Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Ked]

26 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

I love that gif

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Ked said:

I love that gif

👍

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, Ked said:

I love that gif

She really was a beautiful soul . 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, TallPaul said:

I'm sure big businesses will be lining up to operate in this socialist utopia you suggest.

 

Why wouldn't they? You think the UK's the only place they can make money?

 

Suggesting that a government should put the population first is hardly dreaming of a socialist utopia, unless there's some vital part of your soul missing.

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, Boof said:

 

Nah - can't be. Enzo was a complete and utter arsehole.

 

TrollPaul is just as his name suggests - a troll. And a fairly shite one, at that.

 

[periodictabledancer]

11 hours ago, Ked said:

You and Judy are entertaining.

 

 

😄

[periodictabledancer]

11 hours ago, Ked said:

Tall Paul and Judy.

 

So bitchy 😆😅

Sounds like pair of drag queens. 

[TallPaul]

Is the general election next year still a defacto referendum? Is it 50+% of the popular vote the nats are after?

[manaliveits105]

Defucto mair like 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 hours ago, TallPaul said:

Is the general election next year still a defacto referendum? Is it 50+% of the popular vote the nats are after?

Think majority of seats now.  They are now getting so desperate.

[TallPaul]

26 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Think majority of seats now.  They are now getting so desperate.

It's like the realisation that there isn't a majority for independence is setting in. I'm sure if it's looks any bleaker for them the next tactic will be postal votes for Palestinians

[TallPaul]

4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Defucto mair like 

Imagine the tears and snotters when they realise they've lost 2 once in a lifetime votes.

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

next tactic will be postal votes for Palestinians

 

[Unknown user]

You just cannot whack a morning sneer eh?

[Thunder and Lightning]

Will white voters votes count? 

[lost in space]

3 hours ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

You just cannot whack a morning sneer eh?

You also cant sneer at a morning whack.

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, lost in space said:

You also cant sneer at a morning whack.

 

Well I'll sneer to that!

[Carter]

At what point is it legitimate to consider the merits of asking the Scottish electorate whether they feel the costs of Scottish Parliament are appropriate and whether it best serves the interests of the population. 

 

If the sitting administration, who've been in situ since 2007,  are allowed to behave as though in opposition and blame everything on Westminster, should there be a referendum as to whether a devolved assembly remains the will of the Scottish people. 

 

There could be an argument for 25 years being an appropriate period of time to revisit the matter. Compared to a period of say 9 years. 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Carter said:

 

If the sitting administration, who've been in situ since 2007,  are allowed to behave as though in opposition and blame everything on Westminster, should there be a referendum as to whether a devolved assembly remains the will of the Scottish people. 

 

 

The population will get its opportunity to sack the sitting administration and replace it with a different one in less than two and a half years.  That's how elections work.

 

The population could have put the SNP out of office in 2011, 2016 and 2021, but chose not to.  At the moment, it looks like the next election will see the SNP relying on someone else to form a coalition administration, or else see them in opposition. But of course that could change between now and the election.

 

If you don't like the SNP, vote for someone else.  If not enough people are voting for someone else, join another political party and help them campaign for votes.

 

If someone wants to start a campaign to get rid of the devolved powers, let them carry on and we'll watch their progress with interest.  But do keep in mind that if that question gets opened, the entire debate about all the options gets opened, not just in Scotland but in Wales and NI too, and that's something that could backfire on the proposers.  Look what happened to David Cameron when he ran the Brexit referendum just to shut up one wing of the Conservatives, and be careful what you wish for.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Ulysses

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 hours ago, Carter said:

At what point is it legitimate to consider the merits of asking the Scottish electorate whether they feel the costs of Scottish Parliament are appropriate and whether it best serves the interests of the population. 

 

If the sitting administration, who've been in situ since 2007,  are allowed to behave as though in opposition and blame everything on Westminster, should there be a referendum as to whether a devolved assembly remains the will of the Scottish people. 

 

There could be an argument for 25 years being an appropriate period of time to revisit the matter. Compared to a period of say 9 years. 

There was a public petition at WM to hold a referendum to end devolution.  It needed 100k signatures for a debate and fell a little short.

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, Carter said:

At what point is it legitimate to consider the merits of asking the Scottish electorate whether they feel the costs of Scottish Parliament are appropriate and whether it best serves the interests of the population. 

 

If the sitting administration, who've been in situ since 2007,  are allowed to behave as though in opposition and blame everything on Westminster, should there be a referendum as to whether a devolved assembly remains the will of the Scottish people. 

 

There could be an argument for 25 years being an appropriate period of time to revisit the matter. Compared to a period of say 9 years. 

 

as we all know, Westminster is where the interests of the Scottish people are best served

[Japan Jambo]

8 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

as we all know, Westminster is where the interests of the Scottish people are best served

 

That's a bit of a Damscene conversion Smithers. 😁

[Gundermann]

4 hours ago, Carter said:

At what point is it legitimate to consider the merits of asking the Scottish electorate whether they feel the costs of Scottish Parliament are appropriate and whether it best serves the interests of the population. 

 

If the sitting administration, who've been in situ since 2007,  are allowed to behave as though in opposition and blame everything on Westminster, should there be a referendum as to whether a devolved assembly remains the will of the Scottish people. 

 

There could be an argument for 25 years being an appropriate period of time to revisit the matter. Compared to a period of say 9 years. 

 

Westminster is where the buck stops, ultimately. That's why Scotland is not considered independent yet.

 

There's also the entirely reasonable concept of questioning Tory and Labour on their own records in other parts of the Union. Welsh public services under Labour rule fare worse than here, ditto in Tory-run England. I'm broadly sympathetic to the SNP as I want Scotland to rejoin the international family of nations but i've never been a member and have voted for other parties. I also remember Tory rule from London until our parly and then Labour/Lib rule after devolution - it wasn't that great either and as I said, both these parties continue to *** up in the other nations.

[Ked]

The buck does not stop with Westminster.

The buck stops with Scotland.

This is as good as it gets.

Carter's post was how a lot feel who want full independence and those who want to hang onto the sinking ship that's the UK.

The current crop of shite was in full evident mode today on radio Scotland.

The Scottish migrant minister ....fek me man .

An open goal you'd think.

Ulysses offered a technical way to express the feeling that I think pervades Scottish view of Scottish politics that its a toy parliament.

 

And that feelings not helped by the tartan tories theyre shit.

Maybe if it actually was in control we'd get a better calibre.

To think through all this we had what we had down south.

Open goal. 

 

 

[Ked]

I understand the unionist opinion about sailing still waters.

But the boats going down. 

Does any of you dispute that?

And it's not coming back up.

 

[Ked]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

Westminster is where the buck stops, ultimately. That's why Scotland is not considered independent yet.

 

There's also the entirely reasonable concept of questioning Tory and Labour on their own records in other parts of the Union. Welsh public services under Labour rule fare worse than here, ditto in Tory-run England. I'm broadly sympathetic to the SNP as I want Scotland to rejoin the international family of nations but i've never been a member and have voted for other parties. I also remember Tory rule from London until our parly and then Labour/Lib rule after devolution - it wasn't that great either and as I said, both these parties continue to *** up in the other 

No there's not the entirely reasonable concept of questioning other parts of devolved parliaments on the basis of you promote.

Is that a "aye but but whatabout"

 

 

That shite and I'm sorry for posting aggressively is what will lose .

It's the mentality of Scotland that I want independence for.

And why I can't get my head around conservative minded Scots who don't want to run their ain job.

The case for independence is stronger now than ever.

But like every western country we have a political class that's shit.

 

What wideo poster laughed at me ranting again?

😅

 

Sorry I'm no even gonna check this

 

[Carter]

1 hour ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

as we all know, Westminster is where the interests of the Scottish people are best served

Have we witnessed the best interests of the Scottish electorate being served by the incumbent administration at Holyrood over the past 16 years? If all they do is blame Westminster then what is the point of devolution?

 

I just wondered if the passage if time made it a legitimate question to pose. After all it's only 9 years since Scottish Independence referendum and many have failed to respect that outcome and have agitated for a second referendum ever since. Whereas devolution is now a quarter of a century in our presence. 

[Carter]

.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Carter
Duplicate post

[i wish jj was my dad]

19 minutes ago, Carter said:

Have we witnessed the best interests of the Scottish electorate being served by the incumbent administration at Holyrood over the past 16 years? If all they do is blame Westminster then what is the point of devolution?

 

I just wondered if the passage if time made it a legitimate question to pose. After all it's only 9 years since Scottish Independence referendum and many have failed to respect that outcome and have agitated for a second referendum ever since. Whereas devolution is now a quarter of a century in our presence. 

I dont blame Westminster for anything but i do blame the current UKG for a lot. They havent governed in the national interest. Not even England's nevermind interest of Scotland, NI or Wales.

Scotland has been poorly served by it's elected government too mind. I'd argue that SG should have focused on competent government rather than will we / won't we pursue independence but given what has transpired since 2014 the UKG have given them every excuse for keeping the contitution on the agenda. 

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I dont blame Westminster for anything but i do blame the current UKG for a lot. They havent governed in the national interest. Not even England's nevermind interest of Scotland, NI or Wales.

Scotland has been poorly served by it's elected government too mind. I'd argue that SG should have focused on competent government rather than will we / won't we pursue independence but given what has transpired since 2014 the UKG have given them every excuse for keeping the contitution on the agenda. 

 

Holyrood isn't a government, it's just a big cooncil. It's a sop to distract the independence movement.

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 hours ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

Holyrood isn't a government, it's just a big cooncil. It's a sop to distract the independence movement.

Scotland has a legislature, judiciary and an executive. We may not have all the powers we should or the calibre of politicians to execute that power wisely but we have our own nationally elected government. 

If our government proved it could govern more effectively more powers would be granted. The nonsense in WM since 2017 created the perfect opportunity to demonstrate a better alternative.  Opportunity wasted IMO. 

[Lord Montpelier]

8 hours ago, Carter said:

Have we witnessed the best interests of the Scottish electorate being served by the incumbent administration at Holyrood over the past 16 years? If all they do is blame Westminster then what is the point of devolution?

 

I just wondered if the passage if time made it a legitimate question to pose. After all it's only 9 years since Scottish Independence referendum and many have failed to respect that outcome and have agitated for a second referendum ever since. Whereas devolution is now a quarter of a century in our presence. 

Agree. If the independence question is OK to ask then equally is whether we wish to continue with a devolved assembly, which many myself included question the value of

[manaliveits105]

Can we pull down Donald Dewars statue and throw it in the Clyde is that allowed now ?

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Scotland has a legislature, judiciary and an executive. We may not have all the powers we should or the calibre of politicians to execute that power wisely but we have our own nationally elected government. 

If our government proved it could govern more effectively more powers would be granted. The nonsense in WM since 2017 created the perfect opportunity to demonstrate a better alternative.  Opportunity wasted IMO. 

 

As I’ve repeatedly said if during the reign of arguably the worst UK Government ever you cannot show yourself in any meaningful way to be a better alternative than you really need to ask yourself what is the point. 

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Scotland has a legislature, judiciary and an executive. We may not have all the powers we should or the calibre of politicians to execute that power wisely but we have our own nationally elected government. 

If our government proved it could govern more effectively more powers would be granted. The nonsense in WM since 2017 created the perfect opportunity to demonstrate a better alternative.  Opportunity wasted IMO. 

 

Nope, it's spending housekeeping money, nothing more.

 

"If our government proved it could govern more effectively more powers would be granted" - no offence, but seriously?

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Agree. If the independence question is OK to ask then equally is whether we wish to continue with a devolved assembly, which many myself included question the value of

 

I agree, if we can't man TF up as a nation, this pretendy halfway house shite should GTF. Remove the illusion altogether and let people see how much "better" things are with Westminster let loose.

[i wish jj was my dad]

51 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

Nope, it's spending housekeeping money, nothing more.

 

"If our government proved it could govern more effectively more powers would be granted" - no offence, but seriously?

If the SNP had delivered and earned the votes it could have since 2017 even this Tory govt couldn't have stopped another referendum. I still have some faith in democracy. 

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

If the SNP had delivered and earned the votes it could have since 2017 even this Tory govt couldn't have stopped another referendum. I still have some faith in democracy. 

 

I'm trying to respectfully hold a different opinion without confrontation, but mon noo lol

[TallPaul]

2 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Agree. If the independence question is OK to ask then equally is whether we wish to continue with a devolved assembly, which many myself included question the value of

Our schools and hospitals performed better pre devolution. Scottish schools were amongst some of the best job Europe and we now trail behind England in certain areas.

[Unknown user]

14 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

If the SNP had delivered and earned the votes it could have since 2017 even this Tory govt couldn't have stopped another referendum. I still have some faith in democracy. 

 

Just now, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

I'm trying to respectfully hold a different opinion without confrontation, but mon noo lol

 

And anyway, that's a long way from "If our government proved it could govern more effectively more powers would be granted."

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

I agree, if we can't man TF up as a nation, this pretendy halfway house shite should GTF. Remove the illusion altogether and let people see how much "better" things are with Westminster let loose.

Was a fan of devolution.

 

Hasn't improved my life one bit as far as I can tell. Sure I read the other day only 6 bills have been passed this year in Holyrood, no doubt some very wishy washy lefty progressive pish. 

 

It's not made an improvement to my life. It's existence should be on the table and up for debate. 

[manaliveits105]

40 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

Our schools and hospitals performed better pre devolution. Scottish schools were amongst some of the best job Europe and we now trail behind England in certain areas.

aye but what aboot the Toaries though 😡

[Unknown user]

19 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

aye but what aboot the Toaries though 😡

 

They're self centred wankers, what about them?

[Carter]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

If the SNP had delivered and earned the votes it could have since 2017 even this Tory govt couldn't have stopped another referendum. I still have some faith in democracy. 

In many ways it's hard to know if SNP have been wilfully inept or whether it's simply incompetent governance. Their reach and influence would certainly appear to span most, if not all, areas of public life in the country. They've certainly appeared to have considerable influence in the highest reaches of Police Scotland and the judicial system. We've seen the outgoing Chief Constable meet with the outgoing FM (her with plenty left in the tank less than 30 days previous) along with then Justice Minister and yet no minute of that meeting formally exists.

 

How can Police Scotland place a moratorium on arresting suspects in a seemingly never ending live investigation until two of those due to be arrested are allowed to influence the outcome of the party leadership contest? 

 

The public are watching this unfold and therefore after 25 years it does seem a legitimate passage of time to question whether Scottish Parliament is working for the people of Scotland. There's surely something deeply uncomfortable about the manner in which the incumbent governing party are able to act and the influence they have across civic Scotland. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 hours ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

 

And anyway, that's a long way from "If our government proved it could govern more effectively more powers would be granted."

No falling out with you.  If the current incumbents were to gain another landslide or between them, SGP and Alba them secured sufficient votes c50% of the electorate then I don't see how any democratic UKG could deny another election.  

 

Delivering effective, competent government as a credible alternative to Johnson, Truss and Sunak's culture wars could have achieved that.  They tried to fight on too many fronts though.  Too long in government, too complacent.  

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Carter said:

In many ways it's hard to know if SNP have been wilfully inept or whether it's simply incompetent governance. Their reach and influence would certainly appear to span most, if not all, areas of public life in the country. They've certainly appeared to have considerable influence in the highest reaches of Police Scotland and the judicial system. We've seen the outgoing Chief Constable meet with the outgoing FM (her with plenty left in the tank less than 30 days previous) along with then Justice Minister and yet no minute of that meeting formally exists.

 

How can Police Scotland place a moratorium on arresting suspects in a seemingly never ending live investigation until two of those due to be arrested are allowed to influence the outcome of the party leadership contest? 

 

The public are watching this unfold and therefore after 25 years it does seem a legitimate passage of time to question whether Scottish Parliament is working for the people of Scotland. There's surely something deeply uncomfortable about the manner in which the incumbent governing party are able to act and the influence they have across civic Scotland. 

I'm not quite sure how to square the idea of an all powerful SNP with the concept of Fred West tents being put up in the garden of the supposed string pullers for allegations of fraud.  Something isn't right about the investigation though.  What is going on, I have no idea.

[Carter]

9 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

No falling out with you.  If the current incumbents were to gain another landslide or between them, SGP and Alba them secured sufficient votes c50% of the electorate then I don't see how any democratic UKG could deny another election.  

 

Delivering effective, competent government as a credible alternative to Johnson, Truss and Sunak's culture wars could have achieved that.  They tried to fight on too many fronts though.  Too long in government, too complacent.  

Didn't they just agitate and evaluate everything through the prism of the constitution? 

 

The progression through the devolved settlement was to achieve more comparatively than elsewhere in rUK. The state of the NHS in Scotland, the failure in Education and the attainment gap and the criminal levels of incompetence in any capital expenditure programme as seen with the Ferries is simply outrageous. That's before you evaluate the comparisons with rUK on drug deaths. 

 

It's a pretty expensive protest vehicle for the Nationalists to screech about how bad Westmonster is. 

[Carter]

12 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I'm not quite sure how to square the idea of an all powerful SNP with the concept of Fred West tents being put up in the garden of the supposed string pullers for allegations of fraud.  Something isn't right about the investigation though.  What is going on, I have no idea.

There's a period of around 30 days where Sturgeon went on BBC to be sat sneering in conversation with Kuenssberg and declare she had "plenty left in the tank" when asked if she would follow the decision made by wokey Ardern, which she emphatically denied, and her ultimate resignation which appear very unusual. What was the purpose of Livingstone meeting Sturgeon and Brown and why was it not documented? 

 

Why did Police Scotland stand back and allow the inauguration of the 'continuity candidate' before they started arresting people. 

 

There's going to be many questions to answer if this Branchform investigation is made to go away. 

 

Roles of Chief Constable and Lord Advocate have become particularly politicised since these rogues took office. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Carter

[TallPaul]

27 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

No falling out with you.  If the current incumbents were to gain another landslide or between them, SGP and Alba them secured sufficient votes c50% of the electorate then I don't see how any democratic UKG could deny another election.  

 

Delivering effective, competent government as a credible alternative to Johnson, Truss and Sunak's culture wars could have achieved that.  They tried to fight on too many fronts though.  Too long in government, too complacent.  

There's absolutely no chance they would get 50% of the popular vote. Even at they height of their popularity the SNP couldn't manage it

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Carter said:

There's a period of around 30 days where Sturgeon went on BBC to be sat sneering in conversation with Kuenssberg and declare she had "plenty left in the tank" when asked if she would follow the decision made by wokey Ardern, which she emphatically denied, and her ultimate resignation which appear very unusual. What was the purpose of Livingstone meeting Sturgeon and Brown and why was it not documented? 

 

Why did Police Scotland stand back and allow the inauguration of the 'continuity candidate' before they started arresting people. 

 

There's going to be many questions to answer if this Branchform investigation is made to go away. 

 

Roles of Chief Constable and Lord Advocate have become particularly politicised since these rogues took office. 

 

 

Culture Wars Carter on the front line!