it's those nasty cyber nats.

 

I'll say it again ' there are no tanks in Baghdad'

When are you lot going to stop this 'too wee too poor' nonsense?

 

It's a phrase coined by a nationalist, used by nationalists to smear those that dare question nationalists.

 

I see last night on Facebook a SNP councillor was urging his followers to think carefully about what taxi firm they used in the future after he 'named and shamed' a small local taxi business for driving people to polling stations for free & supporting better together. An elected official actively trying to damage a local business in his area for not agreeing with his politics. How people can vote for this deeply sinister mob is beyond me.

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When are you lot going to stop this 'too wee too poor' nonsense?

 

It's a phrase coined by a nationalist, used by nationalists to smear those that dare question nationalists.

 

I see last night on Facebook a SNP councillor was urging his followers to think carefully about what taxi firm they used in the future after he 'named and shamed' a small local taxi business for driving people to polling stations for free & supporting better together. An elected official actively trying to damage a local business in his area for not agreeing with his politics. How people can vote for this deeply sinister mob is beyond me.

Don't forget a lot of Yes voters in were swayed by the "We Hate Tory Toffs" campaign so they can also be swayed by disgraceful tactics by this SNP Councillor.     And SNP wanted a "Fairer Scotland"?   Stroll on if thats the people who would be governing us. 

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SNP are breeding a right nasty element with their "too wee too stupid" victim act. Was accused of not being proud of Scotland yesterday and that there will be another referendum soon, "mark my words". Yes stipulated it would be a lifetime before the next referendum - they should be held to it

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SNP are breeding a right nasty element with their "too wee too stupid" victim act. Was accused of not being proud of Scotland yesterday and that there will be another referendum soon, "mark my words". Yes stipulated it would be a lifetime before the next referendum - they should be held to it

 

I got called a fascist on many occasions leading up to the 18th. Sticks and Stones 

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Think most polls have in Scotland around 60% wanting to stay with less than 40% rest of UK .

of course majority of folk likely haven't thought to deep about the question yet .

Think there's mixed polling here for the UK. Most British citizens want the benefits of the EU and back free movement and trade massively. Ive seen polls which don't show that and polls saying most Brits want to stay in.

 

It's when immigration, an emotive issue for many in the south coast of England is thrown in it changes.

 

Scots aren't massively pro-EU. Social attitudes surveys show largely similar and consistent opinions between Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland on the EU. In fact the SNP MEP, Alan Smyth, didn't deny that in the campaign. He also added that the SNP, like the Tories, were opposed to 'ever closer union' and wanted to see a reform of the EU. That language is euroskeptic-light and is in line with the social attitude surveys on Scotland. I believe the White paper was very much pro-membership, but like the British position, looked to get as many opt-outs as it could from Treaties. So where's the difference?

 

Personally, I'm pro-EU. I don't believe it's right that Germany throws it's weight about with France in the Eurozone as that is becoming a massive democratic deficit for nations like Greece, Portugal, Ireland etc, but let's not kid ourself a Sterlingzone would've been any different with London and the rUK with Scotland.

Edited by JamboX2
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The EU is another example of where the SNP and Tory policy is hugely aligned, despite the formers vain attempts to say the parties have nothing in common. There's a reason the Conservatives were selected/begged to prop up the minority SNP government for four years - huge amount in common under Salmond's leadership.

 

Not so much now though as Nicola will cause a genuine shift to the left in certain areas. Already that is causing some issues in traditional affluent/rural whatever you want to call them SNP areas, but of course those aren't the votes Sturgeon wants. She will happily lose groubd and maybe a seat or two in those areas and alienate that group of core support if she is able to mop up Labour in the west.

 

Interesting times ahead for sure, especially if Salmond continues to try to steal the limelight and at some point makes the odd comment which doesn't sit with what Sturgeon is trying to achieve. It might not happen, but im not sure he can help himself.

 

Also UKIP will be lucky ti get 6 seats. The idea of a Tory/UKIP coalition is nonsense put out by a desperate Labour party.

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jack D and coke

SNP are breeding a right nasty element with their "too wee too stupid" victim act. Was accused of not being proud of Scotland yesterday and that there will be another referendum soon, "mark my words". Yes stipulated it would be a lifetime before the next referendum - they should be held to it

I got called a fascist on many occasions leading up to the 18th. Sticks and Stones

Correct.

 

I wish people wouldn't try to lump everyone in with the numpties. And I mean that from both sides.

 

There was and there is still a lot of complete brain cripples on both sides of this argument. The vast majority have dropped it and are getting on with their lives.

 

I haven't had a single conversation or heard hardly a thing in my day to day life after its done except on here.

 

Guys.......it's boring beyond ****ing belief now. Move on.....

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Correct.

I wish people wouldn't try to lump everyone in with the numpties. And I mean that from both sides.

There was and there is still a lot of complete brain cripples on both sides of this argument. The vast majority have dropped it and are getting on with their lives.

I haven't had a single conversation or heard hardly a thing in my day to day life after its done except on here.

Guys.......it's boring beyond ******* belief now. Move on.....

Actually, it's only just starting again. Watch. There'll be another referendum after 2016. Or SNP influence at the top of the UK will tar them wih the brush of insiders when they make the compromises their leadership already acknowledgenthey will.

 

As with Clegg wrongly putting constitutional reform at the heart of the LibDems in 2010 coalition talks, Sturgeon has laid the ground work to be a let down on Trident in the coming Parliament. A free vote in the Commons is the way around is deal here and there's enough outside the LibDems, Anti-Trident Labour and the SNP to renew.

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Guest Trapper John

Correct.

 

I wish people wouldn't try to lump everyone in with the numpties. And I mean that from both sides.

 

There was and there is still a lot of complete brain cripples on both sides of this argument. The vast majority have dropped it and are getting on with their lives.

 

I haven't had a single conversation or heard hardly a thing in my day to day life after its done except on here.

 

Guys.......it's boring beyond ******* belief now. Move on.....

 

For once, I agree with you.

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jack D and coke

For once, I agree with you.

[emoji1] Aye politically speaking that's not gonna happen too much I don't think John.

 

Mate I argued with everybody for what felt like a lifetime and I was all up for indy........but I said I'd accept the result and I wish a lot of other people would as well. Again both sides are guilty here let's not pretend, whether it's gloating over the oil price or saying we've been denied the vow everybody needs to give it a bloody rest.

 

The referendum became life draining enough towards the end without people still trying to score cheap points now it's over.

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Guest Trapper John

[emoji1] Aye politically speaking that's not gonna happen too much I don't think John.

 

Mate I argued with everybody for what felt like a lifetime and I was all up for indy........but I said I'd accept the result and I wish a lot of other people would as well. Again both sides are guilty here let's not pretend, whether it's gloating over the oil price or saying we've been denied the vow everybody needs to give it a bloody rest.

 

The referendum became life draining enough towards the end without people still trying to score cheap points now it's over.

It was bloody awful and thank God its over.

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Guest oldcastlerock2012

[emoji1] Aye politically speaking that's not gonna happen too much I don't think John.

 

Mate I argued with everybody for what felt like a lifetime and I was all up for indy........but I said I'd accept the result and I wish a lot of other people would as well. Again both sides are guilty here let's not pretend, whether it's gloating over the oil price or saying we've been denied the vow everybody needs to give it a bloody rest.

 

The referendum became life draining enough towards the end without people still trying to score cheap points now it's over.

I accept the result like I accept the result of a defeat to Hibs. Doesn't mean I don't want the chance to reverse the result later though.

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jack D and coke

It was bloody awful and thank God its over.

I don't think it was entirely awful myself. It was a question that had to be asked without a shadow of a doubt. We had to ask ourselves a lot of awkward questions and we got an answer and I accept it. It wasn't what I voted for but that's it over for me.

 

Granted it got bogged down towards the end but that reflects badly on the people in positions of power in these islands not the people themselves.

 

We will never know what would've happened had it went the other way now so the arguing is all a bit pointless.

 

But a pointless excercise? Not at all.

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Rand Paul's Ray Bans

IMO just a tool to peddle division by a party that knows it can only succeed through creating division.

 

Labour and Conservatives have used division tactics for years. 

 

But that's okay, I'm assuming.

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